I see I have promoted to member. An honor I would gladly pass on.

WW is home. We spent a good evening together and she got waited on hand and foot, something I used to do periodically as a treat.

WW drank heavily again yesterday, 19 beers over 10 hour span. I am going to hope that this is her way of relieving depression from end of affair but I will keep eyes open.

No contact from OM's SOF.

Time to get to work.

kyu

I am AW's H and she has asked me to let you know she has not abandoned you, she has just been so tired after working very hard in the house last 3 days to get it ready for a valuation.

She is reading your posts but has not been able to write to anyone for a few days...being preggers is wearing on her right now and she has to sit sidesaddle to do it.......LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
She promises to write a bit later tonight, if she wakes up of course. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

But I have to say you are doing great, I'm not sure I could have been so kind. I hope I would have been but not sure.

The only thing I'd say is make sure you let your ww know YOUR boundaries in plan A. Its not about letting her run over you & I think she has done so just a bit mate. But all in all if the A has collapsed then good. But be very very sceptical and always trust her deeds NOT her words alone.

Keep your eye on the target as AW said, and expose expose expose until the A is in the crapper.
If the OM's wife does contact you remember she is a BS like you and some gentleness might be required. However also be prepared to be told her 'wondeful H' has told her you are a madman etc etc. HAve your evidence ready to send to her if you have to. Perhaps let her know about MB as well, she might need help too.

well all the best mate carry on the good fight

KTU

woke up just in time to go to bed. But thought I'd drop in to see how it was going with you.

Aussie has given you some good advice in his own unique way ....lol

Keep trying to meet her EN's as much as she will let you and watch for signs that the A has stopped.

Still make sure you are letting her know how her actions are hurting you, though how much that will count with her at this time is debatable. Later as the fog clears she will be aware of your respectful but firm comments you make now. DONT attack her but reflect what her actions are doing to YOU.
Ask for NC forever.

If she agrees to this you may see her very moody and withdrawn & quiet, this may be signs of her withdrawal from the OM.

As she moves away from the OM she comes back towards the M and the possible recovery of the M.
Its around that time you will start to feel a lot of resentment surface and you will need to work hard to not want to just leave. Just be prepared for those feelings. But theres still alot of work to get her back into the M yet.

Let us know how you are going. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pleasure to meet you , Aussie 2.

AW, I hope you are getting lots of rest.

WW has been very warm, very loving, and has been showing some behavior changes since return. Actually, one behavior changed the night before she came back. That one was she told me she loved me very much which she hasn't said to me in a very long time. She has been intiating the I love yous, which is also a change. I can hope that these are positive signs but time will tell.

I have not talked with WW about marriage since return. A mutual friend suggested I give her a couple of days, observe behavior, and then talk with her. I will talk with her some tonight about it but will not confront her again on A just yet. That will wait until next week when I will have more time to spend with her.

I meet WW at ferry when she came home with sign with her name on it, like drivers do at airports.
I didn't think it made much impact but last night she told her parents and friend about it, which is indication she noticed it much more than I thought.

I continue with plan A. I know she is noticing the changes in my behavior, i.e. being neater, more thoughtful, spending much more time with her, doing more around house, etc. She wrote note early last month to herself, which I wasn't suppose to see, about changes in my behavior and wondering what I was up to. She was sure it had something to do with nefarious deeds on my part.

I have not heard from OM's SOF. As second letter was delivered Monday, I don't think I will be hearing from her. I am kind of out of places to expose A. For WW, the only place left is work, which our mutual friend feels would strongly push WW towards OM.

For OM, the only place I can think of is to the community in which he lives. Suggestions are welcome here.

I hope that someday, I will be able to return to something approaching normal. I do not like what I have become, "snooping" to keep up on A and the like. I want so much to go back to the old open, honest, optimistic me rather than the somewhat paranoid person I am becoming.

I hope this post goes through. I had composed one last night and when I tried to post it, it went into cyber never-never land.

Take care.

ktu


hi there! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Yeah MB server bad lately

Ok exposure is only until the affair is over. If you have exposed to all but her work at this time and the affair is ended, then you don’t expose further because then that’s REVENGE.

I’m not saying its not justified but it will just hurt the recovery of your M if that’s what you want.
However if the A is still on, then you do expose further. Yes it sounds and feels that when you expose this way you are driving her towards OM. However MB is very clear on this point. Years and years of experience in this process shows you need to continue IF the A continues.

Be a little bit careful of the mutual friend who though perhaps very well intentioned could let your WW know more about what you are doing then you wish her too. Take what the friend says with a healthy degree of doubt and may not be wise to take the info at face value only.. What you friend sees or hears is subject to the alien within WW and you know what that is like. However, the friend may help you understand where WW ‘s thinking is at various times and THAT could be very handy.

As for the OM’s wife don’t be concerned if she does not contact you. I suspect they are going through their own little drama. If there is contact send the info to his wife anyway.

Ask your wife about the A, whats going on, is she seeing him, when was the last time etc etc, but don’t attack her. Term your questions gently and no matter what response she gives don’t attack her. Show her that you are THE man she can trust and confide in, even with hurtful information.

Remember no matter what she says see if she acts on her words. Thats she starting to question things IS good. Shes wondering who this guy is whos pretending to be her H. This guy is helpful, loving supportive, tries to meet her EN's, I bet she is she so suspicious right now...again thats good.
Keep up YOUR changes now for good regardless.

The task right now is to end the Affair and have her come back to the marriage. It will not end there of course but this is the start. Once she does you have the decision to make what you want. But none of that discussion until she's back in the M.

Keep fighting along ktu, you are doing so well in the circumstances. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Thanks AW.

Cleaning out my e-mail from today, I found one from OM to me stating that all info I provided has been given to SOF. Very interesting to see what happens next.

Will keep you posted.

Good Morning.

Things just keep happening here and I seem to be about 3 steps behind the parade.

WW and I didn't talk about M. After dinner, she said "I have much I have to tell you but I am not ready yet." This was completely out of the blue, no confrontation, nothing. I told her I would wait until she was ready. She, also, maintained a lot of physical contact with me, as if, she needed to feel I still loved her in spite of all that has happened and that telling her I loved her was not enough reassurance.

WW's drinking has diminished quite a bit over last 2 days.

WW has shown a lot of changes in her behavior since return. The changes are all back to normal self, pre-A. She had a long phone conversation with parents, long phone conversation with our mutual friend, neither of these were happening while A active.

She, also, has drawn up a list of things she wants to do with her life. All positive things and things I would support her efforts on. One of her wants was to work regular daytime hours. This from a woman who for the last 24 years has worked nights by choice.

There are other things but they all seem to add up to an end of the A. I know she could be trying to be a "cake eater", or C.E. to add to the nomenclature, but I hope not. I will keep plan Aing and maintaining vigilance.

We had talked about doing something Sunday, going for a drive or exploring, but last night she said she wanted to work on household project with me. The "we" part I think is very important as in the past, this type of project has been dumped on me alone.

I hope that all of this means the A is over. I hope this means I can start building a new life with her, a much better life than we have had in the past. I, more than hope, I pray that this is so.

AW and A2, I hope all is going well for you and I will keep you posted.

Hi again Ktu

Well I’m a bit puzzled about A2’s actins right now, hes buying me things and doing the house up so I’m going to do as believer advised, sit back and enjoy it… <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
Man I love that bloke. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


Ok its SOUNDING good, really good BUT you need to watch and LISTEN to what she says when she talks to you. And what she does. She might give you a list of her EN's here to help you along in teh good fight.

Don’t LB her when she talks. Its likely she will try to lay the blame of the A on you at first. Let it slide or say something simple that acknowledges that you realise she feels that way.
If a lot of the fog has gone, then she may admit she was wrong, but many WS don’t for ages. That can be worked on with MC.
The other most common response is to want to forget the A ever happened and ‘why cant you just get over it’ attitude. [ gulp - guilty]

If the fog is still there, and you just see cake eating, I think you need to seriously consider a PLAN B response and move out & go dark. But lets see what develops first.

Now if the talk is about wanting to make a new M from the wreck of the old, because I’m guessing that you don’t want the old M back either???
You need to consider what things you require from HER to consider keeping the M, because don’t kid yourself ktu, your anger WILL kick in and you WILL consider leaving her a little way down the track.
A2 did with me, seriously thought about it. Who could blame him or you?
My feeling is that because the A was over before he knew about it, that was the only saving grace I had in his decision on that score.
For you this is something only you an decide at that time, however I feel that I am detecting some real anger in regards to the last little episode re the holiday lurking away in the back of your thoughts right now????? yes?????

The things I mean here are like NO CONTACT - nc - forever with OM, commitment to attend MC approved by you with you for as long as it takes, total honesty in ans your questions …… that sort of thing. Whatever it takes to make you feel safe to.

If she on the remote chance says she wants out - doesn’t sound like it but I’ve heard stranger things here before - then you need to get someone like Steve Harley involved ASAP to work out a plan to stop that - if you want to of course.

I do feel its more of the positive things here, but you can never be sure until you see action back up words. You need to express to her the amount of hurt she has caused you and if you feel you have doubts on if you can forgive her or want to forgive her, don’t pretend otherwise, let her know all these things but gently, the manner is important to your chances in the long term. She does need to understand how much she has to do to allow YOU to want to stay in the M.
Communication may be a bit patchy first off, but repeat the same messages over and over - no LB’s -and see how it goes.

Hoping for the best (remember dont be to accepting of what she says even if its exactly what you want - actions ktu, actions)

AW, enjoy A2's geneorisity. we men don't do it often.

Found WW's journal from trip. She and OM had 2 arguements and 2 fights, as she described it. The fights were on the last day they were together and the day she told me was an overall bad day.

There was no contact for the first 3 days after she returned. I don't know about last night. There was a call made from a number that the recording said was disconnected yesterday.

Made opening to talk about marriage today. Got no response from her of any kind.

On positive note, I made her cry last night. No I didn't upset her, I gave her a necklace for Valentine's day. She cried and said she hadn't gotten a Valentine's present in a long time, which she hasn't from me. She went into bathroom for awhile to look at necklace around her neck. Thing is, she didn't turn light on so I think she cried some more.

Got home improvements to do'

Made it through the home improvement for weekend.

I have had chance to think about recent developements. First, I don't believe OM has shown letter to SOF but his e-mail was to keep me from trying again. Could be a very good hammer.

OM did give copy to WW. I came accross it while "researching". She had written a note to me on it which was very angry in tone. She has not mentioned it since return but it does fall within WAT guidelines. Her note was written while on vacation.

I, also, see her lack of response to my opening discussion of marriage as falling into guidelines.

Will give WW her Valentine's day card with special sentiment today will and take her out for dinner. She has been talking about this dinner for several days so I think she is looking forward to it.

Time to go to work. Look forward to your response AW.

Good morning, Australia. I hope you 2 are doing well.

W and I had our dinner which was very nice. Even had live entertainment with a tugboat that missed his channel, came into the wrong harbor, and ran her aground at least twice. Quite a show.

As best I can determine, NC between W and OM.

W left me a note this AM thanking me for dinner.
Also, she wrote about a wake up call to know what is most important. She wrote about our mutual intrests, my empathy, compassion etc. I am taking this as a good sign.

Also, AW, she wrote she would like to get in touch with you. I had told her a few weeks ago that you had taken me under your wing. I may have mentioned about your offer to talk with her.
Anyway if your offer still stands, I would like to set it up.

Well, I am going to wake "sleeping beauty" and spend a few minutes with her before I go to work.

Take care.

ktu

Hi there, we are doing well and so are you two from the sound of it!! Woo Hoo .. great signs

If I can help in any way I would be glad to.
(Hi Mrs ktu would love to help if you think I can, even if you want to just ask questions or vent whatever <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> }

If your W would like she can email me on my addy below or simply post here what ever she is comfortable with. Believe me when I say it takes a lot to get the gumption to post here as a WS. If my H and many here did not encourage me I dont think I would have. Boy was I scared.

I'm learning still myself about why I react to things and how I let myself and family down in a such a stupid way.
I did try to post you yesterday but just could not get into the forum at all except for 5 mins or so. FRUSTRATING but then Aussie got home and well...AHEM.... we were very busy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I am so glad to hear that your w wants to work on you two, because thats what MB is about, you & your spouse rebuilding, making anew, boy is that harder than you think.
The really hard work begins now, its like two steps forward one back at times ...but when you get it right its like,,,wow how simple... but its not. It hard, hard emotinally draining work.

Remain hopeful but not pushy. My MC/IC told me 'you know the 'love bank' as Harley calls it can NEVER get filled, but it can darn sure empty pretty darn quick.'
So KEEP the changes you have made in you as permanent ones. I have tried to do that and found I'm starting to realise I'm so happy most of the time.

Lots of hard hurtful talks ahead but YOU will both get through them......... I'm hoping for you and saying a little prayer for both of you and your M.

Little steps now ktu, you've opened the door to her, the invitation is made and your W sounds like she wants to accept, but shes scared if I have a guess at it. Scared on a lot of levels, how can you ever forgive, how can she forgive herself, what if we fail, what happens now etc etc all tumbling through her mind like a big jumble.
Nothing you can do but what you have been, gentle, loving, supportive in the right manner (which doesnt mean giving her false reassurances)
now you watch and see what she can commit to.
Might be a bit slow but thats ok.... you can work with that.
Mmmmm she certainly sounds impressed always a good start for a woman. Could be she is seeing the man she married again do you think ktu????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

keep the good mojo going ktu ... youre doing so well... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

[hugs to you both]

Thanks for the post AW.

My W came in about 2 minutes ago to ask me to do something, which will get done as soon as I finish this.

I let her read top part of your post. I didn't want to let her see all of it because I hadn't had chance to read it.

I know we both have hard work ahead of us but to have her with me and for us both to be happy together, it is worth it.

I think W would like to communicate with you because you have a common experience and would be someone that she could confide in without worry.

She told me she would like to use "snail mail", W soesn't have much use for computers. Let me know what you are comfortable with. Another possibility might be to scan stuff and send it as an attachment.

In the meantime, I will continue to avoid love busters and do positive things for her.

I know that our first talks about this are going to be tough for both of us. I am not looking forward to it.

Well, I am going to do some more work on the floor.

email is fine with me and I do so understand your w being very wary of those who have not gone through it.

Just let her know she can email me as she needs.

Good Morning AW.

Just saw last post and will share it with her.

I don't know if she will use e-mail. She doesn't like computers. I, also, think she has concerns about my reading things she confides in you. I will offer to set up her own mailbox with password. She might buy that.

If she is not comfortable with that, I will suggest she write letters, we scan them, and send them to you through the net.

As I think this could be very important to her, and us, as we recover, somehow we will find a way.

Time to go as I need to write her a little note in response to yesterday's note.

Morning ktu - evening for me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


Your wifes worry about you reading what she types is a valid one for her. Until she feels secure so she can share this with you it is important to have this 'space'. I surely needed it.

A2 & I had an agreement - part of POJA, Policy of Joint Agreement - where we agreed not to read each others posts until we ok'ed it. That was hard - I was VERY curious and so wanted to read his posts lol - but I kept to it & so did he as far as I know.

But perhaps setting up a email account, letting her choose password and then giving her the space to post to me would help........why not set it up and let her try some test posts like hi there did you get this..... laugh all you like but I had to do that with IM when I first got on a PC & not long ago either....

But whatever she feels ok with ktu <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Hey the baby just moved about 30 mins ago ain't that great? Figure its a boy - never wait until the right time heh heh <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Good day AW.

I talked over options with W on communications and she is thinking about it.

We talked some last night about A and M.

I did one of the small things that she dislikes, I jumped up to get a phone call while in kitchen with her. She took me to task over it and I apologized.

From there, she ask if I had talked with OM's SOF. I told her no, which I haven't. I told her that if A was over, I had no intrest in further contact with OM or SOF.

She talked some about their lack of common intrests and that he was a troubled man. I didn't push on this.

I did tell her again that I was committed to making our marriage better and hoped that she would join me in effort. She responded this time and said she would do her best. This is first time she made any reply. I thanked her and let it go at that.

Going back to A, she did tell me that she would probably write to OM. I didn't respond as I felt that pushing for NC letter last night would be a mistake, i.e. an angry outburst from me.

I know that I left a lot up in air but I was very tired and stressed from current work project, a kitchen that is behind schedule with lots of design changes and a home owner that gets in way.

W's drinking is much decreased.

Well, need to get ready togo to kitchen from hell.

Things continue to show some improvement here. W's drinking much decreased, which makes me very happy.

Not much happening on marriage. W worked last 2 nights and works again tonight so not much time to talk, not that I want to right now. I am facing one of those hurdles I have to get over in terms of wanting to chuck everything and run away. This will go away as I get things done so its just temporary. Also, this is being caused by more than marriage.

W still has her"journal" of affair and picture of OM. I feel threatened by this but, also, think that she is still "withdrawing" so I am leaving it alone for now. I am going to give her another 2-3 weeks before I tell her how I feel about it.

In the meantime, I will continue with plan A behaviors.

Take care AW.

Dont know you can do much ktu right now, the ball is in your W court.
I dont feel it would be wise to ask & ask about the issues directly constantly right now.
I think it would just drive back into herself where she would not answer anything.
I had to take little steps until I felt ok to do more. That will be different for all.
Perhaps a more indirect approach will help

keep the Plan A thing going, reassuring with actions and try try not to Love Bust her ok?

I know you may want to yell at her and call her names to release your hurt and anger but right now dont.
A2 & I had a little set too last night/early this morning & a lot of hard words were said, but I'm not made of sugar puff I wont melt and fade away because of it. Hes got to work through his anger like I have to work through the hurt I caused and the sense of worthlessness. Sucks big time. Cried like a baby.
Its not easy for either of us and I expect we may always have some difficulty with this but hopefully less intense and more of regret. It takes years from what I have seen.
I guess we have to learn all over again how to fight fair.

Thanks for post AW.

I will continue to be patient and keep up the positive stuff. I spent yesterday doing domestic stuff to help her with stuff she doesn't like doing, not that I am overly crazy about it now that I have done it.

She appreciates the help and I still think she is a little bit suspicious of the motive. Someday, I will tell her.

I hope things are getting smoother there today between you and A2. I wish I had some great pearl of wisdom to share that would help.

I will keep you 2 in my prayers.