crier-

Glad to know that, despite all the uncertainity and anxiety, the sun still rises in the east. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Good luck with your Plan B. And good luck getting down to the counter tops again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

HoFS

Hi C,

Thanks for checking in and letting us know things are ok. Was wondering.

P

Hi, C! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Been thinking of you lately, and hoping that things work out! I admire your courage, resolve, and tenacity. We all know you're doing the right things here, but that doesn't make it any easier, huh?

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{C}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{C}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Stay the course, love yourself, and love your kids. Hopefully, your H will have an opportunity to think things through, and make some changes.

Sending loads of prayers your way!

God Bless!

HT

<small>[ August 20, 2002, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: HurtTired ]</small>

Hey Sweetie,

Thanks for the email - would never have found you here. Hope others don't as well.

You have done the right thing. I know you know that. I also know that it wasn't/isn't easy, but it is intended for the best outcome, with or with out him. One of the best parts of my separation is not walking on eggshells all of the time. I can be me, and my kids can be them and we don't grate on anybody's nerves - and he doesn't grate on ours. No criticisms.

About the SA, well, we know about that don't we? Yes, it's the alcohol and the bad relationship times, and the "I thought it was over" justifications. We can't change it, we can't control it, and if he chooses it, then that is all he deserves.

Have you heard about Rick Chance, the millionaire here where I live, that was just murdered/robbed by two strippers? It isn't playing with a nice class of people. He has a choice and hopefully he will make the right one. You/We deserve better. They can change or they can go.

You are in my thoughts and prayers. I like the new name - it's you -- always the wit.

Don't question yourself. Clean your house,love your kids and turn off the computer for awhile, oh and get some groceries while you are it.

Hugs to you.
SW

Oh yeah - also meant to say - ha, ha you are a junior member. Newbie.

Take Care,
SW

Hey...

I just found this...didn't have time to read it all, skipped from the start to his reply.

C, I really, truly think this is what you needed to do. I know it hurts like he**, but there is no doubt in my mind that you are doing the right thing.

Sending you hugs, and if you don't mind, a few prayers as well...

Kathi

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kam6318:
<strong>Hey...

I just found this...didn't have time to read it all, skipped from the start to his reply.

C, I really, truly think this is what you needed to do. I know it hurts like he**, but there is no doubt in my mind that you are doing the right thing.

Sending you hugs, and if you don't mind, a few prayers as well...

Kathi</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey Kathi,

I'm glad you found me here. I linked it briefly from P's thread with my other login name. Do you know how hard it is to keep track of three identities??? But I edited out the link, I'm not sure how secure that name is either.

Yes, it was time. More than time. I've just been so grateful not to be afraid of his ...ugh..... everything. The boys have just clustered around me since he's been gone.

He's taken it better than I hoped. We've exchanged some emails about finances and where he'll be staying. They've been as safe and rational as the first one. He's concerned about staying accountable with the sexual stuff.

We'll see. I can't let that consume me. What he does is his choice. What happens, happens and I'll deal with it then.

I know he's hurting and I guess that's a good sign. We have a meeting planned for 9-14. Breakfast to talk, and if it seems safe we'll go to the RenFest that day. Depending on what he's done in counselling and on his own, we'll talk about limited contact after that. Just us. Bringing the kids back into the picture will be slow.

I think it's what I would reccomend to someone else.

Kathi, you've been a good friend. I think a lot about what you said to me long ago about letting go of the past and working in the present. I can't always do it, but it helps to think in those terms. Thanks for your support.

How'd you find me? Surfing?

C

Yeah, I keep telling myself that I am only going to follow a few threads/people, but then when I am avoiding something I don't want to do (hhhmm, like my job...), I surf around, so I did find you by accident. The trouble with surfing new threads is I invariably find a few new people I just have to check back on.

"My name is Kathi, and I am a MB addict.."

Oh well...could be worse, I 'spose.

I did pop over to the other thread tonight, and was glad to see you guys seem to have had some fun today <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . I am things seem to be peaceful at your place.

G'night...

Kathi

Hi Crier,

Been thinking about you and wondering how you and your young ones are holding up. Did they clean their rooms?

How is H and how is he communicating with you?

You are in my thoughts...

SW

Hellooooo....

Thanks for popping in. Here's my questions:

1. Today, being Saturday is more than a little scary for me with H out there on his own. He's very much a party on the weekend sort. I'm thinking I will call where he's staying at about 11pm tonight, to see if he is indeed there.

He's only about 10 minutes? 20? from MOA, party hang out of the young set and home of Hooters. (If you think Hooters is an ok place to be, then fine keep that to yourself, I don't need to hear it.)

2. We meet in 3 weeks. I want to have a list of bare minimun requirements for limited contact after that point. I'm looking for input and ideas.

3. Long term, and you can think about this and reply later, I need to make a list of bottom line requirements for the relationship continuing at all. LBers like the procrastinaton and the junk, meeting needs.

Ok, If I don't hear back from anyone with objections to verifiying whereabouts and a good reason not to, I will do that tonight. He better be there!!!

C

C- are you not in a true plan B? How will he react to you checking on him? If you need to for your own peace of mind, then do it.

Hugs
M

What does your S-Anon recovery program tell you?

Just because you enforced some limits around your house and he's suffering the consequences does not make you responsible for what he does or doesn't do when you can't monitor him.

Trust yourself. You don't have to check up on him to know if he messed up - it's like I told someone else about a week ago - he either offers the fruits of recovery or he doesn't. And he won't be concerned with trying to convince you he's changed. you will be able to tell because he doesn't try anymore - he just lives a good kind patient life (permanent alien take-over!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

P.S. and calling him after issuing a Plan B letter will only let him know EXACTLY where you are vulnerable and afraid - and BPD people play on where you are vulnerable and afraid.

Steel Magnolia time!

Hi Crier,

Sorry, I'm late, but, you know how it is. NO, it is not ok to do a spell on him. I was lurking being an old timer here and fell upon this. Not many Wiccans here, some, but not many. You know the rule. Three times gig? Karma?

Magick is not the answer, not in this case.

Blessed be.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MEDIC238:
<strong>Hi Crier,

Sorry, I'm late, but, you know how it is. NO, it is not ok to do a spell on him. I was lurking being an old timer here and fell upon this. Not many Wiccans here, some, but not many. You know the rule. Three times gig? Karma?

Magick is not the answer, not in this case.

Blessed be.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You must have misread something, I am never an advocate of using magick on anyone and have always spoken out against it. I only asked if I should call to verify whereabouts.

I rarely do spells, and only with the intention of for the greater good of all and to harm none.

So I gather you are either Wiccan or close to it? Tell me more, I'm fascinated!!

Oh, and I follow the ethical rule not because of fear of karma but more because I recognize the divine spark in me and in all of creation.

C

Ok, I'm pi**sed. My husband is not registered where he said he would be. Or at least the auto dialer cannot find him by last name. Now, it's quite possible that it's misspelled. Happens frequently because the letters sound alike. And they sound like other letters. But after 11pm, there's no one around who can help. My god, what if it was a real emergency???? What a f***ed up stupid system!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

He's supposedly been there since Thurs. so there's no excuse for not being in the system, unless he checked in under a different name? It must have to match the name on the cc??

Ooooohhhhh, I'm fuming.

Oh.... there's a difference in Plan B for infidelity and Plan B (which it really isn't for protection.... technically it's separate and date.) No contact is until you get help and show that you can and will make changes.

I know, I'm probably bending the rules, but if he's out so much as looking at women, then there is NO POINT in going any further. I WILL NOT endure that again. It's zero tolerance on the OW thing. So, accountability is a must.

I don't Kayla if I would know, he hid it very well for many years. And he continues to hide other things now, so I think he could pull off the partying thing. He is an amazing liar.

Well, I'm open to discussion on it anyway, even though I sound like a raving lunatic at the moment. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Night John Boy.....

C

Crier-

I miss a couple of days reading and start surfing and find you here! Yeow! Just want you to know I'm behind you and think you are a very brave person. I'll pray for you.

I was hoping you wouldn't call as you are separated and have no control over him. As difficult as it is at first, you may eventually discover that there is no point in worrying about his actions. What can you do if he is out with the college crew? If you do anything, does that contradict the plan you have set up for you two to follow??

He needs to start proving to you that he is going to meet your conditions. That will be discussed at your 9-14 meeting. Until then, I guess I would focus on you and your kids. You know, all the principles you taught HT.

I am pleased you are taking this stance for you, but most importantly for your kids. Good luck.

C- what if he did this deliberately to retaliate - knowing that you'd check up on him and get scared.

BPDs are always looking for the upper hand emotionally.

First week is not enough to be sufficiently humbled and realize he's got to clean his own inner vessel to the floorboards.

Think about this from the way he thinks about things. He doesn't have a real problem with his temper and his mouth - in his mind. His junk is valuable stuff to him. To him, you just overreact and get on his case when he should have the right to BE THE MAN.

He will go through a cycle of trying to get the control of the situation again. Most BPDs aren't concerned about "taking a relationship to over as much as they are about getting to be right.

Here's what I think:

He believes you're not in a financial position to take this to over yourself. So he's likely to "punish" you by hitting all the buttons you fear. He knows what they are. He's been through the addiction cycle before and he knows how you reacted. I think he knew you'd check up on him.

Do you see that you're stepping into a carefully laid trap?

Hi Kayla,

what if he did this deliberately to retaliate - knowing that you'd check up on him and get scared.

I've never known him to deliberately do anything. He doesn't think ahead and he doesn't plan. Which is generally the problem in the marriage, with his D,k with his job, with his vehicles, with finances, etc. It's an overriding pattern. I don' t think he has the ability to stage something like this. Plus it would require talking to someone, and he is terrified of that.

BPDs are always looking for the upper hand emotionally.

Yes, I would agree with that statement, but from the one other that I knew well (OM's) wife, and the reading that I've done, my impression has always been that they act irrationally in the emotion of the moment, rather than with planning and forethought. Princess Di, too. Not malicious, but terribly fearful, paranoid, and with a fun house mirror version of reality.

First week is not enough to be sufficiently humbled and realize he's got to clean his own inner vessel to the floorboards.

Oh, absolutely!!!! First month not long enough for that. No real biological change takes a long time.

Think about this from the way he thinks about things. He doesn't have a real problem with his temper and his mouth - in his mind. His junk is valuable stuff to him. To him, you just overreact and get on his case when he should have the right to BE THE MAN.

I think that was the case with w#1. But with w#2 not being the "submissive" type and insiting that he get help, I think some avenues were opened. Not enough, and as you say, not taking responsibility for the pain he caused. He still talks about her leaving the way someone else we know and love talks about his w leaving.

The programs that he got into 5 ro 6 years ago were for men who beat their wives, usually with something other than their hands. So his anger expressed by yelling was not really thought of as dangerous. And, looking back at the things he said when we met, which was about the same time, he really didn't take responsibility.

The program that we did together in 3/00 was different. It was a mixed group, and some had simply issues with demands. There was a lot of discussion among the group members about disrespect, demands and how those play into it all.

Also, the program focussed on recognizing that anger begins at the impatient/frustratetd stage and if you wait to control your temper until you are ready to throw the tv out the window, it's too late. The scale that we used called "Failure of Compassion" ranged from "hurt feelings" all the way to "death." The plan was to avoid the first and all the rest would follow.

It was after this that I began to see real change. And he has told me that this class was far more informative and helpful than anything he'd done before. Also, he was seeing more and more what his anger was costing him. His D for example. She was letting him know all the time that his past behavior was terrible, and she got on him for the things she heard that he did to the boys. Unfortunately he was also seeing that she was following in his footsteps, being a demanding, manipulative, disrespectful brat.

You guys have known me for a year or thereabouts, so you have only heard my stories of now. But I cannot begin to tell you how much worse it was before. The big things that now happen once a month were happening daily and frequently more than once a day.

He will go through a cycle of trying to get the control of the situation again. Most BPDs aren't concerned about "taking a relationship to over as much as they are about getting to be right.

Yes, I see this when he gets in that place. The last 2 weekends being perfect examples. Sometimes I wonder if he isn't dissociative more than anything else. I see two entirely separate personalites that have little recognition or memory of each other.

He believes you're not in a financial position to take this to over yourself. So he's likely to "punish" you by hitting all the buttons you fear. He knows what they are. He's been through the addiction cycle before and he knows how you reacted. I think he knew you'd check up on him.

It's possible, but under WI law he has far more to lose than I do. I own this property jointly with him. It's value is very high, close to if not more than a million. And it goes up with every passing day as Prescott pushes out in this direction. Our 33 acres are prime development potential and we've increased the value of the house significantly by adding.... oh, say..... a kitchen. I have no cash into it, it was a Giver decision on his part to have me on the title. In WI there are 2 ways that parties can be listed, one with limited rights of ownership and one with full. I have the full. I could make him sell this and walk away with half of what is really his. I've said repeatedly that if this marriage ends I wouldn't do that, I consider it unethical, UNLESS I find out he's been with OW again. Then all bets are off.

Do you see that you're stepping into a carefully laid trap?

It doesn't have that feel. Primarily because he hasn't shown the capability to do that. He's not conniving, not the type to strategize, and doesn't have the concentration capabilities of doing that.

I do. I could think and plan and carry out an elaborate scheme. And you know, Kayla, it just hit me that all those kinds of things are what Joe (xh) has done. Now THERE's someone who will, and has, laid out elaborate plans to punish and torture. He fits that description to a T.

Ok, so not being one to think I have all the answers, what do you think of this plan?

1. Do more research on BPD. We are only speculating since we don't have the assessments to make a diagnosis. But I'll read and compare and tell you what I think. I hope you'll give me your input.

2. Read more here and in my books about the conditions of separation for LBers and unmet EN's, it differs from a Plan B for infidelity.

3. I'll write to Dr. Harley on the private part of the forum and ask his advice. I'll repost is all here so you can see what he says.

4. If I don't hear anything from him by Monday afternoon, which is possible, I'll call the show and talk to him.

I try to think about how I would advise someone else, like say AAF's friend, in a similar situation. But as we all know, when it 's your own life it's much harder to think rationally. I guess that's why doctors and lawyers don't take on family and friends!

Thanks for listening. I hope you check back and give me your thoughts.

C

Hi BH <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I miss a couple of days reading and start surfing and find you here! Yeow! Just want you to know I'm behind you and think you are a very brave person. I'll pray for you.

Sorry, I posted the link at JFO briefly and then edited it out. You might not know that "Elektra" is also me................. long story.

What can you do if he is out with the college crew? If you do anything, does that contradict the plan you have set up for you two to follow??

Send off the D papers I have sitting in my desk filled out and ready to go since last winter, sell the diamond, and force him to sell the farm. Oh, yeah, there's plenty I could do. Let's not forget call his mother, daughter, and workplace. I think his boss and HR might be interested in knowing the real facts about why he left his last job.

I don't know if verifying whereabouts violates the plan. But it's something I'll ask Dr. H.

KA.. you wanna talk about retaliation?? I could and I would if I caught him with OW ever again.

He needs to start proving to you that he is going to meet your conditions.

Part of the conditions are accountabilty and no addiction related activities.

HT was on the other side of the issue. She insisted on the no contact for her safety and protection. For him to check on her made reconciliation further away. You have to look at it from a "what does this do to the LBnk" stance. For HT to contact his W was a withdrawal. She didn't feel safe, which is why she left. If she had contacted him, in a way that was not raging or threatening of course, would have been a deposit.

Separation and Plan B are strategies to protect the LBnk of the one who is being hurt. It's to keep that person from experiencing pain due to what their spouse is doing. In an A, it is a 100% of the time thing when the spouse is involved with a lover. In anger and control, it's intermittent. Which is why technically it's not a Plan B, it's separate and date. So that the time together can be enjoyable and the damage to the LBnk can be eliminated by keeping contact limited to short periods. It gives the one with the problem time to work on those issues and still have the opportunity to make deposits.

Once they have agreed to make changes, and shown that they have a plan and are working on it, the couple should be spending time together. Limited, in a way that is safe. It's not supposed to be punishment "until you grow up and get your act together." It's to keep the LBnk from plummeting further.

Does this make sense?

I am pleased you are taking this stance for you, but most importantly for your kids. Good luck.

The kids are really testing the limits. Carrying food downstairs, leaving their clothes and stuff around the house. Apparently they have forgotten that mom is perfectly capable of busting their little butts and exacting consequences.

The big kids are doing way more work than they did when he was here. Cuz like, I have no qualms about putting a saw, or a mower, or an outdoor job in the hands of a teenager. The thing that started it all last weekend was a discussion of (what else) the mowers. I said I would agree to putting some work into one of them and that 19yo could do it. He blew a gasket and said there was no way 19yo could handle this job. Replace a tire and battery???? The kid who changed out the engine on my Probe, a car which professional mechanics hate to deal with???? Please.

So yeah, kids are testing limits and working harder than they have in years. How many days til school starts????

How are YOU???

C