But (again my but) how to meet his needs when we do not see each other, when I have no opportunity to show him anything at all. When he claims he can't live with me ever again , when he says kids are not important, when he say no past is relevant "I go forward only, the future is only important and I can't predict it", when her past is not important to him, when she and he have no obligations about house kids life-they (he) pay a lot of persons to take care about everyday's life things, when he considers normal that HIS MOTHER does the gardening, ironing his shirts while she is walking arround the city not having job, kids... and everyone in this family supports them in such way of living, when I have old parents to care about all by myself noone to help me, when J does not want to understand my pain, when she didn't even phone on Wed or yesterday to ask me how am I , when she calls me only when she needs something...<P>how to meet his needs now? What needs can be met now on distance??<P>Now he is officially free, free to do everything he wants and that IS to live with her no matter (maybe it is opposite: the reason why he does that) that this life is completely different than ours was. <P>I can't see any way to come closer to him and to meet his needs, again what needs?<P>-----to comply with what you need to do...-----What, What , What to do now?????????????????????????????????????<P>Only to live alone with M (like I am doing last year (July 13th-remember?) with the picture of future loneliness till death.<P>BTW on what Dept you work<P>Good luck<BR>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by betrayed and desperate:<BR><B>But (again my but) how to meet his needs when we do not see each other...</B>[quote] <P>Please read carefully, D. I said Recovery is about <B>three</B> things. Meeting Mio's needs was only one of those things I mentioned!<P>If you're not seeing Mio and are at a distance (you've been telling me this all along but still found contact with him enough to lovebust your way into lots of trouble!) then you have all the time to world to work on yourself and changes to make for the better instead of dealing with Mio's needs at the moment--you're attitude being the first thing you need to work on. Get better counseling! <P>Please! In the past year that we've been talking I've told you exactly what you should be doing and working on. I will not repeat a year's worth of words here again. <P>You are a very intelligent and bright woman, D. Figure it out. I will not "baby" you. I will no longer spoon feed you on what you need to do. <P>You are a doctor--with the capacity for finding the right solutions. Use that brain God gifted you with.<P>Try to remember or re-read everything we've ever discussed. Read everything about Surviving an Affair, Plan A/Plan B, everything people are saying here in the forums. <P>I work in the OB/GYN department. Ironic, isn't it?<P>D, sometimes I think I do you a disservice by not telling you that a personal relationship with God would help you immensely with your troubled life. He gives you strength when you have none left. But you have to have a personal relationship with Him first. I would seek spiritual counseling if I were you..<P>Aloha,<P>L<P>

than:<BR>1. meet his needs - impossible for now on<P>2. change behaviour patterns - I always think I am doing that and fail again, even if I succeed he can't see that for now on<P>3. build self esteem - how? That's the main problem, when you are sistematically during 20 yrs told that HE is everything, HE made everything (even my parents), that you are only a trailor, how to get out of that??<P>You understand me well, I know, All the titles I made I made with his help, I really felt like zero without him<BR>It si hard to chnge mind.<BR>Especially when everyone is considered HE DID RIGHT thing to kick me out of his life.<P><BR>---I will no longer spoon feed you on what you need to do.----but you know me you know I need exact that ( and even thAT IS NOT SURE TO BE WELL REPRODUCED BY ME) <P>--- Ironic, isn't it?---wow! tHAT MUST BE HARD<P> Sorry but I am an atheist so that is not possible , t least for now.<BR>When are you going to next attempt?<P><BR>what do you think about my this night's SMS : We both love you foreverYou are our best dad and H Think about what future you want Of course no answer.<P>No, I'll promise I ll not more be clingy so I'll turn off the cell phone and will not contact him at all.<BR>Maja is on the beach with him just now and I was lonely so I sent it.<P>I know, I know-no more messages like that<P>

Yeah, too clingy. But just by you <B>realizing</B> that it <I>is</I> clingy is progress for you!<P>The Plan A thing to do would have been to just say I love you forever. Period. No need to tell him what to do or think. That is being demanding. Just telling him that you love him is not <B>demanding</B> anything in return. It's just loving him. Placing demands on him is what turns him off.<P>Change your behavior <B>for yourself</B>. I don't care if you don't see Mio. The change is for YOU! How, get a new counselor--and get on some better antidepressants. Stop making me repeat myself! There are actually antidepressants that make you stop acting hysterically and badly--which is what you needed when dealing with Mio and your children...I only wish you had listened to me when I told you to do this months ago.<P>I don't know when we're going to try again. Maybe not.<P>I know you're an athiest. Just thought I'd tell you what I know to be true for myself. Without God, you're all alone.<P>But, hey, didn't you blame God for all your misery? Seems you can't blame someone you don't believe exists! <P>

hello,<BR>1. Jelena succeded on the exam for Faculty of Economy!!!!!!!!!! She is going to study!!!!!<P>2. He dropped yesterday evening to do some work in the basement. You wouldn't believe that: HE SHAVED A BEARD!!!!<BR>That's not the best: when I saw him I started to lough (not on purpose)-The only once when he was shaved was summer 1979!! 22 years long ago, even in the army he had mustaches. But the most important thing is that he looks awful-he completely lost his upper lip (partly looks like our fomer President if you saw him in the paper), to me he looks disgusting, , he had "two days beard" looked like a homeless man and something in his face seemed so cruel that I wa afraid. I told him to start immediately with new beard, but the most important is he is going to pick S today and I'd like to see her face!!!!!!!!!.<BR>Her reaction + friend's sentence that he is jellous for what she was doing these 20 days???????????<BR>One (now dead) proffessor of mine told me long ago that men wearing beard hide something, maybe it's truth. "" years I didn't see HIM in fact. How he looks like now i wouldn't like to kiss me ,he is frightening me.<BR>He repeated that S is not pregnant but I don't believe him<BR>I still love him and want him: but now I can see he is not the same man, cause of beard, cause of something else, it's not important, I love old him.<BR>Now I made a decision:<BR>I'll not call him , untill he calls me, I'll leave them to enjoy the life (maybe she'll push him to marry her)<BR>I'll call J even at home, I'll not escape from that like now.<BR>Must go to the meeting<BR>Write tomorrow again<BR>D<P> <BR><p>[This message has been edited by betrayed and desperate (edited July 17, 2001).]

Please did you give up from me?<P>A little update:<P>My mother has been removed the imobilisaton and now I have to think how to realize some physical rechabilitation without payment what is difficult.<BR>Maja is quite well, she hates her father shaved, she thinks he is disgusting.<BR>Jelena finally phoned , she passed the exam so she is going to stydy economy (i am not sure if it is proper word in english but you understand?!) . One day she was mad at me cause I found some friends (and her father also) on the Faculty to be sure she'll succeed (some connections)-we did taht cause she was not A in sec school but B and here almost nothing is going on without help of the friends, unfortunately.<BR> She said that I think she is stupid she couldn't pass the exam but that she did it all by herself_- I agree she in fact did it but both him and me wanted to be sure she'll be accepted to faculty (you probably can't understand the way of thinking here)<BR>The other day she phoned me and was just opposite, finally I understood that she had a quarrel with her boyfriend the day before we were talking a whole hour and she was calm.<P>J and me were good for only one day. At Sat we went to a hair dresser, all three of us. M was like a devil, she was so wild till I let her two red RED parts of hair_ she is 11 can you imagine, 11!! Then she made me buy a lipstick (I didnt see a price) what was very expencive and when I was against that, J turned and in the middle of the store house was very vulgar to me (I can't say it in english), so we were jelling at each other and went to our different homes (the agreement was to have dinner with me).<BR>On Sun Mio and J came , pick M and went to island Rab for few days. I stayed all alone and i was crying the whole day and eating-I got 10 pounds in two weeks i am going to be as fat as i was and that would be awful.<BR>I spyed and found that S was absent till evening but during the night was in my house , his house-alone or not i don't know. Oh, how I want to go there , I still have keys , and to beat her to cut her eyes to ruin my wedding bed to make awful things to her and him even if i would be arrested cause i am no more his wife.<BR>I am jellous, I am lonely , the weather is hot and stuffy (a lot of water in the air) and i feel wild.<BR>Everyone, i mean my kids, want from me only money and I can't compete with him about money-he is always the winner.<BR>I'll go crazy these days.<BR>I miss him, i'd like to be with him and kids-where has my family gone? Is it forever? What have I done to deserve that?<BR>And that Wh... is in MY house acting like she was borne there, doing NOTHING to deserve it except sexing all the time.<BR>I have friends some single, mostly married (well or not I don't know) but it seems to me that noone can understand my feelings. Sometime even me can't understand myself.<BR>I want good relationship with girls but everything I say causes only quarrel I want from M to make her father think about coming back and I am aware she is a child, what can she do? I accuse girls they don't want him back, they only love Susan . I realy hate her being in my house enjojing there maybe even have lovers there, getting a lot of money from him and knowing if I was not his wife there wouldnot be any money. He knows that, S knows that, in laws know that, girls know that., and noone cares. They all love S and noone even asks for or about me, like i never existed in the earth.<BR>That makes me so small and worthless.<BR>I haven't wrote an article for two years so when my reelection comes i can be fired (in 2004). My colleagues think I am crazy for suffering so long for a man-they don't know how good H and father he is.<BR>Are you familiar with books of Glasser: The theory of control, The theory of choice.... I found myself in it.<BR>How can dr Harley even slightly think he would ever see me like a a woman he wants to spend a rest of his life with , when he tried and has the better life with S.<BR>He saved only 4 days to be with kids and with her he goes once a month now on sort of vaccation (he never did that with me_no time , no money..no wish)<BR>I think it's written for me to have an average life most of the time, to taste a good life and then to suffer for past times till the end of this disgusting life.<BR>I am not made to be alone, mostly I was afraid of that and now.... no one of inlaws contacted me or Maja last few months (only when he takes M with him to see her grandmother, but she didn't at least phoned, nor SIL, nor anyone-can you imagine?<BR>I hate him for what he did, but even now I want him back. Am I schyzophrenic?????<BR>During last two years he never MENTIONED A SLIGHT possibility of coming back, what make anyone think he would?????<P>You have understood from the context (upper text I wrote yesterday to Harley) that I am lonely these days, but (this time useful but) I infact didn't have time to cry for him (except Sun) cause I had to deal with mother's health problems, my job, my friend's problems (she has 19 aers son who was taking ecstasy and now is on antypsychotic drugs) so I was wuite busy.<BR>I have to say I miss him but I see I can go forward without him, I am jellous bu am not crying all the time - a little step forward (do you agree), only I have to stop eating.<BR>He promissed me to pay a vaccation (climbing in SLO mountains next week)for Maja and me and I hope he''l do that, so the two of us will have one nice week.<BR>Even J promissed to be with us when we come back.<BR>We'll see.<BR>Hope you are planning a new attempt. Do not you give up!!!<BR>When are you going on vaccation? Do you go anywhere?<BR>You know we here are thinking that when you live in such beautiful place like Hawaii you are on vaccation all the time (surely not truth), so where do you go, if so?<BR>Have a nice time <BR>Please write<BR>D<P>PS Here the temperature is probably near yours. 34 deg Cels and very high humidfity. Impossible!<P><BR>

Like you, I am bogged down with the problems of friends, work and activities. I think I am going thru a little bit of a depression because of the failed in vitro attempt and all the problems I keep trying to help people with. Wish I could take anti-depressants again but don't dare due to possible pregnancy in the near future...<P>Posting is getting more and more difficult for me.<P>Vacation? What vacation?!<P>I'm beginning to think I should take a little vacation from the forum...at least till I get my strength back...<P>Aloha,<P>L<P>

Dear friend <BR>please do not give up from me,<BR>have a rest bu do not give up for me please.<BR>Do not take any medications if you plan new attempt.<BR>I have a friend who succeeded in her , am not sure 5th or 6th attempt.<BR>You are so young , yo'll have a baby I am sure. If someone deserves that it's YOU.<BR>Wish you a lot of luck.<BR>Let me know how are you from time to time<BR>love<BR>D<P><BR>

Feeling strong enough now to hear the answer to this, D...<P>How are you doing, Hon?

Dear L,<BR>I am so glad you are still my friend (Ihope)<BR>I was with Maja in Slo mountain climbing it would be nice if....he was with us and Jelena.<BR>Our daughters used to go with that proffessor last 10 years and we usually came to visit them and stayed for the weekend, this time he didn't come , in fact he was near but with S and new friends climbing on other mountain.<BR>For the first time in my whole life there was noone to wait for us to prepare us dinner, whenn we returned there was neither bread in the house nor anything in the frige (when he returnes from trips with S my MIL comes to clean them house and prepare them dinner-that never did when WE were married and didn't call us to see if her grand daughter has something to eat when we returned-you know that hurts so much. S is likle a princess and I was always like Cinderella who could do everything alone), J was not there, in fact she is mad at me when I changed a password on house PC when I found out that S is using internet with MY password what I got from house using, cause we have an opportunity for cheaper price like Faculty staff, I can one private PC to connect with this special offer and that I used for kids and when I found out that b**** is using it I changed password so J is angry. I hope you understand that I don't want her to surf under my name, I signed the rules of using it and I am responsible for honesty I am not sure if she would do something evil and then i can be accused for that,<BR>One more reson for crying was Tuesd before we went. He promissed me to pay for this trip, about 200$, for me a lot of money, he did that on Friday before, but then suddenly he called me on th ephone and was very cruel and vulgar and said he had never said that , do not f*** him, he did not want to talk , I had a lot of money........he was yelling like a mad man. I started to cry, I explained him I never asked him for that but he himself said: I would like you to go with Maja to have a little rest- he denied he said that. Maja heard his words and commented that he is mad he promissed me and was very sad.<BR>So the whole beauty disappeared and I was crying there a lot.Why does he act like that?<BR>Harley wrote:>Susan will eventually do to him what she has done to you -- get what she<BR>>wants regardless of how it affects others.<BR>><BR>Is that an answer. Probably she forbid him to help me. But you know she GOT everything she wanted, house, car, housemades, money, no job, and the most important HIM who dances how she plays.<BR>She realy does not care how it affect others, but it satisfies him, he has no objections-so one more sign he would never come back.<BR>You know in Slo among kids was one who cried for his mom and then she said: So what: I miss my dad, we were a week together . For the first time she admitt she misses him. And for the first time he called her every day (he didn't do that never not first days last year.<BR>But I realized it doesn't mean anything.<BR>Today we met cause he payd dish machine for me (last years promise) but he says he has no money and doesn't mention a word orf paying vacation. And he is aware I wouldn't ask him I am too proud andf from all that pride now I haven't money enough to have a standard like before.<BR>But today I again realized I love him I want us together, how can't he realize that we have boudaries still that S is no good wife, I am not sure if she is pregnant but I assume she'll be -she wants to keep him tied.<BR>L I am sure she can't love him like me, why doesn't he see that, why will he marry her and stay away from me.<BR>I only want him back even if I am not sure if it would be good if we could pass over these years with her.<BR>I think if he marries her I'll hang myself I couldn't survive that.<BR>L, on Oct 31st it would be 1 year he lives with her, but over 2 years that they are together-when will I realize that even Harley's borders are gone. He said to wait for two yers, I did, nothing happened so I am the looser and I can't accept that.<BR>When he bought me that dish maschine he insisted to meet me (it was not necessary) we spent few nice hours together, he was compleining on business (no money!!!! and J told me they are going to Netherlands next week for a week-never with me such trips, only shopping in Italy) on J (she doesn't listen to him every night is out...) I look pretty (have not to loose weight more), he'll connect this machine on Sat when he returnes Maja, but on Sat when he came he yelled he never sayed that, he can't do that it's too hot.......J told me they are thinking about kids and she is goung to be the first to tell .If she becomes pregbnant I>'ll kill me, I can't live without him, every day is harder not easier.<BR>Do you see any chances for us in your papers, please be honest,<BR>Now I wait for hi to call me when he wants , I do not make any lousy comment to his yelling or complaining or anything i pretend quite good, but I am, sure he knows I wait and will wait for him.<BR>Please look once more in your papers and tell me exact truth. Maybe when I become aware nothing is possible maybe I'll get ot or... everything is better then this situation<P>Thank you, and believe in new attempt it's worth of trying<BR>God bless<BR>D<BR>How to understand him? One day like my old Mio and the other just opposite <P>

D,<P>I have given you everything I've got, and then some. There is no more to tell.<P>I still don't see any strength in you to continue Plan A. Your crying to him, refusing to don a positive attitude, it just isn't going to work until you start making positive changes for yourself.<P>If Mio seems unhappy, angry, going back on promises--something is not right. It probably has to do with S and how she is treating him. That is good. Let her lovebusting continue.<P>There is a point where you have to stop thinking of astrology or magic to help you. There is a point where you have to stop wishing for the way things use to be, stop complaining about the way things are now, and start doing the things you must do to exact a change.<P>There is a point where you just have to work on improving yourself and your situation and stop acting like a victim, D.<P>

Please do not give up on me!<BR>Believe me I AM trying I AM a bit better when I am with him but when I am alone then I become weak again.<BR>This week J is with us cause he went for 15 days in the Netherlands with S, MIL is not here also so J came to be with me, but we see each other few minutes a day cause she is working in his company (only this month) and the whole afternoon is sleeping and at the evening is with her boyfriend.<BR>You know the days are passing quite fine but the nights are hard, 1.5 years of being alone, noone to talk with or walk with or simply to be with at nights, you can't imagine.<BR>I'll wait for him the rest of my life, he knows that, maybe you are right , maybe there IS something wrong while he reacts in those differet ways.<BR>I realy do not complain to him any more, I do not ask him for anything but when HE promisses something and then denies that after few hours---THAT hurts. He was NEVER like that, he is such a good man, husband and father, Maja and me are missing him so much.<BR>I am going back to work on Mon. <BR>We'll see what will happen, I still have hope that love will win, has to win.<P>Are you going with a new attempt?<BR>What are you doing these hot days?<BR>How are you in every sense?<P>Love<BR>D<P>Do not be angry at me, I cann't stand that<P><BR>

betrayed and desperate - I wanted to jump in and offer my .02. <BR> I so understand how you feel; I share many of those feelings. I loved bieng married ( still am, but separated), bieng a dad, husband,etc. I thought I was the luckiest man on the planet to be with my wife.<P> So here we are. What can we do? In my search to understand I've read and read,posted here and lurked often, have started individual therapy ( on my 2nd therapist) and counselled w Steve Harley. What I see at this point is this..<BR> 1) The answer lies IN YOU. When relationships reach a polarized position, the solution lies in better defining who you are! Focus on you, not the relationship or what he's doing. The key to your fullfillment is in understanding and developing who you are. Very difficult when we are focused on what we have lost.<P> 2). Develop support. Church, your family, friends, councelling, etc. I couldn't navigate this minefield without help, I suspect most people are the same way.<P> 3). Create distance between you and XH. This will help make you less reactive to him, will make it easier to understand who you are, and will help him discover what he's lost. It also breaks the pursuer/ distancer cycle.<P> 4). YOU ARE WORTH MUCH BETTER. Better than the way you are treating yourself, better than the way you've been treated. <P> I've also found prayer and church to be invaluable. I would highly recommend it.<P> Sorry to break in on the thread, I just wanted to share some thoughts that have helped me in my journey.<P> Dan<BR>

Dear Dan,<BR>thank you for jumping here, I (we) need all the possible help in the World. Sorry for not answering earlier but was at vacation and have PC only at the office.<BR>I can see you understand (do not know your story) and I appreciate your help. I am aware of almost everything you wrote but reading the whole thread you probably understood that I am so much in love with my XH (it's so painful to write XH, it's only 45 days we are divorced after 19 yr of marriage+3yr dating).<P>--------1) Focus on you, not the relationship or what he's doing. The key to your fullfillment is in understanding and developing who you are. Very difficult when we are focused on what we have lost.<P>That is exactly what I am wrong the whole 2 years: I am focusing on them, I've lost myself completely, I am living for his kind word and dreaming he will come and tell me: Let's go home, all this was a nightmare" in spite of the fact that not a little sign is showing it may happen.<P> ------2). Develop support. <P>i have friends but they are mostly family people so I can't be fifth wheel all the time and I became boring. You know people are divorcing every day and make no problems of that, it seems that only me want my XH back, almost everybody think that I should not do (even think) that, if he sometime tries, but I simply can't imagine another man in my life and most of everything this lonely life till death. Maybe crazy for 21st century but I think one can be in love with only one person in life.<P> ------3). Create distance between you and XH. <P>That's exacly whjat I do not know right way to do. How to do that with 2 kids especially one (OD) living with them?<BR>How to do that when I financially depend on his support (I've got an appartment, and a slight alimony for YD but the company and everything else I left him and signed on court believing he'd come back and I can't correct that fact, unfortunately our law is different than in US)<BR>I can't say I can't live without his help but he stayed very, very rich (even for US criteria) and I hardly live with one sallary). OW even stopped working and has several housemades for everything I did all alone + work+kids (she has no kids and OD is 19- nothing much to care about except money and food)<BR>I know I seem jellous and I AM jellous, like I said we started from nothing, zero, and made everything together not enjoying but now he is enjoying with her and correcting mistakes what made with me (according his own words) not giving us a chance.<P>------- 4). YOU ARE WORTH MUCH BETTER. Better than the way you are treating yourself, better than the way you've been treated.<P>Maybe, but I know him (better: knew him) he is the most wonderful H and father and lover and ..... I can't imagine he'd changed so much, I can't imagine he'd never see what he has done, what WE had together and what we CAN HAVE AGAIN together. Maybe if he marries her I'll become aware that is the end. Till then I live with a hope he'll be back some day, I know i'll wait for him. I know it's maybe stupid but I thing that way, I love him so much that it hurts and it's so painful that I can only look from aside how happy he is, enjoying the life what stopped for me 1.5 years ago, how YD (11) is sad and how she is thinking about men and how I can't find the proper way to communicate with OD cause she lives with them and has changed a lot.<P> Unfortunately I am not religious so I can't find help within the church.<P>Hope your separation will not finish with divorce, just opposite with better marriage.<BR>I am not familiar with your story but if you want to share something I'll try to help.<P>If you want and find the time, I'll be happy if you write again, only one who passed through this nightmare can really understand the pain and problems and thoughts what come and stay or go.<P>Thanks <BR>D<P>

Dan, thank you--step in at anytime!<P>D, no, not angry--just incredibly weary. I have to pace myself with you--your continual listing of the negative in your life is very draining to me.<P> My own positive outlook is hard won. It's something I struggle to maintain everyday. I have to be honest here, I tend to lose a bit of respect for people that don't even try to strengthen and empower themselves. But as you say, I never had to walk in exactly the same shoes you are wearing--just the same brand (Betrayed Spouse). <P>

<BR>L,<BR>I try, I hardly try to be strong and to respect myself, but as you know I was systematically told that he is succesful, rich, smart.....and that I am in every field less worth, so it's hard to change thoughts.<BR>I have days when I am sure that I can live without him, and I really do but at night , especially when I am all alone, when both girls are with him, I fall down again.<BR>I have to admitt I strongly believe that he'll see my love and will be back again one day, but it's hard to wait.<P>There are some improvements, i know it's necessary to make much more of them, I hope I am going to make them maybe slower then the others but I will believe me.<P>You know he phoned me the next day he came from Netherlands, he had no real reason ("can M come to me" a question what he never asked before, he always made a deal with her and I never stop that) and we chated few minutes-it was nice and at the end I spoiled with: would you marry her, are youu happy, he said: no oone relationship is ideal, I'll not do that this year, and I can not predivt the future. It seems to me that he is no more delighted how he was but love is still there.<BR>BUT I am sure the real, deep love , mine and M's will win, has to win. We had a lot of nice years and a lot of things to talk about and S has nothing, except sex and some fun maybe- that kind of life can not go on forever.<BR>I made aprovements with my outlook, with some parts of behaviour and I'll make more.<BR>Please be with me and help me like you did the whole time.<BR>Love<BR>D