JL===I think I grasp very well everything you had said to me. BUT. I disagree with you in some of the things, and I do not appreciate some things that were said about me, that are totally untrue. For instance, just now, saying that I felt entitled to have the affair <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Or that my husband was the one working in our marriage, and I was just watching him, not doing anything while he did all the work. That is not true!
I had never,ever posted here or told my husband that I thought the OM was superior to him. ON the contrary, he is much more inferior man. I never glorified him, I just got angry when he talk negaatively about him, because I felt that he was insulting me, because I got involved with HIM.
My husband wants a wife that he never had before!!! We never had such a close relationship, I am a withdrawn kind of person, it is hard for me to do that. My husband was kind of a detached man, so he liked it that way. Now, he is changed and he wants such intimacy so fast from me. I have changed, he has changed too. He needs more emotional connection with me now, but since I had never been like that, it is going to take me some time. I have to work out and get out of my system, my anger, my shame, my guilt,then when I am rid of all that, I can connect with my husband. I will never,ever make contact again.
If I was such a proud woman, I would had never had an affair. Proud people dont get into such personal messes. They know how to handle situations, they dont get involved with OMs or OWs.
Right now, I am not satisfied with what my husband is giving me. He is giving me way too much, too fast, I am overwhelmed, with his love. I need to gain that love back on mytime. I feel bad that he is showing me love when I am feeling undeserving of even his hate!!!
As far as the "gifts", maybe there I was stubborn, but not because I wanted to put the OM before my husband. I hate people nagging me,ordering me what to do.
You, are seeing here as the Saviour of everyone, and thats very nice, that you had helped so many. But just because you are not convincing me so fast of doing things the way you seem fit, does not give you the right to wrong assumptions about me. Some of the thhings that you posted on friday, along with TMCM hurt me quiet a bit! I didnot think I deserved them. I think we are doing much better for such a short time. My husband is seeking perfection, too fast, thats what I think.
I always looked forward to reading your posts,even the not so positive ones. But the ones from friday, bothered me a lot!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
If you dont want to post to me anymore, I understand. But my husband holds you in very high standards here, so please talk to him.

Sincerely

Myrta

JL:

Thanks for the reply.

Myrta is not a happy camper with you. She does not like those 2x4s. However, she got rid of the OM presents, but as you can tell she hates to receive direction from others. Thank God I don't manipulate, I would be 6 feet under.

As for your suggestions I am not seeking many answers from Myrta anymore. I am trying to act normal under the circumstances. I want to wait a couple more months------ I suspect there are some changes coming.

BTW, Myrta was hurt when you said I did most of the work in the marriage. She has always been better than me in that department and even during the affair paid attention to details. On our anniversary date (5 days before D-day )we went to a romantic dinner to a restaurant and she wrote me nice things on a post card. I saw the post card the other day and it was eerie to read what she wrote while having the affair, however, the words were nice. In any event she always did a lot of nice things during the marriage------------------- more often than me that is for sure.

She wanted you to know that she does not think OM is superior. Phew!!!!!!

I hope Myrta writes you!

As per your recommendation I am not pressing the issues.

Oops, looks like Myrta and I posted at the same time.

Myrta,

You stated </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> JL===I think I grasp very well everything you had said to me. BUT. I disagree with you in some of the things, and I do not appreciate some things that were said about me, that are totally untrue. For instance, just now, saying that I felt entitled to have the affair </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, Myrta, if you did not feel “entitled” to have the affair, how do you justify YOUR decision to have one? You made the decision based on your wants, and you felt entitled to have this fun particularly if Stanley never found out. You felt entitled alright, and you found whatever justification you needed to make this decision. You may not like what I am saying but this A was no accident. It lasted two years with I believe you said 1 year of EA and then 1 year of PA. The A was something you enjoyed and something you sought, and you did not allow things such as your marriage vows to interfere with this decision. What is your term for the basis of your decision? What allowed you to do this if it was not a feeling that you were “entitled” to have this fun.


I said to your H, that </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Myrta doesn't seem to grasp what I was saying very well. So perhaps it is better this way, I don't know.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also said
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But, I do know that you do need to back off and let this thing come to you abit. You cannot "fix" this, because you cannot undo it. As for the comparisons with OM, there is nothing you can do about that either.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did not say </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Or that my husband was the one working in our marriage, and I was just watching him, not doing anything while he did all the work. That is not true!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You also said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I had never,ever posted here or told my husband that I thought the OM was superior to him. ON the contrary, he is much more inferior man. I never glorified him, I just got angry when he talk negaatively about him, because I felt that he was insulting me, because I got involved with HIM.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But Myrta, this is what your H thinks. It is what HE is worrying about. Hence the following remark to him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If she finds him superior she will likely leave. If she cannot find it her soul to come to you and address your fears, she will leave. If she continues to defend and claim that her freedom of choice must be respected while not respect you, then you may leave.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And your H does interpret your defending of OM as making a choice for OM, whether it is true or not. You need to understand you are closed to him so he is left to guess what is going on in your head, and as is normal of a BS he is assuming the worst. He has to learn to accept your choices but he does need to know what they are, and right now he is struggling with trust. You cannot just declare that you know how he should feel and have it happen. You will need to open up and talk to him at some point. As I said to him, it is your call as to how and when that happens. But, that does not mean he has to like it or tolerate it. You BOTH have decisions to make. He has decided to love you.


That is why I said to him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In short a lot is on her table and she will have to deal with it before recovery is complete. You can do little to change this only address and control your own behaviors. I have said it before Stanley and I will say it again, since you are the one that wants things from her, then she controls the recovery. She appears to be satisfied with what you give her, so you don't have a balancing control. It is the way of these things. You don't have to like it or accept it, but your alternatives are limited. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You then said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My husband wants a wife that he never had before!!! We never had such a close relationship, I am a withdrawn kind of person, it is hard for me to do that. My husband was kind of a detached man, so he liked it that way. Now, he is changed and he wants such intimacy so fast from me. I have changed, he has changed too. He needs more emotional connection with me now, but since I had never been like that, it is going to take me some time. I have to work out and get out of my system, my anger, my shame, my guilt,then when I am rid of all that, I can connect with my husband. I will never,ever make contact again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don’t you know where this is coming from? It is coming from the emails he saw. He saw you much more connected to OM than you were to him. He saw that you liked it, and craved it. And you know what, he always craved it as well. Now you may say that he was wrong, but he has interpreted what he has seen and read as you being much more connected to OM than him, and that you enjoyed it very much. Yup, he is jealous and he fears he can NEVER be as connected to you as OM was. Don’t you see this? Don’t you see where and why he needs the connection so much now. He needs what you are not giving him, reassurance. Hence his focus on the OM, and what seems to you a sudden need to be emotionally connected to you.

I then said

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Give it time as has been suggested today. She is a proud woman, and her pride has gotten her in a lot of trouble with regard to this marriage. Somehow she is going to have to address the pridefullness and come to see it differently. A person with pride is a good thing as long as it is focused, but if this pride leads to feelings of entitlement as it appears during her affair, then it is clearly a bad thing. She has to address this within herself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You responded </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If I was such a proud woman, I would had never had an affair. Proud people dont get into such personal messes. They know how to handle situations, they dont get involved with OMs or OWs. Right now, I am not satisfied with what my husband is giving me. He is giving me way too much, too fast, I am overwhelmed, with his love. I need to gain that love back on mytime. I feel bad that he is showing me love when I am feeling undeserving of even his hate!!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I believe you are wrong. You took great pride in that affair and that OM wanted you and had wanted you since HS. You know the biblical saying “Pride goes before the fall.” Well it is true. You still have a lot of pride and that is why you won’t do what he has asked or admit that you cannot return his love. You state you need to regain your love of him and your pride is not allowing you to accept it because you feel “undeserving” of it. This is what you said yourself. So if it is not pride that won’t allow you to accept advice, won’t allow you to do what your H needs so badly, that would allow you to believe you could have an affair and no one would get hurt, what do you call it? Let’s put a word to it. You are not the victim here. You tell me what it is that says that “no one will tell me what to do”?


My comment to your H was </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Stanley unless she asks you for help, you cannot help her. So back off of this and see what will happen.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your response was:


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As far as the "gifts", maybe there I was stubborn, but not because I wanted to put the OM before my husband. I hate people nagging me,ordering me what to do.
You, are seeing here as the Saviour of everyone, and thats very nice, that you had helped so many. But just because you are not convincing me so fast of doing things the way you seem fit, does not give you the right to wrong assumptions about me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Suggesting that you did not read what I said. As for wrong assumptions, that is often true. What is expected is that the wrong assumptions be corrected. I don’t pretend to read your mind.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Some of the thhings that you posted on friday, along with TMCM hurt me quiet a bit! I didnot think I deserved them. I think we are doing much better for such a short time. My husband is seeking perfection, too fast, thats what I think.
I always looked forward to reading your posts,even the not so positive ones. But the ones from friday, bothered me a lot!!
If you dont want to post to me anymore, I understand. But my husband holds you in very high standards here, so please talk to him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I find it interesting that Friday’s posts bothered you so much as they were not meant to be a 2x4. Please tell me what part of this bothered you so </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Myrta,

Let me get this straight. You don't like your H's focus on the OM. You don't like that he talks about the OM. You don't agree that you are still in love with the OM, which is what your H thinks. You feel your H doesn't trust you, and it bothers you, and then....


You sit there and say your are 'not ready' to get rid of things OM gave you. You sit there and say you will do it on YOUR time. You say you don't see why these things should bother your H.

I sit here shaking my head. Coffeeman is telling you straight, you will DRIVE your H out of the marriage if you keep it up. Is that what you want, but you are too chicken to admit it? You know these things bother your H and trigger all sorts of insecurity which you then complain about, but you keep them because you are not 'ready'. What are you waiting to get ready for, your H to lose his love of you, are you soooo confident of your marriage that you feel you can flaunt OM's gifts. You are because your H knows about "some" of them but not all, but he suspect more. You are because you know it hurts him but you tell us and him that it should not hurt him. You don't get a say in that matter Myrta.

So what is your goal? To keep OM in your life and around, while driving your H away? I can see no other reason for hanging on to these "gifts". Please enlighten me if I am wrong.

I have already posted to your H that he needs to stop talking about this and I suspect he will. But, if he does and you keep doing this, he will be a lot quieter than you want, and your marriage will be in jeapordy. In his eyes you made a fool of him for two years, and now you what to keep things around to remind him that he was indeed a fool.

I don't get it Myrta. I don't get your thinking if it is reflected in your words. You are risking alot for a man you claim not to love now and could not live with if you went to him.

Must go, but I do hope you think about CoffeeMan's words and perhaps mine as well. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta, it was not my intention to hurt you, but I also have no intention of not telling you what I think. I don’t view you as a fragile flower. I see you as a very strong woman, who had and does pretty much as she pleases. I see you as a woman that makes her own decisions based on her own thoughts. Therefore, if some thoughts are wrong, I see you as the person to state my thoughts to. The good news/bad news about being your own woman, is that you make your own decisions, but you also have to live with the ones that are wrong. You chose to keep the gifts, although you KNEW the idea hurt your H. You basically said that your H did not have the right to ask you to throw them away. My perspective on this is he had every right to do so. I know you did not and do not like that, but when you call the shots you get to here when you miss. You missed on that one.

You may not appreciate this Myrta, but because you are a strong woman, I don’t feel the need to sugar coat my thoughts. I know you don’t sugar coat yours. You are strongly resisted telling your H anything that you know would help him if you are not 100% sold on your agreeing with it. Well, what you are seeing is people responding in kind to you. Not out of meanness but out of understanding that is how you approach things. Something for you to think about.

God Bless,

JL


PS: I did not mean to say Stanley did most of the work in the marriage, I meant in the recovery of your marriage. At least that is true to date. Hence my remark.

JL--Ok, now, so you say I felt entitled to having the affair and thats why I had it. That why I "decided" to deceive my husband and go behind his back. JL, when does the fog starts? Does it start when you are inside the affair? Or does it start before the start of the affair and thats why you get in? Because you love to put all of us WW in the fog, but the fog is only during and after, but not before? I got into an affair, because I was blinded by whatever the OM was feeding me. Yes, I am not going to deny that I did enjoyed it. I did at the beginning especially. But after about 4-5 months I was ready to end it, but I will get pulled into the web of the affair again. Once you are in, it is difficult to get out, unless you are found out!!! Yes, I had the choice of not getting into it, but I guess I weaken.
JL, my husband knows the reason me keeping the stupid gifts. It had nothing to do with me thinking him superior or try to keep things to remind him of WHA T I DID!!! He might have interpreted me defending the OM or keeping his things because I prefered the OM, but NOW he knows the reasons behind it. I have talked to him, before, ,I do talk to him now and explain whats in my mind. But he chooses to believe what he wants to believe. Those are all his perceptions, he has wrong ones about me, I had wrong ones about him too. We were both wrong assuming this or that!!! We wanted to believe what he wanted, not the truth!!!
I never ever wanted to have an affair since high school!!! I never talk to the OM while in high school, I did not even looked at him!!! He was ugly and still is!! I did not take pride or took pride in the affair. Thats nothing to be proud off!!! Thats not necessary for you to say that, since its completely untrue!!!!!
So you are saying to me, that in order for me to keep my husband happy RIGHT NOW, I have to show him and give him what I am scared to give yet. I cannot do the things that I want to do in my time, I have to do them now, because you and coffeeman think that I am putting in jeopardy my marriage and risking him leaving me.
No JL, I am not too chicken to admit something, if I need to admit it. I do not want the OM, I want my Husband. If I wanted the OM, I would not be here, I would be with him, trying to make it work. Being proud of the affair, like you say. I am not keeping the OM at all in my marriage. The OM was gone on DD, from my life, even If I made contact.
I do not or did not flaunt any gifts to my husband. I guess you are so angry at me, that you did not read that the stupids gifts are gone!!! I even took some scissors and cut into pieces something he had given me!!!
Again you are wrong assuming something about me. Yeah, indeed I might be and sound like a strong woman today, but all thru the marriage I was a very introverted,shy person. I did not decide to do anything, and I mean ANYTHING before having the approval of my not dominneering husband!!! All the big decisions, the really important ones, his approval had to come first.
No, I dont expect you to sugar coat your posts to me, but dont talk to me, like I am the worst, foggiest WW ever!! Because I AM NOT!!!!
If I had been such a domineering woman that always did her will, my husband would be longggggg gone. He hates those types of women. I might sound that way now, but I am not. I am scared, very scared of my future, without my Marriage and my husband.
And Just because I had that affair, I do not have to take everything that is thrown my way, and say "throw some more". I am still a person with feelings, and yes I do have a say in some things still!!!

Myrta

<small>[ October 11, 2004, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

Myrta,

I find it very interesting that you think I am telling you that you must do everything your H says and when he says it, when I posted in black and white, HE HAS NO CONTROL OVER THIS AND IT IS UP TO YOU DO THIS IN YOUR TIME. I even reiterated that statement in the last post to you.

You are also telling my you are a victim,and that you did not enjoy having two men in your life? Is that what you are saying? You are telling me you did not find it flattering to have OM chasing you, and for you to continue this affair for 2 years?

Come on Myrta, I am not putting words in your mouth, I am repeating what you have said. It is your call. I told your H as much. He has no say in this right now, it is all up to you to decide what you are going to do, and when you are going to do it. I think you need to reread what you have said to me, and perhaps rephrase it.

I am not telling you what to do, nor when to do it. I made my suggestions and was told no you won't do that. I accept what you say, and I suggested your H do the same. What I also said was that you are playing a dangerous game with your marriage.

As for the "fog" you brought that up, not me. You tell me when you entered it, and when you finally decide to quit deceiving your H. It was when H found out, not before, and yes the contact did continue. WHat is he to make of that? That you worried about OM's feelings more than your H's? Actually it was that if you lied to your H and he did not find out, everything would be cool.

Girl, you cannot have it both ways. No matter what you think, this recovery revolves around you and you being honest with yourself and your husband. What I think or say is immaterial. You can take or leave anything I say. But, you do need to face the facts and it seems to me you are still dodging. It is for you and STanley to decide.

I must go.

God Bless,

JL

JL...I am not saying I am a victim!!! I did not say that!!!
No, actually I did not enjoyed having two men in my life. Like I told you before, it was giving me slepless nights and ulcers. But yet, I could not get out of it.
The fog, my fog started before the start of the actual affair, and it lasted after the affair was ended. I dont think I am in any kind of fog right now. I am very clear in my thinking. I am not deceiving my husband, by lying to him or to myself.
What is the dangerous game I am playing? That I feel like s... and cannot open up to him yet."? Is that the dangerous game? That I am a human dealing with her inner self trying to be myself again? I cannot have time to recuperate myself so I can be a better wife for Stanley? I have to do things NOW, or I am putting in danger my marriage. Some people here have been in this for 2 years, 5 years,more than that!!! But yet, I have to be straight as an arrow already or my marriage is down the drain?? Kiwi,AW,others had been dealing with this longer that us. Are they doing things to the marriage too to put it in danger???
Yes JL, you can give suggestions like you say, and we can follow, bend a bit, or not follow at all. Everyone will apply it differently to their situaion. Dont you agree???

Myrta

P.S. Even though I am hating whatever you are saying
to me, I still love to read what you post!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Most be a masochist!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

JL...I am not saying I am a victim!!! I did not say that!!!
No, actually I did not enjoyed having two men in my life. Like I told you before, it was giving me slepless nights and ulcers. But yet, I could not get out of it.
The fog, my fog started before the start of the actual affair, and it lasted after the affair was ended. I dont think I am in any kind of fog right now. I am very clear in my thinking. I am not deceiving my husband, by lying to him or to myself.
What is the dangerous game I am playing? That I feel like s... and cannot open up to him yet."? Is that the dangerous game? That I am a human dealing with her inner self trying to be myself again? I cannot have time to recuperate myself so I can be a better wife for Stanley? I have to do things NOW, or I am putting in danger my marriage. Some people here have been in this for 2 years, 5 years,more than that!!! But yet, I have to be straight as an arrow already or my marriage is down the drain?? Kiwi,AW,others had been dealing with this longer that us. Are they doing things to the marriage too to put it in danger???
Yes JL, you can give suggestions like you say, and we can follow, bend a bit, or not follow at all. Everyone will apply it differently to their situaion. Dont you agree???

Myrta

P.S. Even though I am hating whatever you are saying
to me, I still love to read what you post!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Most be a masochist!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

JL:

Thanks for posting to us.

Myrta is much stronger than me in a lot of very important ways. She does not back down from confrontation as easy as I do. When the tough gets going she is able to speak her mind very forcefully. When we go and buy a new car Myrta is the one that negotiates the price down with the manager of the dealership----- that is something I cannot do as well as she can.

As for the issue of the affair and entitlement. I believe she was a much more liberal an stronger woman in her late 40s who was fed up with the mundane problems of life as well as our own grown kids having problems of their own. She then discovered the Internet and met OM.

It should be noted that Myrta and I courted each other when we were teens-------- we never courted each other as adults, by then we had been married for a long time. When OM appeared he provided a courtship that Myrta HAD NEVER EXPERIENCED IN HER ENTIRE LIFE. In a sense she felt somewhat entitled. She probably tried to stop, but by then it was too late and the EA was well on its way to become a PA. In addition I don’t think she has any idea about how smooth OMs are.

We once talked about things such as the superego. Myrta admitted that as a child she was not given the best chances to develop a good superego--------- so I believe her FOO and childhood played big roles. I sort of knew about this all my life and had accepted this risk the day I married her. However, I can tell you from the bottom of my heart---- Myrta is a good kind-hearted selfless woman. I guess the affair is probably the only instance in her life where Myrta has ever shown traces of selfishness----- she is not like that at all. She is VERY unselfish and giving. She does not have a bad bone in her body and can be very loving when she is not serious.

You are correct in stating that I envy the emotional connection to OM. I read the emails. In one of them Myrta talks to OM about the Myrta that I have never known. She then says-------- do you think we should ever allow Stanley to get to know the Myrta he has never seen? I think that one hit me harder than the “I’ve waited all my life for a man like you------------ “ I know Myrta does not feel that way now, but I do wonder about the emotional connection-------- yes I am jealous of that even if Myrta says OM is the lesser man.

Despite everything on D-day there was something inside of me that told me Myrta would never leave me. Call me self assured or vain, but I felt that way. My doubts appeared weeks later when I realized folks in these relationships fall in love and often tell each other "that this love is stronger than anything else they felt before". I am pretty sure of myself, but one can only take so much and reading those emails caused a major dent in my armor---------------- I certainly seek reassurance.

Myrta has said------- why do you worry----- I am here? But I read the stories of CC who was ready to leave her husband for another woman even though she had no idea she could like women. Then I read about Scotty from the UK whose wife ran away with a convict who is an unemployed bum and I realize that there are no guarantees-------- OM’s qualifications whether good or bad are immaterial. Folks in affairs do crazy things.

JL,

As a WW, I have to ask ... in regards to the recovery of a marriage, what percentage of the work do you put on the WS?

It seems to me that you are repeatedly asking Myrta to do all the work in their relationship, and the only thing you are asking Stanley to do on his end is to wait and be patient.

I'm not arguing with the fact that Stanley might be pushing too hard at this point, but I feel compelled to comment that it feels pretty heavy-handed on the side of the WS.

I'm reading Myrta's posts (and yours), and can you tell me, in a nutshell, what it is exactly that Myrta is doing wrong?? I'm really confused why you are coming down so hard on her.

In my own situation, I really relied on my H to step up to the plate as well. Granted, I turned everything over to him -- I realized early on that I was in a fog and my own judgment shouldn't be trusted. But I wouldn't have lasted through MC if I didn't hear him admit to some of his own mistakes along the way.

I guess it's natural that I would "side" with Myrta on this, but this isn't even about me and I'm overwhelmed with the expectations for her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My doubts appeared weeks later when I realized folks in these relationships fall in love and often tell each other "that this love is stronger than anything else they felt before". I am pretty sure of myself, but one can only take so much and reading those emails caused a major dent in my armor---------------- I certainly seek reassurance.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know if your wife can offer you the assurance that you want but if you're asking in general, I can assure you that although I said and felt those things at the time, I sure was under the influence of "the fog." Looking back, if I really felt that way towards the OM, I would have left my husband and treated my OM with the respect that such words should have demanded. Think about it .... it's a Liar and a Cheater that is saying those words ..... I mean really, how much can they be believed???

Out of the fog and into reality, I know what is real and true now. I don't know what is or was "missing" within me that allowed me to drop down into that fog. I've worked through a lot of self-esteem issues in therapy and only now do I feel confident enough to say that it would never happen again -- I don't NEED to have an A.

But during the time, I also had to justify my own actions to myself. I wouldn't be a Liar and a Cheater if I didn't "love" the OM. Right? What, I'm going to take up with a married man and cheat on my own husband for no good reason? I was convincing myself as much as the OM that I was "in love" and the love was "nothing like I had ever known before."

FatithfullyHoping---I do feel like I am under attack all the time with JL's posts. Dont get me wrong, I do appreciate his advice, but sometimes he thinks I am the worst wife in the world/.
I am really trying to make this marriage work,despite what he thinks. He is always telling me that the "ball is in my court" that my "words carry so much weight". It is a lot of pressure to be put on my shoulders. I need to heal inside before I can give myself completely to my husband. I need to feel a little better about myself, get some confidence back, so I can give some to my husband too. He is a strong man, he has good self esteem, he always did and still does. Sometimes he portrays me like such villain here. Yes, I was a villain, but I am not anymore. I love him and want a better marriage back. It has only been five months since the discovery of the affair. But everyone here thinks that I should be a perfect wife, with no remorse, and showing my love 24-7 to my husband. I am embarrass to say the least, when my husband looks at my face especially. He is trying to see things, to read me, to know my insides. Its scary and it hurts me. How was your husband after DD? Were you strong with him all the time, and did the right thing? Unlike me?
Thank you for your post!

Myrta

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can assure you that although I said and felt those things at the time, I sure was under the influence of "the fog." Looking back, if I really felt that way towards the OM, I would have left my husband and treated my OM with the respect that such words should have demanded. Think about it .... it's a Liar and a Cheater that is saying those words ..... I mean really, how much can they be believed???
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow-------- you read my mind! I wanted to ask you something along those lines. My wife Myrta was madly in love----- there is no doubt--- she said all those things and more. She did some things that go well beyond simple cheating----- way out of character for her. I am 100% certain she saw the OM as the love of her life and nothing could compare to this love. Then on D-day she dumped the OM on the spot and threw away all the mementos with written words (letters, scraps of paper, and emails). She kept presents, but she has admitted they had no emotional attachment---- in any event those are gone.

After D-day she stated that whatever love she professed for the OM was to justify the sex and the affair and that she never intended to leave the marriage. Afterwards she stated she meant those words, but realized they were empty because she did not choose the OM. Almost a carbon copy of how you acted!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But during the time, I also had to justify my own actions to myself. I wouldn't be a Liar and a Cheater if I didn't "love" the OM. Right? What, I'm going to take up with a married man and cheat on my own husband for no good reason? I was convincing myself as much as the OM that I was "in love" and the love was "nothing like I had ever known before." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow------- are you Myrta's clone? This is the very same explanation she has given me. To be honest i have been so distrustful that I had a hard time believing that, but now that you say the same thing I am reassured.

How long did it take you to get the OM of your system?

Myrta keeps saying OM is the lesser man, but I have never been loved by Myrta in the way she loved the OM. She could say all day OM is less, however, OM could be the right element for the perfect chemical reaction whereas I may not elicit the same reaction. Can you see why I always feel insecure? Have you read about the crazy things that folks involved in affairs do?

It is very hard for me to believe that anyone can turn off a love like that in a few weeks. Hmm------- perhaps I look at this from my own perspective. If I loved another woman they way you and Myrta loved your OMs I would be a goner. How could I go back to a wife of 30 years after having loved like that? How do I go back to a marriage which (if one believes WW) is not in good shape? Why would I want to leave the love of my life behind and instantly turn my attention to the spouse (who in a sense had been replaced by another body for a long time)?

How do you accomplish that?

<small>[ October 11, 2004, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
He is always telling me that the "ball is in my court" that my "words carry so much weight". It is a lot of pressure to be put on my shoulders. I need to heal inside before I can give myself completely to my husband. I need to feel a little better about myself, get some confidence back, so I can give some to my husband too. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta: This is what I desire the most, but I will not seek that from you. I realize that I must let you do this on your own.

If you have read all my posts it is obvious to see why I crave that special intimate connection where you have NO DEFENSES Up and you simply fuse your mind to mine and we become one unit instead of me looking at you trying to figure out what you think and vice-versa.

BTW, it is true------- your words are VERY POWERFUL indeed. I realized this the very 1st day after D-day. Remember what I said to you? "You have the power to make me better anytime you choose to do so". Remember your answer? " That is too much for me to handle!"

<small>[ October 11, 2004, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

JL. This is what your wrote to my husband that bothered me quiet a bit!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suspect you were the one that gave a lot, and when you got busy she decided she still needed what you used to give adn she went elsewhere. The reality she needed to give a lot as well, and that included understanding why you were doing what you did and what you were doing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL...This is what I referred to..you were talking before the affair. Before the affair, my number one priority always was my husband. I was the one working in the marriage more than him.
Your suspicions were wrong!! I just wanted to clarify this!~

Myrta

Myrta,

You wrote
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How was your husband after DD? Were you strong with him all the time, and did the right thing? Unlike me?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was about as ugly as it can get, I suppose. My H, who is for all intents and purposes, a tea totaller, listened to about half of what I needed to tell him, and then he walked out of our house, telling me he didn't know when or if he'd be back. I found out later he went to a bar, had several drinks, and drove around for hours. I sat up all night not knowing what to do, and folded laundry. I called him incessently on his cellphone, but he never answered.

When he came home, he said to me, "I hope you know that I can never trust you again. But I also want you to know that I am not going anywhere." I collapsed into his arms and we both cried together for a long time.

Of course you can't apologize enough, and that's all I did for days. The following morning we both called in sick for work and spent the day talking some more, and looking for a MC. We were at our first counselling session by Day Two.

In those first hours after he returned from the bar, he also told me that if it was going to work out, then I should never have contact with the OM again. I agreed, promised, cried, thanked him, and then when he left the house to tend to our children at school, I sent the OM a text message on his cell.

I was IMMEDIATELY remorseful and while I was frantically trying to cover my tracks by erasing the history of messages on my cellphone, I realized that if I was going to be "like that," then I truly wasn't deserving of the marriage with him. I swore I'd be honest and the first chance I got, I dropped back into the mode of lies and deceit.

When H returned home with the children, I took him aside and told him what I had done. It was like it was starting all over again. He said, "The ONE thing I asked you not to do and you did it??? Are you TRYING to rip my heart out?" We didn't really speak again until the first meeting with the MC. I am forever grateful that he agreed to go after all.

Our MC was strong and straight-forward (just like the infamous JL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) and I went home with a list of instructions of Do's and Don'ts. Among them was an NC letter, which H and I wrote together.

In the days and weeks that followed, I never again faltered from my agreements and promises between the MC, me and H. About the only thing I am "guilty" of in the past year are the small little trinkets and couple of pictures that I found in unexpected places in our house and didn't immediately throw away. I DID, however, tell H about them when I found them. He asked me if I WANTED to keep them and I said absolutely not. I am slow, but not stupid! At this point, I do not want reminders of that person. For me, life is so good and positive, that it seems counter-productive to do anything BUT that.

At our last counselling session, our MC concluded that the A had served an important function in our marriage. It was a wake-up call for BOTH of us.

As for my H, in the initial weeks that followed, he worked very hard at his assignments from the counsellor, too. But he was extremely hesitant to get physical with me again. In our case, I was the one pushing for a renewal of our sex life. He told me for weeks that he was more than happy to cuddle in bed with me, but that he could not get intimate with me because when he got close to me he couldn't help but "see" me with the OM. We abstained from sex for a couple of months and I never pushed him even once. When he was ready, he approached me, and we have not looked back since.

Myrta, you asked me how my husband was after our DD. I hope you can see that it took TWO of us to get to where we are today. I don't personally believe that you OR Stanley has done anything WRONG in your quest to rebuild your marriage. Everybody does the best that they can, and that's what you are doing.

Stanley seems to think he sees a lot of me in you (or vice versa). If you think so too, then I hope that you can see that you CAN and you WILL get past this if you want to. If I did, then you can too.

FaithfullyHoping,

You asked </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As a WW, I have to ask ... in regards to the recovery of a marriage, what percentage of the work do you put on the WS?

It seems to me that you are repeatedly asking Myrta to do all the work in their relationship, and the only thing you are asking Stanley to do on his end is to wait and be patient.

I'm not arguing with the fact that Stanley might be pushing too hard at this point, but I feel compelled to comment that it feels pretty heavy-handed on the side of the WS. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excellent question. Actually, I think the BS has to do a majority of the work. However, they need to be allowed to do the work by the WS. I am on Myrta’s case because she is resisting facing a lot of things or seeing her H trying. Hence my statement to him to back off some and let her decide things. If you want an example, Myrta said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Right now, I am not satisfied with what my husband is giving me. He is giving me way too much, too fast, I am overwhelmed, with his love. I need to gain that love back on mytime. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta seems to want things only on HER schedule and what worries me is that her schedule maybe to delay and delay until they are stuck in a marriage where Stanley has deep resentments and she is running things as if she was justified in what she did. She continually makes statements that she will NOT do anything she doesn’t want to do. Fair enough, but then don’t tell me that the affair was a mistake or that she suffered while in the affair, because she is a woman that will NOT do anything she doesn’t want to do. When she says this Stanley realizes that she would do for the OM what she won’t do for him, or at least that seems that way to him. This will lead to resentment that may well destroy the marriage.

I am on Myrta because I am not sure she realizes the affects her words are having on her H. I am not on her because she has not decided to jump right back into this marriage. This takes time. She just told me that she </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I hate people nagging me,ordering me what to do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yet, somehow Stanley is supposed to trust her that she will treat him right now that the A has been discovered, but she won’t do anything she does not want to do. She then says that his lack of trust really bothers her. I am sure it does. If she wants his trust, then she cannot do everything her way.

So the battle between Myrta and I has been joined. Me pushing her to see how what she says or doesn’t say affects her H and his efforts, and she trying to protect herself against what she perceives to be someone “telling her what to do”.

In case you are interested Faithfullyhoping, she will win the battle. I have no influence over her. I just fear she will lose a war that she is ignoring and that is the one Stanley is fighting within himself. Resentment is a very deadly thing. In fact there is a quote often quoted here, and first brought here many years ago by a gentleman by the name of WhoDat. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don’t want to see either of them die, and I do believe that there is a lot of rebuilding left to be done in this marriage.

Myrta,

You asked </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do feel like I am under attack all the time with JL's posts. Dont get me wrong, I do appreciate his advice, but sometimes he thinks I am the worst wife in the world/. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta, here is something that will boggle your mind. I don’t think of you in terms like that. If I did I would do one of two things, simply stop posting or more likely simply tell you that I felt that way. You should know by now I really don’t pull a lot of punches in this stuff. In fact I find it odd that you think I felt you were the worst W in the world. But, I guess from my perspective having read many 10’s of thousands of these posts it never occurs to me that someone would feel I would make such an assessment of someone I posted to. By the very fact that you are here and posting it puts you in a very select group of people really trying to make things work.

However, I you are right in that I am attacking your thinking and your defensiveness. We have had that discussion before. As for attacking you, no, I can not see any reason for me to do that.



</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am really trying to make this marriage work,despite what he thinks. He is always telling me that the "ball is in my court" that my "words carry so much weight". It is a lot of pressure to be put on my shoulders.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, the sad but true fact is that you do have a lot to say about whether or not this marriage is successful or not. Your words do carry an enormous amount of influence on your H and you are holding him off because you don’t want to feel pressured, but that means you are forcing him to the sidelines. Fair enough, but that leaves it up to you, to initiate recovery. If you want things on your terms, then you put the pressure on your own shoulders. If you asked your H for help and let him help you, then the pressure is reduced. I keep hoping you will open up and ask him and allow him to help rebuild this marriage.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I need to heal inside before I can give myself completely to my husband. I need to feel a little better about myself, get some confidence back, so I can give some to my husband too. He is a strong man, he has good self esteem, he always did and still does. Sometimes he portrays me like such villain here.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here is his problem Myrta. He needs to heal, but he is willing to give himself completely to you. You will not allow it because you cannot reciprocate and he feels pushed away. I also think you over estimate your H in that his self-esteem is NOT as good as you seem to think. This is a DJ on your part that obscures the damage done. Read what he has posted tonight. He is telling you that he realizes you chose another man and whether the OM was a better or worse man than he, he now realizes it does not matter. You opened up to the OM like you have not to him, you let the OM see the “real Myrta” .


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, I was a villain, but I am not anymore. I love him and want a better marriage back. It has only been five months since the discovery of the affair. But everyone here thinks that I should be a perfect wife, with no remorse, and showing my love 24-7 to my husband. I am embarrass to say the least, when my husband looks at my face especially. He is trying to see things, to read me, to know my insides. Its scary and it hurts me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta, no one is expecting perfection and everyone expects remorse, but the question is are you seeing your H? He is trying to read and see tings in you, because he knows there is another you, that he did not know existed. He is afraid this other you will decide to dump him. As yet he has no way to know if that is true or not but he hopes it is not.

Finally, you said that I was wrong he did not give a lot, and that my suspicions were wrong. Ok, fine with me. I actually meant money and stuff, but I stand corrected.

I must go, but I do hope this clarifies a few things for you.

God Bless,

JL

Stanley,

You wrote to me

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How long did it take you to get the OM of your system?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By the end of the first week after DD, after our first MC session, and after things were just starting to get slightly less emotional between us, I said to my H: "After a month of NC has passed, would you be okay with the idea of my writing to (OM) to tell him I'm okay and that I wish him well? Not a phone call or an email -- I'm talking about a letter that you could read and mail for me so you would know what was being said."

Needless to say, that didn't go over well. Once again, I was trying to rip his heart out. At the time it made so much sense to me ------ it was just a simple courtesy thing, nothing more. Or at least that's what I was telling myself.

Three weeks later when the month "anniversary" passed, I looked back at that statement and was disgusted with myself. I could see how far I had come already at that point and I didn't want to risk things again the way I had when I text-messaged him the day after DD. I just couldn't BE that kind of person anymore. Honesty and integrity were the name of the game at that point and little white lies were a thing of the past. Because ALL little white lies grow into BIGGER ugly lies. And I just wasn't that person anymore.

In the past year I've had an opportunity to speak to OM -- I saw him in a mall one day. I could have stopped and probably no one would have known that we spoke. Except me -- I would know it.

He's just not worth it. He's not that important. I am far more important than that, and so it my H and so is my marriage.

Stanley, you say you are worried about all the crazy that things folks in affairs do. But Myrta is no longer in the A, is she?? You don't give her credit for how far she has come, I fear.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If I loved another woman they way you and Myrta loved your OMs I would be a goner. How could I go back to a wife of 30 years after having loved like that? How do I go back to a marriage which (if one believes WW) is not in good shape? Why would I want to leave the love of my life behind and instantly turn my attention to the spouse (who in a sense had been replaced by another body for a long time)?

How do you accomplish that?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here's how that happens. First of all, an affair isn't a "real" relationship. It's a manufactured creation, a fantasy. An affair can be whatever you want it to be, or not be, by its very nature. It's always going to SEEM more exciting because it's tailor-made to YOU. (I'm speaking specifically now about my case, which was an EA-turned-PA.)

Second, an EA-turned-PA is EASY. Not hard to find, I'm sorry to say. And like an illicit drug, not hard to justify after your first time. So lazy people like me go "looking" for an affair (and I use that term in quotes because I wasn't really "looking," but I had the emotional mind-set that it could happen easily). What the mature, responsible and appropriate thing to do should have been was to turn to my H and say, "Look. THIS is going on in my head and I either need to get some help on my own or we both need to get some help so I can avert this before it happens." But that doesn't happen very often that I know about. Affairs are EASY. Fast food. Working on yourself and taking responsibility for your actions: excruciatingly difficult. Guess which direction I went??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

How did I turn the love of a spouse behind me? Easy. I convinced myself over and over again that I loved myself more than he did and that I deserved to take care of myself if he wasn't going to and the OM (Mr. Suave or Mr. Smooth, as you call him) fit right into that mold, too. Here's someone with all the time in the world for me, no "responsibilities" that come before me, nothing that was more important than me. On one hand there is a 20-year relationship (15 years in marriage), on the other hand, wild sex and romance and excitement. Guess which I chose?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Because why the hell shouldn't I? I'm a liberated woman who is well educated, can take care of herself, and doesn't need to sit around and wait for a man to meet my needs when it's convenient for HIM .... I'll just go and TAKE it from someone who can and will hand it over quickly, easily, cheapy, with no hassle. Fast food.

Here's what solidified my "choice": as I got deeper into the A, I pulled away from H. As I pulled away from H, he pulled away from me out of self-defense. As he pulled away from me, I felt more and more justified in my actions. Viscious circle.

So the question remains ..... why go back? Lots of people don't. But those of us that do .... well, I can only speak for myself. I knew that what I left behind was more important to me than the Fast Food. I knew that my personal committment to honesty and integrity was more important than the so-called "love of my life." I couldn't love myself anymore. That's another reason. It's a risk admitting to an A, and I honestly didn't know how my H would react. All I can say is that I'm lucky he stayed on and was willing to work with me on this marriage. It was a risk I was willing to take.

I hope you can see that when Myrta confessed to you and asked to return to you, it's because she valued you and your marriage enough to risk losing it. That sounds like double-talk, but it's not. She knew the ball would be in your court at that point, but she was willing to risk it because YOU are what is important to her. The OM ..... worth losing. You? Worth fighting for.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As for God-------- it is probably best to have an exchange without using God to defend a specific point of view. I don't think Myrta was the one who brought God into the thread.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stanley - I see now, keep God out of our lives and out of our discussions. I understand and I will withdraw from further discussion following this post.

Stanley, you are Myrta's husband. It is YOUR marriage, not mine or anyone else's. ALL that we try to do is to help, but frankly if help is not wanted, then it's best to not "interfere" by offering that help. From my perspective, I responded when Myrta adamantly claimed to be a Christian, and then began to state things that are decidely not "traditional Christian thought" like she doesn't believe that Satan is a real, live, being or that forgiveness is some sort of "blanket" that God gives to all who are "sorry" for doing wrong even if they do NOT accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

I have no wish to "argue" the points of Christianity with you or with Myrta. There is a "hostile" reaction from Myrta, not an attitude of openness to discussion or a willingness to examine if what she thinks about God and Christianity is "right" or not. I categorize it in the same vein as "fog" that is applied to justifications for an affair. It clouds and distorts the truth, but there is an unwillingness to consider that they "might" be wrong. Thou shalt NOT... is a clear command from God. But Myrta has already made it clear that she does not think she has to follow God's commands. A Christian follows God's commands willingly by CHOOSING to do so out of love for God through acknowledging that HE is sovereign, we are "bought and paid for" by the blood of Christ, and that God "owns" us.

In infidelity, that "fog" enshrouded WS usually results in the BS engaging in "Plan A" activities. I have no idea what your personal belief in, or walk with, Christ is like, so I won't even suggest that you make the changes in yourself first, to lead her out of the "fog."

I will conclude my participation in this thread with the following observation from someone who truly hopes you both find reconciliation and healing and a newfound love for each other:

Virtually everything I have read is about Myrta wanting to retain control over everything, to do everything her way, according to what she thinks is her schedule. Everyone else, including you Stanley, can get out of the way or get trampled underfoot. Even God is trampled underfoot by some innocuous statement that; "Right now, I am "choosing" this behaviour of mine, because I am not a "robot", because I have "free will" to do as I want. You might be different,but this is the way I am.
Yes, I do believe, GOD has forgiven me ALREADY. If he accepted and forgave the thief that was crucified by him, if he forgave MaryMagdalene, I should be OK."

It IS "Myrta in control," not God in control.

So be it. It is stubbornness and pride, not humble submission and contrite repetance. I have read enough of her responses to JL to know that her stance is not restricted to just God, it is given liberally to anyone who might suggest that there might be a "less foggy" way to see things and to do things. But Myrta is right in one thing for certain.....it IS her choice, it IS her choice to exercise her "free will" to "choose poorly." I only hope and pray that the fog lifts before it is too late....NONE of us is promised tomorrow and to presume upon God is dangerous.

Stanley, I truly wish you and Myrta the best of luck in recovering your marriage. Although I am not sure why she participates here when she is going to "do it her way" no matter what. Please KNOW that all any of us wants is FOR the two of you to have your marriage restored and the love reignited....the "two of you" alone and in love until death do you part.

God bless.

Forverhers:

Thanks your your reply.

At this point I do not want to seek a religious solution to our problem with the marriage and infidelity.

Myrta and I are Christians, however, I am not surprised by your remarks saying that we may not be the kind of Christians you approve.

That is why I rather keep my religious belief a private matter. I must say that Myrta always feels closer to me while we are in church and that she felt a greater degree of guilt and remorse during the time of the affair when we were attending church.

I share Myrta's believe system in that there is no entity called Satan. For us there is only God------ the creator of the entire universe. God is EVERYTHING and to assume the existence of another similar entity with goals that are opposed to what God wants us to do is to reduce the power of God------------ the almighty. In a metaphysical sense God and Satan cannot occupy the same space------ it is simply illogical. Don't call me crazy I had this discussion with folks who have four years of theology plus four years of philosophy under their belt. Is there evil? Sure, of course----- the evil is the result of our free will. Satan is a nice metaphore to describe the evil within us--- that is all.

In any event you are correct about the fact that Myrta wants to do things her own way.

I don’t want to talk about religion at this time, thanks!

FOREVERHERS___I recommend that you read my whole thread before you make wrong assumptions. You obviously had just read the latests JL's posts.
As far as accepting advise from people here, I accept advise from "normal" people, not from people that think that they are hollier than God!!
JL and I might had been at odds lately, but I do listen to what he posts to me. I might disagree with some things with him, but I do like and have learned a lot from him.
My fog had dissipated enough to see that YOU are a person that only accepts your point of view. You dislike very much people that dissagree with you. That is not christian like.
Everybody tries to "fog" some of their wrong choices or actions. Its a human thing to do. I know I did wrong, I know I broke the vows of marriage, but I AM SORRY, I HAVE TRULY REPENTED FOR MY SINS. My affair has been over for over five months. I had been married 30 years, I derailed from the santity of my marriage for 1 1/2. I think I did pretty well, even though I am not a christian like you say, and I am in this fog to do only my way. Yes, it was my choice, my wrong choice, to get into the affair, but also it was MY choice to end it and realized I err.
It is obvious that I participate here, because I am seeking the recovery of my marriage. Otherwise I would not be stating my thoughts, being criticized by people that dont know all the facts.
Why are you here??? Because your marriage is pure perfection and you want to offer some pointers? Or are you here, because you want to help all of us here to be better christians.??
God Bless YOU, FOREVER HERS

MYRTA