First the situation.<p>W is 30
OM is 50+
I have been a serial infidel, and a neglectfull husband.<p>W has been living with OM for 5 weeks. Claims to have had sex twice and realized it was a mistake for both.<p>I believe OM is the father figure that W never had.<p>Tonight I managed to talk her into giving me 3 months to prove that we can work it out, and that I can make her happy. I believe that she will give it an honest try. Best I can figure I'm starting Plan A.<p>I have no time commitment from her. I'd like the 15 hours a week, but I'll take what I can get.<p>I think she will fill out the ENQ so that I know what needs to fill, but I could use whatever advice I can get. I have a lot of catching up to do.<p>I also wonder what my chances for success are given the situation.<p>Thanks
Rev

rev,
Is your wife willing to stop all contact w/ OM while you are doing this ?. Actually if she is willingly to stop A and work on M, there is no use of plan A/B. You just need to learn how to repect your lady & start working on EN. Could you could remember what is she complaining about you ?, no affections, negelect ? ... you get the picture. You could pretty much guess what is LB for her. Those are the basis for you to win her heart , show her your best as a changed man. You have to earn her trust too. About EN, it is good that she is filling it out. Also get HNHN book and also get SAA if she is willing to stop A, read it & do it together.<p>If she is still with OM , try to invite her back home and no expectation or demand then use plan A.<p>Is A open in the day light ?. Known to friend & family ? How do they take it ?.<p>If you could afford it, get MC that understand & practice MB.<p>While there is no gurantee on your success, if you do it right you have a lot in your favor ... 20 years diff ... and also she once fell in love w/ you right ? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Good luck and keep posting ... we need your experience that some one might need it later.

Answers:
Is your wife willing to stop all contact w/ OM while you are doing this?<p>No, but I am trying to understand. Again I think it's the father figure thing.<p>If she is still with OM , try to invite her back home and no expectation or demand then use plan A.<p>She is still with OM, and I have told her on several occasions that all she needs to do to be welcomed back is move. No expectations, no demands, no questions, and just for the record but not mentioned to her (I've been reading) no appology.<p>Is A open in the day light ?. Known to friend & family ? How do they take it ?.<p>Her family, her employer and coworkers and, her friends (mostly OM's friends) know and are very supportive of her. Her mother has been through 5 marriages, Her boss is currently involved with 2 men who both believe they are exclusive, and her/OM's friends I can't vouch for. I've run into a few whil I was with her and they tend to ignore me.<p>Current Events/Diary:<p>I spent about 4 hours with her today shopping for the kids christmas. We talked alot. I tried to understand her viewpoints and her needs. I was a little clingy. Enough so as to make us both a little uncomfortable, but I explained to her that she gets all the hugs and kisses she needs and is told she is loved often, and that I am missing that. She understood and seemed willing to work with me on that.<p>She is trying to free herself of codependance. This was a little disconcerting but she was open minded enough to agree that if she is mad at me, I did somthing to cause it and that the inverse is also true, and that caring about and looking out for each others feelings may be a good thing.<p>All in all it was a pleasant morning. I think I may have even made a couple deposites. I carry a Palm Pilot in a planner. Inside that planner after breakfast thismorning (we both had to go back to the counter separetly) I found a note that said "Thank you! I do care about you still! Love *****"<p>RedHat, I gota ask about the name. You a sysop?<p>Thanks
rev

I was so excited about the days events that I forgot some things.<p>Sombody let me know if I'm doing somthing to screw this up. Thats why I put the Current Events/Diary section there. It's silly to ask for and/or take advice if you don't put it to good use, or if you use it wrong.<p>Other Notes:<p>I've been reading as much as I have time to read on the MB site since I found it 2 weeks ago. I wish I'd found it 12 years ago. I can't afford the books right now, but I think there is enough of the site to keep me busy untill I can.<p>Thanks
Rev<p>[ November 23, 2001: Message edited by: rev ]</p>

rev,
To answer your question first ... no I am not a sysop I am an infrastructure architect, whatever it means, I have good knowledge of many platforms and application servers. Yes, the name I picked it up from Linux's maestro.<p>You are doing good by not pushing her, just take it one day at the time and also never mention A or OM or "our relations" unless WW brings it up. Keep educating yourself on MB ... you could get the copy of HNHN & SAA in the local library, you do not have to buy it. Most of the info is in this web site.<p>This is a free forum, if it is suit you well putting current/daily event or what we call it "update", feel free. I am glad she is reaching out for you too. Just be patience, time is on your side. Read up on negotiation tips, change the subject when it is getting uncomfortable for either one of you.<p>I got Q for you. It seems that WW got advice from everyone and now supports from everyone. Be that they are very dysfunctional freinds / family, what did you do wrong ?. What is your plan to show her that you are working on your issues and you are capable of change ? Use your palm to list the track your progress. Did she fill out ENQ ? also ask her to fill in LBQ. However you could judge/tune it by trials and errors ... remember she might not knwo what she wants. You best bet is try to rememeber what she said or told you when she was mad or emotional.<p>You are doing good.<p>[ November 23, 2001: Message edited by: redhat ]</p>

Answers:<p>what did you do wrong ?
As I stated before I have been a serial infidel and neglectfull. Untill I found this site I had no clue about EN and I spent way too many hours working. I am also a Network Engineer/Manager on call 24/7 and wasn't willing to put her first.<p>What is your plan to show her that you are working on your issues and you are capable of change ?
I have been seeing a councelor and going to meetings to work on my problems. I am no longer working past 5:00 unles there is an outage. I have been trying to meet her EN better. Still trying to get the ENQ. I could go on about what I've learned here, but I believe you are familiar with the plan. Also see Current.<p>Current Events/Diary:<p>She called and asked me to have lunch with her. That went well. Again listening to her and trying not to be overly affectionate. She isn't quite comfortable with that.<p>Tonight I went to the stores that we shopped at this morning and picked up a couple things that she seemed intrested in, brought them home, wrapped them, and put them in her car with a note expressing how much spending time with her meant today. she will get them when she gets off work tonight. She is a barmaid so she gets off late. I only mention this as I have never been the type to go out of my way like this and I realy enjoyed it.<p>Questions:<p>I know that my EN hav'nt been met much better than hers, I also know that H are being met now by OM, and I know that she is uncomfortable, as am I, when I am overly affectionate or clingy, and that no one can fill there own EN. How are my EN met through this? I know it sounds selfish, but if I am to go down this road for many months, I don't want them to get in the way. I don't want to get too pushy about getting my EN met, but don't they need met just the same?<p>Confused about that.<p>Thanks,
Rev

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by rev:
<strong>Questions:<p>I know that my EN hav'nt been met much better than hers, I also know that H are being met now by OM, and I know that she is uncomfortable, as am I, when I am overly affectionate or clingy, and that no one can fill there own EN. How are my EN met through this? I know it sounds selfish, but if I am to go down this road for many months, I don't want them to get in the way. I don't want to get too pushy about getting my EN met, but don't they need met just the same?<p>Confused about that.<p>Thanks,
Rev</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Rev,
Plan A is about you only you. You have to earn her trust back and show that you are working on change and you are capable of change. You are only fullfill her EN when she allows you to, stop when she resents it. About your EN ... tough luck ... you are not suppose to expect anything back !!!. Patience, patience and patience. She has to convince herself that you could be trusted. Buckle up, you will be here for many months until those changes become habits.<p>What do you mean by H ?.<p>[ November 24, 2001: Message edited by: redhat ]<p>[ November 24, 2001: Message edited by: redhat ]</p>

Answers:<p>H=her/WW Seemed correct for the context, sory about the confusion.<p>Thank you for straightening me out on my EN. I will "buckle in".<p>Current Events/Diary:<p>Looking forward to today.<p>Trying to harnes my Taker. He crept out in the middle of the night, but I managed not to act. Probably a good thing she was at OM's house. On the other hand if she'd been here he wouldn't have had anything to complain about.<p>Notes:<p>Letting her do her thing is the toughest part. I can deal with all the A crap (images of them togeather in my head). I just have a hard time being uninvolved in her life. It's difficult to realize that I'm not at the top of her list any more.<p>
Thanks
Rev

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>
Letting her do her thing is the toughest part. I can deal with all the A crap (images of them togeather in my head). I just have a hard time being uninvolved in her life. It's difficult to realize that I'm not at the top of her list any more.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yes it is hard, but remember that she wasn't on the top of your list until recently (with your infidelities) The trick is get you calendar fill up to the minutes and no idle time. You have to get busy, learn the new WINDOW XP/AIX 5.0 features or anything. My favorite is hitting the gymn. I could spend hours and help me in shape too. Also go to Barnes & Noble or Border, they allows you to read in there .. for a price of latte [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . Go to local church, there are a lot of volunteer needed there, you will not have time to idle. At the same time be patience and no expectation while you are doing plan A.<p>On the ealier post you say you have to go to buy Christmast for the kids. Any children involve in here ?. If there is, where are they ?.<p>If you have time please post you profile in the link below, detail that is relevant to your M.<p>I have to pick up my 2 D from the rink & fixing garage door ... I will check in latter tonight. I live in west coast, SF Bay. Meanwhile get busy and you are doing good.

I in a fairly good mood so watch out for the smiles. Also Current has taken a Diary feel today.<p>Answers:
Also go to Barnes & Noble or Border, they allows you to read in there .. for a price of latte.<p> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I live in a town of about 30,000 in the NE panhandle. 2 Hours from the closest of either in Cheyenne Wy. On that topic I went to 2 libraries today and couldn't find one book by Dr. Harley, let alone the ones you reccomended. You gota love the midwest. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
On the ealier post you say you have to go to buy Christmast for the kids. Any children involve in here ?. If there is, where are they ?.<p>We have 2 boys 5&7 togeather who spend most of their time with me. WW works as a barmaid, as I said, 4:00pm-1:00am Wed-Sat.<p>If you have time please post you profile in the link below, detail that is relevant to your M.<p>Done.<p>Current Events/Diary<p>Had lunch with WW. Found out that being around me isn't as bad as it once was. I guess that means that I may be making a few deposites. <p>Also the little stuffed moose and chocolate I wrapped with a note telling her how much I appreciateted the time we spent togeather yesterday went over very well. She is big on cards and things like that. Nothing to extravigant but enought to let her know I'm thinking about and apreciate her enough to go a little out of my way for her.<p>Notes:<p>RedHat,<p>Thanks for the patients, understanding, support, and the occasional straightening out.<p>Thanks
Rev<p>[ November 24, 2001: Message edited by: rev ]</p>

New discovery!<p>Things have been going well. Talked to W about how things were going. She stated that it was going well but she didn't want me to know that. She 1. doesn't think I deserve to know if things are getting better between us (due to my reputation with her), and 2. likes the changes and is afraid I'll stop.<p>I had a thought this morning that kind of smacked me upside the head. Is she just toying with me?<p> [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Thanks
Rev<p>[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: rev ]</p>

rev,<p>I went to Lincoln, NB last year and I could not find StarBucks there either. I might be there again this end of summer next year.<p>She is not toying around with you but turn the table for a moment ... if you were SO and been meglected in the past, are you going to jump in
right away ?. Do you trust this guy, the serial infidel ?. Aren't you suspicious of this guy motive ?, after only a few days ?. Recomended plan A is 6 months to give you time to make those changes to become habbit and give her time to see it. Get your plan A going full gears and address all the issues that she has with you. Do not let you mind stray around, you have something to prove regardless how W is. It takes a long time to gain someone's trust. Go to the hills get some wild flowers and give it along w/ your card to W. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

RedHat,<p>Please take it easy on me. I know that I'm about to be straightend out again. I can see it comming I just don't know what it is. I now I deserve, it I know I need it, I just don't want it to hurt too bad. <p>Tomarrow I go to Cheyenne to take 70-240: Mcrosoft® Windows® 2000 Accelerated Exam for MCPs Certified on Microsoft® Windows NT®. Your probably familiar with it. It's a four hour test.<p>Due to the 10:00 apointment for the test, the hour and a half drive in the sun, and the inclement weather I will be leaving around 7:00 am. My W will be going with me and She told me yesterday that she may stay with me tonight. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Based on this information I made arangements for the boys to stay with my parents tonight. I was really looking forward to spending time with her without any distractions.<p>I just got the goodnight call from the boys that I get when she has them. That means she will not be here tonight. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] (DEPRESSION STRIKES)<p>Now is where I get into trouble.<p>During the call, I told her that I miss her and I just wanted us to be a family again. Too which she replied "We will". I was a little taken aback. (OK, I was Floored)<p>Untill now I hadn't put any thought into what to do when this happend. She never said when so I'm getting way ahead of myself here, but it did make me stop and think. <p>Now hear I stand with my thumb in the air wondering what to do next. I don't want to foul this up. Part of me wants to go running back, the other part of me knows that there need to be many changes to make our marriage stronger than it was.<p>You said "plan A is 6 months to give you time to make those changes to become habbit". After that I expect you to say "Keep your head in the game kid, now's not the time to go gettin lazy or stupid", and "Quit crying to her about moving back in" and a whole host of other things I havn't thought of.<p>Where do I go from here.<p>Thanks
Rev<p>[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: rev ]<p>[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: rev ]</p>

You're getting great answers from Redhat. You still may be able to get the Harley books at the library through interlibrary loan, and you can also try Half.com to find the books at second-hand prices. In the meantime, you are doing well to read everything on the website. Also listen to the archived radio shows as well as the live show on Mondays.<p>I think that recreating your courtship behaviors will help and establishing anything new that will pleasantly surprise her, like the spontaneous gifts and notes. Let her set the pace as you would in a dating situation.<p>The main thing in a situation like yours is the long haul--she is looking for PERMANENT change in you, and that will only be apparent with time, so settle in for at least 6 months of total Giver with no expectations of anything in return. It has helped me to think of this time as practice and training to be a better person and great spouse, whether my H decides to take advantage of the opportunity or not.<p>The book, Light Her Fire by Ellen Kreidman, may give you some creative ideas for courtship and romance. Your W also may be looking for security and solid ground to stand on that the older OM provides--review whether that is an issue you need to address and demonstrate reliability and consistency in.<p>There are many of us on this path, so you are not alone.

Rev,
Stick with your plan A, no LB, no expectation of receiving anythingand it is not about fill her or your EN, only if she allows you to.<p>You are probably pushing it too fast, she probably pull a bit back. Be patience.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by rev:
<strong>
During the call, I told her that I miss her and I just wanted us to be a family again. Too which she replied "We will". I was a little taken aback. (OK, I was Floored)
</strong><hr></blockquote>
It is fine to show your affections nothing wrong with it but do not expect anything. Do not bring A or Relations at all unless she bring it up.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>[qb]... I don't want to foul this up. Part of me wants to go running back, the other part of me knows that there need to be many changes to make our marriage stronger than it was.
<hr></blockquote>[qb]
Yes, you are a bright guy, just need to refocus your energy to the right place. The changes start with you.<p>Get busy with your study tonight and good luck on your test ...

Rev,
You posted while I was writing my post. I'll just add that maintaining a courtship ritual is probably the best course. In courtship, we are not demanding or clingy. We are interested and interesting. We are respectful and positive with our best foot forward.<p>Just be a gentleman, a suitor, and show that you are the best choice she could possibly make. Welcome her into your life, and graciously accept whatever level she decides to take it to. Don't try to pull her towards you. Think of yourself as a magnet and attract her to you.<p>Recreate what attracted her to you originally with the added bonus that you realize you have hurt her and have learned from your mistakes and will correct those character flaws.<p>When you interact with her, keep that type of attitude in mind so that there is no pressure. Be inviting and pleasant so that conversation and time spent with you is something for her to look forward to and seek out, not something to dread or avoid. You know how you wooed her in the first place--take advantage of that knowledge.

Well here is the update and a little whine.<p>I took the test in Cheyanne. I Didn't pass. It's ok, I'm still NT4 certified, and quite frankly I have more important things going on in my life right now.<p>Went to Barns & Knoble and got HNHN. Started reading tonight. I'm on page 23.<p>Spent a prety fair day with the W. During the course of the day, she said some things that have me going right now.<p>She loves and misses me.
She isn't happy living with OM.
She doesn't feel safe in our house. (Still afraid she's being lied to. Afraid to get hurt again.)<p>Ok, I am 100%+ the reason she doesn't feel safe. I think I got a handle on that, and I'm ok with it for now. Regaining her trust is going to take some time, effort, and patients. I think this is where "You are probably pushing it too fast, she probably pull a bit back" fits in.<p>Here is the problem.<p>Even though I try to put on my "game face". Every time she walks out the door and goes back to him, a piece of me dies.<p>RedHat, <p>I know you said "buckle in, it's going to be a ride". And I know this is what you meant, but the Prozac ain't doin' that good a job. I'm on top of the world when she is around, and I crash when she leaves.<p>I know this is a familiar story, and I'm trying to keep it (my head/life) togeather. I just thought I'd let you in on the days events.<p>Thanks
Rev<p>[ November 28, 2001: Message edited by: rev ]</p>

RedHat, Conqueror,<p>I got to thinking about RedHat's question thismorning.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> "Is A open in the day light ?. Known to friend & family ? How do they take it ?." <hr></blockquote><p>I know that her mom knows she's loving with OM. She has called her at his place. I don't know if she knows about the sex/A. I believe that her mom only has the "how terrible I am" part.<p>Is this important, does her mom need to know, am I the one to tell her, or am I just grasping at straws<p>Thanks
Rev

rev,
It is too bad that you did not pass the test. I would of postpone the test until some stability on my mind. But you could re-take again.<p>Since your relation w/ your MIL is not that good and she knows already about her relation with OM. Let it to rest. Do not under estimate mother's instinct.<p>I know how you feel about crashing when WW leaves home ... I used to get a sudden rush and start LB'ing. I learn better. "If you love someone let them go if she comes back she is yours if not she is never yours to begin with". Withour LB let I let her know that her action hurts me but I will show her that I love her unconditionally. (WW felt I do not love her & unable to) I am waiting for her. This will avoid "reasons or excuses" to go to OM. Just cherish the moment that you have with her and knowing that she will be back again ... hopefully for more. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Keep posting ... It will help your sanity. Did you get wild flower along with nice cards ? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Show her affections, attentions and w/ few surprises. She is sitting on the fence checking you out.

Hey, Rev!<p>Lot's of M problems in the IT industry, isn't it?
I'm also IT Manager, before that also used to travel extensively, and leave her alone (BAAD)while a field Tech.<p>Just to let you know, my W's OM was 60+, she's 30+. (YUP!)
If she's realised that sex was a istake, you can bet that she won't any longer with OM. It's a matter of turning to someone, and getting carried away on romantic fantasy. She has transferred all her fantasies of you onto OM. If she has already realised this, then things are looking good for you. OM may even be giving her support and advice on restoring her marriage ( true!). He can't be ALL bad if she turned to him ( she chose YOU, remember)<p>The way you are behaving is excellent for now, and you are making good progress. Keep it up!
No pestering, or inquisitiveness about OM, or snooping for details, or ANY display of neediness, OK? The details are actually a lot more boring than you imagine, trust me. The sex between them was probably a joke or disaster, and you should not be preoccuppied with it. You essentially have her heart, and you must treasure that. It's YOU she wants, OK?<p>SHE IS TRYING TO TELL YOU EXACTLY WHAT SHE WANTS IN ORDER FOR HER TO COME BACK TO YOU!!!!!
LISTEN TO HER! This is a GOLDEN opportunity! Take It!<p>DO NOT tell her family / MOM about the A deal, PLEEEEZE! Do you want to lessen your guilt? Do you want to hurt her? Be a MAN and take your medicine, and show her some integrity. Stop the circle NOW. Besides, her Mom is grown up enough to draw her own conclusions, ans besides that, women share allkinds of stuff we guys steer away from, and she probably has already been told by your W. You'll come off EXACTLY like this: "I'm so sorry for myself". If you feel this way, it's natural, but rather come here to this forum for a quick vent, a bout of self-pity, whatever, and put on a GOOD FACE for her. This takes balls, but is well worth the result.<p>There's a simple rule.....when you feel sorry for yourself, no-one else does<p>Be brave, and you will gain the respect ( and pity) from those around you, (including your W's.)<p>Good on ya for the work so far!!!!!!!
C'Mon!!! Go for it!!
muzohead [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]