Stanley- one more thought for you: this is cut and pasted from this very website- written by Dr. Harley:

" We are all wired to have an affair. We can all fall in love with someone of the opposite sex if that person meets one of our emotional needs. If you don't think it can happen to you because of your conviction or will-power, you are particularly vulnerable to an affair. And if you think your spouse would never have an affair, you are also vulnerable. "

Just something to think about.

Sadfww:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I will admit that I *thought* I was in love during my period of waywardness, but I know I wasn't. And that was the only period of my life that I thought I loved another man.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For folks who never had an affair this is SO HARD to swallow. My wife was head over heels over OM. I am talking about 15-20 phone calls a day and countless emails, IM sessions, ect (they were long distance).

When OM came to visit it was frantic sex, the kind where OM had already taken off his clothes before Myrta knocked on his hotel room door------------------ Myrta had already removed her underwear in the parking lot.

I saw how they professed their love for each other in the emails I intercepted. This was VERY intense. Myrta kept a tee-shirt OM wore so she could smell his scent. She read and re-read all his hand-written notes. Lets face it --------- this was INTENSE.

Now you and most FWWs tell me this was not real love. BTW, my wife says the same thing. I don’t know------- for someone who has never been thru an affair this is rather unbelievable. I told my wife that if I ever fell like that for another woman I would be a goner. How did you give up the love of your life? BTW, reading the book “Surviving an Affair” has given me plenty of answers. But------ the emotions of the affair?????? Wow-- those were soooooooo intense.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> " We are all wired to have an affair. We can all fall in love with someone of the opposite sex if that person meets one of our emotional needs. If you don't think it can happen to you because of your conviction or will-power, you are particularly vulnerable to an affair. And if you think your spouse would never have an affair, you are also vulnerable. "</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess my wife always satisfied my ENs. I never craved a relationship so someone could give me those ENs. However, I would love to have a harem if I could do that without been deceitful. To me the stumbling block for an affair is that one must be deceitful. If I could have an affair without deceit I could go for it.

What do youn think?

<small>[ October 14, 2004, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong> Sadfww:
Now you and most FWWs tell me this was not real love. BTW, my wife says the same thing. I don’t know------- for someone who has never been thru an affair this is rather unbelievable. I told my wife that if I ever fell like that for another woman I would be a goner. How did you give up the love of your life? BTW, reading the book “Surviving an Affair” has given me plenty of answers. But------ the emotions of the affair?????? Wow-- those were soooooooo intense.

What do youn think? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lust doesn't equal love.

I think this explanation is helpful- or at least I found it rang true for me. (Stole it from another post)

LOVE DEFINED:

Love is too large, too deep ever to be truly understood or measured or limited within the framework of words. In an effort to explain it, therefore, love has been divided into various categories: eros, philia, agape; perfect love and imperfect love, and so on.

I am presuming to give a single definition of love, again with the awareness that is likely to be in some way or ways inadequate. I define love thus: The will to extend one’s self for the purpose of nurturing one’s own or another’s spiritual growth.

When we love someone our love becomes demonstrable or real only through our exertion – through the fact that for that someone (or for oneself) we take an extra step or walk an extra mile. Love is not effortless. To the contrary, love is effortful.

By use of the word ‘will’ I have attempted to transcend the distinction between desire and action. Desire is not necessarily translated into action. Will is desire of sufficient intensity that it is translated into action. I therefore conclude that the desire to love is not itself love.

Love is as love does. Will also implies choice. We do not have to love. We choose to love. No matter how much we may think we are loving, if we are in fact not loving, it is because we have chosen not to love and therefore do not love despite our good intentions. On the other hand, whenever we do actually exert ourselves in the cause of spiritual growth, it is because we have chosen to do so. The choice to love has been made.

FALLING IN ‘LOVE’:

Of all the misconceptions about love the most powerful and pervasive is the belief that ‘falling in love’ is love or at least one of the manifestations of love. It is a potent misconception, because falling in love is subjectively experienced in a very powerful fashion as an experience of love. When a person falls in love what he or she certainly feels is ‘I love him/her’. But two problems are immediately apparent.

The first is that the experience of falling in love is specifically a sex-linked erotic experience. We do not fall in love with our children even though we may love them very deeply. We do not fall in love with our friends of the same sex – unless we are homosexually oriented – even though we may care for them greatly. We fall in love only when we are consciously or unconsciously sexually motivated.

The second problem is that the experience of falling in love is invariably temporary. No matter whom we fall in love with, we sooner or later fall out of love if the relationship continues long enough. This is not to say that we invariably cease loving the person with whom we fell in love. But it is to say that the feeling of ecstatic lovingness that characterizes the experience of falling in love always passes. The honeymoon always ends. The bloom of the romance always fades.

By my use of the word ‘real’ I am implying that the perception that we are loving when we fall in love is a false perception – that our subjective sense of lovingness is an illusion. By stating that it is when a couple falls out of love they may begin to really love I am also implying that real love does not have its roots in a feeling of love.

To the contrary, real love often occurs in a context in which the feeling of love is lacking, when we act lovingly despite the fact that we don’t feel loving. Assuming the reality of the definition of love with which we started, the experience of ‘falling’ in love is not real love for the several reasons that follow:

Falling in love is not an act of will. It is not a conscious choice. Not matter how open to or eager for it we may be, the experience may still elude us. Contrarily, the experience may capture us at times when we are definitely not seeking it, when it is inconvenient and undesirable. We are as likely to fall in love with someone with whom we are obviously ill matched as with someone more suitable. Indeed, we may not even like or admire the object of our passion, yet, try as we might, we may not be able to fall in love with a person whom we deeply respect and with whom a deep relationship would be in all ways desirable.

This is not to say that the experience of falling in love is immune to discipline. Psychiatrists, for instance, frequently fall in love with their patients, just as their patients fall in love with them, yet out of duty to the patient and their role they are usually able to abort the collapse of their ego boundaries and give up the person as a romantic object. The struggle and suffering of the discipline involved may be enormous. But discipline and will can only control the experience; they cannot create it. We can choose how to respond to the experience of falling of love, but we cannot choose the experience itself.

Having proclaimed that the experience of ‘falling in love’ is a sort of illusion which in no way constitutes real love, let me conclude by shifting into reverse and pointing out that falling in love is in fact very, very close to real love. Indeed, the misconception that falling in love is a type of love is so potent precisely because it contains a grain of truth.

LOVE IS NOT A FEELING:

I have said that love is an action, an activity. This leads to the final major misconception of love which needs to be addressed. Love is not a feeling. Many, many people possessing a feeling of love and even acting in response to that feeling act in all manner of unloved and destructive ways. On the other hand, a genuinely loving individual will often take loving and constructive action toward a person he or she consciously dislikes, actually feeling no love toward the person at the time and perhaps even finding the person repugnant in some way.


Genuine love, on the other hand, implies commitment and the exercise of wisdom. When we are concerned for someone’s spiritual growth, we know that a lack of commitment is likely to be harmful and that commitment to that person is probably necessary for us to manifest our concern effectively.

As has been mentioned, couples sooner or later always fall out of love, and it is at the moment when the mating instinct has run its course that the opportunity for genuine love begins. It is when the spouses no longer feel like being in each other’s company always, when they would rather be elsewhere some of the time, that their love begins to be tested and will be found to be present or absent.

The key word in the distinction is ‘will’. I have defined love as the will to extend oneself for the purpose of nurturing one’s own or another’s spiritual growth. Genuine love is volitional rather than emotional. The person who truly love does so because of a decision to love. This person has made a commitment to be loving whether or not the loving feeling is present. If it is, so much the better; but if it isn’t, the commitment to love, the will to love, still stands and is still exercised.

Conversely, it is not only possible but necessary for a loving person to avoid acting on feelings of love. I may meet a woman who strongly attracts me, whom I feel like loving, but because it would be destructive to my marriage to have an affair at that time, I will say vocally or in the silence of my heart, ‘I feel like loving you, but I am not going to’. My feelings of love may be unbounded, but my capacity to be loving is limited. I therefore must choose the person on whom to focus my capacity to love, toward whom to direct my will to love. True love is not a feeling by which we are overwhelmed. It is a committed, thoughtful decision.

The common tendency to confuse love with feelings of love allows people all manner of self-deception. It is clear that there may be a self-serving quality in this tendency to confuse love with the feeling of love; it is easy and not at all unpleasant to find evidence of love in one’s feelings. It may be difficult and painful to search for evidence of love in one’s actions. But because true love is an act of will that often transcends ephemeral feelings of love, it is correct to say, ‘Love is as love does’.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> LOVE IS NOT A FEELING:
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Got it!

I have known my wife since age 17--- she has been my only sexual partner (I am 53). I am quite certain I love her --- no doubt. However, I am also in lust with her. Particularly since D-day. Retrospectively I always felt some lust as I enjoyed making love to her.

My wife said to OM after D-day. I must choose my H because I have known him all my life and he is the father of my children. I never told you (the OM) that I hated my H.

Retrospectively she was indifferent to me, which may be worse than hate.

In any event:

Do you think she will ever have lust for me again?

Obviously she must love me as above, but I would welcome some lust from her part. She had lust for OM who is not as good-looking, tall, or in as good a shape as I am. Is there any hope?

Do you have lust for your husband?
How did you get it?

I will tell you a little secret:

If I left home and return six months later my wife would likely regain her lust.

BTW, GREAT WORDS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong>
Do you think she will ever have lust for me again?

Obviously she must love me as above, but I would welcome some lust from her part. She had lust for OM who is not as good-looking, tall, or in as good a shape as I am. Is there any hope?

Do you have lust for your husband?
How did you get it?

I will tell you a little secret:

If I left home and return six months later my wife would likely regain her lust.

BTW, GREAT WORDS </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stanley- a few things. I'm going to give you what MY experience was- obviously I don't know if this is true for your wife or not, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Immediately after Dday- and for quite some time thereafter- I had no lust for ANYONE. The mere thought of sex made me ill- basically dirty. I never turned my H away, but I have to admit that on occasions I practically gritted my teeth. Pretty horrible, huh? Now, keep in mind that I was 9 months pg on Dday- (the A's - yes 2- had been over with for 3 years) and was pretty hormonal then - and for a period thereafter. However, I as so full of remorse- so plagued with guilt that "sex" in its entirety was tainted.

I got over it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I don't know if Myrta is having any of these issues but I thought I'd throw it out there.

Ok, next question- am I in lust with my H? YES! I have to admit that until the past year I don't know if I would have said yes. I still wasn't really enjoying sex until this past year. Some of that is possibly attributable to a/d - and to the fact that we have 3 small rugrats running around our house. Luckily, something (don't know what) changed this year- and now I am very much in lust for- and in love with- my H. You know, I take back the "don't know what"- I think some of the change has come from myself- I made a decision this year to really try to work on our marriage. I didn't get too far until I came here- but nonetheless, my feelings for my H have been growing again in ALL ways once I have started ACTING and showing him my Love.

Hmmm...that is interesting. I didn't even really realize that until now!

Ok, next question- Is there hope that your wife will be in "lust" with you again?

ABSOLUTELY! She may be in *shock* at the moment. She may be disenchanted with sex- but she IS with you- and has told you that she loves you. For women- this is BIG, Stanley. Love- and lust- are tied together in women's minds - which may explain why we get confused when we're attracted to another man - we often fool ourselves into thinking it's love because of the lust.

She loves YOU!

Please read this:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5066_qa.html

Dr. H is great, isn't he!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Immediately after D-day- and for quite some time thereafter- I had no lust for ANYONE. The mere thought of sex made me ill- basically dirty. I never turned my H away, but I have to admit that on occasions I practically gritted my teeth. Pretty horrible, huh?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmm----- rough on you, but rough on H as well.

On D-day my wife wanted to make love to me within minutes after I told her I knew the truth. I pushed her away I could not stand her touch, however we made love 1-2 times a day from D-day 2 thru D-day 25. Then she lost her libido because I LB her on a regular basis by saying very nasty things about OM and by being so angry. I said some ugly things to her and this took a toll on her. She was in heavy withdrawal for the 1st three weeks but, never let me know about it. Her love making was very intense and passionate. Then we hit a road block and I could feel it was hard for her to get aroused. Nevertheless she wanted to please me, but I was not happy with her intensity. After another month her libido started to come back, but I must say it has not been anything like shortly after D-day. My wife thinks her sexuality back them was due to the "high" of the affair. Right now she seems to be close to what we were doing before she started the affair----- about twice a week.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">However, I as so full of remorse- so plagued with guilt that "sex" in its entirety was tainted.
I got over it. I don't know if Myrta is having any of these issues but I thought I'd throw it out there.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She has remorse, but she will not talk much about it. I ask her about the withdrawal and she claims is much better, however, last telephone contact with OM was only one and a half months ago. She does not like to talk about issues that may cause me pain.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, next question- am I in lust with my H? YES! I have to admit that until the past year I don't know if I would have said yes. I still wasn't really enjoying sex until this past year. Some of that is possibly attributable to a/d - and to the fact that we have 3 small rugrats running around our house.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would say it is practically impossible to duplicate the lust of the affair. After all you are dealing with a new body within the Disneyland atmosphere. Like you said, there are no baby's to watch in "Disney and OM" land.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't even really realize that until now!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Who was the better man? OM or your husband?

It seems to me that for a WW to leave the marriage the OM must be vastly superior to the H in all aspects. Romance ENs is not enough! Was that your case?

I know for a fact my wife's OM was weak in all aspects except the smooth talk. However, I am amazed at how far these OM get with the smooth talk--------- when I found out about my wife and OM I was in shock! The OM was well below my wife in terms of looks. So his smooth talk must have been QUITE good!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She may be disenchanted with sex- but she IS with you- and has told you that she loves you. For women- this is BIG, Stanley. Love- and lust- are tied together in women's minds - which may explain why we get confused when we're attracted to another man - we often fool ourselves into thinking it's love because of the lust.
She loves YOU!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well thanks------ you make me feel so good! Maybe you can post to Myrta about these issues

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong> Who was the better man? OM or your husband?

It seems to me that for a WW to leave the marriage the OM must be vastly superior to the H in all aspects. Romance ENs is not enough! Was that your case? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ummm..gulp...

This is really hard for me to write about. You see, my affair(s) (ouch) were never exposed to anyone but my H. Both were over 3 years by the time I confessed....and NOBODY else ever knew (at least that I know of.) So....

The two men that I was involved in- NOT AT THE SAME TIME..over a period of two years were DEFINITELY NOT better men then my H. My H is smarter, kinder, more generous, more loving, more moral and essentially a better human being then either of them. I WOULD have KILLED both of them if I had had to live with them on a daily basis. However, I WAS in serious *lust* with both of them. Let me give you a bit of background so perhaps this makes more sense.

I was 16 when I met my H. I had dated a few boys (!!!!) by then, but at 16- how much experience can you really have??? I left to go to college when I was 17 3 states away. H was 4 years older then me and told me that if we did not remain exclusive that we could not continue to see each other at all. I agreed- because I knew that I didn't want to lose him.

I went to school 10 hours away for 3 1/2 years and was faithful to him apart from one kiss - which I told him about immediately and which I cried many tears over. This may not sound like such an "Achievement" - but do remember that I was young, attended a college where we had no rules, was in a sorority and was 10 hours away from my boyfriend. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> We were engaged in my sophomore year when I was 18. We married immediately after I finished school and I began attending lawschool.

During this time period when we were first married we met several other couples who were all recently married with no children. We started spending time together and before we knew it were spending almost all of our weekends together. They (and my H) liked to play strip poker, go skinny dipping etc etc. I will state firmly that I didn't like any of the above but went along with the status quo- although I was generally the dissenting voice. H and the "boys" often went to strip clubs. We all frequently drank too much and crashed at one anothers homes.

It sounds like college- doesn't it! In a way, that was the type of atmoshpehere we all had created.

The first OM essentially propositioned me. He told me I was beautiful- that he was in *love* with me, that he wanted to be with me./..etc etc etc. I fell for it- hook line and sinker and we started an A that was mostly messing around with 3 actual sexual interludes over a year period. Towards the end I caught my H being "entertained" by OM's wife- nude dancing.
As that ended, the OTHER OM, shocked the hell out of me by kissing me, telling me I was beautiful and that he wanted to be with me. Again....I was needy and stupid. Nothing happened immediately, but he was persistent and over the next couple of months we started also- messing around (1st A was done by this time.) We had actual sex one time....and that was it.

So...does this paint a very disgusting immoral picture? Yes. I should have known better. I should have been on guard- but in the situation we were in I actually (laugh please) managed to convince myself that H really wouldn't care b/c things were so *different* among all of us. Yuck. I was stupid, naive and well...slutty.

The second A ended in 1996 and I am glad for each passing year between now and then.

Now for your real question. I had extreme lust for both OM's. I think, however, it was in large part due to the attention they paid me- and what they said to me. My H has never been overly affectionate or flirtatious. The affirmation that they both gave me that I was an attractive woman pretty much knocked me off my feet. Both were also very experienced with women as my H wasn't- (he had been with a number of women- just nothing like the other 2).

So....they did give me something my H didn't- they validated me as a sexually desireable woman which my H did not- and which he unfortunately still doesn't really. I'm working on changing that.

Does this answer your question? Too much info.? Probably..

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong>
Well thanks------ you make me feel so good! Maybe you can post to Myrta about these issues </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stanley- I would be more then happy to talk with Myrta anytime that she is willing! I have a feeling that right now she doesn't like me too much however.

Sadfww:

Gee it is hard for me to imagine how those two relationships caused so much turmoil in you. Sounds like you only had actual sex about four times between the two OMs. I must assume this was mostly an EA.

Myrta’s affair was with an exclassmate from HS she met thru classmates.com. They were EA for a whole year mostly via internet and phone. (long distance relationship). Second year was PA when Myrta would fly to his city or OM would fly in. Initially they saw each other every couple of months, but at the end it was more like every couple of weeks. OM would stay in town for about three days and in one day they probably had more sex than you did with all your OMs the whole time you were seeing them. Their relationship was very intense and passionate. That is why I am so jealous of the fact that I cannot compete with that.

The romance was so intense that I was puzzled when Myrta told me she wanted to stay married to me on D-day. I told her that I had read the emails----------- I knew how much she loved OM. Nevertheless she was resolute and dumped OM instantly. I have to give her a lot of credit for that. However I kept LBing her by telling her to leave the house to go live with the OM. I was really bad------- I said many nasty things and even said her worst punishment would be to actually live with the OM. I think that at a subconscious level I wanted her to leave me for the OM so I wouldn’t have to struggle with the “I want stay married/I want a divorce”. dilemma that BHs commonly face shortly after D-day.

As for your situation-----

I apologize when I said something about flaws. You were quite young and hanging with a crowd that was on that vibe, It also seems that your H was enabling this or that he was quite detached. I certainly would not have allowed Myrta into such situations. Please don’t take this as a critique to your H. But I was fairly attentive to Myrta even thou I met her when I was 17. As you know she waited for 30 years of marriage before she went wayward------------ but when she did----------- she really did.

Her OM was not hot stuff. He had so many flaws that I would spend days tormenting Myrta about OMs defects. A bad mistake from my part!

Personal question:

How often you make love to your husband?

How much attraction you have right now? Is it close to waht you felt for OMs?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong>

Gee it is hard for me to imagine how those two relationships caused so much turmoil in you. Sounds like you only had actual sex about four times between the two OMs. I must assume this was mostly an EA. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is probably true, Stanley. But you see- when the fog lifted I was absolutely horrified to find what I was capable of doing. Horrified. And I have been trying to come to grips with it internally for the last 8 years. This forum is actually a huge huge relief for me....I have not been able to talk about this with anyone- as know one really knows anything besides H.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong>
Their relationship was very intense and passionate. That is why I am so jealous of the fact that I cannot compete with that.
The romance was so intense that I was puzzled when Myrta told me she wanted to stay married to me on D-day. I told her that I had read the emails----------- I knew how much she loved OM. Nevertheless she was resolute and dumped OM instantly. I have to give her a lot of credit for that.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stanley- please listen to me when I say this:

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO COMPETE- YOU HAVE ALREADY "WON".

Myrta chose YOU Stanley. NOt the OM. As you said- she dumped him IMMEDIATELY.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong>

However I kept LBing her by telling her to leave the house to go live with the OM. I was really bad------- I said many nasty things and even said her worst punishment would be to actually live with the OM. I think that at a subconscious level I wanted her to leave me for the OM so I wouldn’t have to struggle with the “I want stay married/I want a divorce”. dilemma that BHs commonly face shortly after D-day.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, Stanley- you are human after all. You know, it used to be a defense to murder for a husband to find his wife with another man. What has astounded me since coming to this site is the willingness that so many BS show here to move on, to forgive- and to continue to love the spouse that hurt them so much. I think Myrta understands that you were hurting and in pain when you said what you did.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong>

As for your situation-----

I apologize when I said something about flaws. You were quite young and hanging with a crowd that was on that vibe, It also seems that your H was enabling this or that he was quite detached. I certainly would not have allowed Myrta into such situations. Please don’t take this as a critique to your H. But I was fairly attentive to Myrta even thou I met her when I was 17. As you know she waited for 30 years of marriage before she went wayward------------ but when she did----------- she really did.

Her OM was not hot stuff. He had so many flaws that I would spend days tormenting Myrta about OMs defects. A bad mistake from my part!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well Stanley...those were the *excuses* that I made to myself. But at the end of the day, I bear the responsiblity for my actions. What H did- or didn't do- is irrelevant as far as determining who is responsible for the As- that's me and me alone. He has some nasty things to say about my OMs defects as well- and the thing is, that he was completely right when he did say it. He is twice the man either of the OMs were.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong>

Personal question:

How often you make love to your husband?

How much attraction you have right now? Is it close to waht you felt for OMs? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Answer to the first question- not nearly as much as I want to! Perhaps only 1-2 times a week. I'm working hard to increase that number. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Seriously, H and I have had a lot of problems these last number of years due in large part to my behavior- not necessarily my A's- but my own internal reaction to my A's.... I went through severe depression and anxiety (I still take medication for both) and worse- I began to respond to my H with attacks as my perception of what HIS perception of me was skewed. I took everything he said as criticism. So...simply, I stopped Lb'ing 2 months ago- and it has paid off tremendously. Now I am trying to rekindle passion and intimacy in our M. (Long winded reply- sorry).

Second question...The attraction for H is definitely growing. It's hard to really compare as this is quite a different relationship (i.e. it IS a relationship and not meetings in fogland.) I am definitely becoming more and more re-attracted to H lately, though- the more I STRIVE to bring back my M and to make my H fall in love with me again, the more attraction I feel for him. Does that make any sense?

Sadww-
I just finished reading those two pages now. I must say you sound so level headed and mature. Wow, I am really impressed with you. You are still so young, and yet you talk so wisely. YOu are doing fine, and everything will be perfect very soon. Your husband is very lucky!
You were so young when you stray, those were foolish mistakes. But you learned so much from those mistakes. YOu became a much better person.
I can see why my husband loves your posts. YOu have helped him a lot with your wise words. I do admire you and hope to be just like you!
Myrta

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Second question...The attraction for H is definitely growing. It's hard to really compare as this is quite a different relationship (i.e. it IS a relationship and not meetings in fogland.) I am definitely becoming more and more re-attracted to H lately, though- the more I STRIVE to bring back my M and to make my H fall in love with me again, the more attraction I feel for him. Does that make any sense?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This may sound strange, but I have never lost attraction for my wife despite a marriage of 31 years. I might have fallen into that comfortable zone where love is relaxed and not intense and where there is no adrenaline rush. My wife interpreted this as neglect or no romance and hence she went after OM. As you said this may simply be a manifestation of low self-esteem. Or whatever------ who knows?

My dilemma is the fact that I have to deal with a wife who was highly attracted and in lust with OM. This is compounded by the fact that I know for sure OM is a very mediocre man. Therefore, as you can imagine I don’t feel too good about this and it certainly assaults by self-esteem which according to my wife has always been quite good.

I am not sure what to do about this? I am not even sure if my wife will ever be the same. At 53 this is not a pretty thing to endure. I don’t want to be single again at my age and therefore I have to seek a solution. If I was a young guy I might have done something else. This is really confusing. The other thing is that Myrta simply refuses to discuss these issues so I am alone trying to solve the puzzle.

Stanley---You said it "I was attracted and in lust with the OM" I WAS!!! Not today!!
No, I will never BE

the wife of before, because I have changed, yes. But I hope MY change its for the better. I hope we both have changed with my mistake. It will be the only way to make our marriage much better than before. We should treasure our marriage, and dont take little things for granted. Yes, I might not be yet like you want me to be, but I am getting there. I will get there because I LOVE YOU!

myrta

<small>[ October 15, 2004, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This may sound strange, but I have never lost attraction for my wife despite a marriage of 31 years. I might have fallen into that comfortable zone where love is relaxed and not intense and where there is no adrenaline rush. My wife interpreted this as neglect or no romance and hence she went after OM. As you said this may simply be a manifestation of low self-esteem. Or whatever------ who knows?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stanley- have you and Myrta ever done the EN quiz on this site? Maybe she needs more romance in her everyday life. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Obviously her A was a wake up call for both of you. The beauty of this, however, is that you NOW have the opportunity to build your marriage together- to consciously work on filling each other's needs.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My dilemma is the fact that I have to deal with a wife who was highly attracted and in lust with OM. This is compounded by the fact that I know for sure OM is a very mediocre man. Therefore, as you can imagine I don’t feel too good about this and it certainly assaults by self-esteem which according to my wife has always been quite good.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ahh...but see Stanley, her lust for OM had VERY LITTLE do with what he looked like - or how good a person he is. He provided her with the romance/escape that she needed (if that was the EN that she was starved for.) This is good news for you, Stanley. Myrta already LOVES you. You do not have to compete with the OM. Really...all you have to do is work on making sure you are meeting her needs. (And she needs to work on filling yours obviously.) This is NOT A competition between you and the OM. This is about you and Myrta.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not sure what to do about this? I am not even sure if my wife will ever be the same. At 53 this is not a pretty thing to endure. I don’t want to be single again at my age and therefore I have to seek a solution. If I was a young guy I might have done something else. This is really confusing. The other thing is that Myrta simply refuses to discuss these issues so I am alone trying to solve the puzzle. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ask Myrta if she would be willing to take the EN quiz...and Stanley, Myrta may not be the *same*- but I am willing to bet that this experience will help her grow- and possibly to become and even better person. Your marriage won't be the same either- hopefully it will be better.

<small>[ October 15, 2004, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: Sadfww ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Myrta:
<strong> Sadww-
I just finished reading those two pages now. I must say you sound so level headed and mature. Wow, I am really impressed with you. You are still so young, and yet you talk so wisely. YOu are doing fine, and everything will be perfect very soon. Your husband is very lucky!
You were so young when you stray, those were foolish mistakes. But you learned so much from those mistakes. YOu became a much better person.
I can see why my husband loves your posts. YOu have helped him a lot with your wise words. I do admire you and hope to be just like you!
Myrta </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta- simply- Thank You.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ahh...but see Stanley, her lust for OM had VERY LITTLE do with what he looked like - or how good a person he is. He provided her with the romance/escape that she needed (if that was the EN that she was starved for.) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But, I would like to have that lust!

I am also concerned that for two years this OM was the center of my wife’s attraction. According to what I have been told by other FWWs and JL I was not even in the picture. That is a hard pill to swallow and somehow I must find a way to assimilate all that humiliation.

BTW, up until this day OM probably thinks my wife decided to stay with me to be a very unhappy woman for the rest of her life. I am sure he thinks HE IS THE ONE AND ONLY who could make her happy and give her those ENs. He probably thinks that Myrta choose unhappiness for the well being of the kids.

I read the 1st few chapters of the Surviving an Affair book by Dr, Harley. In the book the woman having the affair could do so because the husband was such a great provider and trustful person. I must say that my wife’s relationship with the OM was basically facilitated by me. I provided all the funds so she could get away and fly to where OM lived including rental cars, hotels ,ect. When OM came to my city he found a WW who did not have to work and could dedicate all of her time to him. OM also borrowed money from my wife to finance his trips (he was broke and of course never paid the money back). I was very trusting and never checked phone bills hotel receipts, and where money was going. I have never done that-------- it is not my style.

Was he a loser? IMO- he was a major loser, but nevertheless he won my wife’s heart and I am not sure I can get her back. Therefore-------- I feel low. Yeah, you can say “she loves you”, but I guess we go back to your definition of love. It is a conscious decision that makes all the sense in the world since life with OM is impossible. He may be good at providing romance in a fantasy setting, but I would venture to say he would fail in everything else. BTW, his former OW said OM was a dud even in the romantic department. So there is a possibility OM only functions well in the setting of an affair.

At this point the only thing that makes me better from day to day Is Myrta’s affection. Whenever I don’t get enough I feel I go backwards. That is the dilemma.

Ok, Stanley...I do have some thoughts. I honestly don't know if I'm hurting more then helping with my ramblings to you- so obviously ignore me if you want to.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong> [QUOTE] But, I would like to have that lust! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you WILL have it again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong> [QUOTE]
I am also concerned that for two years this OM was the center of my wife’s attraction. According to what I have been told by other FWWs and JL I was not even in the picture. That is a hard pill to swallow and somehow I must find a way to assimilate all that humiliation. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, this is very hard, Stanley. I can only begin to imagine some of the feelings that BS go through. I know that when I think about how I hurt my H I want to weep. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> You will get through it, however, and each day will get better.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong> [QUOTE]
BTW, up until this day OM probably thinks my wife decided to stay with me to be a very unhappy woman for the rest of her life. I am sure he thinks HE IS THE ONE AND ONLY who could make her happy and give her those ENs. He probably thinks that Myrta choose unhappiness for the well being of the kids.

I read the 1st few chapters of the Surviving an Affair book by Dr, Harley. In the book the woman having the affair could do so because the husband was such a great provider and trustful person. I must say that my wife’s relationship with the OM was basically facilitated by me. I provided all the funds so she could get away and fly to where OM lived including rental cars, hotels ,ect. When OM came to my city he found a WW who did not have to work and could dedicate all of her time to him. OM also borrowed money from my wife to finance his trips (he was broke and of course never paid the money back). I was very trusting and never checked phone bills hotel receipts, and where money was going. I have never done that-------- it is not my style.

Was he a loser? IMO- he was a major loser,</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, I think we can safely say that in your opinion, OM was a rotten stinking loser. I would be shocked if you had any other opinion of him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong> [QUOTE]
but nevertheless he won my wife’s heart and I am not sure I can get her back. Therefore-------- I feel low. Yeah, you can say “she loves you”, but I guess we go back to your definition of love. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is the point where we aren't connecting.

He did NOT WIN your wife's HEART, Stanley. He didn't. He fulfilled an emotional need that she had. She did not love him. You can do the SAME THING- fulfill that need. Would you think about doing the EN quiz? And asking Myrta to do it as well?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong> [QUOTE]

It is a conscious decision that makes all the sense in the world since life with OM is impossible. He may be good at providing romance in a fantasy setting, but I would venture to say he would fail in everything else. BTW, his former OW said OM was a dud even in the romantic department. So there is a possibility OM only functions well in the setting of an affair.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep- he's a rotten stinking loser. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong> [QUOTE]
At this point the only thing that makes me better from day to day Is Myrta’s affection. Whenever I don’t get enough I feel I go backwards. That is the dilemma. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What does her affection do for you- i.e. why do you feel you go backwards when you don't have enough affection from Myrta in a particular day?
Have you told her WHY you need her right now be affectionate to you? Or have you only expressed anger or sadness when she wasn't as affectionate to you as you wanted?

I'm going to push the EN quiz again...take it. I think it will help (for what my thoughts are worth.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What does her affection do for you- i.e. why do you feel you go backwards when you don't have enough affection from Myrta in a particular day?
Have you told her WHY you need her right now be affectionate to you? Or have you only expressed anger or sadness when she wasn't as affectionate to you as you wanted? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have told her at nauseum that I need lots of affection. No-------- I am not a needy insecure guy. However, I realized very early on that the only thing that makes me feel better about everything is my wife. Nothing else has that effect on me. From day one I told Myrta that she was the only one that could make me better and a happy again. Her answer was: “That is an overwhelming responsibility, I am not sure I can do that”.., JL basically told Myrta the same thing--- he said she held ALL THE POWER and that her actions could make everything better if she was willing to do so. However, this lead to a confrontation with JL because Myrta feels she was judged too harshly.

Sadfww------- why are WWs so difficult? If I had been a WH I would bend over backwards to do whatever I needed to save the marriage. Instead WWs get all tangled up and close down the communication door. Initially I had to beg to get my wife’s passwords and to change phone numbers. I would have done that ASAP as a sign of good faith. If BW wanted to get details I would give them without hesitation. If she wanted to say OW was a piece of s---t I would agree! Why must all WW defend OM so much? It drives me nuts!

Then there is the other side of the coin. Why do WWs come back to a husband for whom they feel nothing other than that non-lusty love (a conscious action)? Is this all related to low self-esteem? I think men are different- I would be gone if I was a WH.

In the end coming back to the BH is a sign of insecurity------- don’t you think? A highly secure woman would probably take the risk with the OM. Myrta said so herself when she was in the throes of withdrawal. The idea of living with OM was attractive, but she could not take a risk with an unknown. It is not nice knowing one gets the price because one can provide security rather than lust. That is the struggle!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong> From day one I told Myrta that she was the only one that could make me better and a happy again. Her answer was: “That is an overwhelming responsibility, I am not sure I can do that”.., </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stanley, if my H had ever told me that I would have run for the hills. First, understand that NOBODY can MAKE you be happy again- except yourself.

This says it better then I did:

You Are Responsible for Your Personal Happiness.

Have you listened to any love song lately -- or even before today's music? "I'll be so lost without you…" "You're my happiness…" "You're the only one to make my life complete…" Yada yada yada. It's an immature and unrealistic expectation that society has given us. Find the perfect man or woman of your dreams, and you'll be happy. Buy this car, this perfume, this kind of clothing, and you'll be happy. Happiness comes from external forces, according to the media and advertising.

The only realistic source of happiness lies within ourselves. And we make that choice of whether or not we'll be happy. In his book, "The Six Pillars of Self-esteem," Nathaniel Branden says, "…One of the characteristics of immaturity is the belief that it is someone else's job to make me happy -- much as it once was my parents' job to keep me alive."

Happiness is not based on condition: If I only weren't blind, disabled, etc., I'd be happy; if I only had a million dollars, I'd be happy; if I looked like ----, then I'd be happy; if I were thinner, blonder, taller, shorter or ... I'd be happy. No you wouldn't. Think of all the unhappy rich people or famous people you know or have read about who seem like they had it all. Are they happy? In many cases, no. Many of them drink too much, drug too much, eat too much, have too much sex and other kinds of excesses -- all trying to find their way to their own personal happiness. And, in the end, some of them have even killed themselves because they couldn't find happiness or peace of mind.

When you take full responsibility for your own personal happiness, it's empowering. You place your life back in your own hands. It's like driving a car; you steer to where you're going. You navigate the bumps and the bends in the road. You take responsibility for maintaining and keeping the car in top shape. Even if you do get stranded, you're prepared. Happiness is like that. You're not always going to be happy.

That's a fact of life. Things happen. You acquire a disability in the middle of your life. You have a fight with your spouse, your children behave like aliens from another planet when you're out in public, you get downsized from your job or get a bad performance review, someone doesn't like you etc.

That's life. It happens, but you don't have to always carry Atlas' rock on your shoulders and be miserable. You have a choice. You can choose to be happy and unleash the happiness within you. Or you can choose to be miserable and unhappy and have a perpetual chip on your shoulder.


Secondly, that is a HUGE responsibility to throw at Myrta. Instead of telling her that she is the only person that can ever make you happy- ask her for something concrete- holding your hand, good morning kiss etc.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong>
Sadfww------- why are WWs so difficult? If I had been a WH I would bend over backwards to do whatever I needed to save the marriage. Instead WWs get all tangled up and close down the communication door. Initially I had to beg to get my wife’s passwords and to change phone numbers. I would have done that ASAP as a sign of good faith. If BW wanted to get details I would give them without hesitation. If she wanted to say OW was a piece of s---t I would agree! Why must all WW defend OM so much? It drives me nuts! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are not very far into recovery, Stanley, and Myrta is still most likely in withdrawal. WW's AND WH's are difficult in the early stages. As remorse- and grief- set in for the WS they become much more compliant.
As far as the defending OM- as the A gets further into the past my bet is that that will not happen anymore. In my own case, I'd gladly be the one to bad mouth my OM.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong>
Then there is the other side of the coin. Why do WWs come back to a husband for whom they feel nothing other than that non-lusty love (a conscious action)? Is this all related to low self-esteem? I think men are different- I would be gone if I was a WH.

In the end coming back to the BH is a sign of insecurity------- don’t you think? A highly secure woman would probably take the risk with the OM. Myrta said so herself when she was in the throes of withdrawal. The idea of living with OM was attractive, but she could not take a risk with an unknown. It is not nice knowing one gets the price because one can provide security rather than lust. That is the struggle!!! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I don't think coming back to the BH is a sign of insecurity, Stanley. From a WW perspective, I think it is a realization that the OP is NOT a good match for you - that your fog made you think that the fact that the OM could meet one or two EN's made him the love of your life- and was your "soul mate" - when in fact that was not even close to the truth. And most importantly, that at the end of the day- you loved your spouse very much.

Stanley, I support my husband financially. He is home with our kids. I do NOT need him for financial security if that's what you're getting at in your post. Simply- I love him- and that is why I never left him. Thankfully he loves me too and didn't leave me.

I've read some of your posts on this board and the biggest impression I come away with is that you ARE ANGRY. You are ANGRY with OM - and with Myrta. Anger is understandable. Just don't let it get in the way of your recovery.

<small>[ October 15, 2004, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Sadfww ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You Are Responsible for Your Personal Happiness.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with that, but perhaps you misunderstood me-------- if you ask Myrta my happiness has never been dependent on her or anyone else. I am quite happy with myself and according to her I had very high self-esteem. However, when 100% of my grief and pain is due to what my wife did I would think that some of her actions could improve the way I feel. If she chooses to keep saying get over it, there is nothing I can do it is going to be quite hard. Heck- I may eventually give up.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've read some of your posts on this board and the biggest impression I come away with is that you ARE ANGRY. You are ANGRY with OM - and with Myrta. Anger is understandable. Just don't let it get in the way of your recovery.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You bet I am angry and the OM is the best target to let steam go out. I certainly don’t say anything nasty to my wife anymore-- not at all. However, it is hard to resist pointing out the incredible deficiencies of the OM---- and trust me--- there are many-- the list is VERY LONG!

BTW, the fall out between JL and Myrta had to do with the fact that Myrta refused to put forth a more vigourous effort or as JL said-------- “the ball is on Myrta’s court--- she has the key”. This is why Myrta and JL had a disagreement. My wife believes that she will participate more fully in the recovery when she feels it is the right time to do so---- no sooner---- no later.

So what did you do when your husband was depressed, angry, and felt like the most humiliated man in the world? Did you say to him your happiness does not depend on me?

Don’t you think that is quite cruel?

Is this the low self-esteem coming thru?

What do you think?