Hi Ali and others.

I believe these are all really good points.It is hard work to heal and forgive however not to put a lump in the road but there is one point that I believe has not been touched on.

It is true sorrow from the BS.
How has Randy been in that situation??
Do you see in his actions that he is truly sorry for what he did and what it has done to your life and family??

If not I believe this is a big key in why you(and me)are stuck and find it so very hard to forgive and move on(I hate that phrase).

My H has shown very little remorse for this.He is unwilling to change,unwilling to do ANY thing suggested on MB to heal our M.He just wants to sweep it under the rug and act like it did not happen.There for I look at him and see a man that is not sorry for the experiance of the A he is only sorry that now HE has to deal with my emotions.
In my case H could not handle it so guess what I'm no longer in the house.So now he only has to deal w/me and my emotions when he comes to visit.

I see from this site that the M's that seem to be recovering great,and the BS that are able to forgive are also the ones who have a WS that is turly sorry and shows it.

I can relate to all that was written,I can understand it all but still a M can not heal,a BS can not heal with out the help of the WS.If the WS like mine does not show any true remorse it is next to impossible to get past the stage we are now stuck in.

I hope you had a fun halloween w/your kids.

Ginger we are parallel with each other here. You and I can relate but I wish it was on different terms than this one.

You know, as I was watching Oprah this morning, (I was on again)(good show) I thought to myself, the more he lies about this, the more power he is giving to his ex tramp......! If you all are curious to know which one was me, I was on last saying I needed to know the gory details of the affair with the caked on the make up! Anyway that was just thought. How do you all feel about that statement?
As my two year old is happily into his halloween candy I can some time to answer some questions from Star*fish.

*What does your recovery plan look like?

Well in his mind, Coming home at a decent time will recover our marriage. As I try to take the time to come up with one he avoids it.

*Are you spending at least 15 hours of undivided time together?

No. I would really love that. But excuses are made and no effort. He uses the kids as an excuse to why we can't spend time together. Almost as if he uses the kids as sheilds My parents take the kids about once a month for the weekend. We have that time. But because there is not healing, I cannot "warm up to him". I really miss the times when we'd talk.

*Have you been honest with Randy about how the lack of remorse or regret is affecting you?
YES, YES AND YES! Every day. And he gets sick of it! I tell him I need him to help me get through this and his words are: "You just want to talk about the affair." Well yeah!! That is what put me in the position I am in. I am extremely honest about my feelings. I do not hold back.

*Do you two use the Policy of Joint Agreement to make decisions?
No. Maybe we should start! I have to go by the book again. Our therapist borrowed our book and she never had given it back. I figured maybe it will help her to help others in my situation. ???

*Have you been able to establish with certainty that there is no contact?
That I know for sure. She dumped him remember. That is how he came to this site. Not to heal us but to heal his broken heart from her cheating on him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />


*Have the two of you stopped lovebusting?

No. Guilty! But I feel attacked. I know how not to but it feels good to let him know what I think of him when he acts a certain way. Just being honest!


*Are the two of you trying to meet eachother's needs?
I am trying to meet his needs by doing what he thinks is important to him. Like the check book. But emotionally, he will not open up to me about what his needs emotionally. In the beginning of our MC, I told him straight out to him that I cannot give because I do not trust. No, he is not meeting my needs either. I know love busting is not part of meeting each others needs...

*Do you feel as though your marriage is still vulnerable?

Oh boy are we turtles in a shell. We do not show our bellies. We have our armour on. So no we have no vulnerability what so ever. But realize we do have some good days. Where we can laugh. It is not always miserable.

So I see our faults. But I am scared to give this man any type of an emotional connection because there was no healing with the tramp. He says "now" that he didn't know if he really fell in love with her. But the other night, because of his buisness he is in he dealt with a company that deals with his old company and was told some interesting news about them. And he was up all night for two nights in a row. So is he over it? He only knows and it is frustrating because I receive so many different messages from him.

I cannot go more than half way. He needs to meet me half way but he still at the starting point!

I have been thinking about all the theory's that were giving to me this weekend! You know something I got really angry because here is an intelligent man acting this way! What does he not get? Sweeping this horrible event under the carpet is going to make it better?

Ali~ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<small>[ November 01, 2004, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Ali88 ]</small>

Whoops sorry Ginger.

Forgot to mention. Yes, it is true sorrow from me. But what message I am interpreting from Randy,is sorry I have deal with it! Very much like what you are going through Ginger! No sorry or remorse from him. There was post from somebody that I replied to the other day. She is sick of her H. bringing it up. But as I see it, she is saying and doing all the right things to start her H. healing progress. If my H. was genuine in his words, I would be on a great path to recovery.
But that is it, just words and no action! Never realizing that I want to feel needed and special too.

OK 2 year old on lap and not feeling good and I am trying to type with one hand! Not doing a very good job here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Halloween was a blast by the way! Now what to do with all this candy! ??????

Ali~

Hi, Ali Glad your Halloween was fun, same here, but whew alot of work, I'm sooo tired. I didn't post because I thought in any way your ha shouldn't be sorry and only you know how much you can take before your ready to throw in the towel and not feel guilty about giving up too soon. I agree completely with Ginger that the m can't heal until the ws truly understands what he has/is putting you through.

I also think that maybe Randy has such hard core problems with his self-image that he would rather run then face them,even if that means putting up bariers to your pain (which only re-inforces his failure as a man) then deal with it.

I think concentrating on the A right now is fighting the wrong battle and counter-productive. Your h has to believe that he is a worthy human being by simply being himself and know that his contribution to you and your family, other then monetary, is valuable before he can appreciate what he actually took from you by having the A.

At the same time you need boundaries set, every relationship has rules. You both need to discuss and compromise on what your rules are based on each other's needs. ex: if he wants control of the bank account, maybe a nice compromise would be separate accounts. He is willing to come home on time, tell him how safe that makes you feel and how only a special man would take your feelings into consideration, then ask if there's something you could do to make him feel safe and special. In this manner you can work on the A without having to make it a focal point, but put the focus on your m instead. And Randy gets the self-esteem boosts he needs for being a good h instead of in the unhealthy way he's been getting it. On the other hand I wouldn't give him ANY
attention for being controlling or nasty.( even negative attention may inadvertantly feed his starving ego and reward the behavior) He may get worse for awhile as he tries harder and harder to get the attention, but I would just continue to try to find healthy reasons (no matter how small) to feed his ego and when he exhibits caring, protective behavior praise heavily, letting him know that THIS is why he is a "god among men".

Thanks, happymom. I think the same thing applies to my H and our situation as well without the A.

I think it boils down to the fact that these guys feel so little self-worth inside that they cannot possibly empathize with anyone or anything other than themselves. Until that happens they remain emotionally immature. Learning empathy for others is a maturation of the emotional being. These guys aren't at that level yet.

<small>[ November 02, 2004, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: SAB ]</small>

I agree with you both!

Positive reinforcement! Like you train animals. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

The thing is that when he was in between jobs and feeling really bad about himself, I was there for him. I was pregnant and hormonal. But I put that behind me because I couldn't stand to see him feel that way. I was telling him great things, helping him to see that he is worth more than he thinks he is. We had so much support. But OK he finally got a job. A job 1200 miles away. We agreed on if he took a job that was not within driving distance that I would have to stay here for a year to make sure he was stable. We did that before where we lost $$$$$. Plus we had only lived in this house for two years and we had no equity and we lost all our savings and 401 was gone. We agreed on that. Meanwhile, went to go check out this area and hated it! I mean I hated it! Our oldest son was diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome (form of autism) and the schools could not support is educational needs. I was in a position to make a decision over Randy's happiness or my son's future. I was stuck! Then we agreed that he'd only stay there for two years so he can be stable. There he was, he was on a pedistal from everyone down there. No joke either. His bruised ego was making a come back before the A. He was like on an ego trip. Way out into space. Cocky! But I was pleased to see him happy in the career once again. In the meantime, I was draining. Just having a baby, feeling the demands of my other child and no emotion support from my husband. Who was helping me through all this? He never told me great job doing this all by myself. I am out there shoveling snow, doing yard work and believe me we have a large drive way and a huge yard! I was doing it all. No support from him. But I was still supporting him as I only could 1200 miles away. Cards, gift baskets, e-cards, calls, art work from the boys, sending him things from home. Telling him how proud I was and I knew he had what it takes. But Obviously it was good enough.
When we went down there, because he "claimed he missed the family, so I decided to bring the family down there for three weeks so we can be a family again. He treated me so rotten. Wouldn't touch me. Of course that is when his affair was almost a phyiscal one. It was that I was a "distraction". So he wanted me gone. Nice!
So, you see, I have not felt special in years. Is he doing anything now. No not really. Sex is cold and meaningless. So for me to start stroking his ego, I would have to put myself back in auto pilot. Because all I do is give this man. I am not sure I am strong enough. I am afaid of that risk. And that is a huge risk. Am I being too selfish here?

Ali~

NO!!!!!!!!

I feel like you that NOW it is his turn to do something for me.I did all that I could after dday to show him how much I loved him,how much I cared and wanted us to make it.
Well he showed me alot of attention for about 6wks problem is he was still in contact w/OW all this time,it is like as the A died so did his attention to me.

Life has not been the same since.

H was here to visit and the first day he spent all day w/his brother,mommy did all his laundry.He locked his keys in his car so he did not get back to my place until almost midnight.And he wonders why I get upset,why we argue.
I am suppose to just let him do what ever and accept it,I cant.

It is time for him to do something for me.To put some effort into me.If he wants me to stop getting upset and bringing up the A or how I feel than I think its time he gives me a reason to do this.

Sorry this is probably not good advise but you can see I am just a bit upset right now.

I can understand Ali why you feel like you do.
This is probably the hardest thing in life we will ever have to overcome.And I wonder if we really ever will or will we just learn to live with it!!!!!!!!!!

Over come? I highly doubt it! Accept it. Absolutely not! Live with it! Probably. I was talking with Randy last night as we watch the election. (boohoo, sniff) and we talked about Happymom's insite.
I asked him, (again) if he feels that I never supported him. He looked at me and said: "I feel that you did not support me the way I wanted you to support me". Then he said: "Wait!" "That is wrong" "You had given me the most support and stuck behind me 100%." Then I told him, I cannot change what he felt before I ever came along. He just invisioned his life being at a total different level. Randy has extremely high expectations and often fails because he cannot reach his goals. Again I told him he needs to lower his expectations and learn that life does not always go your way! Again that blank look!

I told him that his self esteem is killing me and the kids. Children live what they learn. And so far my youngest is beginning to really feel the stress in our house hold and that bothers me.
Because he is so self absorbed, he not fix this!
So what do I do now!

His level of expectations for life make him sound like he has a perfectionist, all-or-nothing perception. If it's not perfect, it's not worth it. Kind of like his self-esteem.

Ahhh, Just a vent here.

But this really made me angry. Yesterday Randy spoke with his Dad. His Dad asked how is everything going? Meaning my marriage. Let me tell you something. Randy confided in his Dad about his affair and his Dad said don't tell your wife. Randy explained that I am still upset about the A. and others things and we are still stuck. (well gee I wonder why) His Dad replied; "It has been over a year, tell her to get over it"! OK! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
Time heals nothing! Here is a man that starts fires and walks away from the scene. He avoids issues too. I guess the apple don't fall far from the tree!

Ali~

No they dont fall far.

My H's dad had multiple A's during his M until he became a Christian,but when he did become a Christian there was a 180 in him.
I can remember asking my MIL why she put up with this and her response was "He comes home to me".I never understood it.

My BIL has had many A's also, even producing a child that is now 3yrs old and I just found out about him about a month ago.Go figure.
I know it is not the childs fault but they all act like it is no big deal that my BIL has 2 kids the same age!!!!!!!!! One with his wife,one from OW.Sorry there is just something not right here.

I told my H many yrs ago that I had a fear of him being just like his dad.I still believe that my H had more A's than this one but I have no proof,he says NEVER this is the first time.

Ali,people look at us and wonder why we cant get over it.I look at myself often and ask the same thing.I wish I had the answer.
For me I think it is the fear that he got off to easy and so next time will be that much easier he just wont tell.
I live in fear most days.

Everyday I say today I will not think about it,I will not live in the fear but something always triggers me back.
I almost feel like it is always thrown in my face in some way.
An example,yesterday at work I am helping a customer she tells me she is here helping her parents they are getting older and not in good health right now,I ask where are you from?
Yes she was from OW state so right away my mind shoots to the A.
I come home from work put on the TV,Jay Leno is on,I start to watch it he has a comidian on he tells where she will be performing and yes he says the city and state of OW,and when he introduces her,she has the same name as OW.
So once again my mind shoots back.

Lately stuff like this seems to happen daily,I feel as tho someone wants to just keep throwing it in my face.
Not as many things trigger me as before but her name and her state still do.

I dont know how to block it out of my mind,I dont know if I ever will.I feel like I now live with a split personality.LOL

I hope that you can have a good day in spite of all of this.

Take care.

Yep!

Just curious, what state is she from???

My FIL, acts as if it is no big deal. OK the two of us are together so move on and don't look back. Saying an unfilled sorry doesn't cut it. We are together by the sake of grace. I had tried talking with him last night. BIG MISTAKE! I thought perfect timing, kids went to bed early, we were both awake and there was really nothing else to do. I wanted to talk about a recovery plan. And The Mr. Potato head came out. He told me that when we talk we don't get anywhere. He gives me yes and no answers and then circumvents the answers. He is an excellant manipulator. And we just end up pointing fingers and we just vent and we get no where. I told that him we need to have a goal. Then he tells me you want to talk every night. Why can't we just sit and enjoy ourselves and stop. I told him I am not comfortable point yet. That we need to get this resolved or we go our seperate ways. He can not just turn his back and walk away from the damage.

Rats someone at door. Finish posting later.
Ali~

Michigan.

Hi Ginger!

OK getting back to the post. I do the same thing. I say to myself; today is going to better. I am not going to let that B*tch in heat get to me. Well, she does. Just like you were at the store and her state got brought up, that same very thing happens to me. I hate Texas! No offense to any one that lives there. But I really hate it. It seem that a lot of A. take place there. Or maybe the state is so big.. ahh who knows.
If our husbands was like Aussiewife, I think we'd be recovered now. But because they're not we are stuck in this emotional torture. I really wonder if my H. really loves me. Because if he knows the amount of pain that I am in, why doesn't he want to help? I asked him if the shoe was on the other foot? He said two things. Divorce! Or I better be making it up to him! OK so he can wallow over this and not do a damn thing about it. But he would be asking for a divorce??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Today, I found out that a friend of mine is leaving her husband for sure. I wasn't sure if she was going to go through with it. But they announced it. I was sort of upset with her because her H. was trying. He was making an effort. But she said she had enough. I was I was secure enough to leave. I doubt my husbands love for me. I mean just look at his posts. He hasn't changed much except the total whinning about her.

Ali~

Ginger I hope it is not the UP of Michigan! I am right around the corner from there! Gulp!

<small>[ November 04, 2004, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: Ali88 ]</small>

No not the upper part she is by Detroit.

My H says the same,if the shoe was on the other foot he would call me every name in the book and throw me out,he would not stick around.Like I said before I would then be in his eyes damaged goods.

Today H and I got in a fight.I told him that he did not need to talk to me,he could stay over there and live his happy single life that was fine,he hung up.I have not heard from him since.Who cares!!!!!!!!!!

I wish I was strong enough to go thru with a divorce,I dont know why I am not.I am not happy with him,I am not happy without him.
I feel like he holds back how he feels,that at times he is only staying married because that is the right thing to do.But look at us we are not even living together why does he not just file??

I will always feel like he holds some love in his heart for her.He says no but it is based on a letter he wrote me about 3wks after dday.I know they say it is fog talk,but it feels like the one and only time he ever truly told me how he felt,that letter seemed so honest.

Today I am just tired,I dont know why.I go and do things and try to enjoy every minute that I have.

I took the kids to starbucks we sat outside and talked,people walked by and looked at me as I was in conversation with a 2 and 4yr old why we sipped on our drinks.It was a moment to cherrish and I do.
But still inside I am empty and lonely and wonder often will I feel like this forever??

Hi Ginger!

So your Barbie without Ken? Teehee. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> OK I had to add that.

When Randy's other coworkers saw me in person, they told him right in front of me "What the hell were you thinking"? There is no comparison. When I had to call his company to get the stuff back, which I was really hoping they woudld send the "love" letters but didn't, the women answered the phone and said; "She couldn't hold a candle to you." And she continued to apologize for her actions and tell me how beautiful I am. She didn't know me so I am still confused on that.
Randy's boss told all the locations that "I am hot!" OK I am really flattered but, does it really count when your own husband doesn't think so? I know I am the only one responsible for my self esteem, but when your H. profounds his love for OW and says; "She touched areas never experienced before." (Remember that? He posted that on here) really kills yourself worth. Gee if my own husband rejects me, then who is to say another person will too!

Gee's Ginger, you and I feel so much the same thing. I could be reading my own mind when I read your post! Having your husbands rejection day in and day out is just so emotionally exhausting. How the hell are we standing? I want to just leave. I really do. Just like you. I think he is hanging on to a piece of her even though he is saying she was a "monster". I mean why is he still so damn distant? OK my insecurites are really high right now. May because it is Friday!
I am trying to think about what the other posts mentioned about his self esteem. But it is hard. I still feel so neglected. Dead! I also feel I am just a warm body to come home to. I also feel that the only reason why we are still together is not that he loves me but because the kids and he is too cheap to get a divorce. He knows that I cannot support myself. And even with his help! This state is so expensive to live. I am also afraid! I feel I am with a man who doesn't love me. Why the hell do I want to subject myself to this?

I was at my friends today and we go way back to when we all met at college, and she just can't understand how I deal with this. She told me that I used to be so out going and really up beat. I think there is a lot to it. But having kids and dealing with this issue is tiring.

Ginger that is so cool you and your kids were able to sit at Starbuck's. I look forward until that day. I am not sure if you ever posted how your kids feel about this mess?

Ali~

Oh yeah family lives in Phelan. She's learning spanish! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I went to starbucks with my grandkids they are 2 and 4 LOL. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Everything you wrote could have been me talking.I dont know why my H does not file for a divorce like yours I think he is just to cheap.

My kids are older they are 27,23.18,16 and they did not know of the A until 6months ago when I finally told my D.They all knew something was wrong I had lost a lot of weight,never left the house and was not interested in anything any more.I was in a deep depression,as I look back it was deeper than I knew I know I am still struggling with some depression.At first they were angry,they now have no respect for thier dad they just tolerate him.I think he fears if we divorce that he will not have access to 2 of our grandkids he loves those 2 more than anything,I feel that is what keeps him hanging around.

Like you I was always concidered the life of the party,out going,joking,always talking,laughing.I will say this that my H tells me the thing he misses most is my smile how he wishes he could have that back.

And no I do not concider my self a "Barbie"!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> !

Now you know I ment that as a compliment right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

How cute! That must have been adorable site to see. My Mom loves my kids I think more than she loved me! Why not? She hands them right over! But really that is good that you can take them out!

I really don't smile either around him. But Randy never tells me that he misses my smile. He goes on about his business and gets mad that I can't enjoy myself. Because he lied so many times, how do I trust his words and his actions? Most of the time, I have it my head; "Why are you with me when you don't want to be here?" You know how crappie I feel thinking that he doesn't want to be with me? I know it is just my thoughts but it is his actions that speak. Remember he did not want to come back home. Then I remember our conversations when she dumped him before he got fired. He would call me on the hour every hour even after I hung up on him, he'd tell me, I miss her, What am I going to do without her?. Yadda, yadda. I mean he was in tears as if he lost his mother! Fog? So I guess, I go in self protection mode. I can't be vulnerable! I don't want to live the rest of my life like this.

Ali!

Yes I knew it was a compliment but did not want any one to think that is how I thought of myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I watch my grandkids M-F for my D her and her H are fulltime students so I have the kids all the time,I work part-time nights and weekends.

It is the constant lies that get to me.Just last weekend my H lied to me and he wonders why I get upset.I have tried to get it thru his head that I will never trust him again if he can not even be honest about little things.

As for the fog....my H wrote me a long letter about 3wks after dday telling me how she reminded him of me when I was younger and that she would always be a special part of his life because she was there when he needed someone and please understand this,and be patient as he helped her thru this because he had hurt her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
Make me want to throw up.......what ever happened to helping me thru the hurt!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

OH MY GOD!


Yes! The little things! Gee's that is what I keep telling Randy! He lies over the stupidest things that I cannot even understand why! Right, how is he going to start to regain my trust when there are dub little lies involved? He just doesn't get it!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Gee, how nice! Not sure how to put this. But you know when he wrote that she reminded him of you way back when? Maybe he was trying to relive the past? OK just a thought. If I was the ow, I'd be pretty P*ssed to read that I remind him of his wife. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Randy made me basically non existent in the tramps eyes. He didn't want to kiss me because he felt as if he was cheating on her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Ginger, is he helping you financially? If my family lived closer I think having a job would be my saving grace. The sad thing is that I cannot work because day care would cost as much as my salary. To get really good day care around here you need to be making a lot of money. I know sounds like excuses. Weekends are the only time I have where I can give my full attention to the boys. Besides, I don't trust Randy with the kids. And I thought of working evenings in the mall somewhere, or as a customer service rep in one of the health insurance companies out here but the problem is Randy can't leave at a normal time. So it would be pointless. He never comes home at a consistant time!

He came home yesterday in a good mood. I thought to myself, how could you be like this when I am feeling this way? My walls are up in full armor. I had hurt my ankle and I haven't been working out in a while so I feel pretty gross. Oh and the fact that there is TONS of halloween candy around here doesn't help. So I feel bad about that. I am just paranoid because when I had the baby, I gained weight. I am one of those who eat an calorie and my body changes it to ten calories. So I have fears of being like that again and I will feel even more rejected.

Ali~

<small>[ November 06, 2004, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: Ali88 ]</small>