Good Morning All! I wasn't sure if I should post here or start a new thread. Last night was NOT good. (which led to bad dreams that have had ne awake since about 3:30 this morning). See, I found a letter written by either my H or the OW the day after the first PE(physical encounter). It was rough to read. My H said he couldn't remember it, and was surprised he kept it regardless of who wrote it. I am not sure if I believe that. How can you not remember something like that? Also, it showed that the first PE was on a Friday night instead of a Saturday, which doesn't mean much in the long run, but I asked him, you don't even remember the first time you ****ed her? (sorry about the language--this has definitely brought out the worse side of me). How could you not remember that? So, I started to dig deeper into the computer, and what I have found so far does indicate that on a general level, the time line has been right. This letter, though, indicates much deeper feelings than I though were there. However, he did tell me that she felt that way even before the sex( which would make sense as a woman). My question is, how can I be sure who wrote the note, and does it really matter if the affair is over and done with now? He is actually talking about her in a less positive light now. Is that a trick, too? Sorry for my ramblings!

Dear True,
Rocked here. Sorry for your bad night and continued new revelations. How you feeling 2day?

I am still pretty shaken. Even more so when I started looking at the history a little more closely. It is incredible to me that this man that I love more than life could be so cruel, and could ever develop "feelings" for someone else.
Also, I witnessed first hand last night how he can totally separate things. He and I were having a VERY intimate discussion and when we were done, he started talking to his mom. He said, it was like this during the affair as well. He would kiss her at lunch and then call me(he called me every day at lunch and talked for some time). He said he could just separate his time with her from his time with me and the family. He was not one of those people who would sit and think , oh I wish I was with her, when he was with us. Is that a man thing? I think I cant completely understand him on this issue, because I am a woman, and have no clue what men are thinking!

To some degree that can be a "man-thing." We're pretty thickheaded at times knowing what really makes our W tick.

I firmly believe both H & W play a part in creating the environment in a marriage. Obviously the environment in your and my marriages was one conducive to our spouses cheating. My question to you is...how do you feel you helped create the pre-A environment? And plz let me know if I need to reward the question.

sorry for the long response time, i was making my kids breakfast. also excuse my typing, my 2 yr. old is sitting here with me, and i can only type with one hand. as for your question; i am still trying to figure out my part. let me kind of explain my relationship. my h and i have been best friends since i was 17. our marriage has always been based more on that friendship than passion. that part, i hate to admit, is my fault. my h has too much passion and it is not always for me,obviously. in the past few years i have felt that our friendship has grown, but that he only viewed me as a friend because of how often he would discuss wanting to swing with other couples, and how attractive he felt other women were. we were always completely honest about that, but that was hard to take.
then in june we took a week long trip to ireland for our 10 yr anniversary. it was wonderful, and i felt the old spark. i also have to tell you that this was the first trip alonesince our oldest was born 9 years ago. talk about a child centered marriage.
also, my h and i just have different views on how to express our love. he says he feels like i didnt want to spend time with him, and that i didnt find him desirable. both of which are false, he just never did things on my terms.
looking back i can see we were in more trouble than i thought, but i think since we were such good friends it never occured to me that love wasnt enough.
gosh that was long. sorry.

I can understand how your relationship leveled off in "status quo" if you have always been with each other and friendship was the sole foundation. In fact, I would assume that a guy who married his 17 yr old girlfriend would one day, yrs later, wonder if he jumped the gun and missed out on other things. That's not right, but it happens.

What do you do for your H that makes him feel like "King of the Jungle"? And I'm not just talking about sex.

just to clarify, he didn't marry me at 17. we didn't get married until 6 years later, but the feeling was the same because we were together in college and didnt go out with other people. he has always regretted that in a sense.
as for the king of the jungle thing...hmmm...i guess i would have to say i didnt if he felt like he needed to stray. see, my ways of making him feel special are doing little things for him all the time. or doing things for him that i dont necessarily want to(both normal stuff and sexual stuff). as i stated before we did not have a boring bedroom relationship, even though the passion wasnt there constantly, when it was, it really was. i did a lot for him, which is why i was shocked to find that he still needed porn and another woman. he tells me that is a male things as well.

Good morning guys. Slept good last night which is always a major accomplishment. My husband has a meeting with her today (and the manager between them) to go over year end stuff and new year goals. We prayed before he left for work. I have spent all morning asking God to help me with his job. I don't want him to quit...I feel like I've lost enough...why should I have to give up the good life? But I hate that they see each other.

We spent the night going back and forth over why I should stay married to him. He just kept telling me how much he loves me, how sorry he is. He kept asking me "How can I love you better?" He's prayed that same request "God show me how to love my wife better." He told me he is starting a men's bible study at our church this Sat. and he is trying to show me how much he is trying. But I told him last night "you know you had other options if you weren't happy than to have an affair...with one of your employees!" "you know you had Christian friends, pastors, other Christian couples. Don't try to pretend that NOW you understand your other options. You knew them all along. All you could think about was ****ing her and you were weak and gave into temptation." I told him he knew he should have asked God to remove the temptation, but instead sat in church EVERY Sunday probably thinking about her. I told him that he hasn't been REAL with God and he isn't being real with himself.

All he tells me is "I can't believe that I am this horrible person. That is what Satan wants me to believe so that I can't find the victory in God. I know I fell and sinned, but I am a good, Godly man who was good to you for 6 years of marriage and 4 years of dating before that. God has called me back, I will not dwell in the guilt and shame."

I understand his point, but I want him too. I want him to suffer consequences. He kept his job, his family and even her working for him. Somehow this doesn't seem fair!

Let me let you in on something about guys...we need more than sex and the little things you do to keep a household running. Both are GREATLY appreciated but the soul of a man needs to feel that he is respected and admired. My wife would consent to sex, but it mostly ended up making me feel like I wasn't valued or desired. I hate to put it this way but kinda like masturbating inside her, if that makes sense. She wasn't into it with passion, creativity, etc. I told her "I wanted to feel wanted". Unfortunately when I felt her holding out, in response I began to hold out. And then the downward spiral.

Two books I'd like to recommend: 1)Love & Respect by Dr. Emerson Eggerichs. His premise is that what a woman really wants is love and what a man really wants is respect. 2)The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman. His premise is that we all have a primary type love lang (words of affirmation, quality time, receiving gifts, acts of service, and physical touch). And if you're trying to communicate your love in a way (household chores, etc) that is not his primary language (words of affirmation) he's not recv'g your communication. AND...off he goes to find someone who will speak his language.

Sorry this is so long.

Dear 2,
Good morning. Now on to business. :-) You're a straight-forward person, so I'll be straight forward with you. You gotta stop throwing the past in his face if you want any chance of a future with him. (I'm preaching to myself here too as you and I are in the same boat). He feels guilty and is trying to act upon his new commitment. Encourage him in those regards. When the time is appropriate rationally discuss "what happened" in the past...if it will assist in building a better future with you. You and I both want to make our spouse pay and feel hurt, but that only builds the wall higher. Feedback??

Thanks Rocked. I know you are right, but I'm struggling so much with the whole thing. You see, my father cheated on my mother several times in their 30 years of marriage. The last one, she finally left. He's been miserable since, she's as happy as a lark! I hated that my mother "had" to stay for me and my sister because she didn't think she could make it on her own, or she didn't think she'd find someone else. The first time my father cheated on my mother is remarkably similar. She was pregnant with her second child and so was I. He "loved" her and so did my husband (though he tries to say he now knows that wasn't love). I am terrified that he will do it again.

My mother finally confronted me and asked me if our problems where because he had cheated on me? I told her yes and told her all relevant information. My mother is a Christian woman (now) and said "if he's sorry, you need to forgive him and go forward." But then in the next breathe she told me she was soooooo sure my father was sorry the first time, that she didn't even catch it the second time until it was WAY deep. He got the other woman pregnant and she had an abortion. That is the affair I remember. I was about 9 or 10.

I am so afraid I am seeing the beginning of pattern. My H was dissatisfied with life, my father has always been dissatisfied with life. My H created several "personalities"...one way at home, another at work, another with friends, etc. My dad the same way. On the surface, they are very different people. My husband is gentle and quiet, not easily angered, agreeable. My father was a raving lunatic most of the time. He flies off the handle, is obnoxious and completely irrational 95% of the time. The other difference is that my husband is a Christian and my father was not. I thought that would protect me from the pain my mother experienced, but it didn't.

Rocked, my husband got another woman because she behaved like a groupie. She was impressed by him and made him feel important. I on the other hand had him helping me bath the kids and pick his shoes up off the floor. As strong as I am, my husband was the head of the house and I always felt I was being respectful and stroking his ego. I was not up for sex more than once a week, but we always had good passionate sex. My husband is very handsome and I have always been very attracted to him.

My point is this. I was doing the best job I knew how. If he wasn't happy he had other options than to screw his employee. I just can't get past that. I never knew he was unhappy until about 6 months ago, at which point he was 6 months into the affair and started believing that he loved her. I can't fix something that I don't know is broken. He always had the option of telling, but never did.

Rocked, I know about the 5 love languages, I guess I just never followed through on them. He would often share similar thoughts, that although the things we were doing were exciting, he felt like he was "forcing" them on me; that i didnt really want them. I told him he was a fool, because I'm strong enough to tell him to take a hike, but I now see what he really wanted. The OW built him up, and made secret time to talk and do other things with him. She basically idolized him and let him know it everday. My H is very needy that way, and now I see that.
2,
Sorry to hear that you had a rough time last night. Although my situation is different, I empathize with your feelings of anxiety over the work issue. When she approached him yesterday, I realized how easy it is for them to meet and see each other at work. Plus, he has admitted to talking to me while she was sitting at his desk. I felt that was also a huge intrution to our marriage. Does that make sense? I know it is hard, but I understand your not wanting to give up the lifestyle, too Why should you suffer any more, unless the constant anxiety makes you physically sick, then you suffer anyway. Rough times, I know.

I know, I know. I've said the same thing to my W. "If you were feeling lonely and unappreciated, then why didn't you tell me so we could work on it? Why did you have to seek to have that need met by someone else?" She told me she tried to tell me in certain terms but that I wasn't hearing her. She's prob right. But it doesn't make the sting any less now when I replay what she did.

Can you think of anyway that your husband may have been trying to communicate with you that you weren't picking up on? If he is the respected Kingpin at work, does he come home to you only to be diaper wiper and task-master?

True,

Something you said has been bothering me all morning. You said your husband has suggested that you guys "swing" and that he has been attracted to other people.

This is very serious True. Your husband doesn't sound all that remorseful to me. He sounds as though he is glad he did it and has even encouraged you to do it?! Not good!

Now don't misunderstand me. I'm sure he loves you, but his "desire" to have sex with others is dangerous. He has to get that under control. He has to know that it not OK with you and that it is sinful in thought and action. This is now a good time to insist on his building some short of spiritual life or I am afraid you will find yourself in the same boat sometime down the road.

Rocked, my husband has been diagnosed as a "conflict avoidant" by our counselor. He grew up in a dictatorship single mother household. What she said went. And my h began to treat me this way even though it was not required. He began to see me as a mother figure, once I became a mother. I did not realize it, but he began to just agree with whatever I wanted to do...again that easy going side of him I thought. But I now know that he was feeling like his opinion didn't matter, like I was walking all over him. I wasn't and he admits now that he knows that, but at the time that was how he felt. He was afraid to confront me about his feeling "conflict avoidant" because he was never allowed to do that as a child. All this has come out in counseling. It is very helpful.

Anyway, I'm off for most of the day with the kids and some friends. Enjoy your conversations and I will be back on in several hours.
God Bless!

True,
We can only control/change ourself. So, focus on what YOU can change, which is YOU. As you begin to be the person God made you to be and commit to give to your husband what he is needing/looking elsewhere for, I believe great turn-arounds can happen.

My last night was not the best with my W, mainly cuz I wasn't wanting to give her what she wanted. Openness, intimate conversation, all the little things that make her feel loved. And guess what I got...nothing! The wall was raised and progress halted. No give-no receive!

A big struggle emotionally for me is that I know I need to move on and be "Forward-focused", which results in recovery. But part of me feels that by doing that her past sin is overlooked and my emotions are de-valued. Make sense?

2, I completely agree with you.
The thing of the matter is that before the affair, my H thought extramarital sex could just be that--sex. Now he says that he sees that he put emotions into. He felt that they had a bond after the sex, which is what led to the more EA. I tell him that no, the reason he felt "bonded" was because he engaged in the EA first when he started talking to her in secret.
Your post about your father/husband scare me, because I see my H in them also. I am sacred stiff that he will do this again.
He does seem remorseful, though. Even if I dont make him sound that way. Unlike most people on his board, he came to me with the affair. I did not discover some tidbit about it. Well, no I did, but he had already started to prepare me for it with things we talked about right before it. He was waiting until we moved closer to home, but when he saw I was suspicious, he admitted everything, even though he knew that I would probably leave, because I had always said here was no way I would stay with a man like that. (Boy was I surprised at my own reaction.) I did not have to convince him to leave this woman, he left, and has not looked back. Maybe I'm just delusional, but I guess part of me needs to stay hopeful so that I can forgive him.

True,
Do you believe that sex by a married person with anyone other than their marriage partner is wrong? E or P doesn't change what it is.

Rocked, I totally understand. I think that I feel like if I start giving to him too soon, he'll think that it was ok for him, and that he didn't have to "pay" for it. What kind of discouragement from future A's is that? On the other hand, four days after he told me, I felt like being "with" him again. More for my own emotions than giving in to him. Luckily, he was smart enough to tell me it was too early. I though I was so unusual, because I even let him hold me after he told me the news as I broke down. He still made me feel safe. Weird, eh?
I read somewhere that you have to start doing before you start feeling, so I am trying to make sure that I continue to tell/show him that I love him, desire him, and need him, even when I am in my down time. Believe it or not, it usually makes me feel better.

No, not weird! The night I told my wife I knew about her A and she admitted it, later at bedtime she stood at the bed as if waiting to get instructions from me to sleep somewhere else or ?. Strangely I asked her to lay down with me and we held each other and cried. We were even intimate. I was angry and crushed, but we still shared 19 years together and somehow the "2 shall become 1" thing kicked in. Possibly cuz I realized I had been part of the problem. A's usually aren't one-sided.