I moved out of the house 1 wk after D-day. WW was continuing to lie to me about seeing OM and instant messaging with him until all hours. I had only slept about 6 hrs in 4 days. I knew that if I stayed that I would ruin any chances of us trying to work things out. She told me from the beginning that she didn't want us to be together. I couldn't accept that and told her that I wasn't able to give up. The night that I confronted her about what I had found out about the A, I started off by telling her that I love her more than anything in the world and apologized for everything that I had done destructive in the relationship in the past. There has been a lot of LBing going on with both of us for years.

I didn't find this site until about 3-4 wks after D-day and then learned the concepts here and I have to do my best to follow this program. I have come to recognize a lot of what she has said to me as part of her that is in the "fog". After reading and posting and reading and getting some feedback here for the past week. I was advised to move back into the house. (More of my story can be found on the "Just found out" forum) It was met with absolute rejection and acutally threats of going through with seeing an attorney and getting D started. Things had actually not gone all that bad up until that point. I was invited along with her and our boys a number of times when the logical thing on her part if she really wanted me out of her life would have been to just not invite me. I feel like I am all the way back at square one right now. I am not considering moving back in at this point because it will do absolutely nothing to mend our relationship. It can only do harm at this point. That may not be the correct move according to this site, but it is what I think has to happen at this time based on what I know of my wife.

My question is, does anyone have any ideas as to how to meet WS's EN while I'm not actually living at the house? And should I give her a few days or so to cool off from the other day before I start back down the Plan A avenue?

I've read some conflicting ideas as to how long to approach Plan A until resorting to Plan B. The A just began about 6 wks ago and as much as I would like it to be over she has told me that she will not lose him as a friend due to us. (Part of the fog?) Is there anyone out there who has counseled with the Harley's to get a better grip on the Plan A / Plan B approach? I would love to do this myself but at this point I really cannot put together $165 for a phone session. I am waiting for my copy of "Surviving an Affair" and maybe once I get it I will be able to apply it better to my situation after getting it straight from the horses mouth.

One more thing, it there a forum here with couples that have made it successfully through this. At this point I'm having some difficulty reading some of the posts from this area since there seems to be so much pain here, and it makes it harder to keep a positive outlook.

Thank you and God Bless.

Hang in there! I am in much the same situation as you in that I am plan Aing from a distance. Like you I decided that councelling with the Harleys would have been to expensive but I now regret that decision. My H wouldn't admit to an affair with his "friend"& things in our household & hers became so bad that both couples ended up seperating just a few months ago... Well guess what now I am sure that there is a fully fledged affair going on right under my nose her H & everyone in this village & i would guess that even if it was just a friendship b4 that they have now decided that well if everyone thinks we r doing it then we may as well be.

Anyway when my H & I seperated I went to plan B & left BUT! I decided to have counselling with Steve & he put me right back into plan A which I now have to do from a distance as we had businesses together so lawyers had to be involved & things got pretty nasty for a while now H wants nothing 2 do with me, even went so far as stating in the division of property that we would not interfere in each others lives~!!!!

So now I have to start right from the bottom & try & become friends with my H again which is hard. Plan A is all about you showing your spouse change..You may have got into a rut in your marriage...The worst thing you can do if you have contact with her is to seem needy or to even bring up any relatonship talk AT ALL. Leave her to do her own thing.. Steve had me up & running in just 2 sessions do you have a credit card? because I finally decided that even if i couldn't recover my marriage I was gonna have a damn god try & the money that i spent would be an investment in my future... This is probably a bit rambly because as you will see by my other post 2nite I am sure that it now really is an affair & i have to deal with that but oh well s**t happens i guess! Good luck & keep us posted hopefully someone will come along soon with some more inspiration for you....

Wrungout,

Thanks for the reply.

I would really like to counsel with the Harley's or someone trained in their teachings. As much as I would like to, financially I'm at least a month away from being able to even consider that. Our financial situation has been part of our problem for quite a while. Maybe even considering bankruptcy.

You mentioned not appearing too needy, talking about the relationship when around WS and such. Did this come from Steve or what. If you check out my last post on "Just Found Out", you'll see a letter from her after I left the house the other day. I haven't responded with anything other than just to let her know that I wouldn't be coming over the next day. I have been wanting to respond again and let her know that despite what may have seemed like me attempting to make changes in myself in the past, that I have never taken it as seriously as now. And that I am seeing a counselor to overcome a lot of things in myself that have made me unhappy, and therefore us unhappy over the past several years. After reading your response, I feel like maybe I should refrain from that for now and just do my best to put on my happy face for now when I'm around her.

Thanks again, and God Bless.

i'm in the same situation, when i found out, i left, currently living with my parents for 8 months, he filed for divorce and is currently living with OW, i've ordered Surviving an Affair, but haven't received it yet, so i can't even start plan A. i don't know what to do, we have been talking on the phone, for the last week, so far no fights, i don't bring up OW, or our problems, just talking about our daughter, i feel like maybe if i didn't leave, maybe i could have fixed our marriage, now i don't know if its too late, although this is what he says, he says its too late, and he has moved on, what should i do, how should i start?

Nezi,

I've only found MB about a week ago and haven't received the book yet either. However I think there's enough information in the articles listed on this site to get you started. You may want to consider counseling with Steve Harley since you are 8 months into this before beginning. It's not cheap, $165 for a 45 minute telephone session, however divorce isn't cheap either. And neither is your sanity. You might try checking with your local libraries to see if they have a copy of the book until you receive yours.

Have you began working on yourself? I don't know your whole situation, so I don't know the particulars. I feel like I need to work on me quite a bit. I was not happy with the person that I was before all of this started, which I'm sure contributed greatly to the A. I'm trying to read and work on me as much as I can. Started going back to church last week also. A greater power than ourselves has to be a help.

Thank you and God Bless.

PLan A is all about making changes in yourself, It's not about trying to win you W or H back it is to demonstrate (not by telling them but by you actions) that you are making changes.

Steve said deffinately no relationship talks for me & H at this crucial stage I am just to be in a holding pattern & working on myself. Deffinately don't show any needyness or crying or that you are upset in any way you must learn to come here & do that to us WE CAN TAKE IT!!! & usually someone comes along with some words of wisdom.

Steve said to me next time i see H to say how r u? & when he says good (as he always does) & asks me how I am i'm to say well actually I'm finding things a bit tough at the moment & if he asks why I am just to say "because I miss you" then i am to change the subject without giving H a chance to reply because as steve says if I give him that chance H will just shoot me down tell me 2 get over it etc etc because Steve says at the moment H has to justify his actions Steve said this will confuse H & the plan is that if things hit the fan with this "friendship" H will see me as a safe place to be Makes sense... I still have my bad days but I sure as hell won't be contacting H when I do.... I hope this has helped you somewhat feel free to ask me any questions you like I will do my best to help any of you.... Hang in there the ride is rough but we must remain postive & help each other through this.... Sorry for the delay in my replay to you but If you r in the states the time difference is a little wacky!!

Whoops! forgot to add.... The roses the roses! I know you did it out of love but she would only see this as you pursuing her & believe me that will only serve to push W away...Also never share with her what you are improving in yourself keep her guessing she will certainly notice any changes & don't send he any emails like the one you were going to send, you are giving her way too much information. Just another thought about the roses, you mentioned that you were in financial trouble right?? Well splashing out on roses could have been a huge love buster to W she ould only have seen it as spending money & also the bit where she is rambling on about stop being nice to her & get mad JUST IGNORE THAT, she is probably feeling uncomfortable that you are being nice & would only be too happy to be able to say that you went off like a rocket (like I have myself soooo many times) remember BABY STEPS.....Talk all ya loike to her about the kids but don't talk about you & if she brings up things about you DON"T ANSWER her just change the subject she will wonder what the hell is going on cause believe you me she will try & bait you so that you love bust...

Message 4 Nezzi! Hey it's never too late so start ya plan A right now, I know it's more difficult (tell me about it) to plan A from a distance as Steve Harley says affairs don't usually last long especially once the H & OW live together they r bound to Love Bust one another sometime soon & by then you will have been plan Aing ya butt off. Your book shouldn't be too far away I am in NZ & got some books i ordered within a week r u sure that your order went through OK first time i ordered from MB my email message didn't work in the meantime read all you can on this site read read read i cannot emphasise this strongly enough! OK hang in there I am sure we will all do the best we can & come here if you feel like venting....Catchya later

Wrung out,

Thanks for the info.

In my defense on the flowers. You're right, she probably did see them as an attempt to win her back rather than just an act of love. However, earlier in our relationship I used to do things like that a lot more often and I know she always loved that stuff. I got the roses quite cheap, only $40 for 4 dozen. It was kind of a gift for our 16th anniversary. She didn't want either one of us to buy each other gifts. She may have looked at it as spending money that we really didn't have but she went out and spent $300 in one week on a few things for "her" (as she calls it) house. And by the end of the week she had taken out another $200 in cash and had spent all of that within a week. She spends when she is depressed or when she feels like it and worries about the consequenses later. I did end up responding in part to her "sorry" letter in the early morning hours last night. She had sent me an email about the cable company calling for payment. Below is my response.

The reason that cable called is because we're a month
late with the bill, they want to do that payment over
the phone. I'll call them today. I had planned on
making these payments to them and others a couple of
weeks ago. When you spent and took out $500 the week
before the week of the 4th it left no money to pay
these people.

We're going to have to sit down in the next few days
and figure out who will pay for what each month. I
can't still be the bad guy who has to tell you that
there's no money to pay bills when you feel like
spending or doing something. I know you have resented
me doing that this past year. You had made the comment
when we sat down at the credit counseling service that
day that you couln't figure out how your Visa
got such a high balance. You don't realize how many
times that one of those bills would come in and it
would be another $300-$400 that you had spent on it in
a month. I'm sure you had a lot of years of seeing
that while you were paying the bills. I wanted to be
able to get you something nice for your 40th birthday
last year, but you went and charged $500 for things
for you and your niece on the Sears card and others before I
could even get a chance to do anything. At that point
I didn't think that I could get you anything that you
would like with any money that would be left over. How
could I match what you had done for yourself.

I'm sorry to have gotten off on this avenue. I have
gone through a lot of years of feeling worse and worse
about myself about not being able to keep up
financially with the wants and needs that we both
have. I know you have said that I focus too much on
the money, but when I see you depressed about things
and you won't share with me about why or what and then
when you do say something that would make you happy
it's usually something material. I feel like such a
loser because I couldn't provide for that. I have
always dreamed of being a hero to you and the boys and
I have felt worse and worse about the fact that each
year I haven't been able to even come close. I don't
mean that I had to make us rich to be a hero, but it
is a man's basic instinct to be able to provide for
his family. I felt so bad about you losing your son and
losing all of those years with him. And I know you had
to work a lot to support you and him during the time
that you did have together. I wanted to be able to
make enough money to be able to keep you home with
our boys to help make up for some of that
time that you lost with your son, although I know nothing
could ever compensate you for that time, it's just
something that I felt I could do, since I didn't ever
feel like I could say or do anything else to make up
to you for what happened to him. A lot of the hours
that I put in at my job "trying to do everything
perfect" was so that I could get promoted above some
of the others there, to be able to move into a higher
paying position there, with less hours. I never had much
confidence in myself as a salesman, I've never been
one of those smooth talking guys that can just sell
you anything. I remember you telling me about the salesman
man that used to come into the resturant where you worked, that was a good
talker, and could just sell you guys anything. I never
had any confidence in my ability to be that smooth, so
I relied on my ability to kind of get to be friends
with a lot of these people, which in my mind meant
talking to them each week. I would always feel like if
I just ran in and ran out like so many others that I
worked with that 1. I would never get promoted. 2. I
would not be able to sell as much and therefore not
make as much. 3. Those people in my accounts would
think of me as someone that had just talked to them in
the past so that I could now just take advantage of
them by running in and out of their accounts. When I
got that bigger sales route that payed so much more
than the others, I was their 2nd or 3rd choice for
that route and I always felt like I had to keep
proving myself on there.

When I first started there I took on the attitude that
I would work as hard and as long as it took to be able
to move up the ladder there so that by the time the
boys were 4,5,6,7 yrs old I would be able to get
promoted and not have to work my body to death each
day and also not so many hours. Then I would be able
to spend more time with you and the boys. When I was
continually passed up and lied to at that job, it made
me very bitter that I had spent all of those hours for
so many years, and sacrificed so much time away from
my family that couldn't ever be gotten back, and it
never payed off for me there. And to have them screw
me over even more when I left, kept me in that bitter
place for a long time. I have been bad about holding a
grudge about things, I just felt like they had
punished you and the boys for me not being good enough
to be promoted.
--------------------------------

I retrospect it may not have been the best letter. I have to get myself away from that place where I'm clinging to her and seeming so needy. I need to focus on standing up for myself (not at the cost of the relaionship) and feeling better about the person that I am becoming.

As I am reading the book it is really hard not to want to tear out a few pages and send them to her to say " Look at what it is that you are really going through", I know that I can't do that, and that at this point it would be more destructive than helpful.

Thanks again wrungout, you can preach to me anytime.

Thank you and God Bless.

thanks wrungout
i should tell him i miss him and i love him, i think there's something wrong with my book order, i feel i have improved myself, but my communication with H is going in the wrong way, i just feel like OW is fulfilling all his needs, and now i am the OW, he calls to find out what i'm upto. instead i should focus on our daughter. another thing, he has filed already, and told me he has moved on with his life, and i should also, is this true, cause then maybe discussing where i'm working and salary stuff, he may be just getting info from me to use in court. i'm very unsure, cause i don't trust him, i know its gonna take a long time to build that trust. any advise!

Nezi! Don't give in... If your H is contacting you that's good (maybe OP is not filling all his emotional needs) Talk to H as much as you can because I know how hard it is when you have very little contact it's much harder to deposit any love units I can tell you. When you talk to H remember to sound upbeat if you think you will run out of things to say write a list that you can refer to while you r talking to him & always keep it by the phone. If you think he's snooping about your income etc etc just beat around the bush don't tell him tell him how much you enjoy your work what you do there etc etc. But surely H knowing what you earn wouldn't make much difference if you had division of assets etc because I would have thought that you would have to disclose your income anyway?? not sure your laws may be way different to ours, anyway just my thoughts.....Good luck

Biscayne! Well as always this is just my view on things but I don't think you need to explain anything to your W she must surely know how much money she spends.. Your letter just sounded to me like you were appologising too much (just my view on this someone else may come in here & shoot me down!) As for the flower thing if it was for your anniversary that was cool but because at this time she doesn't want to be married it may have also given her a bit of a guilt trip & also how was she going 2 explain them 2 Om if he saw them... Don't whatever you do send her any info from the MB books at this stage leave that for later when you can be advised by Steve, he is very good at assessing what plan is needed & I believe we all need the experts in this sort of thing & ya wouldn't take ya kids to the vet if they were sick would ya, nope u would go to the doctors someone who specialised in the problem.
Anyway heres a short rundown on all the mistakes I made that pushed H further away.
1. I became weepy^& crying
2. I kept saying you have chosen your friend over our marriage
3. I wrote him tons of emails (trying to fix him)
4. Showed him the MB site
5. Got cheaper email counselling from the UK BIG MISTAKE!!@ H saw the replies I recieved & my letter to them it was a huge LB as they shot H down without even seeing his side of the story
6.H refused to talk to Steve Harley just recently (a request form Steve himself) so that Steve could further help me but H said a deffinate NO!! I don't talk to anyone about this
7. Decided to go to plan B when we seperated now it's very hard to get contact with H Steve has put me back to plan A
8.Gave H a plan B letter along with my wedding ring, told him it wasn't mine at the moment H left it on the bench so i threw it in the rubbish
9.Wrote a very nice letter to OW explaining that for the time being our marriage was over because of H relationship with her but that I loved H & was willing to wait for him. never told H about this but you can bet she did!@##
10.Was always trying to explain the MB concept to him the only way we conversed at the end was via email, the rest of the time it was a cat fight. H never replied to any of my emails he told me once he is a thinker not a talker??
Anyway just a quick insight into how badly you can make things by being needy of course all this just pushed H to OW, Stupid me but I was an emotional wreck at that time, not thinking straight & was just sooooo desperate to FIX things & just kept pushing hoping that something would click & H would see the light BUT we all know that it doesn't work that way I am the proof... Now I have a huge battle to try & turn this around I hope like hell it's possible but the difference is I am now working on myself, not focusing on H & OW they are not worth wasting my emotional energy on (except when I am plan Aing H of course.
Yesterday I recieved a letter from a company regarding something we had purchased & the final payment had been missed by our accountant (she deals with all our fial accounts now) So I had the opportunity to phone H I acted upbeat just said what I had to say even though I was falling appart inside just hearing H voice & the nice relaxed tone which I haven't been privy to for months was there, I never mentioned anything else just said see ya later & that was it but it was contact non the less....Anyway take from my letter what you like hope my situation helps you some & to see the huge mistakes that can be made. Plan A remember is about you & which way your marriage goes it will make you a better person with lots to offer! Cya

i finally received my book, last night, so i will start at lunch, but last week my H called everyday, and i have not received one call in the last few days, today is our wedding anniversary, 3 years, i sent him an email, telling him i love him and always will. was this a good idea, now i'm thinking maybe it wasn't. ithink i'm trying to hard or something. well, lets see if he calls.

well, he did call, but started explaining that there is no hope for us, he said he felt the same way, but was trying to cope with the situation, and if we get back it would end up the same way later. don't know what to do or say, i try not to talk about the relationship and focus on our daughter. but it end on us. now what?

{{nezi,}}

I'm pretty new here myself so take my words accordingly. Stick in there. I know it's tough, the things that he says just rips your heart out. I'm sure by now you've started reading SAA. It'll help you understand where his head is right now. In the fog. One of the posts refer to the situation as if your WS had been abducted by aliens and had their brain scrambled. I know it's tough but you have to teach yourself to let these things go.

It was suggested to me to find the posts from "lostva", and read some of her stuff. Inspiring. She seems to have been able to hang in there until those aliens let her WH go. Go to the top of the page and "search" for lostva. You'll find several links. Just scan through each one for some by her. There's one where she tells her whole story. It helps a little more than seeing some of the depressing stuff sometimes. I wish I could find more "success" stories here. It tends to give me a little more hope when it seems like there isn't any. I have to keep believing that all will work out for the best in the long run. As much as I would like the pain to be over quicker, I know that if the W and I got back together too soon, it would remove the motivation for me to make the changes in myself.

Just a suggestion. You may hang out here on this thread as long as you'd like, but you may get more responses and quicker if you started a seperate thread. It was suggested to me to jump over to General Questions II and start one. There's more traffic over there. Just go to the bottom of this page and use that dropdown box to find Gen. Ques. II and then go to there and get something started.

Hope some of this helps.

Thank you and God Bless.

i appreciate any help i can get, my H called again, telling me he wants to remain friends with me, and he admits that most of our problems were his fault, but he never cheated on me, and that i was a good wife, always organized and stuff. and he will never find someone like me, and that he wants to see me happy with someone else. is this the end, or is he throwing me into confusion. thanks for your help, i will go to gen questions also,

Nezi my H also said he wanted to remain friends with me but does he treat his friends like that by telling them he no longer needs the friendship no sir I shouldn't think so or he wouldn't have any left.
Maybe your H brings up the relationship talk because he is trying to justify what he is doing & by telling you that it's over maybe he is hoping to get you mad so that will once again make him feel better I don't know but just my opinion, actually I have the harleys book called Love Busters it's an excellent book maybe you should see if your library has it... Has some very good stuff in it

Biscayne! You are sounding more positive 2day & looks like you have your head around things... keep up the good work & as I said to Nezi another book I am reading at the moment is called Love buster (by the harleys) it's very good & I almost wish that I had read that one first but hey hindsights a great thing aint it!!

wrungout,
Thanks. It's easier to encourage others rather than yourself sometimes. I don't know about having my head around this. Spent several hours sitting down at the beach last night, feeling sorry for myself. Not the best thing to do, I know. The part that tears me up inside is not knowing what will be the outcome of all of this. I'm sure that this is for the best also.

I received SAA and also LB in the mail a couple of days ago and have been reading SAA. Why do you say that you wish you had read LB first? I am having trouble trying to figure out how to meet WW's EN from outside the home without my appearing needy. Guess I'm confusing meeting EN with trying to hold on. She made the comment about receiving more flowers from me in the last few weeks than she had in the past 3 yrs. The last flowers that I got for her only cost $5 so it really doesn't hurt our financial situation that much. I just wonder, because of her reaction, if I should keep it up or not. I call each night that the boys are with her to talk to our boys for a minute and to tell them I love them and to say good night. And also call her on the nights that they are with me so that she can tell them good night. She always gets back on afterward and I tell her good night and I love you also. No real response, just good night. She has made the comment before that she doesn't want to give me false hopes. She did agree that we could get together as a family to go to a local water park for our youngest's birthday. We'll actually be going on the same weekend as the anniversary of her son's death.

Thanks for the words of encouragement wrungout, I really do appreciate it.

Thank you and God Bless.

Well hello there! the reason I wished I had read the Love busters book first is because my H still denies that he is having an A it's just a "friendship" yip one that finished a 27yr marriage...And now they are at each others places every chance they get.....
Well because of h flat out denials If i had read LB first I would have had more insight into how to work I guess instead of getting all wrapped up in the affair thing which I was focusing on & doing some major LB ie: you are chosing your friendship with ow over our marriage!.
Anyway remember you are working on you right now & that includes going to the beach & feelin as p****d off as ya like. Next time ya go heres a little project for ya as you sit watching those waves crash think of them as crashing over your heart washing away all the crap then think of them as massaging your heart to help you along with this roller coaster ride I am sure you will feel better...again just my advise but also before you leave the beach next time make a small sandcastle next to the water, then sit & watch it as the water comes in & it dissapears it will quickly crumble & dissapear as Wallace pointed out to me sand castles are built on similar foundations to an affair in that they are unstable & don't last!!! NO I HAVEN"T BEEN SNIFFING TURPS!! just something that popped into my head & had to send it to you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> anyway have yaself a good weekend keep telling ya kids that you love them but your wife knows you love her so in my opinion I would drop that every time you talk to her because right now it's not what she wants to hear... PLan A is not about winning your wife back it's about you & I know it's very hard but if you stick to it she will notice, if she doesn't i will pop over the pacific & take the blinkers off for her!! hee hee just jokin of course! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Anyway next time ya feel like this <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> ask yaself some <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> get down to that beach again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> & come back wearing a <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />