Thanks again AW.

I got first full nights sleep last night for a couple of weeks. It will help me to think straighter.

I am positive that her game plan is to spend time with OM. Why else would she go there?
Even if it were innocent, I couldn't see getting my head straight in the area where I would have feelings and memories.

Hiring a PI is probably out of the question for 2 reasons. 1 is cost and second is they would be recoginized as an outsider instantly. This island has less than 1,000 residents in the off season.

What I can do is make it less than pleasent for them. I see a number of ways to increase anxiety level. With how WW responds to stress, OM will probably pay me to take her back. (she gets drunk and Mean) Also I can stress him and make his performance less than sterling.

Because OM is a pilot with own airplanes, the only place I would feel comfortable with her going would be to her parents or one of her Aunts and Uncles.

I have noticed that in talking about trip, she is either openly defiant or she wants my permission. Don't know what, if any, significance to put on changes. I would appreciate your thoughts on this AW as I think you have good insight into her behavior,

In the meantime, I have to talk with OMSOF as you said and look for other ways to expose A more to the world.

Thanks

Christmas finally came, SAA arrived. Have read a lot of it and I am starting to see how to influence events in my favor.

Do have WW feeling some paranoia. I came in from shop and she jumped me about making "phone call".
The only calls I have made our my normal business calls so I was astonished at that. She asked if I called OM which I hadn't and told her so.

Got more reading to do so off I go.

ktu

I dont take any pride in knowing a bit how she is thinking, afterall the only reason I can is because I cheated and I'm very ashamed still and will be for the rest of my life, but at least I can give some help from it all. All the BS like you amaze me with the depth of love and forgiveness.

The permission thing is trying to get you to 'agree' in 'her' mind to her 'innocent' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> holiday, she knows very well she will be neeting OM.

I suspect they are in contact as no where have you mentioned she has sgreed to NO CONTACT.
If they are in contact - time to up the ante.

As you read SAA you will probably have seen by now the ESSENTIAL need to expose expose expose in your circumstances where she is still seeing the OM or trying like h*ll to.
I suspect the OM's W or partner is very sus & has been keeping an eye on him. Thats why they have seen to be quieter, they are under your eye so are being more cunning.

I cannot express the importance enough of exposing to the OM's wife, it is so powerful a tool in destroying the make believe world of the affair. Now expect anger, expect threats, expect big announcements like ' we will never fix our M now' blah blah blah.

Well it's time to make it difficult for the both of them, and not only that, if the OM's W knew wouldn't you WANT her to tell you???? Well you need to tell her with the evidence and admission you have from your WW.
You see thats what she was frightened of, you ringing the OM's number, to tell his wife/partner. I suspect your WW knows that once the OM's wife knows its all over red rover for the Affair.

Step up the pressure and watch it fall apart...not very many men with families will give that up for an affair. Once his W knows he'll be dropping her like a hot rock is my guess.

YOU OWE NOTHING TO THE OM, he is a man with little ethics and does not care a bit about you or your M. He chose to commit adultery with your wife and therefore has to answer for his actions just like your wife does.

So ktu, step up to the plate and start swinging, you did warn them after all.

I am just going nuts here. this is the most screwed up day I have had in years and maybe ever.

WW called me this AM to tell me that my brother was hospitialized and in the critical care unit. I am not very close to my brother but he is by himself and he is blood. I called hospitial, talked with nurse and then called WW to tell her I was coming home for brief period to pick up materials I had forgotten when I left earlier. I wrote her a short note while waiting for the cop to finish writing me a ticket. In the note I told her she was my first priority and that I would make no decisons on brother without consulting her and getting her agreement to course of action. I asked her if that was okay and she said it was.

She then said your brother is just like your father, screwing things up. as I seldom talk to brother, and haven't for 5 months. he has no idea what is going on here.

Then she hits me with trip to island and that she was going to do it in Feburary no matter what.I really didn't respond but I am thinking this isn't really approiate right now and that If I respond, its going to turn into a yelling match.

She then went on to *****ing about work and being short staffed.

Can somebody give me a handle on this. I am trying to plan A but with responses from her like this, its really difficult. Also, these other things , such as brother and work, are distractions I don't need right now.

Have not talked with OM SOF yet, too much other stuff going on.

Sorry to hear about your brother ktu, hope hes ok.

As for your WW, I think exposure is well overdue and you need to get onto it.

Fit in a 15 min phone call and do it. Be very gentle and professional, explain who you are, where you can be contacted, so she knows you are genuine offer to share 'copies' of what you have, etc perhaps you could be allies in this.

Between now & the time she goes on 'holiday' - again who's paying for it??? - leave a nice big photocopy of a well known divorce law firm yellow pages add next to the phone.
If you are asked perhaps respond with something like
"well you stated you were going to do exactly as you pleased, and I accept you have that right, so I feel I need to know what my options are too."
Then follow with
"I really want to work on this M but I cant do it by myself after all and your continual contact with OM is hurting me and driving me away.
I recognise I have to change as well but it needs both of us to commit and learn from past mistakes."


Lets see her enjoy her little holiday meetings with OM then.

The aim of all this is to unsettle the cosy little fantasy world they have created by making it uncomfortable for them,,,,,, I bet OM runs for the hills...oh just to be sure what about sending the OM a letter from a lawyer - you know the $40/50 deal once only thing re filing alienation of affections law suit - hey they might do it for free if you undertake for them to do the work IF you go ahead with it.

You know something in the vein of
"We have been instructed to act for XXX in the matter of blah, blah, blah.... [details of affair as you know them] resulting in and causing the alienation of affections between Mrs X and Mr X.
Please advise your solicitors address for serving of documents" ...yep says nothing but????guilt & fear are powerful allies.

Now if you get a angry or panic phone call from WW - you have confirmed they are in contact right there, if he rings you say I have evidence I know you have arranged to meet in February...shake the tree see what falls out.

Unsettle, unsettle, unsettle.

Once you knock the affair out, which I think you will do by exposing to OM's W, THEN you have the hard work of attracting her back to the M, and handling her withdrawal and resentment - sorry we are not very nice during this period.

So start moving

Thanks for post AW.

I had thought about the letter you mentioned in the past but I put it down to one of many fantasies of revenge. If it were me, I don't think it would enhance my performance.

Contact with OMSOF is pending. With brothers situation, WW's A and being behind on work, I am a little to stressed to handle it in a calm way.

Going back to letter, I think copy of letter in WW's luggage might be am additional good touch.

Thanks for response and I hope that nothing more happens for a couple of days. I need no more distractions or problems right now.

A quick follow up, Calmed down enough to call OM SOF. She's out of town till the middle of next week.

You cannot PLAN A until contact with OM has been broken....

Please understand this. You will only hurt yourself if you continue.

Please GO INTO PLAN B - you will protect yourself and what love you have for your WW. Think of it this way. When you Plan A without your WW participation in repairing the marriage, all you are doing is filling her needs 1 2 3 4 8 & 9 and OM is filling 5 6 7 & 10. All her needs are being met and why on earth would she bother to change ANYTHING. BUT if you are in Plan B and not communicating with her in ANY way, needs 1 2 3 4 8 & 9 will NOT be met and perhaps she will realize that they are important and cannot be met by OM either.

2nd NOTE - YOU MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST GATHER STRONG EVIDENCE in case you need it. Please do not share with her or anyone what evidence you have until it comes time to use it. Otherwise, just like ALL lying Wayward Spouses, you will find they will twist some sort of lie and the evidence will be rationalized away!!

Please - I wish you luck!

This has been an interesting day, in a good sense of word.

WW has broken off contact with OM almost 2 weeks ago,according to her. I can verify the last 6 days, ain't modern electronics wonderful. She described him as being too troubled".

She wrote me a very nice note and we had good long talk this PM. She, also, gave me all of the correspondence and related stuff to burn at my pleasure.

Needless to say, I am very happy with this turn of events. While it will be awhile, and maybe never, that full trust will be restored. She committed to restoring our marriage with no contact with OM. While I will give her some trust now, she also knows that I will be verifying things.

We talked about vacation in Feburary and it will be the two of us going to a different spot than she planned. Shes even going to foot the bill.

We have a long road ahead of us in reestablishing our marriage and making it work.
It is going to be painful some times but it is going to be a lot of fun too. I am excited about the possibilities.

We talked about some other things such as my brothers situation, finances. and so forth. She showed a lot of willing ness to make changes and she even made some tonight.

I will do some periodic postings to keep people updated as I will need to vent and I would like to be able to show others that things can workout.

Two final points to make tonight. The first is that breaking the secrecy of this affair, in particular to her best friend. probably was WW's wake up call. She wasn't willing to lose her friends acceptance.

Point two, I thank everybody for their support. It is truly touching that strangers care. In particular. Aussie woman I thank you very much for your help and insight. You and your husband will be in my prayers for a long time.

Thats SO great KTU <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Your hard line AND demonstration of your love paid off and worked!! That takes a lot of courage.

OK now strike while the iron is hot and ask her to send OM a NO CONTACT letter approved by you and signed by her...you send it.

There are some good examples on the site here, it only needs to be simple basically saying

OM

please do not ever contact me again in any way.
H & I WANT to work on our M and keep our family and love.

No nice goodbyes etc, thats it really.

The important thing is it seals her commitment in your mind & the OM's - though sometimes we fail and contact gain but dont worry about that unless it happens - and helps prevent a 'false recovery'.

In regards to 'false recovery' Her commitment to changes are good, make sure they are the things YOU want as well as anything she wants to improve herself on.

Now one more thing... YOU...... you will need to meet ALL her EN's eventually - your short period of doing this has been successful hasn't it!! - so YOU may need to make some changes too. Be open to that even though YOU did not cheat or fail in your vows, just remender being right wont affair proof your new M will it???

There will be alot of ups and downs, very normal I can tell you!! But the rewards, they will be so much better than you could imagine - so I am told my lots of good people as I'm still working on it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> - and I believe them!!

Remember, to vent here not on your FWW - note that F = Former.
if you think it's ok and feel comfortable with it, encourage her come here - you can keep YOUR logon secret if you want - and I and many other FWW will be happy to give her a hand so to speak.

YOU are entirely welcomed to ANY help I could give you, but dont forget YOU did the hard bits
God bless and I'll hope tp hear from you that its going ok!!

<small>[ January 11, 2005, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: aussieswife ]</small>

Thanks for response AW.

This has been a tough day and a good day also. My brother died this AM, we were not close but at 53, I am now the last of my generation as all of the other siblings and cousins are dead. Its ironic in a way, I was the one in the most dangerous occupation, law enforcement, and probably the hardest liver of the 5 of us.

What makes it good is the support I received from FWW. While she didn't have much use for my brother, her responses, hugs, etc. were what I needed and they came voluntarily.

I know that for FWW and I to make it, I have to give a lot to her. Well thats fine. It has its payoff which is that by making her happy, I am happy. It costs me nothing to be considerate or neater, or spend more time with her or be more open on things, and yet I can gain and keep a great treasure by doing so.

Take care and I'll keep posting.

Finally got to last treasure trove of info. W left purse when she went to corner market. I knew there were quite a few pieces of paper in one pocket of it and I took look.

She had documented, literally, dates and times of phone calls and sometimes short notes on conversation. Unfortunately, not enough time to copy larger notes. Many of them were on post it notes so couldn't be copied.

Last contact date was the date I had verified no contact.

OM SOF has confronted him. She found phone records. Do you think I should contact anyway to see if she needs more info?

OM has been juggling 3 women, his SOF my W, and an Ex-W. No wonder he is troubled, I've got enough problems with 1.

One thing that concerns me was on an unsent note W confronted him about it. She wrote that she had 3 men in the wings waiting. There was no date on note so I don't know when it was written. As this stuff had dates on it ranging back almost 2 months, who knows when it was written. I don't know if this was BS talk or if in fact its true. I am inclined to think BS because she has been portraying herself, to him, in a manner that isn't her.

She has been trying to show herself as a real experienced sex machine with a high sex drive. She has never been a very sexual person and quite honestly, she is a clumsy love maker. Not that I am a real stud but I had enough moderate to long term relationships with sex involved that I have some ideas.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

ok first things first here........

HAve you got a no contact letter yet??
HAve you sent it??

The comments you found are a bit worrying though as you surmise are probably her attempt to make the OM jealous and continue the affair.

You still need to be honest with her and let her know WHAT you know, you do not need to supply the source of your knowledge.

An important part of your recovery is HER willingness to answer your questions honestly....let her know that her ans may hurt you more but you still need those ans.
If she does not you will not recover in all likelihood and over time your M will again be under threat.

So remember, NC letter, commitment to MC, and ANYTHING else you consider is important to allow you to recover.

YOU must not at any cost allow her to come back and not commit to these MB guidelines, thats a false recovery and if she does not go back to the OM eventually it will be someone else. You see this time & time again where the BS allows this to happen.
This is one big lesson many have found out here.

Welcome her back if she commits to ALL the MB guideleines....you will have a great M and freindship and lover then. BUT lots of work still to happen and you'll feel like a doormat for a while I guess. But this works if you follow the plan and recovery guidelines...... with a good pro M MC of course!!

Healthy suspicion for a while is OK......... in fact probably good .....if she has NOTHING now to hide she should open all her life up to you, email, accounts, credit cards, cell phone, everything.
Privacy is a privledge that she, like I, have lost the right to until we show we can be trusted in full.......remember its a mild form of tough love...don't give ground or back pedal and dont accept the old try at..well its over now lets get on with life. I dont want to discuss it again' I did that & caused my H a lot of pain, dont YOU stand for it either.

You're doing good ...stay loving but strong...and I still hope soon to see her here asking quesions and getting support to help you & her..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Things continue to be interesting around here and I am confused to a certain extent.

There has been additional contact between OM and WW. I can verify that they had contact at least once since I thought. I think they may have had contact last night, also. It, also, could be in my imagination. I think they have developed a different time frame for phone calls. Found note showing date of additional call and different time was used.

WW has been very supportive and helpful over the last week. She has talked about a couple of projects on the house that she wants to do,also. In a way, I feel like it represents a committment to us again.They are simple things and don't involve me very much.

I have not been too communicative with her the last couple of days. I have been worn down by week's events and just needed time to get myself together.

I have not brought up NC letter to her. I just was not able to find time, energy, and stability to do it.

My plan for today is to contact OM SOF to share info.She knows about phone calls but may not know about PA. I have not been able to reach her previously. Also, I want to give her dates that WW has vacation planned.

An additional thing is a note to wife on trust and rebuilding it.

One last note, spot WW picked for vacation, as alternative to her previous plans, is close to airport where OM flies his puddle jumpers into frequently.

As always, looking for feedback and new ideas.

oooookkk
I may be very suspicious but it sounds to me as if she may be playing you a bit.
This reference to the house and hints of and references to a distant future are very classic WW moves to put you at ease & stop investigating and exposing.

I suggest you continue with exposure ASAP. I also suggest YOU choose a holiday destination or aren’t you invited?
I think you are very wise to be sceptical right now.
You must get the no contact letter in front of her even if you copy one of the letters I referred you to before on a shortcut. Then you will see if she hesitates.

In any event you should confront her with what you know before her holiday where ever that is & also let her know that you also have decisions to make about the M. Leave it there DON’T get involved in any arguments, If its serious talk then that may be a good sign.

If she is not willing to commit and that’s basically to do what you believe is important to demonstrate this commitment she is indeed playing you. BY that I mean the MC, no contact, providing information as you ask it, etc etc

If you don’t get that commitment you keep the pressure on, you keep Plan A'ing trying to meet her EN's as long as you can.

For now Plan A may work but you need to understand it in full.........do you understand its not being a doormat - though you may feel like one - is not allowing her to rub your nose in it, or walking all over you or you avoiding the issues ..please read up on this urgently and ask questions.
Its getting the balance about meeting the EN's you can while also letting her know how she is hurting you and the M - make statements again don’t argue. Its about getting a message across & letting HER deal with that message.

Please know that when in the fog she will likely not make sense and lie often and distort the past...all very normal don’t accept it as a personal attack just doggy do do .

Test the waters, see if she wants to commit, does she want YOU on this holiday?/ That’s a good indicator where she is.

AW, thanks for post.

I am invited for 3 days and she wants to spend 4 or 5 by herself.

have continued to try to contact OM's SOF but either get no answer or him. I'll keep trying as I know he will be gone latter this week.

ktu

her desire to be 'by herself' while saying her A is over and only 'hinting' at wanting to work on the M..... big red flags here I think.

It sounds so much like she is playing you right now while she sees the OM if she can. This unfortunately is not uncommon in such circumstances.

All her comments and actions are so much like all us FWW when we were WW.
My guess is she will avoid all confrontation if she can and 'try' to keep you 'happy' no matter what while she explores her OM options.

I take you you have NO commitment to NC from your WW is that right?

No NC letter to OM yet??

Do you know of any contact between them or any way they could do this and keep it quiet & hidden from you??

Now, are you Plan A'ing at the moment trying to meet as many EN's of your W as possible?

Is there ANY discussion on the A or is she avoiding all discussions and questions?

Any contact with OM's W or SOP yet?? That is a must I believe.

Make sure you are following Plan A as closely as possible and if you have any questions please post away.
This is very important right now for her to see you meeting her needs, wont mean much for a while but it is further down the track your current actions all becomes so crucial.

Keep going ktu we are here to get you through this terrible time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks AW.

No contact with OM SOF yet. At least today, I didn't get him, I got the Answering machine instead.

I will keep trying though she may have left him. I will figure out a way to get in touch with her yet.

I meet with my attorney tomorrow. Partly on business matters, partly on this, and part on brothers estate. My attorney is not willing to handle A but is going to refer me and give me intial help.

Wife has been very good to me recently. AW,I hope your wrong but I am verifying everything I can.

Thanks

I have more time this AM so I can address your last post more fully, AW.

I am working Plan A as hard as I can. I know some of the areas she is unhappy with me about, neatness, home repairs, and the like. I have been much neater and am doing 2 home repair projects a week.

I am making sure that I spend time with her each day, anywhere from 45 minutes to 3 or 4 hours. However much she wants, she gets. I don't take phone calls during that time so that she gets undivided attention. We spend a day a week together on a "date" doing things she wants to do.

In past, I have been pretty closed mouth on finances and business. I didn't think she cared as much as she does about that area. I have put family checkbook where she can get it easily and keep her updated.

I make sure that I show her affection every day by giving her big hugs, telling her I love her several times a day, and writing her notes that are a little bit of a love note and more about daily happenings.

I am "actively listening" when we talk so that she knows I am paying attention.

I am working on"ENS" the best I can. I am, also, avoiding disrespectful judgements, angry outbursts, and demands.

Right now I feel like doormat. She is giving me positive responses so I am getting some reinforcement. We seemed to have hit a plateau right now, which is frustrating because I would like to be making progress each day, but I know this is part of the game.

As to trip, I am sure I am being played. I think the 2 days she is going to spend with me are "tip" for services rendered. So far I have gone along with it, pretending enthusasm I don't feel. I am just not sure what to do about it. It would be good to spend time with her as we used to, but I don't like aiding and abetting her A. Its contary to human nature to do something that hurts oneself but I also see that the more time she spends with OM, the more likely his true self is to come out and vice versa. Both have flaws and in particular, there is one that he has
that I don't think WW can tolerate for long.

I will keep working on saving marriage but every night when I go to bed, I think "I want my life back."

Look forward to response.

well I have to say the rule of thumb here is that if you have no comitment to NC, no NC letter being produced, no commitment to M e.g going to any MC you select..you're the injured party so you want a strong pro marriage one... etcetc.
............. then you must consider the affair as ongoing.
Her holiday doesn't make sense any other way and I do think you should be confronting her explaining how her actions are hurting you and destroying the M. I also believe you should REFUSE to go on a enabling affair holiday. However it would bo SO much better if you get to speak to the SOF and have some further solid info to go with about this 'holiday'.

How long have you been on the PLAN A work ktu??
that you have reached a plateau in this in so short a time I wondered if you have been doing plan A for aome weeks ?

what about exposure to her work and family members?? have you done this yet?
That should be your next move especially if she goes ahead with his trip.

without the commitments all the 'being nice' is just to keep your suspicions away or reduced to allow her to play. At leasat that seems to be the impression that is gained from what you describe.

Remember no love busters as much as you may want to....... if you need to yell or scream start going to a gym or run or something to take up that emotional turmoil.

Yes I suppose you do feel like a doormat right now, that is usual to feel that way but maintain the Plan A for now and gather information & evidence.

DO NOT make any promise to not talk to SOF or friends or family about HER affair, or any promise not to look into Pc, cell, etc accounts to confirm contact......if it comes up don't enter the argument if you have to respond reverse babble e.g promise me you wont keep looking into my cell records I want privacy etcetc - you say 'yes I know you want privacy' or 'yes I undestand you dont want me to find anything' ....... try not to be too sarcastic as I understand it is very tempting to do so because we do say some stupid things in the fog.

Dont give up but DON'T give in either!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />