HER:<P>What happened to you? You dropped this bomb here and then left? WOW, don't you have anything more to say to all of us misguided "BS's" ?<P>Just wondering. Looks like you left when the discussion was just getting started. We'd like to hear more from you.<P>Z<P><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

DITTO Alberta, Zorweb, etc!!!<BR>I do not think any OP can justify their actions - it is adultery, plain and simple. No matter what the spouse says re his/her marriage, he/she owes it to their spouse to communicate their unhappiness and try to work it out. Didn't our marriage vows say "for better or worse."??????<BR>If after trying to work it out, there is no hope, then you separate, divorce, then you can hook up with someone!!! not while you are "married" - the word "married" is the key word, are OP's forgetting that???? no matter what the circumstances, who can justify adultery?????????? After all, isn't "Thou shall not commit adultery" one of the 10 Commandments? or am I mistaken????<BR>S

Zorweb:<P>Haven't left, lost my hard drive, machine is in the shop.<P>I never said the betrayed spouses were misguided. What I said is that there are two sides to every story. Not to justify my choice, but to let you know that most of us don't think what's going on is funny. We don't laugh at you or think of this as a triumph. It's not an ego trip, we're not sluts or bimbos, shallow or stupid. Most of us would rather be doing anything but this and wonder how, after all this time and all we know, we ended up here. I have always, having experienced the other side (and don't I get any credit for that here? I've been the 'BS' too. It's not like I don't have any understanding of what you feel), been very vocal about other women and marriage. This, as much as you may not believe it, is a nightmare and the exact opposite of everything I thought I believed. Love is an incredibly compelling emotion. <P>There's another side to the 'working it out' story, which is that sometimes people are ready to leave for a very long time and don't really have anything that compels them. Men seem to be particularly guilty of this, although it's certainly not exclusive to them. The marriage is over and has been for years but nothing has pushed them over the edge to change their circumstances. Suddenly, in another woman, they have a way out, someone to cushion their fall. Then, who really ended what? Should the two people in the marriage have just gone on indefinitely, making each other miserable? Why is it that most women blossom after divorce and discover things about themselves that they never knew? Why do people keep plodding on for years making each other feel grey and invisible, but when one of them finds someone else the entire blame for all the years of all the stuff that you put each other through is heaped at the doorstep of the other woman?<P>I was a betrayed wife once. Now I look back and realize that, although the other woman in my situation didn't help things any, the fundamental issue was that we shouldn't have been married any more. He wavered between the two of us for over a year before I finally insisted that he file for divorce. He told her one thing and me something entirely different. I could hear in the tone of his voice the minute he picked up the phone whether he was getting along with her that week or missing me.<P>No, they didn't stay together after he and I divorced. She also ended up being a reasonably nice person. I think my husband needed encouragement out of a bad situation. If he hadn't we might have gone on making each other miserable for a much longer time.<P>Other women are often symptoms, not causes.

Her:<P>I've started a reply to you but want to have it be well thought through. Unfortuanately I have to go to work now. Hate the way work interferes with life (LOL). Anyway, will finish it up after work.<P>Z

JUSTIFY, JUSTIFY, JUSTIFY!!!! Hope it makes YOU feel better. After all, that's why you are really here, right? Again, go to the site for the OW - you'll get lots of support there.

I find it interesting that there are plenty of wives on the Other Woman message board, sounding off there, too.<P>I thought perhaps, since you in your position spend so much time thinking about her and what she's done that some of you might want to talk right to the other woman. Sometimes that helps.<P>Talking is better than not talking. Notice please, that I've been respectful and not abusive. <P>I thought I would offer dialogue, a way to ask what she was thinking, since so many of you seem to wonder.<P>I still respectfully extend that offer.<P>

I hear a lot of black and white talk here. There is no doubt that my H's XOW was nice, understanding (at least to him, she was), intelligent, engaging. However, she was also manipulative, shrewd, and vindictive. <P>People don't go around with signs on their backs that say, "Hey, I'm good" and "Hey, I'm evil." We are a combination of both good AND evil, and capable of acts that correspond with those identifiers. An OW can donate all of her worldly goods to a battered women's shelter (good) and have an EMR with a MM at the same time (evil).<P>What is the remedy? If you do something really harmful and bad, my *God,* at least have the balls to admit to it. Be honest. There is never an excuse for an EMR. Not ever. They are, plain and simple, a very evil act. Admitting that we are the perpetrators of an evil act is the first step to taking responsibility. And it's a good lesson in humility, as well.<P>belld

Her,<P>"Now all three of us can only do the best we can to cause the least damage."<P>Read what you wrote. . .do you even hear what you're saying??<BR>

I don't understand you. You were betrayed once? Since you were, why would you intentionally have an affair with someone else's H?

I'm with you Bitsy. <P>"Now all three of us can only do the best we can to cause the least damage."<P>"Her", I understand the damage you and your MM are doing. Please explain what damage your MM's wife is doing?<P>Z

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zorweb:<BR><B>I'm with you Bitsy. <P>"Now all three of us can only do the best we can to cause the least damage."<P>"Her", I understand the damage you and your MM are doing. Please explain what damage your MM's wife is doing?<P>Z</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, long before I was ever in the picture she was physically violent, up to and including attacks with a butcher knife in front of his children. When they fight she wakes them up and tells them that Daddy doesn't love them any more and that soon they'll have to live on the street. He has always tried to keep their difficulties out of the children's sight, but his wife drags them into it any time she can and uses their fear and confusion to manipulate him.<P>If a woman is in an abusive relationship everyone encourages her to leave, and if she has an affair on the way out people can hardly blame her. If a man is in a relationship where his wife tries to kill him in front of his children, somehow he's still the [censored] when he finds love somewhere else.<P>Yes, he and I have done something we shouldn't. Now, as I've mentioned before, I have stopped seeing him until he does whatever he's going to do, and if he goes home I won't ever see him again. I take responsibility for my part in the betrayal (which occurred after he began divorce proceedings, and which was never kept from his wife). My postings, again, have not been to justify but to offer another viewpoint, an insight into the other side. I see wives from this message board on the Other Woman board all the time, looking for just that.<P>However, the damage she is doing to her children and to their relationship with physical and verbal abuse coupled with blatant manipulation is huge and has nothing to do with me. I know I've tried to minimize the damage I do in many ways, including not seeing him any more at this point, but I don't see her trying to minimize anything where her children are concerned. If she's going to call me a homewrecker then she ought to take the time to wonder what the things they see her doing are going to look like in their memories ten or twenty years from now.<P><P>------------------<BR>There's more than one side to every story...

Her,<P>If it is true that she was physically abusive in the manner you say, then there is a definitely problem. I have a close family friend married to a woman who has done exactly the same types of things… the violence and emotional games with the children. After the last time she threatened to shoot him in front of the kids I helped my brother strip the house of all fire arms, knifes etc. They are all hidden in my house now. I understand that men have a very hard time dealing with this. My friend is 6’ and in excellent physical shape. She is 5’10”, size 6. So he could restrain her. But he knows that if he does he will be blamed for abuse. <BR>There have been times when he could have brought charges against her with witnesses to prove his case. He would get custody of their children. But he will not. If he were to do this he could at least protect his 3 children from the abuse. But instead he continues to live with her and allow the children to be subjected to this abuse. After trying the help him for a few years, I finally told him that he is not a party to the abuse. He is as guilty as she is. I have also told him that if I am ever present when she starts her physical threats I will call 911 and do what he does not have the strength to do.<BR>Yes, I know that there are times when people would tend to be more excepting of an EMA. I do not believe however that an EMA is ever the right course of action. In the case of abuse, the abused spouse needs to first get out of their marriage. Then and only then can they pursue a new relationship. I do not say this judgmentally or with no knowledge. My XH was very abusive. One of his worst abuses is that he refused to have sex with me for most of the last 7 years of our marriage. I had as much reason as anyone for having an affair. However I knew that if I did that I would be using another person as a stepping-stone. I did not want to do this to anyone. I finished to work on my marriage, got my divorce and moved on. It was the only sane thing to do.<BR>You also must remember that since you have not been in his home with him and his wife, you really do not know what is going on there. I know of a couple of abusers (men and women) who tell the outside world the stories of the abuse that goes on in their home. Only when they tell the stories they switch who is doing what. The only reason I know that they are twisting the story is that I have had the pleasure of being present during some of the abuse.<P>To change the subject… You said:<BR>“I thought I would offer dialogue, a way to ask what she was thinking, since so many of you seem to wonder.”<P>I can only speak for myself, but I do not wonder what my XH or my current husband’s OW are thinking. I know that these women consider me to be a non-person. I feel the same way about them. I only want them out of my life.<P>My XH had several affairs with women. I do not believe that any of these women even gave me a second thought. They wanted my husband and I was just in the way. My greatest revenge is that he is no longer with any of those women. He was just using them. <P>My current H had several affairs with women he met on the Internet. At first I felt sorry for them because he told them that he was single. I contacted each of them and let them know that he is married and was carrying on with 10 other women. Each of these women promised me that they were horrified and would not interfer further with our marriage. Well, since that time all but one of the women have expressed to me that they are still interested in my husband. Each of them feels that their relationship with him was the only one that was SPECIAL. A few have demanded that I give him the message. They felt that I was keeping him away from them. They do not believe that he willingly stopped all contact.<P>In my case I don’t care what the other women are thinking or feeling. They are of no importance to me. They are nothing. I do however hope that they suffer pain in their lives to match the pain they caused me. <P>Yes, yes I know that my husband is the one that I have to ultimately hold responsible for his actions. He acted out of his own free will. I see my husband daily and I know that he has caused himself great pain by his actions. I can forgive him and work on our marriage because I know he is truly understands magnitude of harm he caused. I believe that each and every one of us can make some pretty stupid choices in our lives and redemption is available to those who repent.<P>On the other hand, my XH will never feel any remorse for his actions. I cannot forgive him.<P><BR>Z

Her, <P>If you love something, let it go. If it comes back to you--free of strings this time, you know it's yours.<P>If you love this man, let him figure out his problems first, then come back to you. Is he such a child that he needs your intervention to handle his issues? Isn't that disrespectful of this great love you two share? Isn't that insulting his intelligence? <P>To show him support would be to let him find his way--unhindered by you. That shows respect. <P>It's what I would do for my own H if he felt the need to resurrect his past affair. I'd go into plan B and leave. No contact with him whatsoever until he decided <I>for himself</I> if it was going to be her or our marriage that he would dedicate himself to.<P>I wouldn't want him back if he still wanted to be with her. That only means he's not really mine. Who needs that kind of relationship? <P>That's what women who have courage do. That's how we behave.<P>I have to wonder why your MM would ever stay with such a psychopath (the way he's portrayed her to you) anyway? Why is there even <B>indecision</B> to go or stay with such a monster who endangers his children? He's already got grounds that his W is unstable if she's threatening the kids. He's be a shoe-in for custody, I'd imagine--if their safety is at stake.<P>Do you think he's being entirely truthful to you about the situation? MM like to paint themselves the victim of horrible marriages, you know. I'm wondering...if he is telling you the truth--what kind of a masochistic weakling is he that he takes such abuse and doesn't protect his own children? <P>My personal belief, as a former BS is that if I had an affair with a MM, as kind as intelligent as I am, and as sweet and intelligent as he would be, the union would be evil if he was still bound within the sanctity of marriage. Affairs are not blessed. <P>I would lose self respect. I may even find myself trying to find validation and justification on a marriage board from betrayed wives in the pretext of being available to field questions. <P>Her, eventually you may see, or maybe you won't, that your motivation here is not to educate or promote understanding. Please! You're having an affair. You're not Ghandi! <P>You're just trying to boost your own self esteem. You need to do that because, subconsciously, you know full well you've already lowered your morals. <P>You think your "love" justifies your affair. Real love doesn't even act this way. <P>I've had many discussions with many OW. Including extensive ones with the one in our case, my beloved SIL and also one of my good friends who I love. The one common thread I've found is total selfishness and egocentricity. They are in total "Taker" mode. They don't know how to do "the right thing". They may have high I.Q.'s but they don't have very elevated thinking. Not where men are concerned. They are not enlightened. <P>And they don't know how to get their needs met in an emotionally balanced, healthy and openly honest relationship. Perhaps this may have been a factor in the downfall of your previous marriage as well?<P>I've found I can talk to OW, but can never hold a realistic conversation about affairs with them. Not until they're out of the fog of their own making. <P>Hoping one day you will see things clearly,<P>L<P>P.S. You should not be acting as their marriage/guidance counselor, either. And not just because you have a long history of poor romantic judgments. If you honestly wanted to help their marriage have a chance, as you said you once did, instead of offering them books and advice, you should have gracefully and permanently taken yourself out of the equation. <p>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited June 09, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Leilana:<BR><B>Her, <P>If you love something, let it go. If it comes back to you--free of strings this time, you know it's yours.<P>If you love this man, let him figure out his problems first, then come back to you. Is he such a child that he needs your intervention to handle his issues? Isn't that disrespectful of this great love you two share? Isn't that insulting his intelligence? <P>To show him support would be to let him find his way--unhindered by you. That shows respect...<P>P.S. You should not be acting as their marriage/guidance counselor, either. And not just because you have a long history of poor romantic judgments. If you honestly wanted to help their marriage have a chance, as you said you once did, instead of offering them books and advice, you should have gracefully and permanently taken yourself out of the equation. <P>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited June 09, 2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm not sure how many times I have to write the words "I no longer see him and have broken things off until he makes a decision." That's exactly what I have done. I think you call that 'Plan B' over here. If he goes home (she says for the fiftieth time), then I will never see him again or make any attempt to continue the relationship. <P>By the way, I'm the one who said on more than one occasion that if there was even the slightest chance that he could fix the marriage that he owed it to himself and his family to explore that. I'm the one who told him he'd never be able to live with himself if he didn't do that. How poor is that advice? If it had come from another friend besides the "OW," you'd laud it as very sound. Me, though, I'm not in a position to give advice... I'm sure I don't have any idea what I'm talking about...<P>So, in encouraging him to explore reconciliation and removing myself from his life regardless of how strongly I feel for him, what is it that I haven't done that you think I should do? I have sent him home. I have broken off contact. Other than coming here to speak my piece (and to remind myself of the positions and feelings of everyone involved) I have taken no other action. <P>Secondly, one failed marriage at 22 with my high school sweetheart hardly constitutes a 'long history of poor romantic judgments' - especially when, in that relationship, I was the betrayed wife. If your betrayal in your marriage wasn't poor judgment on your part (and how could it be?), then neither was mine. That's one moment where I was actually standing in your shoes, where I would think you would have little motivation to judge me. Why are you here for support for infidelity and yet wanting to cast aspersion on the relationship of mine that fits the 'BS' criteria?<P>Thirdly, I don't know how many times I have to say that I don't mean to justify my actions, but that means that both of us know that this wasn't the best choice.<P>The fact remains, though, that you can't 'type' the other woman.<P>I've never been a taker. I volunteer with dying people, which, let me tell you, 'takers' don't do. I haven't taken his money, and now I no longer take his time. All my life others have asked me for advice, help, and support, which people don't do when someone isn't 'enlightened,' or their thinking isn't 'elevated.' The wife of the man I love (and am avoiding now, just in case I haven't made that perfectly clear) sees me one way, but the people whose hands I've held while they left this world, sometimes without anyone else there with them, see something else.<P>You're right about the morals. I never, never, never would have dreamed I'd be in this situation. If I had it to do over I wouldn't be.<P>The fact remains, though, that it's not a specific kind of woman who chooses this, and seeing all sides of something, for those who have the strength, is always a learning experience that helps them to go forward.<P>------------------<BR>There's more than one side to every story...<P>[This message has been edited by Her (edited June 09, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Her (edited June 09, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Her:<BR><B>In my case he asked her for a divorce before anything serious ever happened between the two of us; even his wife, when they're not in the heat of an argument, admits that the problems were there long before I ever made an appearance.</B>[/b]<P>So any problems that a marriage may encounter makes having an affair "permissible" to you? It's ok? Forgiveable? Makes the OP less of a monster? For this line of reasoning, you're saying that everything would have to be perfect in his marriage for an H's affair and the OP to be "reprehensible".<P>What alot of us our saying here is that it doesn't matter to what "degree" you consider your MM married, he's still married. Even when he's "almost divorced". Even if the marriage is ailing. It's not up to any OP to "encourage", "give advice to", or "emotionally support" their MM or MW.<P>It's between the two "miserable" spouses--and only them.<P><B>I have never made any attempt to contact him at home or to disrupt his home life any more than our relationship already has. It is he who continues to reopen lines of communication and I who continually hesitate to give him words of love or encouragement because I don't want to pull him in my direction as long as he believes this promise is necessary.</B><P>You aren't <B>refusing</B> to speak to him either, if this this quote is an indication. That is not "Plan B". No contact means exactly "No Contact".<P><B>Now all three of us can only do the best we can to cause the least damage.</B><P>No Contact does this.<P>If he's divorced, honey, he's yours. Until then, they're eachtohers. "Emotional divorce" or not. I don't care how "almost divorced" he is...<P>Are you afraid he will continue his "status quo" existence and NOT get a divorce? That being with you is not motivation <I>enough</I> to get a real divorce?<P>If that's the case, you really would be better off walking away. Who wants a man that is so apathetic?<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Leilana:<BR><B>[QUOTE]Originally posted by Her:<BR>I have never made any attempt to contact him at home or to disrupt his home life any more than our relationship already has. It is he who continues to reopen lines of communication and I who continually hesitate to give him words of love or encouragement because I don't want to pull him in my direction as long as he believes this promise is necessary.</B><P>You aren't <B>refusing</B> to speak to him either, if this this quote is an indication. That is not "Plan B". No contact means exactly "No Contact".<P><B>Now all three of us can only do the best we can to cause the least damage.</B><P>No Contact does this.<P>If he's divorced, honey, he's yours. Until then, they're eachtohers. "Emotional divorce" or not. I don't care how "almost divorced" he is...<P>Are you afraid he will continue his "status quo" existence and NOT get a divorce? That being with you is not motivation <I>enough</I> to get a real divorce?<P>If that's the case, you really would be better off walking away. Who wants a man that is so apathetic?<P><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Again, here is what I have said most recently: "I'm not sure how many times I have to write the words "I no longer see him and have broken things off until he makes a decision." That's exactly what I have done. ... If he goes home (she says for the fiftieth time), then I will never see him again or make any attempt to continue the relationship. <P>So, in encouraging him to explore reconciliation and removing myself from his life regardless of how strongly I feel for him, what is it that I haven't done that you think I should do? I have sent him home. I have broken off contact. Other than coming here to speak my piece (and to remind myself of the positions and feelings of everyone involved) I have taken no other action. "<P>I said no contact. I said that he should work on his marriage. He is, and that's not apathy. I wouldn't want him if he wasn't sure. I've already told you that: "I'm the one who said on more than one occasion that if there was even the slightest chance that he could fix the marriage that he owed it to himself and his family to explore that. I'm the one who told him he'd never be able to live with himself if he didn't do that."<P>That is no contact. That is refusing to speak to him. That is encouraging reconciliation and not being afraid to lose him if he's meant to stay in his marriage. Please, if you want to address the things I say, then don't backtrack and continue to beat a moot point to death. <BR>

Her:<P>As more of your story unfolds here... things become clearer.<P>I for one applaud you for letting him go. You are basically Plan B'ing him. I now that was hard, very hard. But it is the right thing to do.<P>If indeed his wife is indeed the psycho he says she is I hope he tries very seriously to get her the help she needs. If she will not cooperate with the help, then I do hope he ends his marriage for the sake of his children and himself.<P>Then and only then, do I hope you get the relationship you would like to have with this man.<P>I think that what I, and others here, are reacting to is the idea you have stated that in some cases adultery is Ok or at least understandable. Most of us do not share that feeling with you. I know that I do not share it because I’ve been through hell and back with my marriages. I am in my third marriage right now…. And no I am not some bimbo who goes from one man to the next. I have also watched so many of my friends and family (I have 7 siblings) go through hell with adultery in their marriages that I’ve become a staunch believer that a marriage is not over until the divorce papers are signed. And then the divorced person should not date for at least a year after signing the papers. When I was in my 20’s I had much loose beliefs about this. At 51, with a lot of life’s bruises to show, I feel much different.<P>You both did something very wrong. He has to handle his own terrible situation with you. He has a lot of learning and growing to do in handling his marriage. I’ve always believed that we have trials thrown at us by who ever we feel is our higher power, these trials are meant to teach us some cosmic truth. Then we use our free will to decide how we will handle the trial. Your MM has some very big lessons to learn about being an H and a father before he can move on. (In my humble opinion of course.) Perhaps, down the road, when he has learned what there is to learn for him, when he has done the right thing by his wife and children, when you and he are different people, you can make a life together. <P> Many people here feel that you do not understand that your affair was wrong and that you continually justify it. That is what people are trying to get through to you here.<P>I believe very much in redemption and forgiveness. How else could I ever have taken my new husband back? And I believe in it for you and for your MM.<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zorweb:<BR><B>Her:<P>As more of your story unfolds here... things become clearer.<P>I for one applaud you for letting him go. You are basically Plan B'ing him. I now that was hard, very hard. But it is the right thing to do.<P>Many people here feel that you do not understand that your affair was wrong and that you continually justify it. That is what people are trying to get through to you here.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>I'll buy that. That's what I meant by "You're right about the morals. I never, never, never would have dreamed I'd be in this situation. If I had it to do over I wouldn't be."<P>If you had asked me six months ago I would have told you that I would never, never do a thing like this. When I first started being friends with the MM he was part of a mass mailing list that I put people on and send them jokes and poetry. I am often scolded by close friends because the mass list is so impersonal, and although they get something from me almost every day, rarely is it just for them from me. I only mention that so that you can see that our original contact really was innocent. I used to send him poetry about marital love and odes to wives, in fact, to get him to consider her feelings more and to remember why he married her.<P>Something changed and got out of control and I knew better and felt ashamed and wish still that I had never done it. That was the whole point of starting this thread in the first place, to let you know that sometimes we really, honestly believe (at first, and it's probably a mistake) that we're not causing him to make the decision. We think, and he leads us to believe, that it's over. You may feel that we're all usurpers, but we take what is offered, and sometimes we put out of our minds all that it means and what he still has to do because we love him so much. We don't mean to hurt you. We hate what's going on and hate ourselves for being so weak that we participate.<P>Yes, sometimes it's not the other woman's fault that the marriage has failed. Sometimes it is. It's just that we're human, too, and not necessarily cut from a different cloth than you.<BR><P>------------------<BR>There's more than one side to every story...

Her:<P>I can buy what you are saying. There is a seductiveness to the entire situtation. However, giving into the seductiveness is where the problems begin. <P>I wonder now if the reason you are here is to look for validation that you are not a bad person. That your intentions were not really evil. That you were suduced into the situation. I am sure this is all correct. The proof of this will be what you do from here on out. Take this experience as one of lives big lessons. Learn from it what you must. Forgive yourself and move on. That is the best any of us can do. Redemption is available to all of us. It is very strong blessing. <P>There have been three other OW on this site recently. You might find their postings and responses to them interesting. If you search on their names you will see more of how the people here feel about the OP. <P>Humblefish and tooweak are trying stop contact with their MM. They are getting support from the people on this forum. JustALurker has been in a relationship for 9 years with a married man and seems to feel that she is entitled. <P><BR>I am sure you know that this web site is not a place where one will find a lot of sympathy for the OP. As you know I have expressed my ill feelings toward the other women in my husbands' lives. I still stand by what I said.<P>In the stories I have read on this site, it seems that at the very least the OP has caused the BS very deep hurt. In the worse cases the OP has directly attacked the BS. So it is very hard for us to feel very sympathetic towards the OP. <P>But I understand what you are saying too. Now you have done the right thing now and that is what counts. We all do things in our lives that we are not proud of. So in the end, as angry as we all get at the OP, we all live in glass houses.<P>Z<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare