Hi Smur

look if your Dad can help even with providing an ear to bend when you need one, I say yes. I found out my old - well 59yrs lol - straight laced Mum was actually so practical and loving and supporting. Of course she did say she thought I needed my head read and I was a stupid 'B' for putting my happines at risk, and I was wasn't I.

So she was so non judgemental, and was spot on when she said I would punish myself more than anything anyone else could say or do.

So if your dad can do this for you go for it I say.

The baby has been adorable Smur. But the hourly wake ups are killing me!! Thank God for taking time off right now.
My 18 yr DD has been playing Mum for most of today until we got to the cleaning bottoms and changing nappies.....lol
She asked me' Do all babies poo like this?' in a shocked tone....LMAO sure do my sweet one day & night!!....... I think I see the idea of M fading a bit right now hehe ..especially when I told her I was doing this with her at her age..I got a 'Oh' .

But you know I don't mind at all, there is a great contentment holding a babe & this little cutie is so happy all the time.

Aussie spent more than an hour playing with her until she gave him a big yawn and held out those little chubby arms and just went to sleep in his arms.
I so wish I had the camera ready.

Right now he is with the other two youngsters in the end bed room, lights down low, door mostly closed, telling them ghost stories......on a school night <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

We all know who is going to be getting up at night with them don't we...it won't be me !!

AW--Hi AW, it seems that you are feeling better lately, I am happy for you!!
When do you know for sure if Aussie is leaving? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> How long will it be for, if he does?
You must be having so much fun with that baby!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I love to hold babies, they are so soft and sweet. My oldest daughter has a baby (my grandaughter <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ), she is 17 months. She is adorable, they are coming over today. But my daughter never thought of all the work babies are. She wishes she had waited longer to have her, I told her before having her, of all the sacrifices involved but she did not believe me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Thats good your daughter is seeing how much work is to take care of a baby.
Well AW, take care of yourself and Aussie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
MYRTA

Wow, I'm going to put myself out on a limb. Don't hurt too much with the 2x4s.

Maybe mom is sugesting something? What could show Auzzie more comitment to him on your part?

<small>[ October 26, 2004, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: RAG ]</small>

Hi all -

AW your Mum sounds great !
I did tell my Dad something about our M troubles - nothing specific, but I was glad I did because he was very supportive.

RAG - do you know of any cases where the FWW has become pregnant and it has helped the M? I am wondering if it could really work, or whether a pregnancy would just put extra pressure on an already fragile relationship. Also, there's the future child to think about - is it ethical to have a child when its parent's M is unstable?

I'm replying because it is a thought that has crossed my mind and I am guessing, plenty of others in this situation, but I guess my conclusion was always towards the negative.

AW I guess since you work in child support you might have some views about this?

<small>[ October 26, 2004, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: smur ]</small>

smur,

Because of the difference in time zones (I'm in Missouri), I didn't see your question until late last night. I was going to try to write something profound. However, after thinking about it, the answer comes down to POJA with your husband.

In my case, I wanted more than the two children we had. My first wife cut me off with the excuse that she didn't want any more children. After she became pregnent with OM's child, she asked me to stay with her. Since I didn't want anyone else to be any kind of father to our two children, we remained together. That daughter is fully part of our family and was 35 years old on the 22nd. However, my lingering resentment is that my first wife did not offer to have any more children with me to make up for her betrayal. That would have been a big deposit in my love bank. Her affairs were not the only reason we divorced. When our children were 18, 16, & 11, she decided she wanted to "find herself." As I wrote before, that 11 year old is now 35, and I guess her mother is still looking. She has been through 4 or 5 marriages, and is now living alone.

If we had talked before marriage, or POJAed after, we might have come to a win-win solution. That's why I suggest you talk it over with your husband and share your dreams and hopes.

clunk...still wiring my jaw back into place RAG.......... sort of dropped to the floor as I was reading your post........lol <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Never thought of that one seriously at all. I mean I love kids and well if things were a bit better I would perhaps love to have another child if we both agreed to it. We would really enjoy it in a more mature manner I think now.
Well I would anyway!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I do firmly believe that deciding to have a child has to be a decision based on love & commitment and I believe RAG was thinking of it in this manner. Basically that having Aussie's 3rd child is a complete & absolute demonstration of my love and my commitment to our M. I can understand the reasoning quite clearly.
To be brutally honest I think Aussie would actually stay even if he had decided to leave if I was pregnant.
What sort of M I would end up with though is the question???

However it may not be even a consideration for many others, my work certainly shows that. Some blokes just leave and sometimes never contact the child.

To have a child to keep a family together is not a good idea. It rarely works for one reason.
It is not a good idea to bring a child up in a broken family if at all avoidable, no matter what people like to believe, recent data shows it has immense negative impact on a child.
Of course there are exceptions but I wouldn't like to risk a childs happiness on it.

Where it's not avoidable open honest discussion as the child grows can help, but has to be age relevant & really experts should be involved for advice.
So I really would not want to go through that or force him to stay. Unless he can love me it would just be a waste of time & to me an abuse of the gift of life.

But if the problems work out and the M recovers as we both seem to want, then you never know, I just might surprise you all... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ October 27, 2004, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: aussieswife ]</small>

AW,

As I mentioned in my other post, talk it over with Aussie, IF that is what either of you might want. If you don't want it, don't suggest it. POJA stands for Policy of Joint Agreement; you both agree on anything and everything.

I mentioned my experience as that was how I felt. I am still upset with my first wife for her actions. We never healed from our many problems.

RAG

one day soon I'd love to have that discussion with Aussie.
We have a lot to finish off though & work through to get there.
I don't expect miracles or all things to be fixed or perfect, hey when are they ever?? But we need to commit to each other no matter what comes. I have, he wavers and I can't blame him a bit no matter how that hurts.
But I hope, I love hard and wait as well as I can.

I'm sorry to hear about your first wife I expect it was heartbreaking and extremely painful.
We seem to see so much of that here lately, is it the times do you think or just more becomng exposed as people seek help?

AW,

I think the only difference these days is there is more exposure. Also, more prople are facing their problems in marriages. In the old days, things were just swept under the carpet.

I've read your posts, and I somewhat know your story. I know you must be asking yourself the same question. If you had to get blind drunk, why not just go home, talk to Aussie, and have him comfort you?

My first wife had/has problems she won't admit to. I am now happily married to a wonderful woman. In fact, we've been together 20 years and our 19th aniversary was Sunday.

What regiment is Aussie in? As a retired soldier, I'm always interested. My wife kept busy by trying to help other Army Wives adjust. Of course, your concerns are much higher than what she had to cope with.

It's funny.. I was just thinking of posting my thoughts, that it sounds like someone wants a new baby. But a few others beat me to it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Glad that things are going well.
Where is Aussie anyway? Hasn't posted or anything for awhile now. Guess he's busy with baby poopoo?

Aussie has been enjoying the baby ok but has been at the barracks more often than not right now.
We all hope no decision to deploy is made but I can tell you meeting with the family support group is pretty morose right now.
Big silences and false cheer just seems to make things worse.
But at least we understand each others fears.

He's very much focused on his troops and our M is in limbo I guess, but I don't mind at all. He needs all his attention on his job and I told him I'd stick no matter what. Anything else we will fix and work on when he gets back.

If there is no deployment that will just be an extra blessing. We both seem a bit at peace right now. I've still been seeing the IC & its very helpful.

So we are not moving much but its ok & even when one of us gets bad tempered its not the end of the world. We just work through it.
There's not much worse in the world than an affair to my way of thinking, but wars one of them.

<small>[ October 28, 2004, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: aussieswife ]</small>

Hi AW,

Yes I would agree with you about the war thing - it must be really tough for you knowing he could leave soon.
I wish Howard could know someone personally involved in this kind of stuff before he makes these kind of 'political' decisions.

Well, I've thought some more about the baby stuff you and RAG posted because I guess its been an issue for H and me on and off for years. Before Dday (and before my ONS) we actually were planning to start a family, and part of the reason I knew I had to tell him then was because he had the right to know, especially if we were going to have a family.

But now, I really don't know whether our R will survive this or not. As you said about Aussie, I think my H would also stay if I got pregnant, but to stay in a dead relationship just for the sake of a baby... If I can't see a way for things to improve between us I might even eventually end up the one Plan B-ing. I guess that is just about the furthest thing from a functioning relationship in which you can POJA about having a child! Ok I know, patience, love, no LBing, time....

If there is any doubt, don't do it. That is a lifetime commitment. It doesn't fully end after they move out.

Then there are the grandchildren. (If we knew how much fun grandchildren were, we would have had them first!). Even though my first wife and I have been divorced since 1981, we are still connected through our children and grandchildren.

Therefore, that's why I wrote to POJA. It is a lifetime commitment, and the two of you have to be sure you are ready for it.

AW,

How are you going? Any news about the deployment?

Don't want to change the subject on you with my baby musings. It sounds like you and Aussie are in a temporary kind of truce, I guess until you know about the deployment. Sounds like he is still taking time out for himself - just like the "going back to the cave to process his thoughts" idea that someone posted on the other thread, as a alternative way that men have to deal with stressful situations, rather than talk about it.

I read your post over on the other thread about your confession on Dday and Aussie's reaction. Just wanted to say I can relate totally. Confessing was the scariest thing I've ever done.

My H didn't yell or get violent, but he didn't look at me or speak to me at all for almost a week, and he didn't want to see me at all, which was difficult given our tiny, (Tokyo-sized) flat. Then, he demanded to know every detail... after I told him he then told me calmly that I had completely destroyed our M and my own future.

He is still not interested at all in MC or IC. He seems to have given up on the idea of his sleeping with another woman, but in exchange for giving up on that his resentment of me is back with a vengence. Hmmm...

well no news is good news right now but it is hard to wait you know?

I wonder how eager little Johnny would be if he had to send his son off? Not bloody likely!!

Anyway its putting off the 'Promise me you won't do anyhting stupid' talk with Aussie. I know I'll sound like an idiot but it needs to be said. These army blokes don't react exactly like other people you know...if they did they wouldn't be in the army would they! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

So the truce between us - sounds like a tear jerker song title in there <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> - is holding firm & hes been so busy with his 'work' as far as I know he been too flat out to post unless its from the barracks. Its 3.07 am here now & he not home yet but rang a little while ago to say he would be home soon.

You wouldn't believe who dropped by on Friday arvo, Lena his office sgt dropping off some paperwork he wanted on her way she said to her 'boyfriend'.
Well wanting to be cool and collected I offered her a cup of coffee and we had a quick chat about this & that, ok I admit it I was diggin for info ok?, when she suddenly blurted out you know you are not the only one who stuffed up. I did to with my BF's mate.
Well you could have knocked me down with a feather, I was like a stunned mullet. My visiom of Ms Perfect took a hammering - ouch my jealousy is still showing - and it looks like we have both dug some deep holes for ourselves!

We had a little discussion on that and as I know the people involved it all fits together. So I never really had to worry about her & Aussie- I think - but she is an awful good looking young woman, not someone you would expect to be in the army. But what do I know?

YOu know I was actually going to refer her here but found out they both are doing really well - apparently he was a bit of a player to - and have worked on their relationship for some time since then. Even thinking of getting married.

Now I know I am not just being silly when I say she looks good as DS came home and actually changed into CLEAN clothes to 'casually walk by her ...lol.. haven't seen him move so fast since he was 3 yrs old and thought he was going to miss Play School on the TV!!
Ok ok I will admit it, she was nice and just seems to be a nice person, all right?

So I guess I was just being insecure AGAIN ... I hate that don't you?

Well as you can see I've not got it all together yet & I seem pretty 'up beat' - St Johns Wort Maybe?? - but I'm not getting worse that must mean something you think?

Now Smur your H really has got me thinking you know. I was trying to puzzle out his reasoning and you know what/ I don't think he really has any.
I believe it may have started out as some half baked idea to 'get even' with you, progressed quickly to an idea of an ' open marriage' - at least for him - but the reality has not been as he thought.
So what does he do but turn back to his M and you and his ' how can I punish Smur today' attitude.
Hey I certainly do feel he has the same right as Aussie to be angry and hurt and yes I even accept that they both reacted as badly as we would expect or rather didn't expect. I hope though he can work pass the anger enough to see that MC is required.
I wonder if with all his running around & trying to find 'happiness' if he has ever worked through this anger at all?
MAybe he is right back at the beginning because of this?

Can you start it by yourself and show him you are trying to do something to improve the M?? Then encourge him to attend bit by bit??
I wonder if any of the more experienced MBers here could advise both of us on a sort of Plan A for our BS. It seems theres not much around for us to actually use as tools when we want to keep the M.

Just make sure you look after yourself and don't let the situation get on top of you. I feel there may be some hope here & it is just a matter of a little bit of give by your H. Might have to wait for it though.

Ok have to go as Aussie just drove in and probably has not eaten and is full of coffee. I'll catch up tomorrow.

Bye for now!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi AW,

thanks for your reply - its really great to post and to get your input. It means a hell of a lot more than the advice of someone who has never been in any kind of similar situation, however well meaning they may be.

I agree with you about little Johnny.... I was going to write something ruder before but thought better of it...

As for the 'don't do anything stupid' talk with Aussie, I guess you know whats necessary, but from his posts he sounds pretty reasonable, intelligent, caring and sensible to me. In fact I hate to say it but he has changed my prejudice about members of the armed forces... I know there are a lot of them out there, so please don't hit me with any 2x4s for saying that I half believed the stereotype of gung-ho, brainless etc!

Also that was interesting what you wrote about Lena. I can imagine how shocked you must have been when she said that!! But in a way, it must be a relief that she told you she knows about it and she wanted to confide in you her own A. I guess that shows its pretty clear that she has a good supportive friendship with Aussie but she is not harbouring any secret feelings for Aussie as the poor jilted man!

About your comments re: my H, I agree that he has no plan. I think he's very confused and hurt and has no CLUE about what to do now. Its strange because he's very intelligent, in fact he's a very successful physicist (actually his PhD is in nuclear physics - I know, I know, stereotypes!!).

I am hoping that time is going to change things for him, that he will gradually be able to see that our M is worth his effort too, that its not useless, that he can trust me again, that continually 'punishing' me is not going to help in the long run.
He has said to me in the past that he thinks its great that I am reading so many books about relationships, affairs etc and trying to implement the things I've learned. But when I ask if he wants to read them too or to go to MC, it seems that he thinks its my job alone to do that kind of thing, since all of this is my fault. That may be the case, but our R is the product of both of our actions, feelings, beliefs up until now and also prior to my ONS. I am hoping that eventually he will get this. Trying to be patient and hang in there...

Hello Aussiewife.

Sorry I am coming in at the end here. I just wish and pray that my husband would say those words to me that you have posted. Especially the part "let me in and help you get over this". And the "making love part". Except I am backwards. He had the affair and our sex is nothing near love. Just plain sex. No feeling, no nothing. As if I am filling in his need too! Have him write to me so I can help him through this part. That is the gestures I am dying to hear. But unfortunately, I am not. I feel like I am married to Mr. Potato Head. I am not trying to demean him. In other words, I get absolutely no reaction from him and it hurts.
Keep your attitude going strong and try not to get to frustrated. Patience is the best part of love! Regardless!

Ali~

Hi all,

Hope you're going well. Thanks for your ideas about patience, well I guess its obvious but we still need to remind ourselves constantly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I wonder if any of the more experienced MBers here could advise both of us on a sort of Plan A for our BS. It seems theres not much around for us to actually use as tools when we want to keep the M.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Still applies... ideas for AW and us others in similar situations anyone??

About my H, your comment AW :
[QUOTE] I wonder if with all his running around & trying to find 'happiness' if he has ever worked through this anger at all? MAybe he is right back at the beginning because of this? [QUOTE]

Sadly, I think it might be true. I don't know if he's right at the beginning, but he's not far from it.
I've been reading "men are from Mars, Women from Venus" - its kind of pop psychology and overly simplistic, but some things are useful - it talks a lot about the way men often deal with problems - ie retreating into themselves and not wanting to talk or interact. This book suggests the best thing a partner can do is not try too hard to talk/support/be affectionate if he doesn't seem keen- basically pull back. I guess this works, but maybe not where Sf is concerned - seems to be the opposite advice.

Ali88

I just had such a laugh over that comment, ‘Am I married to Mr Potato Head?’ ..well YES we all are at some time I think. Didn’t you realise that???? LMAO
It seems even though we come at this issue from different sides so to speak, that we have great trouble having our men react on many things.
I think this may be the way men handle the emotional issues differently from us. I mean the more intimate issues here, not anger or pain as such, but how they express and demonstrate the feelings.

I get these long remote silences and then SF that can, well, shake the very foundations, but emotion? I am just never sure of what he feels. I ask and get distant ans that seem ambiguous at best. What does it mean? Perhaps we have such a long way to go. Perhaps he does not want to say. Not sure.
I get hints that he still loves me and that he has great faith in our past and shared experiences, but he does not really say it. I do feel he does not ‘like’ me right now and who can blame him for that?

I ask my MC/IC about this and she says it’s not a bad sign with the SF going on, but don’t expect miracles for some time. Maybe never for me. In my case there does seem to be some of the attitude of ‘you broke it you fix it’ but I know enough to realise now that he needs to work with me to fix what I broke. I’m sure he feels it’s totally unfair. To give him his due he did start off going to our MC/IC and I’m sure it helped him but he decided he needed to ‘go fishing’ ( he wanted a brake from all the sh*t as he says & did go fishing ) and then a week later got his orders.
So we ran out of time.
Life CAN suck at times but I can work at making sure we don’t slip back from where we are.

But it would really be good to have some advice from the experienced Mb’ers on what we could do to use the MB principles to help win our H back…….. I think I may ask this question over in GQ11 as well.

Smur, are there any improvements in your H attitude at all ?

I can only think of doing much like Plan A with him. Showing him that you are the steady rock of the M right now, the person who can give him love and caring, consideration, understanding, even to the extent of acknowledging his own ramblings on the relationship without necessarily agreeing to what he says………he’s certainly not short on brain power so I think it would work with him. You know, the light house thing.
Do you think there is also some confusion with his own values and behaviour here because of his recent wonderings? I somehow feel he has ended up wounding himself more than you in a strange way.

Perhaps after a few weeks of Plan A’ing you can again suggest some MC. Is there any available in Japan you could attend at all?

I do really feel this is a long term deal here for both of us. There won’t be any quick fixes or miracles, we’ll just have to plug away at it one day at a time. Of course the decision to stay M isn’t just ours and we just have to accept that. Don’t particularly like it though.

Hi AW and others,

How are you today? Any more news about Aussie's deployment?
I am ok, a little bit down but in general I've been much calmer for the last week or so.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think this may be the way men handle the emotional issues differently from us. I mean the more intimate issues here, not anger or pain as such, but how they express and demonstrate the feelings.

I get these long remote silences and then SF that can, well, shake the very foundations, but emotion? I am just never sure of what he feels. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In the first 2 months post Dday, when I asked he would say that he was feeling 'empty' or 'nothing'. I think it relates to suppressing negative feelings and not wanting to feel pain, but this is at the expense of also not being able to feel positive feelings either. So maybe in Aussie's case its similar - that he's just not feeling anything at those times?

About my H's attitude - well, he's kind to me, cooks dinner, sometimes makes jokes, SF is good, but, well, its similar. He is just distant and often silent. He doesn't want to talk about feelings (mine or his) or our R. He isn't affectionate. I am at least relieved about his giving up on his idea of wanting an 'open R'. That would definitely have ended our M, and I guess he eventually saw that thats how strongly I felt about it, so it really wasn't an option if he wanted to stay M'd.

I'm also starting to feel that he also has things that he needs to hear from me - things that I feel went wrong in our M before my ONS. I mean, I feel that we can't really recover until we can also talk about that, because in my case i think it was at least partly the cause. Thats my reason for wantign MC. I will also see if I can maybe just think more clearly about what he needs to hear, and maybe at some point we can discuss it ourselves without MC.

Maybe its just too early for those kind of discussions, and as you say, don't expect miracles, take one day at a time, and be patient, loving and understanding. I think he's also maybe suppressing his resentment and it sometimes comes out as passive aggression. I think he doesn't want MC because he thinks that he will be 'blamed'. I am not interested in blaming him at all - but I think faults and problems on both sides eventually need to be recognised and changed. Interestingly, in the "Men are from Mars..." book, it also mentions that men tend to hear a discussion of problems as blaming, and it can be sensitive and difficult.
Its a long path.