JL,<P><B>OF COURSE</B> we are friends... and I got the message that I'll never know more about you loud and clear...<P>Yes, I'll work on the "mad" part... maybe, just maybe, I'm a bit more sensitive than usual for the...uh...usual...er,uh... reason that I get a bit sensitive once a month or so... but let me tell you this: I wouldn't be this angry if my H would not have gone to lunch with that woman on the <B>day after Christmas</B>... you do realize that, right?<P>I respect and love you... honest and truly! <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>Broken heart, broken promises, broken spirit... let me rest!

New_B,<P>The fact that your H went to lunch with another woman is HIS PROBLEM not yours. He could lose you if he keeps it up. You take care of yourself and get better OK? <P>I think you have a problem figuring out who has the problem. You have some but your H's behavior is his problem. He has as much or more to lose as you. Remember, losing you would be a great lose to him and only he can control his behavior. So don't get mad at him, just keep healing and learning. You will know what you have to do when you need to do it and getting mad at H won't come under any of those categories.<P>God Bless<P>JL

<B>JL</B> -- I <B>really</B> disagree with all of this boiling everything down to <B>your</B> problem/<B>his-her</B> problem. Bottom line is that the case is almost, if not completely, non-existent where you can sit around and blame someone for the collapse of a marriage. In almost every situation, <B>both</B> parties have contributed and it is truly up to <B>both</B> parties to work together to straighten it out.<P>My W cheated on me. I was taken completely unawares. I knew we had problems, but didn't know they were that serious. Common story, right? I have forgiven her for that. My problem right now is her inability to work on this together. I can work on my faults and try to correct the things I did that contributed to our problems. W can do the same thing, but the marriage will <B>never</B> survive if we don't do a lot of this work <B>together!!</B><P>This BS about Ann not supposed to be upset with her H just doesn't cut it. Rather than trying to shame her, we should be supporting her. So what if she says(today) that he would get his papers back. Anyone who has been thru this on either side of the equation knows it's an emotional roller coaster. You can feel one way today and the opposite tomorrow. Tomorrow, Ann may regret what she said because she feels more like reconciliation. We are human beings. We have faults and cannot be perfect all of the time.<P>Again, my W cheated on me. If I slept with someone right now, even with her about to move out, she would have every right to be angry about it. I wouldn't necessarily have to agree with her stance, but she still has that right. Her feelings have been hurt in this just like mine. Just like Ann's H. <B>Just like Ann's</B>.<P>Stepping down from the soapbox now, with current profile and real name....<P>--DeWayne--

DeWayne,<P>The discussion with NB had to do with a long standing discussion and I think she understands that. I do think the his/her problems are relavent. You can only fix your own problems and it doesn't help to beat yourself up about things your cannot fix. As you know very well, these situations require remarkable patience. This patience comes from working on things you can work on and understanding as best as possible the mindset the spouse is in. <P>As for AnnR, I did not say she shouldn't be angry. I said she can use her feeling to better understand the situation and hopefully gain strength from that knowledge.<P>She is very hurt that is clear. She is trying to restore her marriage. She is losing patience with her H. This latter situation will not serve her well in the long run. <P>I am responding to her post. Signing divorce papers when she does not want a divorce because she is temporarily angry and running out of patience does not serve her stated purpose does it? I don't think so.<P><BR>I hope this clarifies what I was trying to say. It would seem that many people have been deeply affected by AnnR's situation. I hope this continues and she can get what she needs from this site. As for me I think I will retire from this thread, people seem to missing my point rather regularly here.<P>AnnR, God Bless You and Your Family<P>JL

If we all agree that there is no excuse for infidelity, then it really doesn't matter who cheated on whom first, correct? It doesn't even matter whom did what to cause the betrayal. What it comes down to is how hard both are willing to work to save the marriage. It doesn't sound like New-B's, or AnnR's, or HurtingToo's husbands are doing much in that department. It sounds like they, along with my ex-H, are using this as an excuse to be just as irresponsible and mean as they darn well please. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 28, 1999).]

TS -- Oops...You got away with that one...I was going to respond to what you just now edited out....Except for the now-missing piece, most of what you are saying is right on. Blame should go out the window. Recognize the problem(s), work separately <B>and</B> together and see if it can be resolved. No matter which side of the betrayal fence you are on, you cannot be faulted if you are willing to work with your spouse to re-create a good marriage.<P>Also remember that adultery is at a base level, objectional to some people, even to the point of being unforgiveable. We can't fault them either. We are different people with different moral values and standards and there will sometimes be irresolvable standoffs.<P>However, in the cases you have mentioned, this is not the case. Just some people who have to do a little extra work on themselves.<P>--DeWayne--

Oh AnnR, your post has taken on a life of it's own!! Where's Chris with his evil laugh when we need it!<P><B>JL</B>, Yes I understood that you were speaking to <B>me</B> about <B>my</B> situation.<P><B>DeWayne</B>, How well I understand your original post, since I said virtually the same thing in my post. <P><B>TheStudent</B>, I agree with what you're saying too, and you have become so very supportive and uplifting to me personally! Wish I knew what you edited out - just 'cause I'm nosey <P><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>Broken heart, broken promises, broken spirit... let me rest!

I think I will stay out of this in some aspects. I am very sorry that he looks to have found someone. I hurts. I know. Whether you are the betrayed or the betrayer, pain is pain. I agree with someone earlier on your post....One day you are one way...ready to save the world....and the next you are wondering if you should give up. It's hard, that is all I can say. The emotional roller coaster of losing someone you love is devestating. I am living proof that you make it. I am without him, but I am making it. I don't like it, not one bit, but I don't have a choice. It took a while, a very long time to get myself to understand that it is now his choice. That is not to say that it lessens the pain, merely redirects it. I know, even through everything my H has put me through, that it is his mistake by leaving me and the children. That I was worth the fight, and the children and myself were worthy of all of his love. Now its his turn to figure that out.<BR>Nancy

WOW! I just logged on for the day. Should've checked this at work ... something else I've lost is being able to stay home w/ my two beautiful children. I believe there is some truth in every posting. I thank you all for your heartfelt words. I really do. Don't ever be afraid to post what you really feel because you never know if it will help someone out. Sometimes the truth hurts.

AnnR,<P>I do hope that something written here has been of help to you. I certainly hope something I said did not offend you. It seems to have a few others.<P>Keep posting and letting us know how you are doing. This will be a long process, but there is hope. You asked how long do you have to do Plan A and it doesn't seem to be working. It is working. You are placing good thoughts in H's head. <P>But the anger and the hurt will have to dissipate. That takes time. Further, he has built walls to protect himself from you (you could call pride or walls whatever). They will have to be dealt with before you hear the "I love you" you want to hear. Don't give up. If you want things to work out don't give up. This is a long ride. Recall it took you a long time to go through the affair. I am not trying to get at you here, just to give you some perspective on the time scales that are involved. <P>Your Plan A, is getting through. You are not competing with an OW at this point, but you are competing with his defensive mechanisms. Lots of damage and lots of healing. This is true for you as well as your H.<P>God Bless You and Your Family<P>JL<P>P.S. Have you thought about calling Steve Harley. It could be the best money you ever spent.<p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited December 29, 1999).]

Thank you Just Learning. No, you have not offended me. I appreciate your candor and honesty. I haven't taken offense to anything written. <P>I haven't considered calling Dr. Harley but am now. <P>I will continue in Plan A although I am getting a bit weary. I do love my husband very much but feel further and further away from him each day. I do belive there has to come a point where I am beat down. That may sound harsh but I can't be a doormat forever. I will always love him and constantly let him know that.<P>Thank you again. I know you took a few beatings for your postings. I guess we all have different views and feelings but that is what makes the forum so great.

AnnR,<P>How do I say this? If you have been reading NSR's postings on Plan A, you might think that you are being asked to be a doormat. But I don't think that is how to view it. You know I keep talking about a plan. Well maybe I can say it slightly differently. If you develop a Plan, such as Plan A, you are not a doormat. You are doing something to try and restore the marriage. That is not a doormat. Does this make sense to you? You have some control. Maybe not in what your H decides, but in how you act and your own goals.<P>I know you feel beat down by the effort and the emotions in all of this, but step back and look at it as giving it your best shot. You don't need to beg your H to take you back in Plan A, you are supposed to show him love and plant in his mind that it is safe to come back. Usually, these words are used on this forum for getting the betrayer to return, but really it works both ways in my opinion. <P>He fears returning to you just as if he had betrayed you. I don't know what type of personality your H has but most men/women will feel that they must of failed the marriage if their spouse is seeking emotional and physical fullfilment from OP. The fear of failing again and going through the pain can be very daunting.<P>What I am trying to say AnnR, is have patience, but also restore yourself. This will take a long time for him to heal and you to heal. Get your life on as even a keel as possible and then be kind and loving to H when you see him. Don't LB and don't beg.<P>I hope this makes sense. Your biggest ally in time, so take your time and don't burn yourself out in the process.<P>God Bless You and Your Family<P>JL