He has also set a boundary that will hold true the rest of our lives. If I ever start up with OM again he will divorce me in a second. And he means it.

I would not hesitate. The reason is that when a man goes thru this ordeal everything is lost (manhood-esteem, conventional self-esteem, trust, hope, innocence, pride, beautiful memories, ect).

For several weeks I was basically almost dead; there is no need to describe the agony.

If Myrta does gets it on with the OM again she would basically be telling me: "Hey Stan I AM A MONSTER and I don't give a S--t about you!" So in a sense it would be a very easy decision. I can see your H's point. Why would anyone want to be married to a MONSTER like that?

However, I would still keep the affair a secret to protect my children and to save face in front of our families. I would not want Myrta to be judged by others because I know she has a good heart. I wold also make sure she is taken care in a fair manner in divorce proceedings.

It would be a devastating blow for me, but the decision would be quite simple. I will search for your post!

CIAO!

Oops, double post

<small>[ September 26, 2004, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

well guys I see you have been busy arguing on board a little bit, whoops sorry, as my w says its not an argument its a difference of opinion & I'm wrong! CAn I tell you are REALY m or what.
LOL

I think I have only one bit of advice Stan, STOP bringing up the A so often every day, how about you & Myrta setting a time that you will discuss it for a set period & no longer if you want to discuss an issue.
Yeah I know it seems like you have a different question every 10 mins or so & yes I do find it hard to shut up myself, but I do. Well most times. MY W will probably take Myrta side here & say the same thing, I bring it up too often. But I'm trying.

Myrta, please give Stan some space with the questions, I know its much the same over & over again but we guys seems to need that.
My w says the much the same thing as you do that she can see the pain & hurt in my eyes when I look at her. But it's not only that or the loss of trust, I mean that is just so big its very hard to actually put in words how it effects a bloke, at least for me anyway, no its also a loss or betrayal or ... not really sure of the right word to use here ,, of what we define ourselves as, because for me a large part of me was, hopefully is, my wife, our m, our life together. Stanley I think is much the same...and we want it back, but not with the old mistakes.
But we doubt Myrta, we doubt the love, the commitment, that we are only second best, the poorer choice, we doubt our wives wont hurt us again, we doubt no contact, just everything.
So I suppose thats why we drive you wives crazy with those questions over & over. But knowing you will answer helps so much.

Well guys keep at it, your'e getting there I think bit by bit. My best wishes.

Myrta and Stanley -

I hope you are taking a break and spending some quality time together. Hope you are not arguing all weekend. Life is too short.

JL:

I forgot to thank you for your magnificent post of
Sept 24, the one that goes----

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Myrta,
You asked a few things I thought I would answer by using your H’s words. This will be a long post but unfortunately I am on a limited time schedule today. So please excuse my jumping around. You asked </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The accuracy in describing how i feel was uncanny. I hope Myrta reads your post more than once. It really tells the story regarding where I am as a man.

When I got home that day (Friday) I could tell Myrta was a little bit down------ undoubtedly it was your post. I guess she hates to face the fact that she has hurt me. In her foggy mind at the time of the A she was 100% sure she was not hurting me. She has said little this weekend and today we have not mentioned anything about the A as per the recommendation of Aussie, Believer, and others. It is still very difficult for Myrta to talk. It is going to take a lot of time and I know I can become desperate when something is eating away at my soul.

Thank you for saying I can still be special for Myrta. BTW, Myrta gave me a ton of examples that make our relationship unique and these things were not shared with the OM. She was sort of mad as she gave me the examples, but she did anyway.

I only wish she could open her bare soul and let it all out, but that is not her way-------- she is different.

<small>[ September 26, 2004, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Stanley,

Thank you for the thank you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But, you must understand one only has to read here for...over half a decade EGAD, and you will KNOW how people feel on both sides of this. It is amazing how articulate people are in these posts.

I was going to post something to Myrta today and it was sort of heavy, but NOT BAD Myrta. I think since she is sort of down, I'll save it until later.

Stanley, let me ask you something. What have you learned so far? I mean with regard to marriage and relationships. What would you like the future to be with Myrta and how would it go? What would you do differently than you did before?

I am asking you this because although you are focusing on the OM, which is very normal, there are lessons to be learned, changes to be made, trust to rebuild, so many projects. So what is YOUR priority on this projects. Let's not worry about Myrta for a moment, or the OM, other than to use him as a TOOL for this exercise.

It is time your perspective began its change. You have focused on OM, and Myrta with OM, but now it is time for the focus to start to shift, gently, but steadily toward the "learning" aspect of this stuff. It is time to really study your relationship with Myrta over all of these years and see if there is something that can be changed.

You still have healing to do, but you will begin to see and sense it more in the months to come. Myrta will as well.

So consider my questions and think about it. I think it will help you and maybe produce some profound insights on your part.

God Bless,

JL

What have you learned so far? I mean with regard to marriage and relationships. What would you like the future to be with Myrta and how would it go? What would you do differently than you did before?

JL:

Thanks for being such a spectacular person with a degree in physics, no less. Folks with degrees in physics tend to provide the most interesting conversation in parties.

I will try to list what I have learned:

1. That I always loved Myrta from the bottom of my heart even though at times she was very unsure of my love. This doubt has its origin in how we met. I was a very confident 17 year-old and she was a 13-14 year old girl who was never praised or given encouragement at home. She was not sure of her abilities, but at the same time had a strong will. If you read her posts she has mentioned the age difference which in the teen years was huge (3.7 years). At one point I was already in 1st year grad school while she was still in high school. I think she felt undeserving of the relationship (I don't want to sound conceited). At one time she could not see why I wanted to marry her.

Myrta’s opening theme for discussion for the OM was that she felt less than me in the marriage. Since we had five children Myrta was mostly a housewife and could not follow a professional career. I get the feeling the OM told hMyrta it was my fault she did not get an advanced professional degree. However, Myrta wanted the kids, more so than me. So I failed in that Myrta never outgrew her feelings from adolescence. I thought I was doing pretty well since I basically gave her 100% of the power regarding money, decisions, purchasing, ect. I never told her what to do as she had a more dominant or controlling personality than me. I used to joke with my friends by saying Myrta was the boss and I really meant that. However, I failed, she needed something else. I didn’t listen to her.

I know it is probably unusual for a grad school student to have such a young GF, but after trying to break up from her for three months I knew she was the one for me.

2. I think I also failed in the attention to EN department, however, I had improved that aspect quiet a bit. I have to let you know that Myrta once took a part-time job about 15 years ago when our 1st four kids were in school full time. Way back them I went through a period where I was very disinterested in Myrta and she COMPLAINED bitterly every day that I was not romantic or attentive with her. She befriended a coworker and they started to have lunch a lot. Myrta told me about her lunch friend and was very mad when I said I didn’t care. In any event she eventually told me she liked her lunch friend and I eventually got out of my fog. Myrta stopped these lunches on her own, however, retrospectively we could call this a mini-EA that lasted a few weeks. In any event I learned my lesson and markedly improved my skills regarding attention to EN. I don’ think I was doing that bad when Myrta started the relationship with OM. At the time Myrta was a different person with stress at home and with the curiosity of having another sex partner before going to her grave. She had also become more liberal in her views.


3. My main goal regarding Myrta is to get her out of the fog for good. I know she is still quite foggy and I have to deal with the issue of being compared. I need to at one point deal with the A and feel NO pain at all. I think I am slowly getting there. I also need to make Myrta feel VERY SECURE of her role in the marriage. I need to pay lots of attention, but in a more intense way. I think I was paying attention before, but it did not seem very intense. Obviously I cannot take Myrta for granted, however, she was guilty of the same sin----- she took me for granted big time. I guess that means that she has grown more confident in the marriage.

I think the key is attention to detail and to maintain the intensity. A missing ingredient has been conversation in a more close and emotional manner. She and the OM always mention these so-called conversations. I think we need a lot of honesty and to review our days every evening. We have fallen into a bad routine of not saying everything. And lastly I need to regain my trust in Myrta------ that is going to be a tough one because Myrta keeps her poker cards very close to the chest.

<small>[ September 27, 2004, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Let's not worry about Myrta for a moment, or the OM, other than to use him as a TOOL for this exercise.

Oops, I guess I included too much Myrta in my wishes for the future.

OK, here it goes:

I wish I could regain what I lost. Aussie said it quite well in his recent post. A huge part of who I was as a man was my wife. Simply knowing that my wife was 100% with me was a very gratifying experience that I took for granted. The content of my character as a man had to do with having a loving wife who was behind me-------- someone I could trust blindly. That is lost and it will be difficult to recover. I really want that back------- I really miss those feelings. Not been able to trust is extremely painful and having to question Myrta’s words is hell! Not knowing where her mind is and whether she will weaken again and break NC. Will this ever go away?

Myrta makes it hard on me because she is naturally a quiet person (at least with me she always was). In many of her affair emails Myrta talked about a side of her personality only known to the OM. A side of her personality that I knew nothing about. I want to know that Myrta, but I am not having much success!

Does that make sense?

Stanley - Well I sent Aussie over to Pep's thread "What a Woman Wants" on general questions. Now I'm sending you. Please read the whole thing.

A hesitant man is the last thing in the world a woman needs.
She needs a lover and a warrior, not a 'really nice guy'.
Her worst fears is --- 'I will never be really loved, never really be fought for'.
I realized that I had, like so many men, married for safety. I married a woman I thought would never challenge me as a man. I wanted to look like the knight, but I didn't want to bleed like one.
The number one problem between men and their women is that we men, when asked to truely fight for her ... hesitate. We are still seeking to save ourselves, we have forgotten the deep pleasure of spilling our life for another.
There is something mythic in the way that a man is with a woman. Our sexuality offers a parable of amazing depth when it comes to being masculine and feminine. The man comes to offer his strength and the woman invites the man into herself, an act that requires courage and vulnerability and selflessness for both of them. Notice first that if the man will not rise to the occasion, nothing will happen. He must move, his strength must swell before he can enter her. But neither will the love consummate unless the woman opens herself in stunning vulnerability. When both are living as they were meant to live, the man enters the woman and offers her his strength. He spills himself there, in her, for her, she draws him in, embraces and envelops him. When all is over, he is spent, but ah, what a sweet death it is.

Believer this stuff is very depressing (for me). How do I compete with that? Game over! If this is the case I lost the fight!

Is that what women want? I certainly don't fight that hard. For example I don't fight for a married woman.

Sounds like a silly romantic novel with the damisel in the distrees being rescue by the knight! I am more than willing to rescue, but I also want a strong woman.

SL-BELIEVER-KIWIJ-

Thank you all for all your posts to OUR problem. I really appreciate all the input and efforts to try to help us and advise us in the best way.
I haven't post in the last couple of days, because some of the posts have been kinda of depressing.
My husband and I did not start our weekend too well, fights, anger, resentment,etc. Yesterday was not so bad, I felt very close to him, we went to church,lunch,etc.
This morning, he looked down ,depressed, and it really,really hurts me to see him like that. But I am afraid I dont know what to do, to be strong and "there" for him. I do, what I can, I offer him what I can, I talk to him when I feel trusting enough and strong enough to do it. But yet.....he says that I am not there for him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
I think he wantss OUT of this marriage, he sees US with no hope. He sees everything impossible, regaining my trust,our intimacy,our life,our closseness. Sometimes I feel cornered and desesperate. ON Saturday night I almost left the house, to go and stay in a hotel, because we were fighting so much, that I did not know what to do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
See, his life, childhood,school years,college,medical school, everything, EVERYTHING in his life has always being PERFECT. Our marriage was perfect for him, he is used to perfection, no flaws in his life. Now he sees this (A) as something horrible , a no win situation, that he does not know how to handle, I am afraid it is too much for him.
I do love my husband, I do want to keep my marriage, my life, I do want his trust back, everything that he thinks we had lost I WANT BACK!!!
But, I dont know if that is going to be possible!!!
Myrta <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Myrta:

I am always optimistic despite ups and downs in my mood. I have NO PLANS for divorce or separation. I have said this to you a million times.

I have also said that my recovery is highly dependent on you----------- and you find this an overwhelming task. You have said this many times before.

I wish I could heal by talking to someone else, but as of now I HAVE NO ONE ELSE. I think everything will turn out fine, I just want to feel normal again and not having to look past my shoulder all the time.

I need to trust again and only you can help me. I can read a thousand books or post here for five years and it will not do a thing. I am not sure how it is done, but one day I will trust you again and it will be because of your actions. I am not sure what those actions are, but eventually they will come. I don't hink is that hard Myrta--- once you are not foggy anymore it will be easy.

The problem is that after D-day you have been serving two masters (obviously an idiomatic expression). Despite your great desire to help me you also wanted to help OM. It is very important for you not to lose face with OM even if you plan not to reunite again. You don't want to hurt the OM's feelings and you feel protective. This is a conflict of interest Myrta and it will not allow you to be yourself. That is why you are unable to open up. Don't worry, I am more tha willing to wait this out.

I LOVE YOU!!!

Myrta,

I have sooo much to say to you. One thing I do wish is that you two were in counseling because I think there are some issues deep down that need to be addressed.

Let me start with the "perfection" thing. I think you are doing your H a great disservice here, and it comes from a HUGE LOVE BUSTER. This LB, comes in the form of a Disrespectful Judgement, DJ. And it is subtle such that neither of you really see it but it seems to me it has caused huge problems.

You think your H wants to be "perfect" and given his profession I am not surprised he is that way. You would not want to go into a hospital and have someone sort of "wing it" would you. It has been my experience that the Medical sorts tend to be that way. It is a good thing.

However, here is where the DJ comes in. You assume that because he has a preference for perfection in things and the things he does, that he thinks he is perfect, or that he IS perfect. He has told you many times he is not. He craves for you to see him as a human being with frailities and needs only YOU can fill.

Let me continue this speculation a bit further. I sense from what you and your H say, that you sort of "run" things in your household. He has mentioned some of the more "exciting" aspects of your sex life where in "fantasy" other people are brought in.

Reflect on that, why do you like the role you play? What motivates you to enjoy humiliating him, if only in fantasy? Let me offer you something to think about and talk about. It is your response to your feelings of inferiority and his preceived "perfection".. He may like if for several reasons but I would guess he likes this because YOU enjoy it so much.

But, the point of this is look at the roles you two take. He is not perfect in that role is he? You are not below him your role are you?

Further let's consider your interactions with OM. Again, I can only surmise from what has been posted here, but let me take this thought a bit further. With your H you are defensive, you don't really open up, and he feels sort of left out. He is guessing but he feels you were much more open with OM, you were NOT defensive, and you allowed OM in. Why?

MY GUESS, and it is only a guess for your consideration, is that your DJ, as made you afraid for you to allow your H to see you, and even know you. Because of your DJ, you feel he is superior and would NOT accept a flawed you. Yet, he clearly wants to be seen and feels he is NOT superior to you. He has done something that many women don't appreciate so let me explain this from my point of view.

My wife handles all of our finances. I have not seen the check book in years. Why? Is it because I cannot, no it is not. I am extremely good with numbers, and with money and finances. Further, I have/had a more male view of things that bringing in the money was MY job, and that my value to the family was the money I brought in. Hence I wanted or sure desire control of it. I let my W have control of it, because she is also very competent, but as a sign that we are married and that I have given up control of the one thing that defines me.

It was a statement of trust, of love, and a release of control to her by me.

Please talk to Stanley about this. You may not appreciate what he did and why.

Your H is and has tried over the years to show you he trusted you, valued you, and respected you. He gave you control of something that sort of defines him. He wants to be seen as your partner,as the man that fell in love with you, and wants you to love him, not because he is perfect, but because he is just him.

Do you see what I am talking about? I hope so. It is clear from what he says that he does NOT want to lose you or divorce you. It is clear that he wants to KNOW you like he never has before. But, the issues is less about the A Myrta, than it is that via the A, you have shown your H a part of you he did not know about, you treated the OM in many ways as he wished to be treated. You opened up to OM, and you were willing to risk a lot to be with him, but your H senses you will NOT risk anything for him.

Do you see the quandry? I asked him what he learned from this and all of his answers were about his failures, NOT yours. What he did mention about you, is that you seemed to him to be better with the OM with regard to openness and talking. Not that you were bad, not that you were evil. No, he wants you to be his W now, and in the future.

What needs to be addressed is the DJ that I mentioned earlier. Why it is in your life, and the affects it has had on you and your decisions, and on him.

Myrta, I don't know the answer to this, but I think some of his despair is he feels you will defend the OM, but you wont't defend him. My question to you is this because you feel the OM is so flawed that he needs defending, and that your H is so strong and perfect that he does not? I would really like you to think about this.

Further, I would really like you to "talk" not argue, not defend, not blame about what I have speculated about. If some insight comes from this, then decide how you TWO, TOGETHER, will address this. Myrta, I sense he wants his W (YOU) to be his partner. He wants to share, he wants you happy, and he also wants what was lost.

Some of what you lost when you made these decisions will NOT ever come back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> It is a sad thing. However, I have seen here many cases that while the loses where great, the gains compensated. If you can learn to open up to him, if you can learn to see him as he is, not on a pedestal, he will learn to trust again.

Myrta, there is lots to say, but please realize that most here, including myself, believe that your marriage will make it, if only you two will see each other clearly. Time to step up to this Myrta, and I think you will be amazed at the many changes you will experience in your marriage.

It takes time and patience, so go slow, but think and talk to Stanley and we will encourage him to do the same with you.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Myrta have you noticed when you pull back and become defensive, your H then asks more and more of you? Have you considered that if you did NOT pull back, that you would get through this faster?

JUST LEARNING- <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
I dont mean to do a disservice to my husband by saying here that he is perfect. I do admire that in him, I always had, even if I felt I was not enough for him. I always pride myself with my family and friends that my husband was so flawless.
I dont think I do defend the OM like he says and you say here. I just feel like if he says something that is not true about him, I should tell him. I know the OM has many flaws compared to my husband. He was unfaithful to his wife before, he is short-tempered,, he slaves his employees,and so on. I know very well, what kind of man he is. I know by far my Husband comes out the better man, the winner in anyones eyes.
About me hummiliating my husband in bed, that isnot the case. He was the one that brought that fantasy originally to our intimate life. Not me!!! He likes that, he gets really into it, when he imagines me with someone else. He has been saying this to me for YEARS!!!! Of coursse, if you see someone responding to you so wildly with some words, you get into it, and you will enjoy it too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Where do you live? Maybe you can be our Marriage counselor!!! We tried one before, at the beginning of DD but she was very mediocre, wasting our time and money (150 dollars)for 45 minutes. She did not offered any kind of solution or plan, she just sat there and let my husband talk, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
I think I had told my husband most of what happened between me and the OM. I compare myself with other people here, and I think I have done a lot of talking, despite my husband's complaining that I dont talk enough!
Myrta

JL:

Thanks your post.

Actually Myrta has often rubbed in my face the so called perfection issue in a manner that has nothing to do with admiration-------- At times it almost sounds like resentment. Before this discussion today you can see Myrta talked about this issue a few times before. Over the years we have discussed this issue; this is nothing new. Years ago when Myrta told me she had no clue as to why I wanted to marry her I was flabbergasted. I simply felt she was the best woman I have known and loved her. It was so simple in my mind and I was always happy with her and never demanded more.

In her post Myrta simply says that all these statements are an expression of admiration, however this was not always the case.

The OM was a Dumsel in distress and this was invigorating to Myrta. As to why they shared so much in common is a mystery to me, but soon afterwards they saw themselves as soul-mates which is the hallmark of folks who are involved in affairs. The concept that I was the perfect one and Myrta was below me in the marriage was the concept that the OM used to court Myrta. The OM was different and he constantly proposed that he REALLY valued Myrta whereas I did not. After a while Myrta believed this and the history of our marriage was re-written with the supervision of OM. I am still trying to undo this revision of marital history and I often catch Myrta using phrases that she learned from the OM.

Myrta assumes that talking simply means the description of the affair. She has done an OK job with that, however, she is unwilling to talk about other issues such as the one you so well described in your post.

Regarding the fantasy:

This is something that developed over many years and it was Myrta who requested something like that------------------------- and I came up with the idea of a dominatrix female who was very promiscuous. BTW, not an uncommon fantasy among couples. Myrta enjoyed this role quite a bit and we both got turned on a lot. I did enjoy the concept that she was fully in control of everything and she admits she greatly enjoys to be in control in bed. She is not passive, that is for sure. She likes to give pleasure to a greater degree than to receive pleasure. Who would not want a wife like that? Was this fantasy a reason to have an affair? Only Myrta knows the answer!


The other issue is the fog that has kept Myrta from opening.

<small>[ September 27, 2004, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Dear Myrta

something you just posted sent the blood rushing and my eyes go hard looking, ...OM !!! His name or reference to him makes me want to reach my hands out grab him and do nasty commando things to him with a blunt knife..... especially if anything good is even inferred let alone said!!!

I hate it, I loath it when my w says something like hes not at fault its me.... great big load of bulls**t... yes he IS to blame just as she is & if he had any saving grace he would not have seduced or allowed himself to be seduced by a M woman in the first place.

There is still a place, I think within you Myrta and in my wife, where even knowing now all the cheap ugly things about the OM, you still want to keep a little bit of him inviolate.
Maybe its something to do with the choices you made at the time, perhaps now even though acknowledging that the choice to cheat was WRONG big time & with all that such a bad choice carries, still if it was a place where you were not M anymore & didn't have such commitment issues elsewhere, then the OM would not have been a such a bad choice for a partner. Just my own wondering thought here.

I think we BS, men especially carry that thought or similar and it really hurts. We feel we are and have been compared to his OM and need to know we ARE BETTER IN YOUR EYES. When you defend the OM even by inference it hurts big time.
Maybe, while you still feel this spark of whatever it is for or of the OM, you can simply say something like, 'I understand why you feel that way' if something has to be said.

Plus I do feel we guys sometimes are subconciously testing the waters so to speak about how you feel about the OM really.

Myrta and Stanley,

First, I want to say, my speculation as to the pedestal issue is NOT so much about Myrta having the affair, but on talking about the other issues.

Stanley, the question about the fantasy was not that it was bad, but that it suggested that things had permeated deeper than either of you realized. That was the point. From my point of view more power to the both of you if this works. Heck I am envious. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

However, if OM is being used in this fantasy, then Myrta, you cannot complain that Stanley talks and worries about OM as using OM as part of a fantasy reintroduces OM into your lives. I cannot imagine that is a good thing.

I think you, Stanley, stated what I wanted to state, the details of the A are not the subject of what concerns me.

What concerns me is that Myrta has felt she was not loved and appreciated, although according to STanely she was. Myrta you also keep coming back to the "your not good enough" stuff, and that worries me. You clearly are Good enough, and in fact better than that, and your H agrees. But, you do defend, when there is nothing to defend.

I sense from Stanley, that you two are talking at cross purposes here. He means one thing and you hear something else. Have either of you tried "active listening". Here is how it works.

Let's say Stanley says or asks something. Myrta, what you are supposed to do, is not respond but think about what the question is, and repeat what you think you heard as the question and what sort of answer Stanley wants. If it is not exactly what Stanley meant, he needs to repeat the question but discuss more about it, UNTIL you agree to the question.

When you answer, the process reverses and he has to listen to your answer, think about it, and then repeat to you what he thinks he heard for an answer. If it does not agree with what you felt you said Myrta, then you repeat the answer and clarify where you can. The process repeats until his comprehension of the answer matches what you meant to say.

I really think this might help you two. Everyone hears things through their own filters, but sometimes the filters are so strong, due to emotional situations, or things in the far past, that the important information is NOT getting through or is compromised when it does.

Myrta and STanely I think this is happening to you. It is not a big deal two stop it. Then Myrta you know what you are defending against. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> And Stanely, you know what you are getting through to her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Does this make sense? I would really like you two to discuss this issue of the DJ I mentioned. I may be wrong but I think it has penetrated deeply into your marriage in ways neither of you see or saw. It is not as much about the A, as it is to address how you two interact with one another, why messages are not received by one or the other, and then figuring out how to get the messages through.

You want to know what is funny? Look at the last few posts. Notice how your topics overlap but they don't really address the other persons? Notice how you two seem to misunderstanding one another or not listening (you make your pick on that one)?

I will repeat, if you two can develop your communications to a higher level, the issue of the A will become moot. Yes, damage was done, yes trust was betrayed, but yes there were important things learned, and the increased communications will lead to a better and deeper interaction between you two making a new A on the part of either of you very unlikely.

Personally, that is where I think this thing needs to head. Mistakes of the past used as learning tools to make the future better. It is not about blame, or fault, it is about progress.

Now I know it is easier for me to sit here and say this because I am not in the middle, but I do think you two love each other deeply, and I think your recovery as most are, is being hindered by communications or should I say miscommunications issues.

Could you please think about this and discuss it?
Myrta I think you fear his and your pain too much and therefore are protecting?
Stanley, I think you fear that this will somehow not be made right. To this I say, don't worry about it, the event was wrong and cannot be made right, but you will be compensated handsomly if Myrta starts to see things just slightly differently. Her smile alone will be a big downpayment on that compensation won't it?

You see just as little things are lost, so are little things gained. It is a "baby step" process, but those steps can be meaningful. So it is time for you to take the other one's in hand and lead them into a better marriage. You two can do this.

God Bless,

JL

Well now that we are getting into the fantasy stuff, my WH and I always had fantasies of him with other women. When it happened for real, it kinda ruined the fantasy.

Anyway, time to contact the Harleys. You both are so close to getting you through this. I met they can help you even with only one session.

JL said:

the details of the A are not the subject of what concerns me.

What concerns me is that Myrta has felt she was not loved and appreciated, although according to Stanley she was. Myrta you also keep coming back to the "your not good enough" stuff, and that worries me. You clearly are Good enough, and in fact better than that, and your H agrees. But, you do defend, when there is nothing to defend.

Myrta sometimes thinks I want a play by play. No!------------ I want a description of how she got there.

Here is the quote that Believer asked me to read

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
“The man comes to offer his strength and the woman invites the man into herself, an act that requires courage and vulnerability and selflessness for both of them. Notice first that if the man will not rise to the occasion, nothing will happen. He must move, his strength must swell before he can enter her. But neither will the love consummate unless the woman opens herself in stunning vulnerability.”</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How come this OM was the one? What did he do? What were those conversations? How does Myrta who supposedly loves her husband gets to that point? What is the technique? Help me, I am not an OM, I don’t know the tools of the trade. How come I couldn’t get that for so long?

BTW, Myrta still thinks I don't love her!!!!!!!!!!!

I sense from Stanley, that you two are talking at cross purposes here. He means one thing and you hear something else. Have either of you tried "active listening".

Yep, we are both guilty of that. I am probably worse than her and only focus on the negative. My wife has told me about this before.

Does this make sense? I would really like you two to discuss this issue of the DJ I mentioned. I may be wrong but I think it has penetrated deeply into your marriage in ways neither of you see or saw. It is not as much about the A, as it is to address how you two interact with one another, why messages are not received by one or the other, and then figuring out how to get the messages through.


Myrta said something on D-day that I will never forget------------ She said:

“One of the few things I felt good about myself was that I had only slept with you and no one else. Now that is gone! Now you will think very little of me!” I think this issue may have caused the infidelity. I know there is a syndrome quite common among some humans who at some point start to dislike those who are good to them.

your recovery as most are, is being hindered by communications or should I say miscommunications issues.

YES!

However, if OM is being used in this fantasy

Myrta likes to push the envelope and in a sense this really raises the eroticism. Much more so for her than for m, that is for sure. I have witnessed this, particularly the very 1st time it was done. In turn I get stimulated if she is aroused. This also numbs my negative feelings about the recurrent movies. It also helps that I don’t consider the OM competition--------- this man is not a threat. Nevertheless it may perpetuate Myrta’s withdrawal.

There is also a HUGE difference between reality and fantasy. I always knew that and had expressed this concept to Myrta many times, however, maybe I did not communicate it very well.

Notice how you two seem to misunderstanding one another or not listening (you make your pick on that one)?


Myrta’s posts always take me by surprise and she focus on things that I don’t expect.

Myrta I think you fear his and your pain too much and therefore are protecting?

This is correct! One way of protecting is to joke about it, to use it as a sex tool, and to simply not talk about it. We have done all three!


Stanley, I think you fear that this will somehow not be made right.

Yep, I worry about losing Myrta because she will eventually try to hook up with the OM. Like I said above, I don’t fear OM and don’t see him as a threat. I don’t think Myrta would want him as a husband. However, at some point Myrta could fall into Affair mode if we don’t do our homework. In that instance it would be like Myrta putting a gun to my head an telling me: “You have to divorce me!” I don’t want to do it, but if Myrta if gets real foggy again she may force my hand. Some of the things Myrta did are very outrageous, so I know what the Affair fog can do.

Stanley,

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How come this OM was the one? What did he do? What were those conversations? How does Myrta who supposedly loves her husband gets to that point? What is the technique? Help me, I am not an OM, I don’t know the tools of the trade. How come I couldn’t get that for so long? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stanley it was you too. I know during the affair it may not have been, but since it was you, and before it was as well. You know how to get that. It just hurts that someone else did as well.

Here is the part YOU have to deal with and it comes down to the "special" issue again. During her affair the only thing "special" to Myrta was the OM, but before and after that is not true.

Further, if you do forgive her, if you do hang in there and make the marriage better, if you do succeed in showing her and having her believe that you love her, then my man, you will be "special" as few are. You have quite a challenge ahead of your, and that is why Harley developed plan A and then b. B was there to preserve love, because he knew/knows that recovery is very hard and it takes a deep strong love to get through it especially if you are successful in making the marriage even better.

Stanley, that is "special" and I think even Myrta might agree with that statement.

You are going to have to carry the heavy load for awhile, even if you don't feel you have the strength. I believe I posted SKM's chronicles, please read them. they will give you an idea of what is ahead.

This is tough stuff Stanley, but you can do it. I really hope that you and Myrta decide to try the "active" listening approach for awhile. It will open your eyes and her eyes.

Hang in there Stanley, you can do this.

God Bless,

JL