Ok, need some advice again...

Remember I sent an email to the OM? I know this was probably wrong of me but my motives were two-fold. One, to see if he would give me his version. Two, to see if he would contact her because I figured she would say something to me. As far as how I found out about this, I gave her the password to the email spy program, told her how to get into it and told her to uninstall it. She didn't for whatever reason. I happened to see that she actually didn't uninstall it and curiosity killed the cat so I was perusing the emails over the last few days. These two were sent last night while I was at work.

Well, he replied to my email, but not to me - to HER!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi XXXXXX, I guess that you are unable to return my call, so I decided to send this to you, even though MIF will probably intercept it anyways.
I don't want to cause any more trouble for you, but I thought you should know this. This is a email that MIF sent me Sat. at 1:28am. I have not
responded to him, as I feel that he should trust that everything you told him should be good enough, without my explanations needed. Again,
I'm sorry if I may be causing any trouble by contacting you, but I thought you might have wanted to know this. Good luck with everything, I
hope you can get things going the way you want them to, because you're a great person and you deserve to be happy. take care - OM</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My W replied,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It won't be interceptted, just copied to another email address. I guess I must be the only one being honest here since last Thursday, this hasn't been the first surprise--that is comforting. Thank you for letting me know. You won't cause any more trouble than I have already caused myself so don't worry about it. I told him when I got home early Saturday morning that I called you on my way down state. I also told him how we ended up in your bed together--that I asked you to lay down with me--I don't want to say too much so if you two do happen to speak that he won't think that I have told you what to say. I do appreciate all of the years you have lended me your ears and a shoulder to cry on. That is mostly what I wanted to talk to you about last Saturday. I value my friendships like close family members so I am taking this kinda hard that I have destroyed our friendship. There are only two people in this world that I am totally comfortable with and completely trust --- you happen to be one of them. It just so happens that you are male and most don't think that is appropriate. I thought two people could have a relationship without having a hot steamy love affair---I guess not. I am sorry that I got you into this mess. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's funny how she mentions that she is the only one being totally honest, but yet she copies this to another email (a free yahoo! account) in hopes to be able to send it without my knowing. She want's me to trust her, then she needs to demonstrate that she can be trusted. He mentions that I should trust her. Sneaking around like this is the reason I don't trust her.

She likes Dr. Phil and his advice and one thing I have heard him say is that "Those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing". I think she should take that advice.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

<small>[ October 01, 2004, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: marriage is forever? ]</small>

Also Star*fish,

We got a call yesterday from the MC and they had a cancellation so we are going this monday. Yea! I will hold off on going through Penny right now, but thank you for setting that up.

MIF?

Dear MIF?

this sounds like a lot of fog. It's indeed funny how a BS will talk about "honesty" etc. not realising how painful their own actions are/were. They think it's all very "innocent" because they're not "doing anything wrong".

Still I think the e-mails you intercepted are encouraging and show that your W is really willing to end her friendship with this man. But NC is essential to not make her change her mind again. And, much more than just NC, you'll need to work on the M together, slowly but surely. Because NC is really her decision - you cannot control her, and she cannot control you.

She doesn't understand the concept of NC right now. She doesn't understand how hurtful it is to you that she still contacts OM now. If you use LB on her... that won't help her understand. You'll have to do a lot of plan A-ing my dear, until the fog lifts and she can truely see what happened and how you felt.

Yes it is encouraging. I have told her it hurts but don't know if she realizes how much.

Ya know the funny thing is that there was a thread a while back about men and woman being friends. I just remembered that I posted in their my feelings and my thoughts on that were almost a preminition.

MIF?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by marriage is forever?:
<strong>I have told her it hurts but don't know if she realizes how much.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well I guess it's one of those things that only another BS can understand. If it has never happened to you (and it's different for a WS, so it hasn't "happened to her") then you can't fathom how it really feels.

I hope you are having some good moments too, every now and then?

yes, the last few days have been great!

mif,

So glad to hear about the counseling appointment! I know this is hard on you....but you're doing really well, and I'm encouraged that your wife has agreed to go to the MC. Keep us posted on how it goes okay?

Well, we went to the MC this morning. It seemed to go pretty well. Obviously our big issue is communication. Hopefully, he can help us work through that obsticle so that we are able to improve our marriage for good. I liked him better than the one we saw last year. My W will go alone next week and I alone the next time, then he will see us together again. He took a lot of notes and even commented that the guy last year didn't take many at all (going to a different Dr. in the same office). There may be a light at the end of the tunnel. I know that I used to tell the W that I couldn't change, but now feel I can and will change. I can do this!

MIF?

mif,

What you are describing is exactly how I coach the clients I have. I see them together, than separately, and then together again. I find it really does help to move things along quickly because the most important issues don't get lost that way. It sounds like you picked a good one! I'm rooting for you chere.

((((((((((((((mif))))))))))))))))))

Yes, maybe when he speaks with us individually he can use that info to determine where to take our joint sessions. Is it normal to be nervous when speaking with the MC? My hands were all clammy. I guess it's because I have to speak my feelings which is difficult for me to do. I am out of my "comfort zone" so to speak. Hopefully it it will help me to be more communicative with my W.

MIF?

Well, my W is currently in her indiviual councelling session as I type this. I hope all goes well. We have had some ups and downs the past few days, but it seems like more downs. I caught her violating the NC letter and trying to hide it from me. We had a long talk about that and agreed to be radically honest with each other. She sent another NC letter (I just hope she means it). I explained to her why I needed her to have NC with the OM. Using the love bank analogy, and since she says he is her best friend. I told her that his account has a lot higher balance than mine and as long as she continues to contact him he will keep making deposits and I will never catch up, no matter how hard I try. I think it made sense to her, but who knows. I truly fear that she will contact him and hide it from me. She mentioned in an email to him on Sat. morning that she wanted to call him after her counceling session so I am afraid that she will do just that. I don't think she understands how much it hurts me that she does these things.

I know it is a major love buster for her when I spy on her, but I feel like I have to. I mean she tells me she won't contact him but does so anyway and then deletes all the evidence from her email account. How I found out Sat. was I was at work and got that "pit" in my gut. I logged onto the internet provider website and checked the email from work. I happened to see that he had just replied to her and there were a long list of attached emails that they had been sending back and forth all night long. I rushed home to catch my W in front of the computer and see what she would tell me. She asked what I was doing home and I asked her what she was doing on the computer at 3AM. She said she was doing nothing and I asked if she was emailing the OM and she just looked at me like she didn't know what to say, because she didn't know how much I knew. I walked over to the computer and pulled up her email account and she had already deleted all the "evidence" since she heard me outside. I was able to log into the internet providers website and log into the email from there and the 3 messages I had seen were still there. I showed her what I had seen and asked her to explain. She continues to say they are friends, but these are just a few excerpts from their correspondances that tell me there is more than friendship between them.


My thoughts on these comments are followed by the quites and in bold. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
From my W to OM:
"Maybe that is my problem--I don't get to talk to you on a daily basis"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I read this as she is thinking about him all the time and longs to be able to speak with him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
From my W to OM:
"Maybe we were meant for each other"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I read this as my W is tossing around the idea of spending the rest of her life with him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From OM to my W:
"AFFAIR is a harsh word now that I say it to myself a few times.... almost makes you want to make it totally worth while then."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They only kissed and shared a bed (she stopped it before it could go any further) but I still consider it an affair. Especially with what seems to be going on emotionally between them. Anyway, he seems to be hinting that she should have gone "all the way" that night. I read this as he is saying he wants to be with her and if I am going to keep saying she is having an affair she might as well do it. Maybe I am over-reacting, thoughts, advice? It still hurts me just as much as if she had sex with him (at least I think, I guess I don't really know since she didn't actually have sex, and I hope I am never in position to find out either)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From my W to OM:
"if I had only met you 11 years ago....."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We've been married for 10 years so when she tells him "if only I'd met you 11 yrs. ago" she is saying that she is thinking about what her life would have been like with him instead of me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
From my W to OM:
" I just can't get our night out of my mind, I honestly do think about it all the time. Everytime I lay down I want you to be there and your not physically but you are mentally. At least I have that and no one can take that away from me."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This really hurts. I constantly wonder if she is thinking about him as we are lying down next to each other, or whenever I show her affection (which I am trying to do a lot of) is she imagining him instead of me? I work the midnight shift so is she longing for him to be there with her at night while I am working? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From OM to my W:
"That night spoiled me too, I really enjoyed having someone I care about next to me when I woke up." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He is confirming his feelings for her by letting her know that he cares about her as much and would like to wake up next to her all the time.

Those are not the things you write to a "friend" if you ask me. I don't know if she is trying to convince me or herself that they are just friends. She told me that night that she was going to tell me that she had emailed him, and that may be true but I'm sure she would have watered it down quite a bit and not mentioned the above quotes to me. Especially since she had deleted everthing. I told her that if she wants me to not be suspicious she needs to not hide things from me. "Those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing." We had a long talk sat. morning when I got home from work and agreed to stop the nonsense since she takes a stab at me and I take one back at her. Right now, I just want her to have no contact with him and stick to it. I think that is the only way we will get through this. I wish I had some way to verify whether she did or not, but I don't. I guess if she is she'll slip up sooner or later, but I'd just like to know where I stand.

I emailed the OM again with an angry tone, told him I wanted some answers and that I wanted to meet him. He did reply this time but avoided the questions. He also said that my W is a friend and he just cares about her happiness.

MIF? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Well, my W said that her councelling session was more a general question and answer session. More background info rather than her opportunity to air her feelings without me around. Is that normal? I was kinda hoping that she would be able to get her thoughts/feelings/concerns out there so that the MC could use that in our joint sessions. I don't know. I didn't have much time to talk to her about it as I had to run out the door to go to work when she got home so I don't know much more than that.

Well, yesterday was pretty rough on me but we had a breakthrough today, I think. She told me that she does have feelings for the OM. How is this a breakthrough, I feel it's a positive that she is willing to at least admit that to me. She said she told me Sat. morning but I don't remember hearing her say it, most likely due to my anger at the time. She also said she understands why I don't want her contacting him.

Now my question is. What do I do if she is still contacting him and hiding that from me?

MIF?

Ok, almost one month out from D-Day, and things are still pretty rough. My W keeps contacting the OM and tells me that she doesn't think she can stop. She says that he has been a friend of hers for 8 years and only since 8-28-04 has she felt anything other than friendship for him. She resents the fact that I wish she not contact him and says that no matter what happens between us she will always be friends with him. I don't know, should I just let her contact him as long as she doesn't hide it from me? Right now she is still trying to cover her tracks even after we both agreed to total honesty. I guess, I would rather her show me what she is saying to him rather than try to hide it all. I have asked her to put him on the back burner for a while so we can get our M back on track. She tells me that she doesn't have any plans to be with him should we not work out. She just got wrapped up in that night with him and it started to make her thing. Any suggestions?

Hello,

A quick comment. If the roles were reversed, do you honestly believe that your wife would be so accepting of you having constant contact with your affair partner? The answer is of course not so why are you considering it?

No Contact means No Contact. If she is unwilling to cut off contact with her affair partner then it is virtually impossible to be in recovery for your marriage. Judge a person by their actions and your wife's actions speak volumes.

If you accept her contact with the OM then you need to ask yourself are willing to live in a marriage made up of 3 people and are you willing to share your wife with another man? I think you are a product of emotional abuse from your wife.
Many people who product of emotional abuse eventually become comfortable with the abuse and see it as normal. It sounds to me this is what is happening to you. I hope I am wrong. Am I wrong?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bryanp:
<strong> Hello,

A quick comment. If the roles were reversed, do you honestly believe that your wife would be so accepting of you having constant contact with your affair partner? The answer is of course not so why are you considering it?

No Contact means No Contact. If she is unwilling to cut off contact with her affair partner then it is virtually impossible to be in recovery for your marriage. Judge a person by their actions and your wife's actions speak volumes.

If you accept her contact with the OM then you need to ask yourself are willing to live in a marriage made up of 3 people and are you willing to share your wife with another man? I think you are a product of emotional abuse from your wife.
Many people who product of emotional abuse eventually become comfortable with the abuse and see it as normal. It sounds to me this is what is happening to you. I hope I am wrong. Am I wrong? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're right, if the roles were reversed I'm pretty sure she would not accept the fact that I wanted to stay in contact with the OW. I guess i was just thinking that if she is going to continue to contact him I would prefer to know about it rather than her hide it from me. I wouldn't say I have been emotinally abused, but I am probably not the one to say so. It might take an outsider to be able to give that diagnosis. Maybe the MC will be able to tell.

Well, I had my IC session last night. Was mostly a background type of thing, where the C wanted to know about my childhood. I have a problem opeing up to people, problem communicating, and since my parents didn't show a lot of affection toward one another and I felt I could never really talk to them about things in my life that were bothering me, he seemed to think that had a major impact on me and why I am the way I am. I always kinda knew that was the case. I just hope there is some way to reverse those personality traits I have developed.

MIF?

Had our 2nd joint MC session this morning. It went well. I really do like this Dr. He took a very difficult situation for me to deal with and gave me another perspective on it. Read here for more info on that. I am beginning to see that this might very well be totally emotional for my FWW. There may not have been any PA other than kisses. For the first time in 2 months I see my FWW making a valid attempt at working on this M and I do like what I see. Even the MC said today that if we practice working on the issues he has brought out for us that he sees us as having a very good chance at recovery. That makes this pessimist feel like an optimist for a change.

MiF