Ok,

I can't do anything today. Short of maybe calling the police and saying what? He was swearing at my kids, and yelling about the groc list? No, you have to know the whole hx of abuse.

So, here's my plan. He's been driving my car to work, so to the best of my knowledge, he has no house keys. I'll get them all together tonight.

Tomorrow after he leaves for work, I will send the Plan B email. But instead of asking him to leave, I'll tell him that the house is locked and that his clothing etc. that he will need for a while are in .... what? Probably the big truck. I'll move the Exp. into the garage so that it cannot be sabotaged.

I will also say that if he attempts to force himself into the house I will call the sheriff and have a restraining order sworn out.

AND that if he makes any other trouble for me, I will call his boss and reveal what I know to be the truth about his employment hx.

I'll post the Plan B email here early in the morning.

He's gone now, took off his ring before he left. Supposedly went to buy things to fix the diesel tank, who knows. At this point I'm not sure I care.

So we just need to get through the rest of today without someone getting hurt... more.

And then I really could use some business.

Like the name? Same letters, different order.

C

Crier - welcome to MB!

Don't have much to offer right now, but wanted you to know someone was listening.

M

Wow. An extreme situation that requires extreme measures I suppose.

It sounds like you've really thought out your plan. However, it leaves me feeling very nervous <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> and worried about you. What if something goes wrong - your H may fly off the handle worse than before, right?

If there's any way to check with a lawyer first to ensure the legality of the plan is sound, I would, to cover your own behind. Maybe call the police and ask if they would even have the power to swear out a restraining order.

Also, if you do go ahead with things, I would strongly urge you to have another adult (friend, relative) in the house with you after he leaves, for your own safety, and just to have another set of eyes and ears around for if / when he returns. You'll want a witness around. Maybe also have a video camera handy. I can imagine him trying to break his way back in from the few things you've already said about him. Perhaps also set up a tape recorder on the phone in case he calls and yells a lot of inappropriate (but legally damning) things.

Also, you never know if he has a housekey somewhere in some unknown place.....maybe you should get the locks changed? Maybe you shouldn't risk going through with this plan?

But, here's a bizarre perspective to consider in regards to the locks too:
I am WS and I'm about to move out (for a few months of real separation). I'm considering involving a lawyer so my H can't get our locks changed (he's been threatening to do so once I'm out). From the first indications, based on the fact that my name is both on the mortgage and land title still, he can't legally change the locks, and he can't keep me from entering MY OWN house either.

I pray your husband isn't as smart as me though.

All in all, I am nervous <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> about your plan, and would urge you to maybe think things over and do some research for at least 24 more hours. It's amazing how much perspective we can gain on an emotionally charged situation by waiting just one day.

Good luck and take care,

Jen

PS: One last thought - is there anywhere YOU can go and take the kids with you, that he won't know about (instead of the plan)?

Crier -

Good luck in the morning. I am so nervous and scared that I can't sleep.

Another threat that you could add to your Plan B letter is that you will reveal H's SA to HIS MOTHER! Isn't it extremely important to him that she never discover details of this side of his personality?

Maybe that will buy you some time and keep him away from the house until you come up with a better plan.

Remember, my offer still stands. I wish Virginia Beach was a closer option for you, but it's the best I can do.

Please do not avoid discussing all that has happened with the boys. Tell them that H has an illness that causes his unacceptable behavior and answer all of their related questions. This will be such a comfort to them.

My heart is breaking for all of you and I am praying a thousand prayers that everything will be ok.

Consult with an attorney first before changing the locks because you may be getting yourself in a heap of trouble if you go ahead with it.

His abusive behavior warrants a restraining order and maybe if you get one, then it might be ok for you to change the locks.

But again, consult an attorney before you do anything like changing the locks.

Harley has stated that there are M that should not be saved, especially ones where there is abuse and violence involved. MB methodology is no equipped to deal with these situations.

Plan B is when you still have hope for your M but your LB is running close to empty (which in your case is pretty much self evident). It is the plan of last resort in which you give your H a letter expressing love but telling him that the situation has become intolerable for you to continue to bear. IT IS NOT a threat filled letter.

If you plan on threatening him then you might as well kiss your M goodbye and start posting in the Divorcing/Divorced board instead. No matter how just the cause is, threats never foster respect much less love.

You might be better served by talking to the Harley's to get their opinion on your situation.

Crier-
Coffeeguy is right about changing the locks. My WS broke a window to get into my house one day when I was pretending to not be home. I contacted my attorney the next day, and was told that she can't get in trouble for breaking into her own house since her name is on the house title. Also, I don't think it's legal to record a phone call like JB suggested unless the other party agrees to it. Regardless, don't do anything until you've had time to cool off a bit and talked with an attorney. The whole thing could very well blow up in your face, and you could find yourself with some legal problems.

But regarding the restraining order, it might be more fitting to file for a protection order which addresses domestic violence or threats. But you also have to remember that it takes some time. It isn't done overnight. This is another issue I know about because my W unjustly filed both against me (the protection order was thrown out). Besides, a restraining order is nearly trivial, and persons that break the order is charged only with a misdemeanor. Once again, do your homework and see an attorney. If your H is prone to violence and you fear for the safety of your kids, you need to get them to safe ground somewhere away from your house. They are the number one priority here.

Incidentally, you posted under the "Infidelity" forum, but didn't say anything in regards to an A. So I'm going to assume he is in an A. Is that what you were talking about when you wrote about your H's work history?

Anyway, take some time, if time allows, to gather your thoughts before making decisions, rather than acting on heat of the moment. Keep us posted.

TJS

Well here it is, d-day. Not in the traditional MB sense, but d-day all the same.

Wow. Thanks to everyone who replied overnight. Unless you have been here you can't imagine what a difference it makes to not be so isolated.

For those of you who don't know me, I' ve been an MB member since somewhere in 2000. I created a new account yesterday and moved to a board where I've never been for safety reasons. You can read the last 8 months of what's been happening in my life at the JFO thread started by persistant. I'm cerri.

To address what you said first, and then my thoughts on the email I will send.

M: THANK YOU!!

Jen: If there's any way to check with a lawyer first to ensure the legality of the plan is sound, I would, to cover your own behind. Maybe
call the police and ask if they would even have the power to swear out a restraining order.

I suppose I could. But I can't afford an atty. And frankly, at this point I don't care. Well, I do. But here's my thought. I'll have the house, and he won't. If he wants to dispute the legality of it, then HE can go to the trouble and the expense of hiring an atty. Given his issues with being able to follow through, I doubt I have much to fear. And if he actually did do something, well, I still have the house til it gets to

lso, if you do go ahead with things, I would strongly urge you to have another adult (friend, relative) in the house with you after
he leaves, for your own safety, and just to have another set of eyes and ears around for if / when he returns.

Great idea. My two oldest boys are here. They are 17 and 19. I wonder if that's good enough? I don't know who else I would call around here.

I don't want to end or seriously damage the M, I need to set a boundary that should have been done long ago. When he gets help and can control his temper I hope we can fix our M.

Also, you never know if he has a housekey somewhere in some unknown place.....maybe you should get the locks changed?
Maybe you shouldn't risk going through with this plan?

Ohhhhh no. It's been too long, too many times of telling him to leave and then letting him stay. Hmm Mmm. THIS time it's for real. After what he said to my son last night??? NO.

But I did think about the possibility of a key being hidden. He is the sort to do that kind of thing. My 19yo could easily change out the locks today, we'd just have to gol buy new ones.

The other option is to TELL H that I changed them, I doubt he would bother to check.

I am WS and I'm about to move out (for a few months of real separation). I'm considering involving a lawyer so my H can't get our
locks changed (he's been threatening to do so once I'm out). From the first indications, based on the fact that my name is both on
the mortgage and land title still, he can't legally change the locks, and he can't keep me from entering MY OWN house either.

Are you not seeing OM anymore? Why the separation? What is the state of recovery at this time?

Re the locks. In my 1st M, I was the WS. XH and I owned (still do but that's a story for a different day) a business together. Long before the D went to court AND while there were orders in place that neither of us was to change/move anything, he changed the locks on the business, closed the checking account (joint), bounced any checks I had written, and has done business without me since (this was in '98)

A court order will not protect you unless there is someone willing to fight for you to have it enforced. Don't fool yourself. He can change those locks as fast as you can say Home Depot.

It's amazing how much perspective we can gain on an emotionally charged situation by waiting just one day.

I know I'm new to you here. But really as Runner and Marissa can tell you, it's been a long time coming. I appreciate your care and your words. It helps.

_____

Runner: You found me! Where have you been by the way? Oh. Tossing clothing about he laundry room? LOL

I'm sorry you didn't sleep. I did fairly well. A few odd dreams but not bad. I guess the angst and the not knowing what to do and the back and forth just dropped away. I've HAD it. Poor Brian. the look on his face when H said that yesterday.

Here's a kid that's been ignored by his own dad, had a hellish time all through school, has been floating around rootless and lost for a year involved with drugs. He has the courage to ask for help and now is fighting and clawing his way to try to make something of his life and that JERK says something like that to him. NO MORE! OH!! I'm so angry, NO MORE!!!

Yes, I will talk to the boys. I've said this before, that I just don't know how to address it, because I don't want to take sides and I don't want to paint him as the bad guy. I don't believe in doing those divisive things in families. But your thoughts are good, I can do it in that perspective.

____

TMCM: Harley has stated that there are M that should not be saved, especially ones where there is abuse and violence involved. MB
methodology is no equipped to deal with these situations.

Well actually, MB is very well designed to deal with abuse and violence. It's called separation and Plan B until the abusing spouse seeks help and can guarantee that he/she will not so much as make a demand in any circumstance. He does talk quite a bit about the fact that those with control issues are the hardest cases he has. It's more difficult to deal with than

You might be better served by talking to the Harley's to get their opinion on your situation.

You have no idea how funny that is, because you don't know the entire story, but yes, been there. For years. Dr. Harley once asked me privately "why on earth do you want to stay with this guy?"

I know the drill and I know what things H will and will not respond to.

____

TJS:
Anyway, take some time, if time allows, to gather your thoughts before making decisions, rather than acting on heat of the
moment. Keep us posted.

Appreciate your concern, and it is what I would post to a newbie too. But really it's not the heat of the moment. It's 5 years of intensive MB study and attempting every way possible to repair this M. No, it is time. And if he wants to take legal action for being locked out, then time is still on my side.

No he's not in an A now. He was fired from his previous job due to his extreme use of internet porn, sex entertainment while travelling, and hiring hookers online at work. The SA has been addressed and has not been an issue in over a year.

I posted here because Plan B has other applications outside of infidelity, and because I've never been here before. He reads where I usually post, and probably could search on my member number associated with my usual name, Cerri. So I rearranged the letters in my name and reregistered.

Dear Crier:

I would like you to know that I once lived through what you are living through now. The only difference was that I was the child in the story, and my mother was in your position.

Looking back on it now, my biggest frustration is how long mother waited to leave. It was the best thing she ever could have done for herself and for the kids. Yes, she lost a lot financially. Her H was so enraged, he spent the first night ripping all the clothes she had left at the house, throwing them into garbarge bags and dumping them on my grandmother's lawn. Several trips of this. She lost whatever money she had put into the house, plus fees and all the money needed to start over. Yes, it was disruptive. We were pulled out of school a couple of times as she moved us around to keep us safe. Lots of calls to the police. And yelling and screaming and frothing at the mouth. But believe me, it was worth it.

I am troubled by your reluctance to contact the police in advance of this move. You should let them know what is going on. And, given the legal ambiguities of the situation (can he be kept out of his own house), you need a "Plan B" -- not the MB type, but the "where will we go if we can't keep him out of the house" type. Please consider leaving town if that's what it will take.

I worry about what seems to be an ambiguous attitude toward your marriage. [But I concede that I am reading this very quickly and may have misread something.] On the one hand, you point out that even Harley doesn't understand why you're still with your husband. On the other, you say you don't want to end the marriage, and you don't want to turn your kids against your husband. While you're doing a good job of towing the MB line, I don't like your ambivalence toward your marriage. Call it over -- for your sake and for your children's. Speaking from a child's point of view, each time I heard my mother say she might go back to him yet again, that she was buying his line of bull, that she couldn't afford to leave, was more upsetting than I can say. The most welcome thing I ever heard was that it was over FOREVER.

Crier, like many other people on the board, I am very worried about you. In spite of your unvarnished language, I wonder if you are doing all you can today to keep yourself safe. Please be careful.

Curious.

Plan B letter, by the book.

Dear S,

I once loved you more than anyone or anything else on this planet. I remember how good that was and I would like to be able to restore that.

When I married you, it wasn't just for life. If you remember, the vow I took was forever. I meant it. I want to stay married to you. Or, as the song goes, "You're the one that I want."

I appreciate the work you have done lately in regards to meeting needs, but the effect is ruined by your abuse of me and the children.

Your demands, control, anger, and abuse have all but destroyed the love I had for you. And more than that, it is destroying my dignity and self-respect. It is painful beyond belief.

The damage to the children is immeasurable. The thing you said to Brian was unspeakably horrific, especially considering where he is right now.

I cannot let this continue another day. So it is with much sadness that I send this to you.

I am no longer asking you to leave. The locks have been changed and you will not be able to get into the house. I will put together whatever things you would like, clothing etc. and leave them in the big truck for you, or if you wish, deliver them somewhere. I will take good care of Boo and Bitsy.

My hope and my wish is that we can work this out, but I must stop the pain here right now.

When you have taken steps to address the anger and control issues and explore the borderline possibility, I really want to be with you again. I miss you. I miss loving you.

Until then, I ask that you not contact me except in the case of extreme necessity.

I hope I don't need to say this, but if you try to break into the house or threaten me in any way, I will not hesitate to call P Co. Sherrif and to get a restraining order.

There are some financial issues to discuss. I will pay the USB pmt. and all associated house expenses. I will not be accruing anything towards the taxes. I will pay the Exp. pmt. but not the Dodge. I would ask you to pay 1/2 of the vehicle insurance and 1/2 of the homeowners insurance. Our GM card is paid in full through the last statement. I will transfer any new business charges off of there to my card, but I will not pay any of the rest of the new charges. Obviously, I will not use it again as of today.

Everything has been paid for this month, but it requires that you deposit your check into the USB account at the end of the week. If you decide not to do that, then I'll send you a list of the payments that will not get mailed.

I'm sorry S...

P

______

So does that meet my criteria for Plan B letters?

1. I love you (or I did)
2. I married you for life
3. I want to stay married to you
4. This thing that you are doing is too painful for me to endure
5. To protect myself from further pain I am separating from you
6. Please do not contact me until the issue is addressed.
7. At that point I want to repair the M

I think so. Much easier to make an outline than to write the letter.

C

Designate an intermediary for contact. No direct contact. His parents maybe.

Don't promise to bring him stuff. No contact. Promise to work it out with help of intermediary.

There is not enough no contact language in this letter.

Curious,

Thank you, this made me cry:

I would like you to know that I once lived through what you are living through now. The only difference was that I was the child in the story, and my mother was in your position.

You know me, you know. We've talked at persistant's JFO thread. Cerri

I am troubled by your reluctance to contact the police in advance of this move. You should let them know what is going on. And, given the legal ambiguities of the situation (can he be kept out of his own house), you need a "Plan B" -- not the MB type, but the "where will we go if we can't keep him out of the house" type. Please consider leaving town if that's what it will take.

Yes, I know the possibility exists theoretically. But I would be shocked beyond belief if he didn't just slink away. He has NEVER been either proactive or reactive in the sense that he would seek help in any way. Remember he has severe follow through issues. We've dealt with a couple of lawsuits in the last 5 years where we were in 100% in the right and he couldn't bring himself to call his lawyer even for a status report. And I'm certain he wouldn't call the police. After the run in we had 2 years ago, oh no. No, he is terrified of having any police action.

I worry about what seems to be an ambiguous attitude toward your marriage. [But I concede that I am reading this very quickly and may have misread something.] On the one hand, you point out that even Harley doesn't understand why you're still with your husband. On the other, you say you don't want to end the marriage, and you don't want to turn your kids against your husband.

Isn't everyone that way? Maybe it's just me. But I'm hardcore MB and really do believe that M's, even ones as bad as mine can be saved. I should have done this long ago. I didn't, fear of the SA more than anything. And even today fear that it really will be the end. I loved him. A lot. I want that back, and I want my family safe. I guess that adds up to ambiguity.

[b[Call it over -- for your sake and for your children's. Speaking from a child's point of view, each time I heard my mother say she might go back to him yet again, that she was buying his line of bull, that she couldn't afford to leave, was more upsetting than I can say. The most welcome thing I ever heard was that it was over FOREVER.[/b]

Yes, I understand that. But this time, there are requirments for reconciliation. Per a real Plan B plan.

C

Crier:
Yes, I know.
I'm crying for the fact that I cannot drive out there and help you. Please be safe.
Curious

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by curious53:
<strong>Designate an intermediary for contact. No direct contact. His parents maybe.

Don't promise to bring him stuff. No contact. Promise to work it out with help of intermediary.

There is not enough no contact language in this letter.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I agree. Offering to bring his stuff can be construed as willing to reconsider. His parents are not workable as intermediaries. In fact I think I should call them first, but maybe that's revenge talking.

Anyway, he works about an hour from here. I would like to not have him drive all the way here tonight and then beg to stay. I could deliver his stuff to his car without him knowing it, and leave the letter with the stuff. But then I need to drive across the city and back.

Because of the possible borderline issues, I want to leave out as much chance of humiliation as possible. This is a HUGE trigger. And will set off all kinds of stuff. Maybe the best is to just put stuff in truck and let him drive all the way here.

Curious,
Where are all the MBers that should be in the Twin Cities area??? After all, this is the founding city, so to speak.

You're right. More no contact language. Editing now.

C

Edits:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by crier:
Plan B letter, by the book.

Dear S,

I once loved you more than anyone or anything else on this planet. I remember how good that was and I would like to be able to restore that.

When I married you, it wasn't just for life. If you remember, the vow I took was forever. I meant it. I want to stay married to you. Or, as the song goes, "You're the one that I want."

I appreciate the work you have done lately in regards to meeting needs, but the effect is ruined by your abuse of me and the children.

Your demands, control, anger, and abuse have all but destroyed the love I had for you. And more than that, it is destroying my dignity and self-respect. It is painful beyond belief.

The damage to the children is immeasurable. The thing you said to Brian was unspeakably horrific, especially considering where he is right now.

I cannot let this continue another day. So it is with much sadness that I send this to you.

I am no longer asking you to leave. The locks have been changed and you will not be able to get into the house. I will put together whatever things you would like, clothing etc. and leave them in the big truck for you. I will take good care of Boo and Bitsy.

My hope and my wish is that we can work this out, but I must stop the pain right now.

When you have taken steps to address the anger and control issues, and explore the borderline possibility, I really want to be with you again. I miss you. I miss loving you.

Until then, I ask that you not contact me except in the case of extreme necessity.

I hope I don't need to say this, but if you try to break into the house or threaten me in any way, I will not hesitate to call P Co. Sherrif and to get a restraining order.

There are some financial issues to discuss. I will pay the USB pmt. and all associated house expenses. I will not be accruing anything towards the taxes. I will pay the Exp. pmt. but not the Dodge. I would ask you to pay 1/2 of the vehicle insurance and 1/2 of the homeowners insurance. Our GM card is paid in full through the last statement. I will transfer any new business charges off of there to my card, but I will not pay any of the rest of the new charges. Obviously, I will not use it again as of today.

Everything has been paid for this month, but it requires that you deposit your check into the USB account at the end of the week. If you decide not to do that, then I'll send you a list of the payments that will not get mailed.

I have avoided this step for a long time. Afraid of losing you. I am still fearful of that, from the day we met it's always been you and only you. But finally I realized that I will be without you anyway if things continue in this way. Please, do not contact me until you have found a way to deal with the anger and the control. Good intentions and apologies are not enough.

I'm sorry S...

P

______

So does that meet my criteria for Plan B letters?

1. I love you (or I did)
2. I married you for life
3. I want to stay married to you
4. This thing that you are doing is too painful for me to endure
5. To protect myself from further pain I am separating from you
6. Please do not contact me until the issue is addressed.
7. At that point I want to repair the M

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">C

<small>[ August 19, 2002, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: crier ]</small>

Hi C,

Praying for you today. I read your Plan B letter, and it&#8217;s fine. Textbook, meets all the requirements, etc. &#8211; I&#8217;d expect nothing less from you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I, like everyone else, am probably just wondering whether he&#8217;s going to just try to push his way back into the house. Is there some place he could go &#8211; someone for him to stay with &#8211; that might work out. Guess I&#8217;d be more hopeful then. OTOH, when I left, I found an extended stay apartment the next day, and then a corporate apartment after that. Suspect he could do the same.

Yesterday, I believe you wrote something about him leaving to go someplace, and him taking his wedding rings off prior to leaving. Am I confused, or what&#8217;s up with that? Is he rebelling too?

C, I didn&#8217;t realize things were so verbally abusive in your house. I knew H had the tirades, just thought they were less often. God (or Goddess) bless you for helping so many people when you had more than enough problems at home to deal with.

P

Hi P,

Praying for you today.

Thanks, it means a lot.

I, like everyone else, am probably just wondering whether he&#8217;s going to just try to push his way back into the house.

No he's more likely to try to beg his way back into the house. If you have never seen the abuse cycle in action you can't begin to comprehend the swings. Here is the email I got this morning:

"Penny,
I know this weekend was awful and that saying I'm sorry won't do. I
feel
terrible about it. I can't believe what has been happening. I feel
like I have
already lost everything that was ever important to me."

Did you see the movie Sleeping with the Enemy? Where the guy went from beating the snot out of her to buying her gifts and wanting to make love all in the course of a day? It's like watching a puppy turn into a rabid wolf and back Very disorienting. And you don't know which is the real person. And then you begin to doubt your own sanity, because each manifestation has no recollection and no apparent connection to the other.

When he's angry, he doesn't remember things he's said and promised when he's not. And when it 's over, he does not recall the things he said and did. It's horrifying and nearly impossible to explain.

And, when I went to jail 2 years ago, they told us that if there was a call from this residence again someone (didn't matter who, apparently!) would be charged with a felony. I really doubt that's the case, seeing how I was not charged with anything other than disorderly conduct. I'm sure it was a threat with the hope that doing so would stop further inicidents. But he's taken that to heart. He gets frightened that someone will call the police if I cry, so no, he's not going to do anything that might get his name in the paper.

Is there some place he could go &#8211; someone for him to stay with &#8211; that might work out.

No, I don't even know if he'll tell his parents. It's the humiliation factor. Don't talk to anyone, don't ask for help.

OTOH, when I left, I found an extended stay apartment the next day, and then a corporate apartment after that. Suspect he could do the same.

It's not my problem any more. I have to take care of me. He could afford to rent a house if he really wanted to.

Yesterday, I believe you wrote something about him leaving to go someplace, and him taking his wedding rings off prior to leaving. Am I confused, or what&#8217;s up with that? Is he rebelling too?

No, I took mine off to work with the horse.... safety.... had fingers caught on rings before when a horse got bouncy. Anyway, he saw them on the counter and tossed his off too before leaving to do some shopping. To hurt me I'm sure, he was a bit irrational yesterday, to say the least. He was gone quite a long time considering what he said he did. And I just don't have the energy to care. If he found every hooker in Hudson and screwed them all and then bought them all dinner I just don't know if I care today.

C, I didn&#8217;t realize things were so verbally abusive in your house.

No, it's pretty much like this all the time. And the periods when it's not are filled with the fear of knowing it's coming out of the blue at any moment.

So the letter is ok? Do I send it now or wait til later in the day? I have not responded to the earlier email.

C

<small>[ August 19, 2002, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: crier ]</small>

Hi Again C,

Things busy here at work. Sorry for the late reply.

Nah, not that I was real concerned about his housing issues either. Just trying to second-guess whether he&#8217;s going to put a lot of effort or fight to get back in.

Yes, the additional no-contact stuff you put in was good. When to send him the letter? Well, you obviously know him better than me, but I suspect he&#8217;s going to skip out of work and come driving directly home when he gets it. Just make sure that you&#8217;ve already taken care of the clothes stuff beforehand. Also, I&#8217;d be concerned about waiting too late to send it, and risk him not getting it before he leaves work to return home. THAT would be a nightmare &#8211; him trying to fumble his way into the door, clueless. All just practical things to consider, I guess. I don&#8217;t think it sitting on your computer is doing YOU any good. Probably best to send it, get his stuff together. I know I had boxes of stuff required just to live in a extended stay place. Toiletries, shoes, clothes &#8230; It&#8217;ll probably take you some time to get this together.

Given your comments though, sounds like there are a few things stacked in your favor that might allow you to pull this off. I suspect tomorrow though, he&#8217;s gonna be on the computer searching this site, trying to get a clue.

Intermediary? Have one? Good or bad, one thing you have in your favor is that you don&#8217;t have to schedule child visits for him.

P

Hi P,

Things busy here at work. Sorry for the late reply.

How dare they expect you to take time from here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />


but I suspect he&#8217;s going to skip out of work and come driving directly home when he gets it.

I would be shocked if he did that. He would have to give someone a reason for leaving. That would require talking to someone. No, I suspect he'll email and call and beg. Caller id is a good thing. I also suspect he'll call from Prescott when he gets there.

Also, I&#8217;d be concerned about waiting too late to send it, and risk him not getting it before he leaves work to return home. THAT would be a nightmare &#8211; him trying to fumble his way into the door, clueless.

Oh yes. THAT would be horrendous. I need to allow enough time for him to think I did change the locks. So, I'm thinking noonish.

It&#8217;ll probably take you some time to get this together.

20 minutes, maybe 30. Unless he wants tools, too. I might buy deadbolts for the doors between the garage and the house, then he could take things from there. I like that idea.

I suspect tomorrow though, he&#8217;s gonna be on the computer searching this site, trying to get a clue.

As soon as he gets the email. I need to edit out elektra's link. Just hoping to hear from Hoffs. Although, if he was as smart as me, he'd been checking out where you guys are posting. I need to go back and play in the usual spots too.

Intermediary? Have one?

Nope. I suppose HT's a little too far?? No, no kid visits, but he will want to do things here. I need to think on that. Not for at least 30 days. Maybe he can find a good coach in that time? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Hey!! I think this means we're cleaning the house today!

Ok, need to do kid things, buy some locks and then send the email. Send me strength, this is really hard.

C

Crier:

First thing I did this morning was check this thread. I'm still nervous for you. I agree with the general opinion here of maintain NO contact and try to find an intermediary of some sort.

Good luck since you sound like you're going through with this. Lock all the doors, close all the windows, and you and your boys take care!!

In response to your questions:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Are you not seeing OM anymore? Why the separation? What is the state of recovery at this time?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, not seeing OM anymore. Ended A before d-day. Separation because OM was H's BF, and I had to be confronted (I lied and said nothing was going on). My H is hurt beyond belief. Separation also because my H isn't capable of working on things, well trying to live like H and W again at this point. This is due to his inability to get over his anger, inability to forgive, his parents have told him to get rid of me, and he spends most if not all of his free time with a female colleague/friend. I can't handle living in the same house as him, even if we live in separate bedrooms. It hurts too much to watch him just coldly go about his life and not care to act like my H, go on and on about what's wrong with me, and remind me how he's perfect, and then have him asking for SF, but still not being willing to spend any daytime hours with me. So I wanted to leave and try living on my own, for my own sanity. He wants me out since I'm at fault. We're on good, calm terms with each other and have agreed to try living apaprt for 2-3 months and then re-evaluate things.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> A court order will not protect you unless there is someone willing to fight for you to have it enforced. Don't fool yourself. He can change those locks as fast as you can say Home Depot. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Crap. That sucks. He wants to change the locks because he thinks I'll show up here unannounced all the time, when his female friend/colleague is over I guess, and go psycho. He figures I won't really leave him alone. He probably also figures I will enter the house to snoop around and see what he's been up to. I love him but this desire to change the locks makes me think, "what the hell am I doing with this man if he wants to lock me out of his life?"

Again, take care!!

Jen

Hi C,

How dare they expect you to take time from here

Yeah, I think I need a new contract!

Unless he wants tools, too. I might buy deadbolts for the doors between the garage and the house, then he could take things from there. I like that idea.

Oh, very good. Don&#8217;t stand between a man and his powertools! C, I think I would go ahead and change out the other locks &#8211; the locks to the house &#8211; too. I think if for no other reason that it would allow you to sleep at night. More secure. Or, you can just take them to a locksmith and have them all rekeyed. I did that about a year ago, when we changed maid services. I think it was about $10 per lock. Then you don&#8217;t have to worry about the new locks fitting in the old holes.

Just hoping to hear from Hoffs.

Ask HT to send a note to HoFS. I think the two of them trade e-mails.

Glad you&#8217;re up off of the floor. Now, take care of things &#8211; for you and your children. C, this is probably the step in your marriage that you should have taken long ago. But you&#8217;ve certainly exhausted all of the other possibilities to-date.

Send me strength, this is really hard.

I expect it is. Ok, woman, now go &#8220;roar.&#8221; Sorry, couldn&#8217;t resist. Nah, if I had a candle, I would light it. But I&#8217;m thinking of you. And praying for safety. And for him to see the light, finally!

P

Crier:
Be sure to brief the kids explicitly. Tell them to call 911 if any of the following happens:
1. H starts to break in door.
2. H is about to hurt you or any child.
3. H shows up with any weapon.
ect. Maybe other posters can help with scenarios.
I think you need to draw out these scenarios with the kids so they will know what to do if the need arises. I remember once when my step-father was physically restraining my mother and wouldn't let her get up from the sofa for about 2 hours. When it was over, I told my mom I considered calling her sister (who lived on a completely different coast -- who knows what I thought she would do), and my mom said, "you should have called the police." Well, if I had known that would have been ok with her, I would have.
Your children are looking to you for direction here. Let them know that it is all right to call the authorities if things get out of hand.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by curious53:

Your children are looking to you for direction here. Let them know that it is all right to call the authorities if things get out of hand.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, I will. It's a good thought. I also need to talk to them about answering the phone. Although with caller ID, they usually don't unless it's their friends.

C

Jen,

Iwant to talk about your situation. There are some ideas I have that might help you get things moving in the right direction.

But right now, I gotta go buy locks.

C

And please everyone, this is so hard, keep me in your thoughts. From the JFO thread, tell AAF and any others who don't know how you got here where I am. I need you guys today.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by crier:
<strong>
And please everyone, this is so hard, keep me in your thoughts. From the JFO thread, tell AAF and any others who don't know how you got here where I am. I need you guys today.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">C,
Wow I am so sorry it has come to this.. but maybe this will help your H to "get it" ya know? I am SO glad that you, and your children are safe, that is the most important thing.. I am sending prayers and positive thoughts to you today.. ((((CRIER))))) I have never met someone who under such great stress at home, continues to help as many people as you do.. Please stay safe ..

aaf

Crier,

I just talked to a lawyer about the door locks. He basically said why not just let my H change the locks and leave it at that. If things are as amicable as we think they are, he'll let me in if and when necessary. He also said I could just rip off the new locks and put on new ones since it's my house, but then we just start a one-up-manship war, and forget being amicable. He suggested I simply tell my H it's unnecessary to change the locks, and that I'll respect his wishes not to come over or into the house without informing him first. I'll try that and see what happens.

I am eager to hear your thoughts later. If you want email me at daisybabe73@hotmail.com.

Happy lock shopping to you!

Take care,

Jen

C- I'm here. sending strength your way. Wish I knew what to say...

It looks like you got things pretty much figured out, so not much can be said except good luck and God(dess) bless you and your family.

On another note Jen has a post where your expertise might help her tremendously, here's the link:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=30;t=001422

Crier,
In answer to your question on p's thread.. I think it's time.. His behavior this weekend was totally unacceptable.. You do not deserve to be treated in a way that has you continually worried about your safety and your children's safety.. He has had AMPLE time and he has the knowledge of the harley principles to do something to save your marriage, and with the delivery of this letter, he will have a reason to put his knowledge into action.. IMO..

You are putting your boundaries in place.. You do not deserve to be treated in this manner.. and even though he's being nice at the moment.. you know the crash is right around the corner. A wise woman once said "Every one of us has the right to set out the conditions under which the relationship can continue! This includes Care as well as Protection, and is ESSENTIAL for Recovery." You know what the conditions need to be.. you have written them down.. You now need to protect yourself and your children...

JMHO

aaf (((CRIER)))

Hi C,

Thought I&#8217;d take it back over here. Now, please tell me why you wouldn&#8217;t do this? The shots across the bow have all been exhausted haven&#8217;t they? Are you starting to back up some thinking that maybe just Sat&#8217;s blowup with the kids was him rebelling against the negotiating stuff? Finally not able to weasel around or back out of doing his share of the work? And losing it realizing that you&#8217;ve finally figured him out, and you&#8217;ve got a way to end the manipulation?

Ok, let&#8217;s consider dropping the letter and the Plan B for a second. BTW, you&#8217;ve never gone to Plan B before have you? Anyway, so if you drop Plan B, where&#8217;s the motivation going to be for him to change? To seek help. To end the kid abuse. Ok, I feel like 50 questions man now.

Why are you hesitating? Because you are afraid of losing him? I hope it&#8217;s not a failure issue bugging you. But C, think real hard. What are you losing? From what I understand, you have moments with him, but the majority of the time is not safe.

Ok, let&#8217;s back up to MB for a minute. How&#8217;s your Love Bank now? Anything left in it? How long ago was it when you remembered feeling like it had a positive balance. Hey, pot calling kettle black &#8211; I think even Steve would say it&#8217;s time.

I&#8217;m a planning ahead kind of guy. I think separation, him getting help, and the two of you dating before moving forward again is the right thing to do. If I could think of another way to do this, yeah, I&#8217;d toss it out there. But I think you&#8217;ve exhausted everything else.

It&#8217;s getting late in the day, so maybe you want to sleep on it. Again, you really don&#8217;t want him to not get the letter and show up unaware. Wait another day if you want. But even if he shows up tonight with flowers, dinner, snore patches, and an armload of kid videos, you know tomorrow&#8217;s gonna be hell. C, this IS the right thing to do. You&#8217;re only question now is whether it&#8217;s too late for today, but certainly needs to be done no later than tomorrow. And yes, I wish there was another way too &#8211; but I&#8217;m clueless on what that would be.

P

Crier, ((((((HUGS))))))

Being constantly on the down side of a YoYo string, with a person who likes to "walk the dog" is no way to live.

As Rafiki would say to Simba: IT IS TIME!

Be strong - remember BPD's are very good at "acting" remorseful. But he has a track record here; and when you're praying "or spelling" for an alien take over, the odds are not in his favor!

This will work out. I believe you can put some positive energy in your own path to turn things for the good. And he doesn't need you to rescue him - you can't help him go through what he has to go through. You can only get in Goddess's way!

Hi, Crier! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I just wanted to let you know that I think you're doing all the right things here! Stay strong, and love your kids like you've never loved them before! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Above all else, stay the course! Don't be intimidated, or tricked into an early reconciliation! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> That's MY fear about myself it if ever came down to it. Know what I mean? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{C}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{C}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{C}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Let me know if I can ever be of help to ya! Okay?
Take care of you and your family, and I'll keep the prayers coming your way!

God Bless!

HT

I sent it at about 2:30 today. He usually works until close to 4:30. If he wants clothing he will have to email me a list of things. I'm not answering the phone if it's a number that could be him.

The locks are done. 19yo and I went to Menards and would you believe the $25+ each locks were on clearance for $2!!! Yes the goddess is watching out for me. Good thing, I bought 6 altogether.

I put the truck in the garage and barred the overhead doors. I need to talk to the kids, the older ones know intuitively what's up, but we are going to have a nuts and bolts conversation.

I just really didn't want to hurt him. I never want to see anyone hurting, and certainly not someone that I really loved at one time. I did so much damage in my first marriage and caused so much pain. I never wanted to do anything like that again. I feel so sad and so terrible.

Yes, I know, that no matter what he came home saying and doing today, the crash tomorrow or the next day (if not before bedtime today) would be terrible. And the fear. I can't live with the fear anymore.

To be afraid to have my children in the same room when he is there is just not ok.

But I am still so very sad. I really really loved him, once upon a time.

Thanks for sticking with me today. I couldn't have done it without all your support and care. And I hope I never need to do the same for you!

Blessings to you all my friends,

C

Well, I got a reply. Here it is. Calm and respectful, and hurts like hell.

"Ok, then.

Thank you for doing it so respectfully.

I will need the truck key -please put this in yourself so it doesn't
get locked
in.
Clothes-everything in my closet plus my jacket from the bed.
misc shoes from by the stairs.
Two oil filters in the garage plus the full 2 gallon oil. just throw
this loose
in the box of the truck
personal items- shavers, shaving gel,qtips,floss,
toothbrush,toothpaste,
medicine, advil,deodorant, soap
truck payment book, date you need ins. check every month
checks for my account.
flashlight-green from garage work bench
a towel and washcloth
a copy of whatever harley books you have a sprare of.
anything else you think i might need.

I will come later tonight. Don't wait up. I'll leave the key in the
car.

I want you, too."

Can't stop crying, again.

C

C - the more I hear about your H's outbursts, the more I think he really does have BPD. I should know, I grew up with a mother who shows all the signs. Never formally diagnosed, since she had to be hospitalized to get her to see a doctor. My father always said she was schizophrenic. She was ok on the upswings, and ok when on medication. Unfortunately, as soon as she 'felt better' (ie, no longer 'depressed') the meds went out the window and back on the rollercoaster we went. I never dared to admit to fears, or unhappiness, because they would come back to haunt me. I never felt 'safe' because I never knew what was coming. I could have Jekyl and Hyde in the same day, often the same hour. And like your H, she never seemed to remember what had happened. As an only child with a mostly absentee father, I had no one to tell me I wasn't the one who was crazy. I tried once, to tell a teacher what was going on. My mother went in for a conference and convinced the teacher I was telling stories because my mother was the nicest sweetest person you would ever meet and how could anyone ever believe she would throw her child out of the house. The neighbors must have heard her screaming at me, but no one ever did anything. I was on muscle relaxants for chronic stomachaches for a year. The doctor said it was stress. At 10-12 years of age? My father tried to help, but he worked nights and weekends and holidays. He wasn't home much and often I only saw him 1-2 nights a week.

Please consider this - do you want your children to live like this?

If you want to talk, you have my email.

HUGS
M

{{{{{{C}}}}}

C, you&#8217;re doing the right thing. Yes, everyone knows you don&#8217;t want to hurt him. It&#8217;s never been a revenge, or trading blows thing with you. Even the negotiation was in good faith and fair. You know your account is owed much more.

I guess you&#8217;ve written so much about the ups and downs, that I didn&#8217;t expect any other response from him than the one you got. Calm, rational, sorry, hurt.

Yep, a long discussion with your children. An explanation. But also probably some stern rules about them not getting involved. Them never mentioning this to him. I think it&#8217;s very hard for any male to hear &#8220;this is why Mom&#8217;s doing this to you&#8221;, or &#8220;Mom says you have a problem&#8221;, from a small kid. Almost a nah-nah. I think you understand what I&#8217;m trying to say less than eloquently.

C, actually, if his emails tend to stay like this &#8211; short, efficient &#8211; then you can probably live without the intermediary. Let&#8217;s just play it day by day.

Yes, you knew the minute you hit the send key, that you were going to feel bad about doing this. Get your kids though. Hug them. Work through this evening. Hope that this will FINALLY be the BEGINNING of something for you and H. You might also want to make a list at some point of what you require from him for the Plan B to end. And stick to it. And not be caught in a weak moment.

Now, I&#8217;m ramblin&#8217;, and you know I never do that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Getting out of here in a few minutes, but will try to check back later this evening. Thinking of you though. Talked with wife at lunch a bit about your situation too. She&#8217;d have been gone a long, long time ago.

P

C- is there anywhere you and the kids can stay tonight?

I would still feel better if you weren't there when H gets there.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Marissa:
<strong>C- is there anywhere you and the kids can stay tonight?

I would still feel better if you weren't there when H gets there.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not really. We're kind of on a limited budget all of a sudden. But my gut feeling is that it won't be dangerous. I've never known him to act badly except in the heat of the moment. Not the type to cold-bloodedly hurt someone.

I talked to the big kids first. They had lost of questions. Mostly about what BPD is and how it manifests. We talked about the kinds of things he'll need to address. They asked what I meant by "no-contact" and "limited contact."

I told them they had permission to call 911 if they felt I or they were threatened, but that he would be coming to get things on occassion and that my car coming up the driveway is not a reason to call the sheriff.

I have no idea what is plan is for the night, or for long term. I put this off for so long, worrying about the SA and the past hx of going immediately to strippers and hookers when things were bad at home. I always felt I couldn't survive that again.

Now, I just think I can't worry about that. It's his issue. He'll need to decide if being married to me is worth staying sexually sober and addressing his other stuff. I'm sure just being alone in a hotel room tonight will be a problem.

He'll also need to address his alcohol use. In the past he drank in order to justify the sexual acting out. And he drank when he travelled. So being alone overnight is the condition under which the drinking and the sex occured. He's back in that place again. And I don't know if he can make it.

But it's not my problem. I just can't handle the fear and the worry any more. I'm letting go. It is in the hands of the goddess now. I have no idea what the future holds for any of us. I guess it's an adventure.

I'm sure this will hit me in waves. Right now, all I can think is how nice it is to be with my kids and not afraid of how he will treat any of us. It's peaceful.

C

hugs to you c

Checking in to let you know we are all fine. Don't know if H got his things last night, I put the truck down the hill in the big shed. Slept fairly well.

Called my D and our HPs to let them know. Otherwise, haven't talked to family or friends.

It's peaceful here. And as long as I don't think about "Once upon a time..." it doesn't hurt too bad.

There are not enough words in any language to than all of you for your support, concern, and prayers.

C

ps/ Kayla, it would be considered unethical to do a spell or a working to effect change in another person <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> It's considered control. Only ourselves, or with someone's specific request or permission. And then, only with the intention that it be for the greatest good of all AND harm none. Like MB, Wicca acts on the idea that we can only change us. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ August 20, 2002, 05:57 AM: Message edited by: crier ]</small>

crier-

Glad to know that, despite all the uncertainity and anxiety, the sun still rises in the east. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Good luck with your Plan B. And good luck getting down to the counter tops again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

HoFS

Hi C,

Thanks for checking in and letting us know things are ok. Was wondering.

P

Hi, C! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Been thinking of you lately, and hoping that things work out! I admire your courage, resolve, and tenacity. We all know you're doing the right things here, but that doesn't make it any easier, huh?

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{C}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{C}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Stay the course, love yourself, and love your kids. Hopefully, your H will have an opportunity to think things through, and make some changes.

Sending loads of prayers your way!

God Bless!

HT

<small>[ August 20, 2002, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: HurtTired ]</small>

Hey Sweetie,

Thanks for the email - would never have found you here. Hope others don't as well.

You have done the right thing. I know you know that. I also know that it wasn't/isn't easy, but it is intended for the best outcome, with or with out him. One of the best parts of my separation is not walking on eggshells all of the time. I can be me, and my kids can be them and we don't grate on anybody's nerves - and he doesn't grate on ours. No criticisms.

About the SA, well, we know about that don't we? Yes, it's the alcohol and the bad relationship times, and the "I thought it was over" justifications. We can't change it, we can't control it, and if he chooses it, then that is all he deserves.

Have you heard about Rick Chance, the millionaire here where I live, that was just murdered/robbed by two strippers? It isn't playing with a nice class of people. He has a choice and hopefully he will make the right one. You/We deserve better. They can change or they can go.

You are in my thoughts and prayers. I like the new name - it's you -- always the wit.

Don't question yourself. Clean your house,love your kids and turn off the computer for awhile, oh and get some groceries while you are it.

Hugs to you.
SW

Oh yeah - also meant to say - ha, ha you are a junior member. Newbie.

Take Care,
SW

Hey...

I just found this...didn't have time to read it all, skipped from the start to his reply.

C, I really, truly think this is what you needed to do. I know it hurts like he**, but there is no doubt in my mind that you are doing the right thing.

Sending you hugs, and if you don't mind, a few prayers as well...

Kathi

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kam6318:
<strong>Hey...

I just found this...didn't have time to read it all, skipped from the start to his reply.

C, I really, truly think this is what you needed to do. I know it hurts like he**, but there is no doubt in my mind that you are doing the right thing.

Sending you hugs, and if you don't mind, a few prayers as well...

Kathi</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey Kathi,

I'm glad you found me here. I linked it briefly from P's thread with my other login name. Do you know how hard it is to keep track of three identities??? But I edited out the link, I'm not sure how secure that name is either.

Yes, it was time. More than time. I've just been so grateful not to be afraid of his ...ugh..... everything. The boys have just clustered around me since he's been gone.

He's taken it better than I hoped. We've exchanged some emails about finances and where he'll be staying. They've been as safe and rational as the first one. He's concerned about staying accountable with the sexual stuff.

We'll see. I can't let that consume me. What he does is his choice. What happens, happens and I'll deal with it then.

I know he's hurting and I guess that's a good sign. We have a meeting planned for 9-14. Breakfast to talk, and if it seems safe we'll go to the RenFest that day. Depending on what he's done in counselling and on his own, we'll talk about limited contact after that. Just us. Bringing the kids back into the picture will be slow.

I think it's what I would reccomend to someone else.

Kathi, you've been a good friend. I think a lot about what you said to me long ago about letting go of the past and working in the present. I can't always do it, but it helps to think in those terms. Thanks for your support.

How'd you find me? Surfing?

C

Yeah, I keep telling myself that I am only going to follow a few threads/people, but then when I am avoiding something I don't want to do (hhhmm, like my job...), I surf around, so I did find you by accident. The trouble with surfing new threads is I invariably find a few new people I just have to check back on.

"My name is Kathi, and I am a MB addict.."

Oh well...could be worse, I 'spose.

I did pop over to the other thread tonight, and was glad to see you guys seem to have had some fun today <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . I am things seem to be peaceful at your place.

G'night...

Kathi

Hi Crier,

Been thinking about you and wondering how you and your young ones are holding up. Did they clean their rooms?

How is H and how is he communicating with you?

You are in my thoughts...

SW

Hellooooo....

Thanks for popping in. Here's my questions:

1. Today, being Saturday is more than a little scary for me with H out there on his own. He's very much a party on the weekend sort. I'm thinking I will call where he's staying at about 11pm tonight, to see if he is indeed there.

He's only about 10 minutes? 20? from MOA, party hang out of the young set and home of Hooters. (If you think Hooters is an ok place to be, then fine keep that to yourself, I don't need to hear it.)

2. We meet in 3 weeks. I want to have a list of bare minimun requirements for limited contact after that point. I'm looking for input and ideas.

3. Long term, and you can think about this and reply later, I need to make a list of bottom line requirements for the relationship continuing at all. LBers like the procrastinaton and the junk, meeting needs.

Ok, If I don't hear back from anyone with objections to verifiying whereabouts and a good reason not to, I will do that tonight. He better be there!!!

C

C- are you not in a true plan B? How will he react to you checking on him? If you need to for your own peace of mind, then do it.

Hugs
M

What does your S-Anon recovery program tell you?

Just because you enforced some limits around your house and he's suffering the consequences does not make you responsible for what he does or doesn't do when you can't monitor him.

Trust yourself. You don't have to check up on him to know if he messed up - it's like I told someone else about a week ago - he either offers the fruits of recovery or he doesn't. And he won't be concerned with trying to convince you he's changed. you will be able to tell because he doesn't try anymore - he just lives a good kind patient life (permanent alien take-over!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

P.S. and calling him after issuing a Plan B letter will only let him know EXACTLY where you are vulnerable and afraid - and BPD people play on where you are vulnerable and afraid.

Steel Magnolia time!

Hi Crier,

Sorry, I'm late, but, you know how it is. NO, it is not ok to do a spell on him. I was lurking being an old timer here and fell upon this. Not many Wiccans here, some, but not many. You know the rule. Three times gig? Karma?

Magick is not the answer, not in this case.

Blessed be.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MEDIC238:
<strong>Hi Crier,

Sorry, I'm late, but, you know how it is. NO, it is not ok to do a spell on him. I was lurking being an old timer here and fell upon this. Not many Wiccans here, some, but not many. You know the rule. Three times gig? Karma?

Magick is not the answer, not in this case.

Blessed be.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You must have misread something, I am never an advocate of using magick on anyone and have always spoken out against it. I only asked if I should call to verify whereabouts.

I rarely do spells, and only with the intention of for the greater good of all and to harm none.

So I gather you are either Wiccan or close to it? Tell me more, I'm fascinated!!

Oh, and I follow the ethical rule not because of fear of karma but more because I recognize the divine spark in me and in all of creation.

C

Ok, I'm pi**sed. My husband is not registered where he said he would be. Or at least the auto dialer cannot find him by last name. Now, it's quite possible that it's misspelled. Happens frequently because the letters sound alike. And they sound like other letters. But after 11pm, there's no one around who can help. My god, what if it was a real emergency???? What a f***ed up stupid system!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

He's supposedly been there since Thurs. so there's no excuse for not being in the system, unless he checked in under a different name? It must have to match the name on the cc??

Ooooohhhhh, I'm fuming.

Oh.... there's a difference in Plan B for infidelity and Plan B (which it really isn't for protection.... technically it's separate and date.) No contact is until you get help and show that you can and will make changes.

I know, I'm probably bending the rules, but if he's out so much as looking at women, then there is NO POINT in going any further. I WILL NOT endure that again. It's zero tolerance on the OW thing. So, accountability is a must.

I don't Kayla if I would know, he hid it very well for many years. And he continues to hide other things now, so I think he could pull off the partying thing. He is an amazing liar.

Well, I'm open to discussion on it anyway, even though I sound like a raving lunatic at the moment. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Night John Boy.....

C

Crier-

I miss a couple of days reading and start surfing and find you here! Yeow! Just want you to know I'm behind you and think you are a very brave person. I'll pray for you.

I was hoping you wouldn't call as you are separated and have no control over him. As difficult as it is at first, you may eventually discover that there is no point in worrying about his actions. What can you do if he is out with the college crew? If you do anything, does that contradict the plan you have set up for you two to follow??

He needs to start proving to you that he is going to meet your conditions. That will be discussed at your 9-14 meeting. Until then, I guess I would focus on you and your kids. You know, all the principles you taught HT.

I am pleased you are taking this stance for you, but most importantly for your kids. Good luck.

C- what if he did this deliberately to retaliate - knowing that you'd check up on him and get scared.

BPDs are always looking for the upper hand emotionally.

First week is not enough to be sufficiently humbled and realize he's got to clean his own inner vessel to the floorboards.

Think about this from the way he thinks about things. He doesn't have a real problem with his temper and his mouth - in his mind. His junk is valuable stuff to him. To him, you just overreact and get on his case when he should have the right to BE THE MAN.

He will go through a cycle of trying to get the control of the situation again. Most BPDs aren't concerned about "taking a relationship to over as much as they are about getting to be right.

Here's what I think:

He believes you're not in a financial position to take this to over yourself. So he's likely to "punish" you by hitting all the buttons you fear. He knows what they are. He's been through the addiction cycle before and he knows how you reacted. I think he knew you'd check up on him.

Do you see that you're stepping into a carefully laid trap?

Hi Kayla,

what if he did this deliberately to retaliate - knowing that you'd check up on him and get scared.

I've never known him to deliberately do anything. He doesn't think ahead and he doesn't plan. Which is generally the problem in the marriage, with his D,k with his job, with his vehicles, with finances, etc. It's an overriding pattern. I don' t think he has the ability to stage something like this. Plus it would require talking to someone, and he is terrified of that.

BPDs are always looking for the upper hand emotionally.

Yes, I would agree with that statement, but from the one other that I knew well (OM's) wife, and the reading that I've done, my impression has always been that they act irrationally in the emotion of the moment, rather than with planning and forethought. Princess Di, too. Not malicious, but terribly fearful, paranoid, and with a fun house mirror version of reality.

First week is not enough to be sufficiently humbled and realize he's got to clean his own inner vessel to the floorboards.

Oh, absolutely!!!! First month not long enough for that. No real biological change takes a long time.

Think about this from the way he thinks about things. He doesn't have a real problem with his temper and his mouth - in his mind. His junk is valuable stuff to him. To him, you just overreact and get on his case when he should have the right to BE THE MAN.

I think that was the case with w#1. But with w#2 not being the "submissive" type and insiting that he get help, I think some avenues were opened. Not enough, and as you say, not taking responsibility for the pain he caused. He still talks about her leaving the way someone else we know and love talks about his w leaving.

The programs that he got into 5 ro 6 years ago were for men who beat their wives, usually with something other than their hands. So his anger expressed by yelling was not really thought of as dangerous. And, looking back at the things he said when we met, which was about the same time, he really didn't take responsibility.

The program that we did together in 3/00 was different. It was a mixed group, and some had simply issues with demands. There was a lot of discussion among the group members about disrespect, demands and how those play into it all.

Also, the program focussed on recognizing that anger begins at the impatient/frustratetd stage and if you wait to control your temper until you are ready to throw the tv out the window, it's too late. The scale that we used called "Failure of Compassion" ranged from "hurt feelings" all the way to "death." The plan was to avoid the first and all the rest would follow.

It was after this that I began to see real change. And he has told me that this class was far more informative and helpful than anything he'd done before. Also, he was seeing more and more what his anger was costing him. His D for example. She was letting him know all the time that his past behavior was terrible, and she got on him for the things she heard that he did to the boys. Unfortunately he was also seeing that she was following in his footsteps, being a demanding, manipulative, disrespectful brat.

You guys have known me for a year or thereabouts, so you have only heard my stories of now. But I cannot begin to tell you how much worse it was before. The big things that now happen once a month were happening daily and frequently more than once a day.

He will go through a cycle of trying to get the control of the situation again. Most BPDs aren't concerned about "taking a relationship to over as much as they are about getting to be right.

Yes, I see this when he gets in that place. The last 2 weekends being perfect examples. Sometimes I wonder if he isn't dissociative more than anything else. I see two entirely separate personalites that have little recognition or memory of each other.

He believes you're not in a financial position to take this to over yourself. So he's likely to "punish" you by hitting all the buttons you fear. He knows what they are. He's been through the addiction cycle before and he knows how you reacted. I think he knew you'd check up on him.

It's possible, but under WI law he has far more to lose than I do. I own this property jointly with him. It's value is very high, close to if not more than a million. And it goes up with every passing day as Prescott pushes out in this direction. Our 33 acres are prime development potential and we've increased the value of the house significantly by adding.... oh, say..... a kitchen. I have no cash into it, it was a Giver decision on his part to have me on the title. In WI there are 2 ways that parties can be listed, one with limited rights of ownership and one with full. I have the full. I could make him sell this and walk away with half of what is really his. I've said repeatedly that if this marriage ends I wouldn't do that, I consider it unethical, UNLESS I find out he's been with OW again. Then all bets are off.

Do you see that you're stepping into a carefully laid trap?

It doesn't have that feel. Primarily because he hasn't shown the capability to do that. He's not conniving, not the type to strategize, and doesn't have the concentration capabilities of doing that.

I do. I could think and plan and carry out an elaborate scheme. And you know, Kayla, it just hit me that all those kinds of things are what Joe (xh) has done. Now THERE's someone who will, and has, laid out elaborate plans to punish and torture. He fits that description to a T.

Ok, so not being one to think I have all the answers, what do you think of this plan?

1. Do more research on BPD. We are only speculating since we don't have the assessments to make a diagnosis. But I'll read and compare and tell you what I think. I hope you'll give me your input.

2. Read more here and in my books about the conditions of separation for LBers and unmet EN's, it differs from a Plan B for infidelity.

3. I'll write to Dr. Harley on the private part of the forum and ask his advice. I'll repost is all here so you can see what he says.

4. If I don't hear anything from him by Monday afternoon, which is possible, I'll call the show and talk to him.

I try to think about how I would advise someone else, like say AAF's friend, in a similar situation. But as we all know, when it 's your own life it's much harder to think rationally. I guess that's why doctors and lawyers don't take on family and friends!

Thanks for listening. I hope you check back and give me your thoughts.

C

Hi BH <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I miss a couple of days reading and start surfing and find you here! Yeow! Just want you to know I'm behind you and think you are a very brave person. I'll pray for you.

Sorry, I posted the link at JFO briefly and then edited it out. You might not know that "Elektra" is also me................. long story.

What can you do if he is out with the college crew? If you do anything, does that contradict the plan you have set up for you two to follow??

Send off the D papers I have sitting in my desk filled out and ready to go since last winter, sell the diamond, and force him to sell the farm. Oh, yeah, there's plenty I could do. Let's not forget call his mother, daughter, and workplace. I think his boss and HR might be interested in knowing the real facts about why he left his last job.

I don't know if verifying whereabouts violates the plan. But it's something I'll ask Dr. H.

KA.. you wanna talk about retaliation?? I could and I would if I caught him with OW ever again.

He needs to start proving to you that he is going to meet your conditions.

Part of the conditions are accountabilty and no addiction related activities.

HT was on the other side of the issue. She insisted on the no contact for her safety and protection. For him to check on her made reconciliation further away. You have to look at it from a "what does this do to the LBnk" stance. For HT to contact his W was a withdrawal. She didn't feel safe, which is why she left. If she had contacted him, in a way that was not raging or threatening of course, would have been a deposit.

Separation and Plan B are strategies to protect the LBnk of the one who is being hurt. It's to keep that person from experiencing pain due to what their spouse is doing. In an A, it is a 100% of the time thing when the spouse is involved with a lover. In anger and control, it's intermittent. Which is why technically it's not a Plan B, it's separate and date. So that the time together can be enjoyable and the damage to the LBnk can be eliminated by keeping contact limited to short periods. It gives the one with the problem time to work on those issues and still have the opportunity to make deposits.

Once they have agreed to make changes, and shown that they have a plan and are working on it, the couple should be spending time together. Limited, in a way that is safe. It's not supposed to be punishment "until you grow up and get your act together." It's to keep the LBnk from plummeting further.

Does this make sense?

I am pleased you are taking this stance for you, but most importantly for your kids. Good luck.

The kids are really testing the limits. Carrying food downstairs, leaving their clothes and stuff around the house. Apparently they have forgotten that mom is perfectly capable of busting their little butts and exacting consequences.

The big kids are doing way more work than they did when he was here. Cuz like, I have no qualms about putting a saw, or a mower, or an outdoor job in the hands of a teenager. The thing that started it all last weekend was a discussion of (what else) the mowers. I said I would agree to putting some work into one of them and that 19yo could do it. He blew a gasket and said there was no way 19yo could handle this job. Replace a tire and battery???? The kid who changed out the engine on my Probe, a car which professional mechanics hate to deal with???? Please.

So yeah, kids are testing limits and working harder than they have in years. How many days til school starts????

How are YOU???

C

Kayla,

I just have to say again that I am floored with how what you are saying relates to Joe. OMG, the things he did when we were together that were soooooo planned out to be traps. To get the upper hand in every encounter with everyone around him. Employees, customers, vendors. He NEVER reacted in the emotion of the moment. Always planning what to say, what not to say, who to say it to.

Locking me out, changing the business accounts, trashing my credit rating on purpose, dragging out the D for YEARS, and now this thing with not selling or buying me out. And, he does it to the kids to.

He purposely went to all our friends about the time we were separating, and turned them against me. No, he didn't tell them how bad I was. Too smart for that. He told them how he tried everything to get me back, how much he loved me, how he would do anything, and how all he ever wanted was for me to be happy. (While he's making it next to impossible for me to afford to feed the kids) And these were all friends that we had because I went out of the way to be there for them. He never had time, always too busy working.

Oh!!! And the word games. Don't even get me started. I'm sooooo glad to be away from that!

They all bought it, hook, line, and sinker. Took him in, fed him, did things around the house for him, poor Joe'd him to pieces. My BEST FRIEND who saw all the things he did to me for years, even told me that he never did anything wrong. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> He went so far as to call my dad and tell him about my sexual abuse struggles. This was information that I purposely did not share with my dad's family, and he knew that.

Made sure all our employees and customers knew that I was mentally deranged. Which in effect put a stop to any chance that I would have of taking over the business.

And then, once it became clear that I wasn't coming back, he dropped them all. Doesn't call, too busy to do things, etc. He used them, to hurt me. Planned, and carried out to perfection.

When we were trying to sell our house, he would leave it completely trashed whenever someome came to look at it. When interested parties came to look at the business he did things to make buying it unattractive.

THAT man is a snake. Ooooohhhhh wait bad term, rat is better.

H is not capable of that kind of planning. I would have recognized it long ago after 15 or however many years it was with Joe.

C

C-

I don't know much about wiccan - I've already displayed some of my ignorance previously in one thread or another... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

However, I think there is a similar belief in good and evil as there is in white magic and black magic.

I believe there are forces at work that while your husband doesn't have it in him of himself to plot and plan - I believe he could easily be influenced by forces that are committed to your unhappiness.

I'd recommend being on-guard and I still would recommend not checking up on him. I have reached the point with my husband where I can tell by the shadow over his face if he is shooting straight with me or if he has done something that violates our POJA. I don't have to trust him on ANYTHING. My eyes and my heart tell me all I need to know. I believe you have the same gifts and abilities if you want them.

BTW, I'm not surprised that your first husband was BPD - there is something in this conflict that life has to teach you before BPD will leave. I've had my own repetitious nightmares (real life) to cure me of my door-matitis. And now, my husband jokes that he's glad to see the b! has awakened! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Here's what I posted to Dr. Harley in the private part of the forum:

Dear Dr. Harley,

As I posted to you on fonzee's thread at the EN Basic Concepts Board, I have recently separated from my husband due to the continuation of 5 years of abuse. It has been primarily verbal. In the early years the demands were extremely rigid and the disrespect cutting. The temper tantrums were sometimes daily when he didn't get his way, or when something I or my children did upset him.

There were a few occasions of physical abuse. Mostly directed towards the children and more along the lines of restraining them than of hitting, although he did hit two of them on occasion. He has never hit me, but he has restrained me, and once he shook me when he was very angry with something I said.

In March of 2000, we attended an anger mgt. class together in St. Paul and it was very helpful. He has told me that it helped him to recognize the feelings that lead up to losing his temper and to find ways to relax.

However, the demands and the disrespect still continue. I didn't realize how much I gave in and did what he insisted because I was afraid. As I mentioned to you at fonzee's thread, things really escalated when we returned from the Smart Marriages Conference and I took a zero tolerance stand on demands. He became ever more disrespectful and angry when I no longer acquiesced to the things he demanded and began asking for things I wanted in return for doing things for him.

Last weekend was especially frightening. The moods swings were drastic and rapid. And finally when he became verbally abusive and insulting of my son, I decided enough was enough. I changed the locks on Monday morning and sent him an email letting him know what I had done.

The letter followed the Plan B format:

1. I love you
2. I married you for life
3. I want to stay married to you
4. These things that you are doing are too painful for me to endure any longer
5. Until you get help for the anger and control issues, I do not want to see or speak with you

He took it very graciously (being on the apologetic upswing side of the abuse cycle) and is now in an extended stay hotel. On Wed. he met with a counselor who has agreed to work with him on these issues. He will be administering an MMPI, possibly speaking with me and a previous therapist, and has referred him to a men's group for anger issues.

I received email from my husband telling me that he is journaling daily, working through a workbook for anger mgt., and is re-reading all the Harley books. (He is quite familiar with your work intellectually, practically he's had difficulty implementing it) He is also keeping an expense journal for accountability.

Today, I was reading some of the newer material at this site and came upon the Q/A column on Domestic Violence. There are several things about GS's story that are frighteningly familiar, and to which no one has listened when I've tried to discuss them. The forgetfulness about past events, particularly important agreements and conversations, he has accused me and others of doing things to hurt him… extreme paranoia, and the distortion of past events. The forgetfulness, as you said to GS can be written off to being very self centered, but the other things have deeply concerned me for a long time.

Here then are my questions:

1. What if anything can I do to see that proper assessments are done in order to confirm or rule out an emotional or mental disorder? I believe he is willing to honor any requests I make and will go to his therapist with them.
2. My letter stated that I wanted to maintain no-contact until he took steps to address these things. Now that he is in counseling and seems to be serious about doing the work, is it ok to have limited contact, i.e. date?
3. What sorts of things should I watch for that would indicate either a regression or that the work he is doing is bearing fruit?
4. Email seems to be an emotionally safe method of communicating, is it advisable to keep in touch during this time?
5. Is it ok for me to hold him accountable for time, whereabouts, and money during this time we are apart?

Thanks, Dr. Harley for your time. I tried to think of how I would handle this with my own clients, but it's so much more difficult when the emotions are involved.

C

Hey Crier,

Yep, you're right, I misread something.

"Kayla, it would be considered unethical to do a spell or a working to effect change in another person It's considered control. Only ourselves, or with someone's specific request or permission. And then, only with the intention that it be for the greatest good of all AND harm none. Like MB, Wicca acts on the idea that we can only change us".

Must have been dislexic that night. I thought it was "would it be considered" Dopey me!!!

It's funny how I got into Wicca. My oldest son came back from Boston about two years ago with the book "Teen Witch". I freaked out, what is this crap!!! Then I sat in the tubby and read it and surprisingly it all made sense. I had believed in this for a long time and wasn't aware that it was in the Wiccan belief. I had come to find out both my sons had dabbled in candle magick and my FXW [first ex wife] is also a practicing witch.

I don't advertise my religion because of the stigma related to it. "Oh, you do magick, you bad". Know what I mean? Most people don't understand. I have worn a silver pentacle on a chain for the last two years and have been blessed many times over. Some who have seen it have the same reaction I did at first, where it is bad, the Devil's work. As you know it is not.

Wicca is not for everyone and this is not a commercial to convert.

Crier:
You seem to be viewing this period of no contact as for your husband's use -- so he can get his head together, figure out what's wrong, and begin work on fixing it. That's true, but there is also something for you to do in this time: get perspective. As you yourself said, it is harder for the counsellor to counsel herself because she is so close to the situation. Use this time to really take a step back and view the whole picture. To do this, I think you need NO CONTACT for a specific period of time. That means no emails. Sure, you stay safer that way, but you lose your objectivity. And no calling to check up on him. If you need to confirm that he's remaining sober, find some way that does not involve contact between the two of you.
Crier, I'm troubled by what appears to be your desire to soften your resolve. I really think that doing that will put you in a position of weakness with respect to your husband, which is just the chink in your armor he's looking for and just what you don't need right now. Give him and yourself some more time before you initiate the email/phone contact.

Here's the response from Dr. Harley. And BTW, we worked with him extensively via email a couple of years ago, so he does know quite a bit of the history besides what is here.
-----
cerri: I will try to answer your questions in the order they were asked:

quote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What if anything can I do to see that proper assessments are done in order to confirm or rule out an emotional or mental disorder? I believe he is willing to honor any requests I make and will go to his therapist with them.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A professional anger management program will conduct an extensive evaluation for emotional disorders, such as a paranoid disorder (now called "Delusional Disorder"), but the results will not usually indicate whether or not the disorder might be due to a
head injury or other form of brain damage. It's my opinion after having treated so many of these individuals that the disorder often has organic origins, but most clinics do not test for origins. If you would like your husband to undergo an MRI, to try to
detect a brain injury, you might have to pay for it out of pocket, since insurance is unlikely to cover it.

quote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My letter stated that I wanted to maintain no-contact until he took steps to address these things. Now that he is in counseling and seems to be serious about doing the work, is it ok to have limited contact, i.e. date?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Contact with your husband while he is in treatment for anger management is usually desirable because he needs to be able to practice controlling his temper under frustrating conditions. It will also help you establish how much control your husband is
developing under these conditions.

quote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What sorts of things should I watch for that would indicate either a regression or that the work he is doing is bearing fruit?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The conditions that trigger anger are usually easy to identify. Not getting his way when he makes demands seems to be one of them. I would practice negotiating with the Policy of Joint Agreement to create an alternative to either his giving in to your
demands, or you giving in to his demands. Remember, the goal of negotiation is for for both of you to be enthusiastic about your decision. If he can negotiate with you without getting angry, I'd say that he is making good progress.

quote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Email seems to be an emotionally safe method of communicating, is it advisable to keep in touch during this time?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely!

[QUOTE]Is it ok for me to hold him accountable for time, whereabouts, and money during this time we are apart?[QUOTE]

As long as it's not in the form of a demand. From what you have been writing, it seems that you have quite a bit of control over this man. Be careful not to fall into the trap of making demands yourself as you are trying to learn how to negotiate to an
enthusiastic agreement. In fact, one of the conditions that cause him to be angry might be your own demands of him. If that's the case, simply learn to avoid subjecting him to your demands.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Kayla,

I'm sending you an email too but here's my thoughts on this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I don't know much about wiccan - I've already displayed some of my ignorance previously in one thread or another... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Read girl, read!!!!! JK, really there's so much I don't know. Most of my circle spent years in one magickal system or another, studied mythology, and were on the fringes before taking training. I, OTOH was way into New Age (which most wiccans think of as fluff.... ) and dropped into Wicca by one of those coincidences that don't really exist.

However, I think there is a similar belief in good and evil as there is in white magic and black magic.

Well, I don't know. I certainly believe in good and evil intentions. I would categorize them as harming none v the desire to control. Most wiccans don't believe in a "devil" although we do believe that in the spirit realm there are spirits who are malicious and out to cause trouble, just like there are here in the physical realm. I think though it's more of a belief that all entities have that mixture. The capability to do good or to harm. Certainly I don't see the divine as all soft and fluffy.

I believe there are forces at work that while your husband doesn't have it in him of himself to plot and plan - I believe he could easily be influenced by forces that are committed to your unhappiness.

Ok, now you're gonna have to choose. Either BPD or demonic influence. You don't get both LOL. But Kayla, it's interesting you brought this up. I was having a similar thought along different lines yesterday afternoon. I was thinking how GREATFUL I am that this is happening.

After I worked through the trauma of my childhood abuse, I accepted it. It's who I am and where I come from. I met many women who couldn't move beyond the pain and the anger and the bitterness. Their lives were still held captive to their abusers. I decided I wasn't going to go there. That I would make my peace with the abuse and USE it. I found that I became more able to sympathize and empathize with the childhood hurts of those I came into contact with. It deepened my ability to be strong and caring. It helped me to realize that no matter what I would survive.

I could say the same about most of my life experiences. I grew up in poverty. My parents once moved out of a house in the middle of the night because they couldn't pay the rent and needed to get away. We lived with my grandparents after that. When my mom left my dad, she supported 3 kids on less than $300 a month. That showed me that I CAN survive. Yeah, it's scary now with the kids, and it's one of the reasons I didn't leave sooner, but I know we'll be ok.

So, yesterday I was at the beach thinking about all of this and where I am, and it hit me. I could never do the work that I want to do without this experience. My very best friend was horribly verbally abused by her H (much worse than here) for years. I saw it, but I had no conceptual understanding of the fear she felt. Now I do.

I had an intellectual idea that Joe was hurt, and OM and his wife and family by my A. But being on the other side of it, I KNOW it for real now. I can see both sides and I can have compassion that I didn't before.

I'm not saying that was H did is in anyway ok (I wouldn't say that about my childhood abuse either) but I am saying that sometimes we and the goddess/god allow these things to happen because of the lessons to be learned. No one said that life on earth was supposed to be fun or fair. It's a place to learn and the lessons are hard. I've known for many years that I take on harder lessons than some. When the hurting passes I can see them as gifts.

You are right about this behavior recurring in my relationships (although Joe is way scarier). And I think one of the many things I need to learn is to protect myself and my kids. It comes slowly, but I'm working on it!!!

So, did evil influences prod H to do the things he does? I don't know. But I do know that I will be stronger, more caring, more compassionate, and wiser for having been here.

I'd recommend being on-guard and I still would recommend not checking up on him. I have reached the point with my husband where I can tell by the shadow over his face if he is shooting straight with me or if he has done something that violates our POJA. I don't have to trust him on ANYTHING. My eyes and my heart tell me all I need to know. I believe you have the same gifts and abilities if you want them.

You are lucky. I am sooooo gullible. Yes, these are gifts that can be developed. I "see" energy around people and objects, but I still am sooooo gullible. I guess I need to practice READING that energy!!

I've had my own repetitious nightmares (real life) to cure me of my door-matitis. And now, my husband jokes that he's glad to see the b! has awakened!

LOL, yes it is rather a shock when we wake up and learn to say "No!"

Take a look at your email in an hour or so.

C

Hi C,

Looks like I missed a bunch of posts over the weekend. We had a busy one. But back to you. I read the Harley response. Sorta chuckled a bit when I read the &#8220;you seem to have quite a bit of control over this man.&#8221; I guess some of this could be construed as control, but in reality, what I see you doing is setting the conditions for the relationship to continue. And the basic one I see you setting at this point is Protection. It&#8217;s not about demanding that your needs be met. So I guess I disagree with his statement a bit. Requiring Protection before moving forward is not &#8220;controlling&#8221;.

As far as communication goes, I think you have to stay in contact somewhat. Not to the point of working hard to satisfy Conversation EN, but certainly to keep some kind of connection. Is this counter to the &#8220;you get help, and I can&#8217;t talk to you until then?&#8221; Ok, so he&#8217;s getting help. But I think the connection needs to remain, to keep him from sliding off into the deep end. Justifying cheating. Yes, we both know it&#8217;s wrong, but a vulnerable person can convince themselves it&#8217;s ok to head down that road. Vulnerable, and lonely, and weak.

C, I think you&#8217;re heading down the path that Steve recommended at one time &#8211; right? Wasn&#8217;t it to separate for Protection, husband get help with his anger problem, and then date when it seemed safe enough to do so? It sounds like Willard is suggesting the same now.

As for the whereabouts issue, there&#8217;s certainly not a clear answer on that. What would make you feel better? Obviously calling him and knowing where he is on Sat nights. OTOH, you also know that phone calls he made while traveling before weren&#8217;t any guarantee that nothing was going on. Sorry to bring that up, but I suspect it has crossed your mind at least once over the weekend. I guess my non-MB advice would be to do what works best for you. If him still being accountable for his time and fidelity is something you really need to keep the door open, then work it.

Oh, and one final thing, then I gotta get to work. I read something you wrote about the house, and that if there&#8217;s a divorce, that you won&#8217;t take proceeds, even though you have a legal right. C, I know you are a person with high morals, but I also think you&#8217;re going over the line a bit here. After all of the things you have told me that the two of you have done to that house, improvements both of you made, etc., I am wondering what would not be fair if you took a share of the proceeds. Yep. We wouldn&#8217;t advocate a stay-at-home Mom to say &#8220;he had the salaried job, I ran the house and raised the kids. So I shouldn&#8217;t get any part of the stock portfolio.&#8221; I also don&#8217;t buy the &#8220;but they were my kids&#8221; argument either. He married the package, not just the Mom. I think there is a commitment there to care for the entire package. And, as well, if that condition is met, the entire package should care for him too.

I seem to have gotten twisted off again. Gotta go get some work done.

P

C53...An interesting name BTW....

You seem to be viewing this period of no contact as for your husband's use -- so he can get his head together, figure out what's wrong, and begin work on fixing it.

Noooooo, not exactly. Close, but not quite. When I asked him (nicely of course with locked doors to back me up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) it was for ONE reason. TO STOP THE HURTING.

The conditions I placed on him were to get help and to make real changes. If he chose not to do those things, then the #1 goal is still met. The abuse has stopped.

So yes, it is hard to separate the 2. BUT, if he were still dinking around not making time to put effort into finding a C, making excuses for not following through, then I would be adamant about "don't call until you do."

However, unlike Plan B for infidelity, the day he was gone the abuse ended. With infidelity it goes on until the A is ended and no contact is agreed to.

To draw a somewhat flawed comparsion, agreeing to get help is comparable to ending the A and setting no contact in motion. BUT... the condtions for recovery STILL need to be not only set forth, but met. That's where we are.

With infidelity, I'm pretty adamant that the WS not come home until he/she shows good effort in that area. A signed recovery agreement and some hard work put in first.

With H, I'm just as adamant. He will not be coming back here until he can show repeatedly that he can control his temper all the time, that he can and will learn to meet needs, that he will eliminate the other LBers, and most importantly to me, that we can create a lifestyle that we both enjoy at the same time. I am NOT going back to the way it was.

That's true, but there is also something for you to do in this time: get perspective.

I'm not sure I've ever heard or seen that in MB stuff before!! LOL I always thought it was to protect the LBnk from further trashing.

As you yourself said, it is harder for the counsellor to counsel herself because she is so close to the situation. Use this time to really take a step back and view the whole picture.

Yes, it is so true. But as you see, Dr. Harley said much of what I was thinking intuitively.

I'm assuming you are asking that I reevaluate my commitment to the M. Look at the options and perhaps opt out entirely. That's not going to happen on my end. The one who will end this M, is H. And he will do that by not abiding by the conditions I've set or by simply saying that he's had enough. Five years of intense MB work have changed my views on this. I said this marriage was for life and I meant it. I refuse to be the target of further abuse or to allow that to happen to the kids, but I'll stick with the process as Harley lays it out.

Crier, I'm troubled by what appears to be your desire to soften your resolve. I really think that doing that will put you in a position of weakness with respect to your husband, which is just the chink in your armor he's looking for and just what you don't need right now. Give him and yourself some more time before you initiate the email/phone contact.

No. I've been there. Set limits and then backed off. I can't do it again. The course work I've been doing and the MB conference made me take a good look at how I was enabling what was going on. He needs to get help and he needs to make real changes. I fully expect that to take a long time. But until he can prove that he is safe and capable of doing what needs to be done, that time is at a distance.

I've dealt with whining begging pleading demanding children for 21 years, I know how to say no.

C

Crier:

I can see Harley's point about someone with your husband's weeknesses needing your support. I didn't really consider that fully.

I won’t cop to asking you to reevaluate your commitment to your marriage. You are committed, and I respect that. I WILL cop to something that may be just as bad: my fundamental distrust of your husband. But you have expressed convincing commitment to your boundaries. I trust you in that, and so I will drop the hardline no contact talk.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by curious53:
<strong>Crier:

I can see Harley's point about someone with your husband's weeknesses needing your support. I didn't really consider that fully.

I won’t cop to asking you to reevaluate your commitment to your marriage. You are committed, and I respect that. I WILL cop to something that may be just as bad: my fundamental distrust of your husband. But you have expressed convincing commitment to your boundaries. I trust you in that, and so I will drop the hardline no contact talk.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I think I have the same fundamental distrust, and he WILL need to prove himself. Convincingly, repeatedly, long term before he gets to come back here. Gee, anyone know how to run a 3 point hitch snowblower on a tractor?? Maybe the 4wd will get me through. LOL

Yesterday I was looking in the shed, I need to get my tractor out for the Mabon hayride/full moon celebration. It's behind the roundbaler, the big tractor and something else. I started to panic and then I thought, "No, I've seen this done, it cannot POSSIBLY be THAT difficult, I'll be fine." And I will.

Gotta go, we're off to the beach.

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by crier:
<strong> Gee, anyone know how to run a 3 point hitch snowblower on a tractor??</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, oh, oh, <HoFS doing his Horshack impression> <hand waving> Me, me, me. That is fun. Particularly if you get some stones caught up with the snow! Of course, it helps to have a cab on the tractor and to have the cab all nice and toasty before starting! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Yesterday I was looking in the shed, I need to get my tractor out for the Mabon hayride/full moon celebration. It's behind the roundbaler, the big tractor and something else. I started to panic and then I thought, "No, I've seen this done, it cannot POSSIBLY be THAT difficult, I'll be fine." And I will.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pleaaaaaaaaase, not difficult at all. It will be more difficult getting everything back in place. However, I assume that C- will have an improved organization scheme?? Maybe even an auction planned! I'm hoping none of them have flats???

We've got counseling in less than 48 hrs. Not sure what's next. I guess I can't hold back. No excuses.

Question, does a father wanting to stick around to see his youngest child get on the school bus for the first time seem like such a weird concept? What if the father wasn't told that the mother would instead be taking the child to school via car instead even though the father made his intentions known over a week before school started? Kind of gives you an idea of the discussions we had over the weekend. That and whether or not an affair(s) has an impact on the children. You can probably guess where I fell on that issue.

HoFS

<small>[ August 26, 2002, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: HofFenceSitter ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by HofFenceSitter:
Oh, oh, oh, <HoFS doing his Horshack impression> <hand waving> Me, me, me. That is fun. Particularly if you get some stones caught up with the snow! Of course, it helps to have a cab on the tractor and to have the cab all nice and toasty before starting! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, stop begging. I know you just want the chance to play with the bobcat <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pleaaaaaaaaase, not difficult at all. It will be more difficult getting everything back in place. However, I assume that C- will have an improved organization scheme?? Maybe even an auction planned! I'm hoping none of them have flats???</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think we're ok on the tires. And the shed is 66x99 I think there's enough room for everything without having an auction. Except for the mowers. They're annoying.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We've got counseling in less than 48 hrs. Not sure what's next. I guess I can't hold back. No excuses.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good luck. Got a list ready? Want help? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What if the father wasn't told that the mother would instead be taking the child to school via car instead even though the father made his intentions known over a week before school started? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, in my little skewed version of the world, said father would have mentioned that he wanted to see baby child get on the bus and asked wife how she felt about that. And then she would have said that she was thinking about driving that day, and how did he feel about THAT? And then they would have discussed options (repsectfully) until they found one they both liked a lot. Say, dad went along on the ride in the car and took a picture of child at the door of his classroom. And they lived happily ever after.

Back to work. Had my hour and 36 minutes at the beach.

C

UPDATE

Well first of all, I drank waaaay too much tea, and then came home to the adventures of being single in the wilds of Wisconsin!

First. H went to see his parents yesterday. I was a bit uneasy about how this would go. They are the "my son can do no wrong," sort. As evidenced by his behavior as an adult you can guess that there were no consequences for his violent behavior as a child and teenager. It was always someone else's fault.

And then, when he had the A with a co-worker and kicked out W of 8 years and baby daughter (who is literally a miracle child... w was not supposed to be able to have kids) in order for OW to move in, they patted him on the head and said,"there there dear, whatever makes you happy." And when OW didn't like them living so close by, they packed up left their home and moved to town.

H has never shared with them any of his hx with women, with abusing s/o's, or with all the other things. He's always, "fine." Or, someone else is making his life miserable. When he gets himself into trouble, he goes running to them, and they do the pat on the head thing.

So, maybe you can see why this was a bit unnerving for me. But, I took the position that I'm working hard at adopting. HE needs to do the work to fix this mess. And if he's not willing to change old patterns then it is his choice to let the marriage end. But it will not continue the way it's been.

So, today I asked him how it went, did he have a good time, how are his mom and dad, what did he tell them. He wrote back and said he told them "lots of stuff." And being the shy and submissive sort, I said, "like what?" Well, actually I was more specific but you get the idea.

OMG, I nearly fell over, here's part of the reply:

"I told them that I have been expressing my feelings in destructive
ways,
specifically in yelling at the kids. I told them that you are uhhappy
about
that and are insisting it change in order to continue. I also told
them that
you are annoyed by such things as the diesel fuel situation, and that I
want to
stop the annoying. I told them ther were other women before we were
married,
and about the tpless bars. I told them that I stopped that wrong
behavior over
two years ago. "

I have rarely been so amazed in my life. Amazed and proud. They of course, don't understand. They think that if you're not getting along you just grin and bear it. Which is fine. That's there generation and their way of viewing life and the world. I'm ok with that. But I AM thrilled that he was so honest with them. It must have been very scary.

So, with Dr. H's permission, I had dinner with H tonight. It was nice. Casual, friendly. Kept it light. I asked about his appt. with the C today, and the testing. We had some laughs at some of the q's that are on the MMPI. I asked about the C and how he thought this guy compares to others.

H said he is far more thorough, and that he asks difficult q's that are painful to answer. I like that. He said that when the test results are back they will make a plan based on that and the other assessments. I like that too.

He said the C asked if he had stayed sober, sexually and otherwise this week, and that he could answer yes truthfully. He also said that it was a struggle at times, that he gets the urge to go out. I told him that I am pleased that he was able to do the one day at a time, and that he might want to think about strategies for the long term.

I did say that I understand this is a process and that there will be mistakes. Loss of temper will send me home and we will begin again as he learns what triggers it and how to control his behavior. BUT that there is ZERO TOLERANCE for other women. ANY behaviors in that way will end the marriage, right there. It will be over, there will be no second chance. I will not go back to that place. EVER. He said he understood.

He told me he went to MOA on Sat. night, but that he was home by 9. I have all the access to all the financial statements for every account we have. If he spent a dime there, I'll know it.

I asked if MOA wasn't pushing the boundaries a little.... it's a SA thing, and I suppose other addictions as well...... to see how far you can go without falling off. And he agreed that it was, and that he probably won't do that again. Good idea, I'm thinking.

So, all in all, it was good. It seems he is serious about doing some scary stuff. It will be a long road though. I might need to take Horshack/Hoffs up on that offer to plow the snow.

Now, ya wanna hear the funny story about the struggles of being all alone? If not, stop reading, cuz I'm still wide awake from the tea <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Ok, I get home about 11. I need to take the trash to the end of the driveway, truck comes before 6am tomorrow and last Monday was a little chaotic to say the least and it didn't get out. Now, we're not talking 20 - 30 feet to the end of the driveway, we're talking half a mile!!

Two of those rolley mini-dumpsters, a 30 gallon trash can, and a recycling container. All quite full and very heavy. I've been cleaning.

11yo is still up and I ask him to help. I go to find the keys to the truck. Oh oh. Where the HECK did I leave them??? I had them yesterday, we unloaded the brush. Run up and down the stairs at least 4 times. Check the office, check the bathroom counter, check the bedroom, check all my pockets. No keys.

Finally I check the truck. There they are!!! I never leave keys in vehicles. It was a pet peeve of mine with xh that he always did.

Go to start truck. Click. Click. Dead. It seems someone <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> left something on and the battery is dead. It's now close to midnight.

Have son go get keys to bobcat. Bobcat is at the back end of the 99' shed, in the dark, in the night. Finally get key in, and thank the goddess, it starts. Son and I load it. The bucket is full, and the recycling stuff is balanced precariously, but I'm NOT making 2 trips past the neighbors at midnight with the bobcat!!!!!

I can't see over the cans, so I raise the bucket way up. And then when I hit a rut here and there, I have coke cans and other recycling falling on my head. In the dark, in the night.

After what seems like hours I get to the end of the driveway, unload the stuff and realize that I'm missing a whole bag of recycling. I have visions of spending the next 3 hours picking up soda cans and cardboard off the gravel. In the dark, in the night.

Turn around and head for home. I look up at the roof and the light and I see an odd shape. What can that be???? LOL It's the recycling bag, it bounced onto the roof of the cab. Take it off, spin around, toss it into the bin.

Park the bobcat in the shed. Go about 50' back down the driveway to pick up bag of dropped trash, walk up the hill (just under 1/4 mile) picking up coke cans as I go. Take them to the garage. Call the dog, put him in. Lock the door.

Mission accomplished. I CAN do this. It just takes a little more work.

Now, about that battery............................................ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Hmmmmm.... still awake.......Maybe I can find a book to read for a while.....

C

<small>[ August 27, 2002, 02:11 AM: Message edited by: crier ]</small>

crier-

You have been doing a lot of cleaning. What is it with you and these other ladies having bobcats and the best I can do is a 9.5 hp riding lawnmower?

So who's been listening to CD's in the truck? Maybe there's a party going on in the shed that mom doesn't know about?

Amazing to hear about H. Are you going to visit him everyday? I am a little disappointed that he told his folks that his 'bad' behavior stopped two years ago. Maybe the women did but what about the other 'behavior' problems?

Sleepy yet? I wish you continued success on the journey and H with his journey. I know there is a ways to go. Maybe there will be a good harvest afterall. Can't collect too early though before it is fully mature. In the mean time, I'd better go explain to my snow removal job to my family!

HoFS

Hi Hoffs

You have been doing a lot of cleaning.

We've only just beguuuuuunnnnnn....
To Cleeeeeeeeeeeannnnn....
White rags and lyyyyyyyyy ...sol
A kiss for luck and we're on ooooour waaayyy......

What is it with you and these other ladies having bobcats and the best I can do is a 9.5 hp riding lawnmower?

I have 6 tractors here too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So who's been listening to CD's in the truck? Maybe there's a party going on in the shed that mom doesn't know about?

I wish it were so. But no, the truck was parked by the house. Where mom left it after the brush was unloaded. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Amazing to hear about H. Are you going to visit him everyday?

No. I'm doing this with a heavy mixture of MB and intuition and knowing him for 5 years. Every day, and he would think life is pretty cool. He needs some fear and some angst and some pain and loneliness if he's going to keep working. So I'm thinking still no phone contact for the most part, and visit.....hmmmmmm..... I dunno, even twice a week seems a lot. We'll see.

Also, although I'm not with C53 that this is a time to evaluate what I want to do about the M i.e. end it..... I am pretty clear that this is a time to do some family healing. So. I'm not going to be dashing off and leaving the kids to their own decvices while H gets me all to himself. That was part of the problem in the past, and I don't want to start that pattern again. He'll have to learn to share.

AND I need the peace of not worrying about him and his problems, etc. Too much time together, at least now, and he's going to put me back in that role of driving his recovery. Not my job. He wants me, he does the work. On his own.

I am a little disappointed that he told his folks that his 'bad' behavior stopped two years ago. Maybe the women did but what about the other 'behavior' problems?

Oh. You mean you don't know his style of writing and speaking like I do??? LOL That's what he meant. The women. Not the other stuff. He told them he's getting help now. They still don't get it.

In the mean time, I'd better go explain to my snow removal job to my family!

Uhhhhmmmmmmm wanna give me some tips on the portable battery jumpy charger thingy? AKA the whosamagolly that makes the dead vehicles go from click to vroom?

C

<small>[ August 27, 2002, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: crier ]</small>

Hi Crier,

You know, you're a pretty savvy MB'er for a newbie! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I didn't write sooner because things have been hectic at work, but I just wanted to say how great your meeting and findings with husband went. "Guarded optimistic" at this point, I guess. Some other things you said that I absolutely agree with: at some point in the future, your children are going to need to be reintroduced to your outings with husband. You're right, you don't want to turn this into living apart with frequent one-on-one dating. With occasional SF, he'd probably decides he likes the living apart. I think a once per week frequency now though would probably be right. Yes, he's gonna cheat if he wants to, but at about once per week I think it makes it a lot easier for him not to.

No words of wisdom. You know, when wife and I were separated, I think she would have never ever given me the time of day again if I hadn't worked on my relationship with D. Worked on my anger so that relationship could grow. At the time, even though I felt good about things with D getting better, what I really wanted was a wife. I didn't realize it but what wife wanted was a better Father for D. Anyway, aside from my habit of rambling, I guess what I'm wondering is whether at some point the work shifts from improving relationship with you to improving relationship with children. I think a long time ago I told you that I thought you would never be happy in your marriage until your husband met your FC EN. Yep, Protection is certainly required too, and a necessary first step. But if he's smart, at some point he is going to have to realize that things will never work out long-term if he pursues a relationship with just you.

Gotta run and grill some salmon. Wife took D to dance lessons. Hey, did I tell you the good news? Our TV in the family room quit. Have a quiet room to sit, read, talk now. Ideal setting for full-attention RT's! JK! Now, if only the TV in the bedroom were to go out.... Hmmmmm.

BTW, saw the neighbor yesterday while getting the mail and the trash cans. Talked for a little bit. She's nice, but nothing that moves me in any way. Guess it felt good to talk with her a while and feel that way about it. Maybe I'm passed that HT stage of going nutso if an attractive woman says hi!

Gotta run.

P

Hi P,

You know, you're a pretty savvy MB'er for a newbie!

It's that whole reincarnation thing..... I'm able to recall things I new from a previous life <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I didn't write sooner because things have been hectic at work

You don't mean that the new organization is expecting you to take time away from MB to work, do you? Time to send out resumes!!!

"Guarded optimistic" at this point, I guess.

I would say guarded optimistic about his willingness to make real changes. I don't know if I would go so far as to say as much about it actually happening. Time will tell. He has a long way to go. I told him my story about my bobcat adventure, and he told me later he had a difficult time staying calm.

I appreciate the honesty, and I told him so. But wow, it's scary to think that the urge to control is so strong that an incident which is over and done, no one and nothing were hurt, and that I handled just fine, would be upsetting. I'm a bit taken aback. And yes, I told him that. Email. It's safe...... so far. But delete is just a click away.

With occasional SF, he'd probably decides he likes the living apart.

Except I have all the toys here!!! LOL But yeah, I see what you're saying.

I think a once per week frequency now though would probably be right. Yes, he's gonna cheat if he wants to, but at about once per week I think it makes it a lot easier for him not to.

I hope so. In the short term I'm not so worried. Right now he's in the sad and sorry stage. The I want to make it up to you stage. The I'll show you that I can be good stage. (To paraphrase Rabbit talking about Tigger <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

But my intuition tells me that as this goes into the future, he's going to get impatient and irritated with not getting what he wants. For example, the stairs are scheduled to ship 9/25 and the opening is not ready. So I could see that when the downswing comes, which it will, that he would then be most likely to start calling numbers out of the Pioneer Press. Pretty easy to do when you live in a hotel and have no phone records to account for.

Anyway, aside from my habit of rambling,

LOL...... Yeah, we don't know anyone else with that habit do we???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I guess what I'm wondering is whether at some point the work shifts from improving relationship with you to improving relationship with children. I think a long time ago I told you that I thought you would never be happy in your marriage until your husband met your FC EN.

You know, P, I'm glad you brought that up. It's been biting at the back of my brain and seeing you talk about it helps solidify those thoughts. You're right. I wouldn't be happy about going back to 2 separate family units / H and me / kids and me. There has to be a unified family thing going on here. Before he comes back.

Yep, Protection is certainly required too, and a necessary first step. But if he's smart, at some point he is going to have to realize that things will never work out long-term if he pursues a relationship with just you.

My position now is that I'm willing to date. As long as the protection remains in place. I expect there will be failures, that's only natural. And then I can go home and he can re work his plan, talk to his C, and work with the men's group. But as for getting back together, he would have to show that he could meet needs.... all of them...... consistently long term. I would have to be in love and be able to trust him.

Our TV in the family room quit. Have a quiet room to sit, read, talk now. Ideal setting for full-attention RT's! JK! Now, if only the TV in the bedroom were to go out.... Hmmmmm.

How about offering to move bedroom tv to family room? Very sweetly and innocently with nothing but D's happiness and familyb viewing time as your motivation?

BTW, saw the neighbor yesterday while getting the mail and the trash cans. Talked for a little bit. She's nice, but nothing that moves me in any way. Guess it felt good to talk with her a while and feel that way about it. Maybe I'm passed that HT stage of going nutso if an attractive woman says hi!

Did you toss her any doggie treats <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ? I'm assuming she doesn't need to take the trash out with a bobcat?
It is a good sign of progress and perhaps a LBnk that's getting fed?

C

Gotta run.

P[/QB][/QUOTE]

With much heavy negotiation on what to do if thngs go wrong, I've accepted H's invitation to spend the night and go to the fair tomorrow.

We've agreed that either of us can take a time out if we feel that emotions are getting too high, OR if I feel frightened. The plan is for 45 minutes, no stomping off, no swearing, no OP.

If he doesn't honor my need for a TA.. should I need one... I can end the date then and there. We are driving separately to the fair so I'll have my vehicle and can go home.

So, anyway. I'm scared already. He's been depressed for 2 days, and is having struggles with the insurance and his counselling.

Seems that he didn't investigate fully before choosing a C, and now has one that is not covered long term. Could have. All he needed to do was check with our insurance plan. But no. That was too much work and he would have had to talk to someone. Am I sounding frustrated and irritated?

It seems that they are behind schedule at work too, so he's having a hard time dealing with that. When I talk to him it's like talking to the dark side of Eyore. Definitely not attractive.

AND he says that he's beginning to like living alone with nothing to worry about. ..... While I handle the trash, the truck, and the dead bunny. Not to mention all the other aspects of a place this size.

Ok, I'm feeling used and overwhelmed. And hopeless. Probably it's just the fallout from the bunny dying. It's hitting everyone pretty hard here. And H was not unsympathetic, but he made some inane comment about the rabbit and.... oh never mind. It was irritating. Let's just leave it at that.

So, I guess I'm saying not a good recipe for an overnight/all day date. Sounds rather depressing to me.

Ok, so writing helps to clarify. I'll send an email that says I'm afraid, of what and why.

C <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Hugs to you C. Sorry to hear about the bunny. I can guess at the inanity...

I've met Eeyore on a bad day - in fact I think I lived with him for about 9 months straight. Not conducive to a date, I agree, but I know you were looking forward to going to the fair, so try not to let H get to you too much.

Had managed to block out that this was a 3 day weekend until Thursday. Not sure I'm looking forward to it either, but we'll see.

Hoping for an alien invasion for you!

H is having trouble with our ins. and the counselling. The C that he met with whom he really liked, wants to see him twice a week. Which I think is good. But because of the ins mess he only has one covered session left. The next one is on Monday, it will have been 2 weeks.

He's not being very proactive about getting it straightened out. What a shock.

Meanwhile, the C called and is concerned about depression, wants him to go on meds. I can see it getting worse.

His emails and his conversation are really like Eyore having a bad day with PMS symptoms. It's annoying. All of it. The not gettting the C stuff in order, whining about his job (I said empathized with his feelings and said I thought he should talk about it with his C, as a spouse I didn't have suggestions.) The putdowns and hopelessness about himself.

Other things too. Little things, but they add up to a bigger picture that I'm really irritated with.

Ok, so yeah, I'm getting to the question <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I figure my choices are
1. To be honest about my fears and how I feel. But I don't know how without sounding like I'm slamming him.

2. Go back to no contact until he gets the C stuff figured out. He's not, not seeing someone, but after Monday's visit, we're back in la la land of not knowing what to do.

I guess the bottom line is that over the last couple of days contact has become gradually more and more unpleasant. This morning's whiney poor me email was enough to make me want to block him from sending me more.

Ok, well, I'm rambling. Tell me what you think.

C

crier-

I identify with both Rabbit and Eyore! Imagine that combination! Maybe that's one reason my W tired of me. The glass was always half empty. Heck, I should have realized that the glass was just twice as large as it needed to be!

Think back to the reason(s) you 'locked' your H out. Don't you think that the pattern of not being able to help himself out of a problem and blaming others (whining to you?) is part of the reason you went to your Plan B? It was more than just the anger and putting down you and your children. I think your H needs to know that this behavior is crossing the line. Otherwise, why should he tried to stop it? He needs to know that his attitude scares you and hurts you. While this attitude may not make you feel like curling up into a safe little ball, to you, this is hurting you. He needs to know that you can offer advice (duh) and can empathize with his problems but he has to learn how to deal with bad days at work, etc. and not make it a lifechoice to bring others down with him when things are not going his way.

Geesh, I'm rambling. You're good at this stuff. It sounds like you need to tell him that if this behavior that makes you feel bad doesn't change, there will be consequences, like no-contact, until he can demonstrate changes (like getting the insurance mess straightened out).

Make any sense?

HoFS

<small>[ September 04, 2002, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: HofFenceSitter ]</small>

Hey Hoffs,

I identify with both Rabbit and Eyore! Imagine that combination!

Would that be a blue/orange striped, bouncing, down in the dumps donkey? Whew! That's enough to scare a teenager!!

Think back to the reason(s) you 'locked' your H out. Don't you think that the pattern of not being able to help himself out of a problem and blaming others (whining to you?) is part of the reason you went to your Plan B?

Oh heavens yes!! But it's not Plan B... it's S&D <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

It was more than just the anger and putting down you and your children. I think your H needs to know that this behavior is crossing the line. Otherwise, why should he tried to stop it? He needs to know that his attitude scares you and hurts you.

Yes I know. But I don't have the words. I feel so bad because I know he's afraid and struggling and thinking he's never going to get where he needs to be. And then I think if I come along and say ...welll this, this, and this are really irritating me, that it's like kicking someone when they're down.

But I can't NOT say something. Because it will continue to erode any willingness I have to do this. All I could think of on my way over to school for my meeting, was that I just want to chuck it all and run away somewhere. I don't want to play counsellor. I want him to get help and then practice his new skills when he's with me.

He needs to know that you can offer advice (duh) and can empathize with his problems

Oh NO!!! I tried the offer advice thing and got my hand slapped for that from everyone around me. SH, you guys, H.... huh uh. No advice coming out of this mouth to him.
Empathize? I don't even know that I can do that. Oh, yeah. I can say the words. But hearing someone whine about the same stuff over and over and refusing to do anything to address the problems is NOT something I have any sympathy for.

I got 4 emails. One was so down it was scary. I was ready to call the suicide hotline. 2 were about my stuff going on today, upbeat, positive, encouraging. The last one was that he is changing C's midstream and starting over with one that our ins covers (according to him) for sure.

I see the mood swings and the acting out in the moment without seeing what he's doing. What I think he needs for his job stuff, and maybe for his life stuff, is a good coach. Like the ones who write the books I read for my coursework.

I DON'T WANT TO FIX THIS. IT'S NOT MY JOB!!!

C/frustrated <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by crier:
<strong>Hey Hoffs,

I identify with both Rabbit and Eyore! Imagine that combination!

Would that be a blue/orange striped, bouncing, down in the dumps donkey? Whew! That's enough to scare a teenager!!

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh wait!!! You said RABBIT ane Eyore. Whew. THAt is a sad thought. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Hey, that's pretty much a decscription of my 2 h's. The first was R, the second E. I want ..... hmmm ...... there is no cartoon figure that comes close. THAT's my problem!!!

C

Hi Crier.

Sorry to hear about your situation, separation is difficult but in many ways it has been peaceful for me also. It seems that we have much in common. My marriage is in the S&D phase also, although it really isn't going very well.

There was much betrayal in my marriage that involved many OW's and several other classic SA issues. One thing that I am very much struggling with right now is that H wants to pretend that all is well and we can just sweep it all under the rug and pretend it didn't happen. He is getting some counseling on his own and attending some SA meetings, (although he is doing this to pacify me) and he is adamant about keeping that all private to him. He has answered all of my questions regarding his activities, but now he expects that I just trust him to do his thing. Well, obviously at this point there is no trust. On my side there is recently alot of resentment which is new to me. Tell me, why is that just coming up now? I have been hurt, I've been angry, but the resentment is new. I found out six months ago so why am I just feeling this now? Is it because he is trying to go on as if it never happened?

Another difficulty I am having is that my children are not at all close to H (he is their step-father). For reconciliation one (of the many) changes that must happen is that we need to be more integrated as a family. Not him and his v me and mine. That is how the old marriage was and if there is to be a "new marriage" then this is one of my must-haves. I don't know how to get there. He doesn't much care for them, and they are not at all close to him. How can I foster that? When we were going to a MC and this came up I discussed how he will not even tuck my kids in at night. If his daughter is there, he will tuck her in and then mine but if it is just my kids then only I tuck them. (BTW, he has one half-time D, I have 3 full-time kids -- all 12 and under). The MC said that this was controlling on my part because I should not expect him to say goodnight to my kids, but I should go find him and tell him to go say goodnight. To me this is absurd because me telling him to do so seems much more controlling to me than expecting him to do so after 4 years. After all, he "remembers" when his D is there. Besides that, how to I cultivate a healthy relationship between them or do I not even cross that bridge until he has a healthy relationship with me.

There are many control issues. Communication issues. Needs issues. One might wonder why I choose to fix this marriage at all. I want the man that I dated back. When we dated H was very attentive, affectionate, he communicated and he was loyal. That all changed immediately following the wedding and he has become a very controlling, distant, WS.

Any advice on where I go from here?

Thanks,
PasDeDeux

Oh - P.S. Since I'm a newbie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> can you tell me what an RT is? I've read enough to understand it's meaning - just not it's translation - I know I have lots of them though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Hi Crier,

Well, I don&#8217;t think you can be his coach or counselor either. I remember Jennifer telling me that &#8220;you cannot teach if there&#8217;s not a student in the room&#8221;. I think at best, all we can do with our spouse is get to the point of discussion of MB philosophies, program, etc. Hey, did I tell you that over the weekend, wife and I talked about our first (conventional) counselor. Someone wife knows is going through marriage counseling too, and the gist of the conversation was that wife didn&#8217;t believe the conventional program that we did could be effective in restoring a marriage. Not like MB&#8217;ers, which addressed an entirely different part of the marriage &#8211; not solely conflict resolution or communication.

Ok, so back to your question. So, do you think anti-depressants would help your husband deal with this? Isn&#8217;t it wild how life last week was carefree, with no ranch stuff to have to worry about. And life this week is depressing? Likely he enjoyed the dating this past weekend too, and is now staring at empty walls again. And work&#8217;s not any fun. Oops, I guess maybe this is sounding like his e-mail! But I guess I&#8217;m just saying that I could understand where he&#8217;s coming from.

But you have to say something, or he&#8217;s going to drag you down with him. But obviously, it needs to be done in a constructive manner, so that it doesn&#8217;t come across as kicking him when he&#8217;s down. Can&#8217;t tell him that you&#8217;ve already got four kids to deal with, and don&#8217;t need another one to mother!

C, is the insurance reimbursement really an issue? I mean, if he really likes the C that he&#8217;s seeing, and there&#8217;s a better chance of success with him, would you be able to afford him staying on that program. I know two households probably put a damper on finances, just don&#8217;t know the extent.

I know you cannot fix things for him. But maybe you could suggest what needs to be done. Insurance, counselor, etc. Provide some clarity for a depressed person, but explain to him that you need him to be responsible and follow through on things. (yeah, this sounds a bit like a DJ, but I know you can say it correctly). I guess the only other thing would be to reinforce how nice the weekend was, how you enjoyed spending time with him, but that you need him to follow through on his Plans, on his work, on recovery of the marriage. That these are not things you can do for him.

C, is this a typically pattern? Or is this just a short-term dip? My friend Cerri is always telling me that there will be dips in the road.

P

Hi P,

Hey, did I tell you that over the weekend, wife and I talked about our first (conventional) counselor. Someone wife knows is going through marriage counseling too, and the gist of the conversation was that wife didn&#8217;t believe the conventional program that we did could be effective in restoring a marriage. Not like MB&#8217;ers, which addressed an entirely different part of the marriage &#8211; not solely conflict resolution or communication.

She SAID that???? About MB?????? Whoa. (And I know a good coach she could send her friends too when they get discouraged with the conventional C <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Ok, so back to your question. So, do you think anti-depressants would help your husband deal with this?

I don't know. I've never seen him on meds at all. Maybe. I want to know what other things the MMPI shows, before we jump into that. It has to be a plan taking the whole picture into account, not just pieced together.

Isn&#8217;t it wild how life last week was carefree, with no ranch stuff to have to worry about. And life this week is depressing?

Well, yeah. And what's scarier, is that he doesn't remember that he said that about liking being away from home. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Likely he enjoyed the dating this past weekend too, and is now staring at empty walls again. And work&#8217;s not any fun. Oops, I guess maybe this is sounding like his e-mail! But I guess I&#8217;m just saying that I could understand where he&#8217;s coming from.

You sound rational. Here's the exchange. Tell me if I'm seeing ghosts that aren't there:

H: "I think I would like it best if we meet around 8,
> and do it somewhere where we
> can snack. I would suggest Perkins in Hastings.
> HWYFAT?
> I am frustrated with work. Apparently, Mike has
> made deals about what some of
> our people would do before the next release of
> software can be released. These
> things are not done, so software is not ready to
> release. So I have instruments
> ready to start-up and no software. I couldn't have
> expedited these things
> getting done, because I didn't know about his deals.
> Mike likes to be able to
> say we are waiting on software, but this time it is
> backfiring. I am going to
> get dinged for being late if we don't finish these
> by Oct 17. Mike will get his
> bonus when the product releases next year. I want
> to quit.
> You have meetings? How wonderful!!!! Are they
> PC's????"

______

C:"I have a 9 am meeting with K S at the HS. And
a 1 pm meeting/interview with John Ellis... from
Spencer Institute.

I'm sorry you feel so icky about your job and the
politics. It sounds like you're really frustrated. I
wonder if this isn't something that Balke could help
you work through? I have lots of ideas that would be
appropriate for a client, but not for a spouse.

8 is fine. Perkins in Hastings, do I know where that
is?

xop"

----

H:"Right. See, I told you I would forget about your appointment with
Spencer
Ellis.
The key word is cope. How do I cope with this situation at work? I
need my
list of appropriate coping behaviors. Right now I am so frustrated I
can't even
remember one of them. I doubt Balke would be interested. It's just
another
symptom of a person with deep emotional problems.
Hope your meeting with S goes well.
Yes you know where Perkins is. Go to Emily's and turn around. You
should be
able to smell the garbage of Perkins from there."

______

Can&#8217;t tell him that you&#8217;ve already got four kids to deal with, and don&#8217;t need another one to mother!

You read my mind, didn't you????? Stop that!

C, is the insurance reimbursement really an issue? I mean, if he really likes the C that he&#8217;s seeing, and there&#8217;s a better chance of success with him, would you be able to afford him staying on that program. I know two households probably put a damper on finances, just don&#8217;t know the extent.

Well the C, who wants to see him twice a week is $110 a pop. And the group that he wants him to see is $125 each individual visit with the psychologist. They want you to do about 6 of those. And then it's like $65. each group session. I can 't remember if that's once or twice a week. So even if it's once, it could potentially be almost $300 a week, after the individual sessions. More before that.

So, yeah, with the added expense of housing, it would be difficult. His c/s is pretty hefty, so that takes a chunk already. Not that I'm complaining. I had a deadbeat dad, so I am very pleased that he always pays in full on time.

But maybe you could suggest what needs to be done. Insurance, counselor, etc. Provide some clarity for a depressed person, but explain to him that you need him to be responsible and follow through on things.

Yeah, I know. What I really need to say is how afraid I am that we'll just be stuck in this going nowhere pattern. I can't do that forever. And that whining about things is very unattractive. If you don't like the way things are at work, then find a way to react differently or to complain constructively. But don't give me the same sob story about it being everyone else's fault day after day. I can't handle that.

C, is this a typically pattern?

If you look this up in the encyclopedia of patterns you will see his photo front and center.

My friend Cerri is always telling me that there will be dips in the road.

Did she tell you they'd be standing in your path waving their arms and whining??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />