Myrta - what I am going to say will probably make no sense to you if you are not a Christian, but it's true nonetheless.

"If you love me, obey my commands."

God does not want your obedience on YOUR terms, He wants it on His terms. He commands, you obey whether you "feel like it" or not, whether you are "ready or not." God is Sovereign, we are bought and paid for by the blood of Christ.

But again, believer or not, where do you find the "mischief" or "harm" in obeying what God has said. At the very least, the "obedience" has positive, not negative, effects.

So what do you risk by continued stubbornness or fear of "doing the right thing NOW?" You risk your husband's love and his willingness to endure the enormity of the betrayal for that love for you. Once gone, your road back will be enormously more difficult, if not impossible.

Consequences. They are attached to all action and inaction. Your ultimatum to your husband in refusing to part with the "things" is: "Love me and share me, I am NOT 'ready', may never be 'ready', to commit to you fully or to consider your needs AHEAD of my own. Husband, you have to choose to live with me this way or you have to choose to let me live my selfish life without you. By the way, how long are you willing to have the knife twisted before you admit to yourself that divorce is the "less painful" way to go?"

A "posture of servanthood" or a "posture of 'me first'?" What are you willing to "sacrifice" for love? God didn't wait, He sacrificed everything, gave up everything, and died.....while we were yet lost in our sins. Greater love hath no man than he give up his life for his friend.

It may take you a few days, weeks, or a month, to process all of this...but don't delay too long because time does not stop....the clock keeps on ticking. Your marriage "game" can end, or it can go into "overtime" and continue the work. But it doesn't end until you both win or one of you quits.

FoREVERHERS___ I AM A christian and I do believe in God. But God also gaves us choices, he does not say "do this do that" We have to make the choices that we think are best for us. Yes, they might be the wrong ones, but they are one's choices!!
myrta

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We have to make the choices that we think are best for us. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So if I understand you correctly, Myrta, you "believe" that God's commands are not commands, they are "suggestions?" YOU are essentially "god" of your life and you are sovereign and get to choose to do whatever YOU want or think is "right?"

It's a simple issue of WHO is on the "throne" of your, my, or anyone's, life.

As a Christian, we accept Jesus Christ as both our LORD and our SAVIOR. In accepting him as our LORD, we acknowledge that HE is God and that HE sits on the throne and WE are His servants. We submit our will to His will. We submit our "choices" to His commands. Yes, we have "liberty" in Christ, but it should not be used as a "license to sin willfully."

What is it that continues to motivate your "resistance" to simple obedience to God, dear sister in Christ? "Be ye holy, for I am holy."

FOREVERHERS-\
I do believe in God. I am not a fanatic like you are, but I do believe in God.
I don't go preaching the "word" to other people. But yes,indeed, I do believe in GOD!!!

MYRTA

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do believe in God. I am not a fanatic like you are, but I do believe in God.
I don't go preaching the "word" to other people. But yes,indeed, I do believe in GOD!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta, if you consider loving God for the sacrifice that He made on my behalf, while I was totally unworthy of His love and sacrifice, to make me a "fanatic," then I humbly accept your appelation. If admonishing someone, who claims to be a "bride of Christ," to obey God in loving surrender to Him makes me a "fanatic," then so be it.

But tell me, just who are you mad at now, me or God?

You claim the title of "Christian" for yourself. You state that you believe in God. Those are good things. But the caution I state is the caution that we Christians are given....examine yourself to make certain your belief is true. There are a lot of people who claim to be Christians, but their actions belie that claim. Simply stating that someone believes God exists, that Jesus Christ exists, is not enough, as I am sure you know. Satan himself knows full well who God is and who Jesus Christ is, but that knowledge will not save him. Satan will not surrender his will to God. Pride chains him.

God does NOT want pious platitudes, He wants action. Accepting Christ as your Savior includes acknowledging him as LORD of your life. You do that by surrendering your will to His will whenever your will is in conflict with His commands. God is sovereign. That means very simply that He has the right to command and we are to obey. Period. That simple.

Now, if you want to claim that His commands are "evil" and not "good," then by all means do so. But consider this, God is Holy and cannot sin. But there is one for whom sin is a way of life and his chosen path. He seeks destruction and rejection of God, of sinning and not following God in humble obedience. There can be only ONE "sovereign" in one's life. Yes, one can make some decisions and do certain things as if they were a "high level manager." They can have autonomy in many things. But the caveat is that what they do must also be in concert with the sovereign they "report to."

Pride. Stubbornness. Stiff-necked refusal to surrender "what you want" rather than humble submission of your will to God's will.

So, are you angry with God, with me, with yourself, with someone else?

Myrta, this "fanatic" simply believes that you cannot "have it both ways." You cannot serve two masters (sovereigns). Either you will wind up hating the one and loving the other, or you will love the one and hate the other. Good vs. evil. Saved or unsaved. Surrendered life or self-centered life. Choices Myrta. We DO have the ability to choose. God gave us that and wants our willing choice to love Him and follow Him, but He won't "make" you choose a Christian walk.

"Choose wisely, not poorly" to borrow a line from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.

<small>[ October 09, 2004, 10:45 PM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>

FOREVERHERS===
So you are telling me that in order to be a "good christian" like yourself, I cannot have "free will" to decide my own actions. I have to listen to "HIS" command and do it or else! Hmm, I wonder why GOD gave us free will then! Just to have it? When are we supposed to use it?
I am not the "bride" of God-Jesus. I am not a priest or a nun to be labeled like that. Are you?
Also, to me "Satan" is a symbol of evil, he does not exist!!! I would never put Satan and God in the same category. God is "Almighty" To believe in Satan, is to be away from God.Evil is the absence of God!
I am not mad with you, or with God. OK?
I know I made a mistake, but I also know God has forgiven me. I dont need anyone else to judge my actions. If the Almighty forgave the thief that was crucified next to him, I am sure he will forgive me too. I have already acknowledged my "sins".
Keep on "spreading the word" to the other sinners here!!

MYrta

<small>[ October 10, 2004, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmm, I wonder why GOD gave us free will then! Just to have it? When are we supposed to use it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta - God gave us free will because He did not want a race of robots, programmed to simply follow instructions with no feelings or ability to choose. He didn't even create the angels that way.

"When" we are supposed to use it is every day. We are faced with thousands of "choices" every day. The "guiding principle" in making a choice should be "does my choice bring honor and glory to God or is it self-serving and selfish?"

Hmm, I wonder why GOD gave us free will then!
So that we could CHOOSE to love Him, willingly, in response to HIS first having loved us.

The "why" you may be searching for is the same as the "why" you want your spouse to love you and willing commit their lives to you. YOU love them first, or a desire for their loving you in return is meaningless and would not be there, or "expected." BUT, you cannot "force" or "require" your spouse to love you. You can do all the things that show YOUR love for your spouse, but you cannot make them love you in return UNLESS they CHOOSE to do so. You wouldn't want a "lap dog" or a "robot" anyway because they would merely be reacting to instinct or programming, not making a conscious choice FOR you.

More later on your other statements, but let me ask you something to ponder for now. If you believe that Almighty God has forgiven you BECAUSE He said He would for Christ's sake, and you believe that what God says is TRUTH, what part, if any, of what God has said elsewhere in Scripture do you consider to be UNTRUTH, or an outright lie?

FOREVERHERS---You said it yourself, God gave us free will, so we cannot be robots, and we can make our own choices. They might not be the correct choices, but they are the choices that EACH individual chooses.
He did not give us free will so we can love HIM, we have that choice too. Even if we dont love HIM, he still loves US. No matter what we do, he loves us unconditionally!! If we sin, and we repent sincerely, not only will he loves us much more, but we will be with him in Heaven!
I have never told my husband that he must love me!! He loves me, I dont force him to do so. I have shown him my love all thru our married life. Maybe ,the love was not visible when I was straying, but it was still there. Right now, I am showing him as best as I can that I love HIM>(my husband).It might not be enough forhim,he might want more from my part, but I am giving him as much as I dare to. I have to deal , I have to put in order my concious,my shame, get rid of guilts, before being able to go all out with him. Right now, I am "choosing" this behaviour of mine, because I am not a "robot", because I have "free will" to do as I want. You might be different,but this is the way I am.
Yes, I do believe, GOD has forgiven me ALREADY. If he accepted and forgave the thief that was crucified by him, if he forgave MaryMagdalene, I should be OK. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
When I read the Bible,or Scriptures, I do not take literarry everything that is written in it. Lots of the things there, are alegoric .The Bible was not written by God, but by his disciples. I never said that anything in the Scriptures was untrue, but I do not take everything literrary like I said before. GOD IS PERFECTION, everything and everyone else has flaws!!

MYRTA

<small>[ October 11, 2004, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

I am stunned by the utter vacuousness of the "God" talk that has infected this discussion. It allows the making of totally self-serving and content-free statements that advance no one's understanding of anything.

I don't begrudge anyone their private beliefs, but please try and keep them that way rather than inflict them on people who want to deal with reality.

AaRONIC=
I am not trying to inflict my beliefs in you or anyone here. Those are my BELIEFS!!! If you think they are vacous, do not read them! You have the choice not to.
Last time I checked, we still had "freedom of speech" so whatever we want to say,it is allowed!!

Myrta

Talking about "freedom of speech" is a red herring. I did not suggest that you do not have the RIGHT to say whatever you want. I am just saying that it is unhelpful to others who are trying to learn something from these discussions.

Well, lets advance the conversation.


On Saturday morning my wife gathered all presents by OM so I could dump them in the thrash. In retrospect Myrta was resistant because she is one of those people who hates to be told what to do. I did not detect that Myrta was holding on to the gifts for sentimental reasons, but I could be wrong.

As for God-------- it is probably best to have an exchange without using God to defend a specific point of view. I don't think Myrta was the one who brought God into the thread.

Stanley,

I'm glad to hear you got some resolution in that matter. Hopefully Myrta will see that the benefits of it will eventually outweigh the initial discomfort.

How are YOU feeling about it today?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stanley,
I'm glad to hear you got some resolution in that matter. Hopefully Myrta will see that the benefits of it will eventually outweigh the initial discomfort.
How are YOU feeling about it today?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am doing fine----appetite is back and I can sleep all night------ not bad!

I am still overcome by occasional bouts of sadness, subtle resentment, and I beat myself over the head for not paying attention to subtle signs there was something going on. I could have detected this affair a long time ago before it got off the ground. I hate myself for not having done that------ it was so easy---- everything was so obvious. But, enough of that!

My other concern is finding the path to that nirvana/marriage you described in a prior post. It seems I have a little bit of difficulty approaching my wife and she seems to have even more trouble in getting close. She is always ready to play DEFENSE! I suspect it is a combination of remorse and withdrawal. So we need more time!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am still overcome by occasional bouts of sadness, subtle resentment, and I beat myself over the head for not paying attention to subtle signs there was something going on. I could have detected this affair a long time ago before it got off the ground. I hate myself for not having done that------ it was so easy---- everything was so obvious. But, enough of that!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As they say, hindsight is 20/20. Your emotions are so normal. I'm sure Myrta is feeling similar (and yet different) things. Just keep reminding yourself that you are getting there. Look forward and don't focus on the past. There's absolutely nothing that you can do to change what happened in the past and focussing your energy there is wasted energy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My other concern is finding the path to that nirvana/marriage you described in a prior post. It seems I have a little bit of difficulty approaching my wife and she seems to have even more trouble in getting close. She is always ready to play DEFENSE! I suspect it is a combination of remorse and withdrawal. So we need more time!

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm glad you realize these things, Stanley. You are definitely on the right track, IMO.

I'm wondering, can you two co-exist in your home for a while, and just enjoy each other's existence, and not worry about what your next step is "supposed" to be?? Pushing forward or expecting results is counter-productive. If you were dating this woman, and you were trying to get close to her before you knew you were both comfortable, how do you think it would/could turn out?

Ask yourself WHY she feels she has to play defense?

Take comfort in merely being in the same room, the same bed. Reach out and touch her shoulder or squeeze her hand as you pass her in a hallway. Smile. Ask for nothing more. Expect nothing in return. She needs your unconditional love right now.

If you feel you have to say more, tell her how grateful you are that you have made it this far together. Tell her you are happy and satisfied with the small steps that have been taken. Tell her you look forward to moving forward together.

Yesterday afternoon, my DH reached across the kitchen table and took my hand and told me he was grateful to have me back. He said, "You were gone and I thought I lost you, and I'm so lucky that I got you back." It's been a YEAR for us, Stanley. I don't know how I would have reacted to that a year ago. It might have been too much. Last year, I was so grateful to have him reach out to hold my hand as he fell asleep. A year later, things are still getting better every day.

So yes, be patient. Take time.

Stanley,

I just found this that you posted on another thread:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She stated she is not ready yet to act or say the things I want to hear. So I will go back to a holding pattern and be more neutral. I think I have been rather intense in expressing romantic feelings and this is clearly not working as I thought it would. There are walls between us and unfortunately I cannot bring them down. This is Myrta’s job and she is not ready.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was a couple of days ago, but you're still saying the same things. You realized it a few days ago, but only a short time has passed. I hope that you can continue to be patient.

It's probably already been suggested before, but I'm guessing that you feel a need to bring Myrta back into your control, since you "lost" her. Showering her with your love, affection, and attention seems like the obvious, initial choice. Sadly, that can be overwhelming for someone like her (or me, in my case) and end up doing the opposite of what you hope it would do.

At the same time, it's got to be excruciatingly difficult and stressful for you to sit around and wait to see if she'll eventually make the move back to you. But Stanley, based on what she wrote here on this message board, and based on her actions thus far, she sure seems like she's making her little steps towards you -- back into your arms.

I know it's a scary gamble, but you have to be willing to trust implicitely. She KNOWS how you feel. She KNOWS that your wanting the closeness (or the "nirvana" as you referred to what I wrote about) is what you desire. She won't forget it over the next day or two .... or week, as the case may be. In fact, she might even surprise you -- if given the opportunity to make the first move, she might be willing to make it! You've already described her as someone who doesn't like to be told what to do. This is another way that you are exerting your need to control over her.

Trust. Implicitely. And love. Unconditionally. You've probably already got what you want, but you just can't see it yet. Let her make her own way back into your heart. Keep your heart open and be brave and patient. My goodness, even CC reported that SHE was making the moves on HER husband now! If it can happy for the foggiest of the foggy, it can happy for Myrta!!!! (Myrta, my dear woman, you know where I am coming from with that!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Take comfort in merely being in the same room, the same bed. Reach out and touch her shoulder or squeeze her hand as you pass her in a hallway. Smile. Ask for nothing more. Expect nothing in return. She needs your unconditional love right now.
If you feel you have to say more, tell her how grateful you are that you have made it this far together. Tell her you are happy and satisfied with the small steps that have been taken. Tell her you look forward to moving forward together. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have done all of the above a 1000 times or more. I enjoy been in the same room with her------------ she knows that. To be honest------- I think she is not fully receptive. She may be 90% receptive, but I guess I want 100%.

However, I believe we are doing quite well for 5 months after D-day. One of the problems is that she thinks I am going to leave her after the dust settles. However, she does very little to give me confort when I am distressed. I am also not quite sure of her intentions and sometimes I feel I will come home to find a note saying she left with OM. According to her OM is gone, but I am very distrustful.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> However, she does very little to give me confort when I am distressed. I am also not quite sure of her intentions and sometimes I feel I will come home to find a note saying she left with OM. According to her OM is gone, but I am very distrustful.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think if I had heard these words from my H, my reaction would be, "That is completely understandable." I hope that she says the same to you. I was not betrayed, I was the betrayer. As WWs, I think Myrta and I know that we have to listen to this from our H's.

Only time will tell. As far I am concerned, my H and I look back at D-Day as a new anniversary for us. Like an addict would look at it, we take it one day at a time. I have roughly 365 "clean" (completely trustable) days behind me. And vice-versa, I should say! I'm proud of that, much like I was proud of it when we met, 15 years ago.

Mistakes were made. Work was done. We are moving on. We will always have to work at it. We both know, in the backs of our minds, that it cannot become again what it was. It's the same as it was early on, but it's new and different (and better) at the same time. I don't mean better sex, better romance. I mean better communication, more consideration, etc.

I'm sorry, I don't remember if you've said anything about MC in your posts. Are you two involved in MC?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We both know, in the backs of our minds, that it cannot become again what it was. It's the same as it was early on, but it's new and different (and better) at the same time. I don't mean better sex, better romance. I mean better communication, more consideration, etc.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is what kills me. Maybe I was too much of a romantic traditionalist. There is nothing like unadulterated love with no baggage. The great thing about our marriage was the lack of sexual baggage. I have only been with woman ----------- Myrta. In turn she had only been with me.

Now I have to endure being compared. Now I feel I must live up to the romanticism of the affair---------- this is something I cannot match. The frenzy of two lovers meeting secretly in a hotel after not seeing each other for many weeks is not one thing I can replicate.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry, I don't remember if you've said anything about MC in your posts. Are you two involved in MC? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We don’t go to MC. It is hard to find good MC and at most it is once or twice a week. As long as both of us stay in Mbs it may work. The folks here are very helpful. JL has helped us a lot, but Myrta is upset with him because of a couple of 2x4s. However, I suspect they will speak to each other again.

Stanley,

Or perhaps not. Myrta doesn't seem to grasp what I was saying very well. So perhaps it is better this way, I don't know. But, I do know that you do need to back off and let this thing come to you abit. You cannot "fix" this, because you cannot undo it. As for the comparisons with OM, there is nothing you can do about that either. If she finds him superior she will likely leave. If she cannot find it her soul to come to you and address your fears, she will leave. If she continues to defend and claim that her freedom of choice must be respected while not respect you, then you may leave.

In short a lot is on her table and she will have to deal with it before recovery is complete. You can do little to change this only address and control your own behaviors. I have said it before Stanley and I will say it again, since you are the one that wants things from her, then she controls the recovery. She appears to be satisfied with what you give her, so you don't have a balancing control. It is the way of these things. You don't have to like it or accept it, but your alternatives are limited.

Give it time as has been suggested today. She is a proud woman, and her pride has gotten her in a lot of trouble with regard to this marriage. Somehow she is going to have to address the pridefullness and come to see it differently. A person with pride is a good thing as long as it is focused, but if this pride leads to feelings of entitlement as it appears during her affair, then it is clearly a bad thing. She has to address this within herself.

Stanley unless she asks you for help, you cannot help her. So back off of this and see what will happen.

God Bless,

JL