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Hi Stanley, This time around something things YOU said struck some "me too" chords with me! </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am not sure how Myrta saw me in the aftermath. In my mind I saw myself as a fool for taking her back. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never saw my H as a fool. Far from it. He was the faithful, honest, and trustworthy one compared to me. I never looked down on him. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> BTW I found out at midnight and did not sleep at all. I think Myrta wanted to make love to me as soon as I found out, but I could not stand her touch. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Me too. I guess I felt that relief of the confession and was desperate to instantly re-connect. It's another selfish move on the part of a WS though, because the WS forgets that the FS is instantaneously processing a ton of information at once. Reactions on both sides are understandable, giving what each is going through. When I was rejected that night by my H, I took it to mean he was waffling on his decision to stay with me. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> After all infidelity means that we failed as men. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wrong! The FS is the FAITHFUL spouse. Not the "failed" spouse. The WS is in the wrong, and we know it. If we didn't know it, we wouldn't have anything to hide! </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In fact Myrta’s OM thought that only he could give her orgasms---- that was his domain! Is this humiliating or what? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Me too! My OM thought that the sex I had with him must have been much better than anything I had ever had with my H. I imagine that's part-and-parcel with maintaining the "Disneyland" illusion. Why stay in an illicit relationship if it's NOT good/great/thebestIeverhad?? A Liar or Cheater has to justify themselves SOMEHOW. Thinking they're the cat's meow in the sack is probably one way to do it. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> BTW, both Myrta and OM were consumed with thoughts of not being loved anymore after D-day. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Me too. I believed that if and when I revealed myself to be a Liar and a Cheater, then nobody would ever want me again. It's one reason to STAY with an OP, because a fellow cheater is better than no one .... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We all want to be loved!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Quite true.
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Myrta, I'm glad you got the book! Let us know what you think and if it provides you with any kind of revelation. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You know, it is funny you mentioned that you could not believe your husband wanted to stay with you. Well, I still cannot believe my husband wants to stayy with me and thats why I have some reservations and fears. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Who wouldn't have reservations and fears in your situation? Personally, I think you need to focus on the fact that you are together right now and you have to make the best of things right now. Concentrate on not doing anything to contaminate what you have TODAY. Tomorrow you can worry about tomorrow. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I dont think I could ever go back to the OM. That was exciting, yes, but at the same time it was very stressful too. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well said. It is exactly the reason why I will never stray again. Life out "in the open" is a much better place. And obviously it makes for a stronger marriage. BTW, to FrederickGirl ... I really admire JL's stance and point of view and ability to see things that others haven't thought about yet. I don't personally think his approach is wrong, good, bad, or otherwise. Not every friend is a good shoulder to cry on. That doesn't make that person a bad friend. I can relate to Myrta because I have walked in her shoes, that's all. But for a lot of things I am probably too close to the situation to be useful, and where JL fears that he is doing more harm than good, I fear that I may be enabling the situation. What's great about these message boards is that you hear from all different cross-sections of people with many different ideas. Myrta and Stanley should take what works for them and run with it. They have to live with themselves, after all. But that's just my opinion!
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FaithfullyHoping...I do want to concentrate on today, I would love to erase "yesterday", forever and ever. But thats not possible, unless you are in that movie that came out a few months ago, that you could have your memory erased from all the unpleasant memories that you did not want to remember. Tell me something, do you still feel shame thinking about the affair?? Or you think,less and less each day. I would like to feel better about myself so I can help much better my husband. But I am trying, really I am. I love my husband and I dont want to lose him. He is my true soulmate, the love of my life. We have together since I was 13, we learned from each other, about love and sex! Dont think for a second you are not helping us, because you really are. It is very helpful to my husband, to read about how you felt when you were in the affair, and it is very helpful to me, to see how you had dealt with the situation and what helped you and your husband. I wish I could be "talking a storm" like you to my husband about the affair, but it is sooooo hard for me to open up, not only now, but always. Not because I am selfish and want to do it my way, not caring about his feelings,, I do care inmensely about how he feels. But its extremely hard for me to ta lk,but I have been telling him things each day. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> About the comments of "FrederickGirl" I think like you said, everyone is entitled to their oppinion. Weird, that she never posted before. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> My husband was reading some of the book already and he was telling me bits and pieces. I will read it tonight and try to learn and do better. I am "just learning" to be a WW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Thank you again! Myrta
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FH:
In the book "Surviving and Affair" it is said that the WW is so madly in love with OM that making passionate love seems so right and perfect. OTOH, making love with the BH seems mundane and uninteresting. That passage really hit home. At the time of the affair i sensed Myrta was not that motivated or interested in making love and hence I did not try very hard---- in fact it was not that enjoyable for me either. However, she always had her orgasm at the end of the ordeal (I guess we can call it that since her mind was with OM).
How natural did it feel to jump in bed the 1st few times? Myrta claims there was no hesitation and that she wanted that badly. To be honest, i thought there would be hesitation, but there was none. Is that the way it is?
Myrta says that she felt unworthy of me and very guilty and hence she avoided making love to me. However, I get the sneaky suspicion that in these situations the WW has given her heart away to the OM and in fact feels she should be faithful to the OM. Wow. faithful to the OM by avoiding sex with the husband----- If I keep writing this stuff I am going to get depressed-- thank God for high self-esteem- he he. SO my question to you is:
Is it the remorse and guilt or the idea of being faithful to the OM that promotes such a bad sex encounter?
Here is another issue:
Myrta's OM was separated from his wife. When he was boasting about his incredible ability to give orgasms to women Myrta somehow got offended because he sort of implied she was living in a marriage with NO ORGASMS. So Myrta told OM she had great orgasms with me as well. Wow!---------------- Myrta gave OM a huge love buster! In any event when the discussion regarding Myrta having sex with the husband came up the OM did not want to face the reality that he was madly in love with a woman who slept with another man 365 days of the year. My question to you is:
Where is the logic to be completely in love with person who is in someone else's bed every night? OM said he blocked that vision out of his mind so he could feel the love for Myrta.
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Stanley, I have to preface my post by saying I surely don't speak for ALL WW's. These are only my personal experiences and opinions, but if they help you, I am glad. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How natural did it feel to jump in bed the 1st few times? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Personally, I was in a mind-set that I did not believe my H loved me anymore and that I was "entitled" to take care of my own needs. Having sex with a (virtual) stranger was exactly what you think it would be. The "newness" quality coupled with the danger was exciting. I know you don't want to hear that answer, but it's true. If the whole thing was a balancing act, something had to tip the scales to make me break my marriage vows. That excitement was it. I know already what your response will be, Stanley. I know this information will bother you. But it's past history in your wife's case. The hesitation came afterwards. Yes, I felt guilt. Yes, I was remorseful. And yes, I definitely felt what Myrta described ... unworthy. There are days that I still feel unworthy of my H. Even right this moment, he is out picking me up my Starbucks because I was too tired to go for myself. Little things like that mean so much to both of us now. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Is it the remorse and guilt or the idea of being faithful to the OM that promotes such a bad sex encounter? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't say that I felt a sense of faithfulness to my OM. My lack of interest in my H during the A had more to do with the vicious circle of his supposed lack of interest in me (or so I thought), which led to my lack of interest in him, which led to my A, which was justified by his lack of interest in me. Follow? It wasn't a "faithfulness" to the OM. It was a selfishness on my part to want to fulfill MY PERSONAL NEEDS in whatever damn way I felt like. I still had sex with my H and it was satisfactory sex, like you describe with Myrta. Maybe perfunctory is a better word. I didn't want him to know about the A and at the same time, I was constantly testing him to find out if he wanted ME, so I could continue to justify my A. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Where is the logic to be completely in love with person who is in someone else's bed every night? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is NO logic. Myrta's OM and mine were of similar mind-set, although he stayed married to his wife throughout the A. My OM was very "jealous" of my life with my H. He tried to make demands of me to stop being intimate with my husband. That was the beginning of the end for us, actually. I had to constantly remind him that HE was not my husband. Of course he never liked hearing that. He felt that since our hearts were supposedly with one another that it didn't matter. It did to me. I never gave over my heart to him, just my body. Still, he wanted to believe he was a better partner, better lover, better everything than my H. He felt that if I didn't need something better, I wouldn't have gone looking for him. I never got to tell him that the something better that I needed was a better ME in all of this. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OM said he blocked that vision out of his mind so he could feel the love for Myrta. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And he thought he should have been the "keeper"? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
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FH: Yes, some things are painful. Knowing one's wife is so hot to jump in bed with someone else is not a pleasant thought. Myrta's OM thought he could provide fatherly advice to my grown children and in fact referred to them as "our kids" when talking to Myrta. He always showed a lot of interest in the kids and always asked Myrta about them (OM speak, I guess). He added his surname to Myrta's 1st name in their communications, but Myrta did this too. He would immediately call Myrta from the airplane when he landed in our city and tell folks around him he was checking in with the wife. He made plans for marriage and wanted Myrta to work with him in a small business (of course had no experience running such business). He said to Myrta they were not having an affair. OM believed he was having a normal relationship and that they were a normal couple. OM never said nasty things about me because he naturally knew how to avoid love busters. BTW, Myrta never said anything nasty about me other than "I neglected her". The only negative remark OM made about me (that I know of) was that I was having an affair. He was sooooo sure and would tell Myrta to hire a detective to corroborate this. Myrta would actually defend me and told the OM many times I was incapable of having an affair. Myrta said she envisioned a natural end to the affair before I would discover the whole thing. She stated she never planned to leave the marriage. Where you like that as well? How long was your affair? How was your OM in relationship to your husband? Did you choose him because the opportunity was there? Did you ever fight with OM? Did you ever had to manipulate your H to get him out of the way if he suddenly made plans that interfered with your meetings with OM? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't want him to know about the A and at the same time, I was constantly testing him to find out if he wanted ME, so I could continue to justify my A.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That brings back memories. In the last month of the affair Myrta and i made love twice. I remembered when she got her period and told me in a nasty tone how I only made love to her twice. I was puzzled and felt guilty/confused.
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Myrta said she envisioned a natural end to the affair before I would discover the whole thing. She stated she never planned to leave the marriage. Where you like that as well? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, that is exactly what I imagined would happen. I didn't want my marriage to end; in my mind, H was trying to end it first. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How long was your affair? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">18 months </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How was your OM in relationship to your husband? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not sure what you mean by this one. Do you mean how did he feel about my H? He was jealous that I was still with him. (Although it was a hypocritical stance on his part because he never left HIS wife. He claimed that he couldn't afford to be divorced. Odd, since he could afford to carry on an affair.) </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Did you choose him because the opportunity was there? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Without a doubt. I'm sure he would say the same, though. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Did you ever fight with OM? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. Mostly about the hypocrisy of his demands. This is the reason I am sure we would have never been able to live together. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Did you ever had to manipulate your H to get him out of the way if he suddenly made plans that interfered with your meetings with OM? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All the time. That's the duplicity I made reference to in an earlier post. But again, I felt justified because I felt I was begin neglected. (I wasn't, I just felt as though I were.)
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> All the time. That's the duplicity I made reference to in an earlier post. But again, I felt justified because I felt I was begin neglected. (I wasn't, I just felt as though I were.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmm—to be in an affair one must really make a lot of assumptions. This is the type of thing that is hard to understand. If I ever had an affair it would be for sex and there would be no emotional involvement to cloud my judgment. The cloudy judgment is very hard to accept by the BH. I don’t mind the fact that the WW wants to get it on with a new body-- I do to. I am mostly bothered by the maneuvers to achieve the goal.
I have a bunch of somewhat personal questions regarding the logistics of having an affair i.e. having sex with two people and the possibility of one interfering with the other. Some of the scenarios that come to mind are rather unsavory. For instance, one night Myrta was VERY FORCEFUL in saying she did not want sex. I was surprised because it had been a long time. Could it be she was with OM that day? Could it be she was going to be with OM the following morning and wanted to be clean?
OM wanted to have oral sex very badly. Myrta never agreed to that. But, what was OM thinking? What if Myrta had sex with me the nigh before? Do OMs think at all? If I was dating a woman who was sleeping with someone else I would worry about oral sex------------- what do you think? This is really creepy stuff------ and makes me think OMs are in Disneyland.
Sorry for the graphic questions--- but all these issues runaround my head.
How often you saw OM?
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If I ever had an affair it would be for sex and there would be no emotional involvement to cloud my judgment. The cloudy judgment is very hard to accept by the BH. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Speaking of assumptions, I could be making an assumption by saying this is a male/female thing. At the very least, I think one would have to say that "everybody is different" in this regard. Personally, I wouldn't have stranger-sex. I was only able to be with the OM because I had developed an EA with him. That is the danger, I believe, in EA's: they can so easily lead to more. Your questions about the physical logistics of an affair are very legitimate ones. It's certainly things that I worried about all the time. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For instance, one night Myrta was VERY FORCEFUL in saying she did not want sex. I was surprised because it had been a long time. Could it be she was with OM that day? Could it be she was going to be with OM the following morning and wanted to be clean? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course I don't speak for her, but I was in similar situations, yes. Not every time -- more often than not it was an emotional choice. I wasn't in the head-space to be with my H at the time and I didn't want to give myself over to someone with whom I was not emotionally connected (see above paragraph). But yes, a couple of times I wondered if one man could sense the other had been near me. (Although personally I was adamant about the OM wearing a condom.) </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do OMs think at all? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is not my department, but based on what I know of my OM's personality, he was thinking and conniving all the time! He was always extremely careful to cover all his tracks. It takes the spontaneity out of everything, but adds to the excitement at the same time. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If I was dating a woman who was sleeping with someone else I would worry about oral sex------------- what do you think? This is really creepy stuff------ and makes me think OMs are in Disneyland. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you would worry about the other people involved in your triangle because you are currently a clear-thinker who is not involved in an affair. When you are in the thick of it, such details aren't as irrelevant. It's all about the act. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How often you saw OM? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nearly daily, but there wasn't a daily sexual involvement. We live in the same city and our work is vaguely/distantly related to one another, so it was easy to create excuses to be in the same place at the same time.
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Speaking of assumptions, I could be making an assumption by saying this is a male/female thing. At the very least, I think one would have to say that "everybody is different" in this regard. Personally, I wouldn't have stranger-sex. I was only able to be with the OM because I had developed an EA with him. That is the danger, I believe, in EA's: they can so easily lead to more.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Painful stuff for me. I picture myself having sex with another woman, but I would have no interest in giving her my heart if i was married. My wife said the same thing--- the emotional intimacy was key! Do you realize how far away this leaves the BH? He is not in the picture at all! SO I always come back to the same question: How do you fall in lust with BH again? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your questions about the physical logistics of an affair are very legitimate ones. It's certainly things that I worried about all the time. Of course I don't speak for her, but I was in similar situations, yes. Not every time -- more often than not it was an emotional choice. I wasn't in the head-space to be with my H at the time and I didn't want to give myself over to someone with whom I was not emotionally connected (see above paragraph). But yes, a couple of times I wondered if one man could sense the other had been near me. (Although personally I was adamant about the OM wearing a condom.)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta has refused to talk about this. In a sense I think it is important because I have all these lagunes in my head and I am trying to put the time line together so I can move on. It is certainly painful to be rejected like that in bed. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is not my department, but based on what I know of my OM's personality, he was thinking and conniving all the time!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have the feeling Myrta's OM was similar------ he wanted to give her a cell phone paid by him after D-day so they could talk. He wanted Myrta to have a private PO Box so he could send stuff. ect. I suspect many OMs may be controlling or manipulators, but I could be wrong. On the other hand BHs tend to be trusting laid back fellows who don't check up on things. I would venture to say many OMs are anal. What do you think? Were you able to establish that emotional connection to your H right away? Myrta keeps saying she is not completely ready to be fully emotionally connected to me. The remorse and turmoil of the A are still with her.
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I picture myself having sex with another woman, but I would have no interest in giving her my heart if i was married. My wife said the same thing--- the emotional intimacy was key! Do you realize how far away this leaves the BH? He is not in the picture at all! SO I always come back to the same question: How do you fall in lust with BH again? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's obnoxious for a WW to say this, but if my H told me he had emotionless sex with another woman, I'd be just as hurt by that as a long-term affair. Unfaithfulness is unfaithfulness. WHY it happens (i.e. leading from an EA or just a fling) is really irrelevant in the end, isn't it? One form of unfaithfulness shouldn't be more forgiveable than another, IMO. And yes, the BH is far away during the A. I don't see how a wife could have an affair without turning away emotionally from her H. Not without having emotional problems or something bordering on multiple personality. If you are a human being with morals, you have to somehow justify your actions. We all do it out own way. Even you are saying, Stanley, that you could "just have sex" with someone, but you don't view that as being as bad as having sex with an EA attached to it. For me (and Myrta, I assume), "just sex," could be construed as the worst-of-the-worst. "Worst" for the WS and "best" for the BS, from the point of view of me during the A. (I didn't want to hurt my H, I only wanted to make myself happy. Had I known that my emotional detachment from my H was so hurtful to him, perhaps things would have been different. That being said, I don't blame HIM for that, I blame myself for checking out of the relationship and being cowardly enough to have an affair DURING marriage.) Falling back in lust with my H didn't happen overnight. We had to work on re-attachment ourselves to one another. Through MC, we were encouraged to begin spending a lot more time with one another. It was something we had taken for granted. We have four school-age children. Our focus was always on a good life and healthy family life for them. It took a number of marriage counselling sessions for us to knock it into our heads that we have to come first as a couple. Both of us were arguing against the MC, saying a "date" several nights a week wasn't necessary, because we were together all the time. "Together" = six of us. We planned a weekend away together, and one of our children was having separation issues, so we went ahead and brought all four of them with us to our "romantic" hotel room on the coast. It was a fun, pleasurable weekend, but it wasn't about "us" as a couple. It was about the whole family. We argued vehemently that we were together, we were happy, we weren't obsessing about the A, and we were getting along well, so wasn't everything fine? Still, the MC pressed us to have time ALONE. She reminded us that we are different people when we are two adults, alone in private, then we are as parents, co-parenting our brood. We started slowly ... I think our first "date" was right after a MC session. We already had a babysitter at the house, so we decided to go out for dinner together after MC. It was awkward, but fun. From there we graduated to other activities, but it took a lot of work from the MC to get us to do it. She actually made us bring our daytimers into the session and we booked in time on each other's daytimers. We decided ahead of time on the activity, and we agreed who would book the babysitter and who would just "show up," like a real date. It was novel and fun and it went a long way to getting to know one another again. The "lust" crept back in slowly, along with the trust between us. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Myrta has refused to talk about this. In a sense I think it is important because I have all these lagunes in my head and I am trying to put the time line together so I can move on. It is certainly painful to be rejected like that in bed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, I do not mean to speak for Myrta, so I am just going to guess that perhaps she feels that sharing such details with you would be too hurtful for you. You're saying you want to hear them, but she knows you, and maybe she knows what your ultimate reaction will be. I'm not a psychologist, nor am I an expert in all of this. Again, I can only tell you what I have gone through. I have to wonder if it's necessary to rebuild that timeline. Will it be a step backwards? Is it something that will help you to trust her MORE or LESS? The other side of that is that maybe Myrta doesn't want to relive it herself. Maybe her own guilt is weighing her down. I don't recommend sweeping it under the rug, but perhaps you can come to some compromise. As her if there were ever similar scenarios, but don't demand to know when and where and how. I think it's pretty common for a WW to feel the need to avoid her H after having just been intimate with the OM. You point out the physical reasons, but there are many psychological ones, too. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> On the other hand BHs tend to be trusting laid back fellows who don't check up on things. I would venture to say many OMs are anal. What do you think? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In MC, our counsellor described my H as "lazy" in his attention to our marriage. My H described himself as someone who took too much for granted. I'm sure some would say it's the same thing. He believed (erroneously) that he concept of trust was inherent in a marriage. He acknowledged his mistake in not following up on it. You can be trusting and not be negligent at the same time. OM's as anal? Again, not my department. But my OM certainly was! </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Were you able to establish that emotional connection to your H right away? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, as you can tell from my story above. Once the initial arguing, crying, and bitterness had passed, and the NC was issued, we settled back down into a "nice" life. My H said he felt a lot better just knowing that I was back, but of course he was still not emotionally or physically able to connect to me. I think that had we left things there, at the point, without MC, we wouldn't have moved any more forward. But our MC was able to help us reconnect (by forcing us to spend more one-on-one time together, as I told you). The MC was critical for us, because we needed an outside influence to show us who we were to one another. Human beings are creatures of habit, and as long as things weren't seriously out of whack (like one of us involved in an affair), we tend to take the easiest route possible. For us that meant just settling into a nice family life again. I once had it explained to me this way: imagine a field of deep, freshly fallen snow. When you have to cross the field, you create a track. Another crossing, a new track. When you go back the next day, are you going to cut a new path? Or are you going to follow the track that you know? It takes an extraordinary event (or a push or a suggestion) to make you take the harder route and cut a new path for yourself. Otherwise, we'll run the same path forever, happy to not have obstacles in our way. That is marriage for most of us. Especially after a few children. We fall into a routine and it takes something extraordinary to force us out of it. The ONLY reason we started "dating" again was to get our MC off our case! We were so convinced that everything was fine and the idea of spending several hours a week ALONE together was ludicrous when we already did EVERYTHING together. I don't know if any of this helps you or even applies to you. The bottom line is that falling back into "lust" was a product of renewing our love and trust for one another. I would not want the "lust" before the "trust."
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's obnoxious for a WW to say this, but if my H told me he had emotionless sex with another woman, I'd be just as hurt by that as a long-term affair. Unfaithfulness is unfaithfulness. WHY it happens (i.e. leading from an EA or just a fling) is really irrelevant in the end, isn't it? One form of unfaithfulness shouldn't be more forgiveable than another, IMO.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree! BTW, I have never been close to that. I did flirt a little when I was young and saw how things could move along, but I was too chicken to keep going. I stopped right away. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And yes, the BH is far away during the A. I don't see how a wife could have an affair without turning away emotionally from her H. If you are a human being with morals, you have to somehow justify your actions. We all do it out own way.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Even you are saying, Stanley, that you could "just have sex" with someone, but you don't view that as being as bad as having sex with an EA attached to it. For me (and Myrta, I assume), "just sex," could be construed as the worst-of-the-worst. "Worst" for the WS and "best" for the BS, from the point of view of me during the A. (I didn't want to hurt my H, I only wanted to make myself happy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta was like you----- she thought I was detached------ not her. However, what can destroy the marriage is the emotional attachment to OM. To be honest I don't think Myrta was as attached as others. She was able to dump OM on D-day with little difficulty. Of course she was in shock about the discovery and did not anticipate the withdrawal. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Falling back in lust with my H didn't happen overnight. We had to work on re-attachment ourselves to one another.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have not explored that issue with Myrta, although she seems to like me. But, what do I know. I thought she liked me while she was having the affair. You see-- every once in a while she would do something real romantic with me and if i had any doubts or suspicions they would vanished for several weeks. NOt sure if she did them on purpose to threw me off or whether they were genuine feelings. At one time I was away at a meeting in a nice resort and she flew in to surprise me. We made love as soon as she walked into my hotel room. However, she did not feel the same explosion as with OM. I did not do well either and had premature ejaculation. You said you need trust before the lust; I have been telling this to Myrta for a long time. I am begging her to be honest at all times because i want to trust her very badly. If I find out she is lying to me again (and she did after D-day) it will be a huge blow! <small>[ October 14, 2004, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>
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