Kayla,

I just have to say again that I am floored with how what you are saying relates to Joe. OMG, the things he did when we were together that were soooooo planned out to be traps. To get the upper hand in every encounter with everyone around him. Employees, customers, vendors. He NEVER reacted in the emotion of the moment. Always planning what to say, what not to say, who to say it to.

Locking me out, changing the business accounts, trashing my credit rating on purpose, dragging out the D for YEARS, and now this thing with not selling or buying me out. And, he does it to the kids to.

He purposely went to all our friends about the time we were separating, and turned them against me. No, he didn't tell them how bad I was. Too smart for that. He told them how he tried everything to get me back, how much he loved me, how he would do anything, and how all he ever wanted was for me to be happy. (While he's making it next to impossible for me to afford to feed the kids) And these were all friends that we had because I went out of the way to be there for them. He never had time, always too busy working.

Oh!!! And the word games. Don't even get me started. I'm sooooo glad to be away from that!

They all bought it, hook, line, and sinker. Took him in, fed him, did things around the house for him, poor Joe'd him to pieces. My BEST FRIEND who saw all the things he did to me for years, even told me that he never did anything wrong. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> He went so far as to call my dad and tell him about my sexual abuse struggles. This was information that I purposely did not share with my dad's family, and he knew that.

Made sure all our employees and customers knew that I was mentally deranged. Which in effect put a stop to any chance that I would have of taking over the business.

And then, once it became clear that I wasn't coming back, he dropped them all. Doesn't call, too busy to do things, etc. He used them, to hurt me. Planned, and carried out to perfection.

When we were trying to sell our house, he would leave it completely trashed whenever someome came to look at it. When interested parties came to look at the business he did things to make buying it unattractive.

THAT man is a snake. Ooooohhhhh wait bad term, rat is better.

H is not capable of that kind of planning. I would have recognized it long ago after 15 or however many years it was with Joe.

C

C-

I don't know much about wiccan - I've already displayed some of my ignorance previously in one thread or another... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

However, I think there is a similar belief in good and evil as there is in white magic and black magic.

I believe there are forces at work that while your husband doesn't have it in him of himself to plot and plan - I believe he could easily be influenced by forces that are committed to your unhappiness.

I'd recommend being on-guard and I still would recommend not checking up on him. I have reached the point with my husband where I can tell by the shadow over his face if he is shooting straight with me or if he has done something that violates our POJA. I don't have to trust him on ANYTHING. My eyes and my heart tell me all I need to know. I believe you have the same gifts and abilities if you want them.

BTW, I'm not surprised that your first husband was BPD - there is something in this conflict that life has to teach you before BPD will leave. I've had my own repetitious nightmares (real life) to cure me of my door-matitis. And now, my husband jokes that he's glad to see the b! has awakened! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Here's what I posted to Dr. Harley in the private part of the forum:

Dear Dr. Harley,

As I posted to you on fonzee's thread at the EN Basic Concepts Board, I have recently separated from my husband due to the continuation of 5 years of abuse. It has been primarily verbal. In the early years the demands were extremely rigid and the disrespect cutting. The temper tantrums were sometimes daily when he didn't get his way, or when something I or my children did upset him.

There were a few occasions of physical abuse. Mostly directed towards the children and more along the lines of restraining them than of hitting, although he did hit two of them on occasion. He has never hit me, but he has restrained me, and once he shook me when he was very angry with something I said.

In March of 2000, we attended an anger mgt. class together in St. Paul and it was very helpful. He has told me that it helped him to recognize the feelings that lead up to losing his temper and to find ways to relax.

However, the demands and the disrespect still continue. I didn't realize how much I gave in and did what he insisted because I was afraid. As I mentioned to you at fonzee's thread, things really escalated when we returned from the Smart Marriages Conference and I took a zero tolerance stand on demands. He became ever more disrespectful and angry when I no longer acquiesced to the things he demanded and began asking for things I wanted in return for doing things for him.

Last weekend was especially frightening. The moods swings were drastic and rapid. And finally when he became verbally abusive and insulting of my son, I decided enough was enough. I changed the locks on Monday morning and sent him an email letting him know what I had done.

The letter followed the Plan B format:

1. I love you
2. I married you for life
3. I want to stay married to you
4. These things that you are doing are too painful for me to endure any longer
5. Until you get help for the anger and control issues, I do not want to see or speak with you

He took it very graciously (being on the apologetic upswing side of the abuse cycle) and is now in an extended stay hotel. On Wed. he met with a counselor who has agreed to work with him on these issues. He will be administering an MMPI, possibly speaking with me and a previous therapist, and has referred him to a men's group for anger issues.

I received email from my husband telling me that he is journaling daily, working through a workbook for anger mgt., and is re-reading all the Harley books. (He is quite familiar with your work intellectually, practically he's had difficulty implementing it) He is also keeping an expense journal for accountability.

Today, I was reading some of the newer material at this site and came upon the Q/A column on Domestic Violence. There are several things about GS's story that are frighteningly familiar, and to which no one has listened when I've tried to discuss them. The forgetfulness about past events, particularly important agreements and conversations, he has accused me and others of doing things to hurt him… extreme paranoia, and the distortion of past events. The forgetfulness, as you said to GS can be written off to being very self centered, but the other things have deeply concerned me for a long time.

Here then are my questions:

1. What if anything can I do to see that proper assessments are done in order to confirm or rule out an emotional or mental disorder? I believe he is willing to honor any requests I make and will go to his therapist with them.
2. My letter stated that I wanted to maintain no-contact until he took steps to address these things. Now that he is in counseling and seems to be serious about doing the work, is it ok to have limited contact, i.e. date?
3. What sorts of things should I watch for that would indicate either a regression or that the work he is doing is bearing fruit?
4. Email seems to be an emotionally safe method of communicating, is it advisable to keep in touch during this time?
5. Is it ok for me to hold him accountable for time, whereabouts, and money during this time we are apart?

Thanks, Dr. Harley for your time. I tried to think of how I would handle this with my own clients, but it's so much more difficult when the emotions are involved.

C

Hey Crier,

Yep, you're right, I misread something.

"Kayla, it would be considered unethical to do a spell or a working to effect change in another person It's considered control. Only ourselves, or with someone's specific request or permission. And then, only with the intention that it be for the greatest good of all AND harm none. Like MB, Wicca acts on the idea that we can only change us".

Must have been dislexic that night. I thought it was "would it be considered" Dopey me!!!

It's funny how I got into Wicca. My oldest son came back from Boston about two years ago with the book "Teen Witch". I freaked out, what is this crap!!! Then I sat in the tubby and read it and surprisingly it all made sense. I had believed in this for a long time and wasn't aware that it was in the Wiccan belief. I had come to find out both my sons had dabbled in candle magick and my FXW [first ex wife] is also a practicing witch.

I don't advertise my religion because of the stigma related to it. "Oh, you do magick, you bad". Know what I mean? Most people don't understand. I have worn a silver pentacle on a chain for the last two years and have been blessed many times over. Some who have seen it have the same reaction I did at first, where it is bad, the Devil's work. As you know it is not.

Wicca is not for everyone and this is not a commercial to convert.

Crier:
You seem to be viewing this period of no contact as for your husband's use -- so he can get his head together, figure out what's wrong, and begin work on fixing it. That's true, but there is also something for you to do in this time: get perspective. As you yourself said, it is harder for the counsellor to counsel herself because she is so close to the situation. Use this time to really take a step back and view the whole picture. To do this, I think you need NO CONTACT for a specific period of time. That means no emails. Sure, you stay safer that way, but you lose your objectivity. And no calling to check up on him. If you need to confirm that he's remaining sober, find some way that does not involve contact between the two of you.
Crier, I'm troubled by what appears to be your desire to soften your resolve. I really think that doing that will put you in a position of weakness with respect to your husband, which is just the chink in your armor he's looking for and just what you don't need right now. Give him and yourself some more time before you initiate the email/phone contact.

Here's the response from Dr. Harley. And BTW, we worked with him extensively via email a couple of years ago, so he does know quite a bit of the history besides what is here.
-----
cerri: I will try to answer your questions in the order they were asked:

quote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What if anything can I do to see that proper assessments are done in order to confirm or rule out an emotional or mental disorder? I believe he is willing to honor any requests I make and will go to his therapist with them.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A professional anger management program will conduct an extensive evaluation for emotional disorders, such as a paranoid disorder (now called "Delusional Disorder"), but the results will not usually indicate whether or not the disorder might be due to a
head injury or other form of brain damage. It's my opinion after having treated so many of these individuals that the disorder often has organic origins, but most clinics do not test for origins. If you would like your husband to undergo an MRI, to try to
detect a brain injury, you might have to pay for it out of pocket, since insurance is unlikely to cover it.

quote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My letter stated that I wanted to maintain no-contact until he took steps to address these things. Now that he is in counseling and seems to be serious about doing the work, is it ok to have limited contact, i.e. date?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Contact with your husband while he is in treatment for anger management is usually desirable because he needs to be able to practice controlling his temper under frustrating conditions. It will also help you establish how much control your husband is
developing under these conditions.

quote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What sorts of things should I watch for that would indicate either a regression or that the work he is doing is bearing fruit?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The conditions that trigger anger are usually easy to identify. Not getting his way when he makes demands seems to be one of them. I would practice negotiating with the Policy of Joint Agreement to create an alternative to either his giving in to your
demands, or you giving in to his demands. Remember, the goal of negotiation is for for both of you to be enthusiastic about your decision. If he can negotiate with you without getting angry, I'd say that he is making good progress.

quote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Email seems to be an emotionally safe method of communicating, is it advisable to keep in touch during this time?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely!

[QUOTE]Is it ok for me to hold him accountable for time, whereabouts, and money during this time we are apart?[QUOTE]

As long as it's not in the form of a demand. From what you have been writing, it seems that you have quite a bit of control over this man. Be careful not to fall into the trap of making demands yourself as you are trying to learn how to negotiate to an
enthusiastic agreement. In fact, one of the conditions that cause him to be angry might be your own demands of him. If that's the case, simply learn to avoid subjecting him to your demands.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Kayla,

I'm sending you an email too but here's my thoughts on this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I don't know much about wiccan - I've already displayed some of my ignorance previously in one thread or another... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Read girl, read!!!!! JK, really there's so much I don't know. Most of my circle spent years in one magickal system or another, studied mythology, and were on the fringes before taking training. I, OTOH was way into New Age (which most wiccans think of as fluff.... ) and dropped into Wicca by one of those coincidences that don't really exist.

However, I think there is a similar belief in good and evil as there is in white magic and black magic.

Well, I don't know. I certainly believe in good and evil intentions. I would categorize them as harming none v the desire to control. Most wiccans don't believe in a "devil" although we do believe that in the spirit realm there are spirits who are malicious and out to cause trouble, just like there are here in the physical realm. I think though it's more of a belief that all entities have that mixture. The capability to do good or to harm. Certainly I don't see the divine as all soft and fluffy.

I believe there are forces at work that while your husband doesn't have it in him of himself to plot and plan - I believe he could easily be influenced by forces that are committed to your unhappiness.

Ok, now you're gonna have to choose. Either BPD or demonic influence. You don't get both LOL. But Kayla, it's interesting you brought this up. I was having a similar thought along different lines yesterday afternoon. I was thinking how GREATFUL I am that this is happening.

After I worked through the trauma of my childhood abuse, I accepted it. It's who I am and where I come from. I met many women who couldn't move beyond the pain and the anger and the bitterness. Their lives were still held captive to their abusers. I decided I wasn't going to go there. That I would make my peace with the abuse and USE it. I found that I became more able to sympathize and empathize with the childhood hurts of those I came into contact with. It deepened my ability to be strong and caring. It helped me to realize that no matter what I would survive.

I could say the same about most of my life experiences. I grew up in poverty. My parents once moved out of a house in the middle of the night because they couldn't pay the rent and needed to get away. We lived with my grandparents after that. When my mom left my dad, she supported 3 kids on less than $300 a month. That showed me that I CAN survive. Yeah, it's scary now with the kids, and it's one of the reasons I didn't leave sooner, but I know we'll be ok.

So, yesterday I was at the beach thinking about all of this and where I am, and it hit me. I could never do the work that I want to do without this experience. My very best friend was horribly verbally abused by her H (much worse than here) for years. I saw it, but I had no conceptual understanding of the fear she felt. Now I do.

I had an intellectual idea that Joe was hurt, and OM and his wife and family by my A. But being on the other side of it, I KNOW it for real now. I can see both sides and I can have compassion that I didn't before.

I'm not saying that was H did is in anyway ok (I wouldn't say that about my childhood abuse either) but I am saying that sometimes we and the goddess/god allow these things to happen because of the lessons to be learned. No one said that life on earth was supposed to be fun or fair. It's a place to learn and the lessons are hard. I've known for many years that I take on harder lessons than some. When the hurting passes I can see them as gifts.

You are right about this behavior recurring in my relationships (although Joe is way scarier). And I think one of the many things I need to learn is to protect myself and my kids. It comes slowly, but I'm working on it!!!

So, did evil influences prod H to do the things he does? I don't know. But I do know that I will be stronger, more caring, more compassionate, and wiser for having been here.

I'd recommend being on-guard and I still would recommend not checking up on him. I have reached the point with my husband where I can tell by the shadow over his face if he is shooting straight with me or if he has done something that violates our POJA. I don't have to trust him on ANYTHING. My eyes and my heart tell me all I need to know. I believe you have the same gifts and abilities if you want them.

You are lucky. I am sooooo gullible. Yes, these are gifts that can be developed. I "see" energy around people and objects, but I still am sooooo gullible. I guess I need to practice READING that energy!!

I've had my own repetitious nightmares (real life) to cure me of my door-matitis. And now, my husband jokes that he's glad to see the b! has awakened!

LOL, yes it is rather a shock when we wake up and learn to say "No!"

Take a look at your email in an hour or so.

C

Hi C,

Looks like I missed a bunch of posts over the weekend. We had a busy one. But back to you. I read the Harley response. Sorta chuckled a bit when I read the &#8220;you seem to have quite a bit of control over this man.&#8221; I guess some of this could be construed as control, but in reality, what I see you doing is setting the conditions for the relationship to continue. And the basic one I see you setting at this point is Protection. It&#8217;s not about demanding that your needs be met. So I guess I disagree with his statement a bit. Requiring Protection before moving forward is not &#8220;controlling&#8221;.

As far as communication goes, I think you have to stay in contact somewhat. Not to the point of working hard to satisfy Conversation EN, but certainly to keep some kind of connection. Is this counter to the &#8220;you get help, and I can&#8217;t talk to you until then?&#8221; Ok, so he&#8217;s getting help. But I think the connection needs to remain, to keep him from sliding off into the deep end. Justifying cheating. Yes, we both know it&#8217;s wrong, but a vulnerable person can convince themselves it&#8217;s ok to head down that road. Vulnerable, and lonely, and weak.

C, I think you&#8217;re heading down the path that Steve recommended at one time &#8211; right? Wasn&#8217;t it to separate for Protection, husband get help with his anger problem, and then date when it seemed safe enough to do so? It sounds like Willard is suggesting the same now.

As for the whereabouts issue, there&#8217;s certainly not a clear answer on that. What would make you feel better? Obviously calling him and knowing where he is on Sat nights. OTOH, you also know that phone calls he made while traveling before weren&#8217;t any guarantee that nothing was going on. Sorry to bring that up, but I suspect it has crossed your mind at least once over the weekend. I guess my non-MB advice would be to do what works best for you. If him still being accountable for his time and fidelity is something you really need to keep the door open, then work it.

Oh, and one final thing, then I gotta get to work. I read something you wrote about the house, and that if there&#8217;s a divorce, that you won&#8217;t take proceeds, even though you have a legal right. C, I know you are a person with high morals, but I also think you&#8217;re going over the line a bit here. After all of the things you have told me that the two of you have done to that house, improvements both of you made, etc., I am wondering what would not be fair if you took a share of the proceeds. Yep. We wouldn&#8217;t advocate a stay-at-home Mom to say &#8220;he had the salaried job, I ran the house and raised the kids. So I shouldn&#8217;t get any part of the stock portfolio.&#8221; I also don&#8217;t buy the &#8220;but they were my kids&#8221; argument either. He married the package, not just the Mom. I think there is a commitment there to care for the entire package. And, as well, if that condition is met, the entire package should care for him too.

I seem to have gotten twisted off again. Gotta go get some work done.

P

C53...An interesting name BTW....

You seem to be viewing this period of no contact as for your husband's use -- so he can get his head together, figure out what's wrong, and begin work on fixing it.

Noooooo, not exactly. Close, but not quite. When I asked him (nicely of course with locked doors to back me up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) it was for ONE reason. TO STOP THE HURTING.

The conditions I placed on him were to get help and to make real changes. If he chose not to do those things, then the #1 goal is still met. The abuse has stopped.

So yes, it is hard to separate the 2. BUT, if he were still dinking around not making time to put effort into finding a C, making excuses for not following through, then I would be adamant about "don't call until you do."

However, unlike Plan B for infidelity, the day he was gone the abuse ended. With infidelity it goes on until the A is ended and no contact is agreed to.

To draw a somewhat flawed comparsion, agreeing to get help is comparable to ending the A and setting no contact in motion. BUT... the condtions for recovery STILL need to be not only set forth, but met. That's where we are.

With infidelity, I'm pretty adamant that the WS not come home until he/she shows good effort in that area. A signed recovery agreement and some hard work put in first.

With H, I'm just as adamant. He will not be coming back here until he can show repeatedly that he can control his temper all the time, that he can and will learn to meet needs, that he will eliminate the other LBers, and most importantly to me, that we can create a lifestyle that we both enjoy at the same time. I am NOT going back to the way it was.

That's true, but there is also something for you to do in this time: get perspective.

I'm not sure I've ever heard or seen that in MB stuff before!! LOL I always thought it was to protect the LBnk from further trashing.

As you yourself said, it is harder for the counsellor to counsel herself because she is so close to the situation. Use this time to really take a step back and view the whole picture.

Yes, it is so true. But as you see, Dr. Harley said much of what I was thinking intuitively.

I'm assuming you are asking that I reevaluate my commitment to the M. Look at the options and perhaps opt out entirely. That's not going to happen on my end. The one who will end this M, is H. And he will do that by not abiding by the conditions I've set or by simply saying that he's had enough. Five years of intense MB work have changed my views on this. I said this marriage was for life and I meant it. I refuse to be the target of further abuse or to allow that to happen to the kids, but I'll stick with the process as Harley lays it out.

Crier, I'm troubled by what appears to be your desire to soften your resolve. I really think that doing that will put you in a position of weakness with respect to your husband, which is just the chink in your armor he's looking for and just what you don't need right now. Give him and yourself some more time before you initiate the email/phone contact.

No. I've been there. Set limits and then backed off. I can't do it again. The course work I've been doing and the MB conference made me take a good look at how I was enabling what was going on. He needs to get help and he needs to make real changes. I fully expect that to take a long time. But until he can prove that he is safe and capable of doing what needs to be done, that time is at a distance.

I've dealt with whining begging pleading demanding children for 21 years, I know how to say no.

C

Crier:

I can see Harley's point about someone with your husband's weeknesses needing your support. I didn't really consider that fully.

I won’t cop to asking you to reevaluate your commitment to your marriage. You are committed, and I respect that. I WILL cop to something that may be just as bad: my fundamental distrust of your husband. But you have expressed convincing commitment to your boundaries. I trust you in that, and so I will drop the hardline no contact talk.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by curious53:
<strong>Crier:

I can see Harley's point about someone with your husband's weeknesses needing your support. I didn't really consider that fully.

I won’t cop to asking you to reevaluate your commitment to your marriage. You are committed, and I respect that. I WILL cop to something that may be just as bad: my fundamental distrust of your husband. But you have expressed convincing commitment to your boundaries. I trust you in that, and so I will drop the hardline no contact talk.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I think I have the same fundamental distrust, and he WILL need to prove himself. Convincingly, repeatedly, long term before he gets to come back here. Gee, anyone know how to run a 3 point hitch snowblower on a tractor?? Maybe the 4wd will get me through. LOL

Yesterday I was looking in the shed, I need to get my tractor out for the Mabon hayride/full moon celebration. It's behind the roundbaler, the big tractor and something else. I started to panic and then I thought, "No, I've seen this done, it cannot POSSIBLY be THAT difficult, I'll be fine." And I will.

Gotta go, we're off to the beach.

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by crier:
<strong> Gee, anyone know how to run a 3 point hitch snowblower on a tractor??</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, oh, oh, <HoFS doing his Horshack impression> <hand waving> Me, me, me. That is fun. Particularly if you get some stones caught up with the snow! Of course, it helps to have a cab on the tractor and to have the cab all nice and toasty before starting! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Yesterday I was looking in the shed, I need to get my tractor out for the Mabon hayride/full moon celebration. It's behind the roundbaler, the big tractor and something else. I started to panic and then I thought, "No, I've seen this done, it cannot POSSIBLY be THAT difficult, I'll be fine." And I will.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pleaaaaaaaaase, not difficult at all. It will be more difficult getting everything back in place. However, I assume that C- will have an improved organization scheme?? Maybe even an auction planned! I'm hoping none of them have flats???

We've got counseling in less than 48 hrs. Not sure what's next. I guess I can't hold back. No excuses.

Question, does a father wanting to stick around to see his youngest child get on the school bus for the first time seem like such a weird concept? What if the father wasn't told that the mother would instead be taking the child to school via car instead even though the father made his intentions known over a week before school started? Kind of gives you an idea of the discussions we had over the weekend. That and whether or not an affair(s) has an impact on the children. You can probably guess where I fell on that issue.

HoFS

<small>[ August 26, 2002, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: HofFenceSitter ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by HofFenceSitter:
Oh, oh, oh, <HoFS doing his Horshack impression> <hand waving> Me, me, me. That is fun. Particularly if you get some stones caught up with the snow! Of course, it helps to have a cab on the tractor and to have the cab all nice and toasty before starting! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, stop begging. I know you just want the chance to play with the bobcat <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pleaaaaaaaaase, not difficult at all. It will be more difficult getting everything back in place. However, I assume that C- will have an improved organization scheme?? Maybe even an auction planned! I'm hoping none of them have flats???</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think we're ok on the tires. And the shed is 66x99 I think there's enough room for everything without having an auction. Except for the mowers. They're annoying.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We've got counseling in less than 48 hrs. Not sure what's next. I guess I can't hold back. No excuses.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good luck. Got a list ready? Want help? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What if the father wasn't told that the mother would instead be taking the child to school via car instead even though the father made his intentions known over a week before school started? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, in my little skewed version of the world, said father would have mentioned that he wanted to see baby child get on the bus and asked wife how she felt about that. And then she would have said that she was thinking about driving that day, and how did he feel about THAT? And then they would have discussed options (repsectfully) until they found one they both liked a lot. Say, dad went along on the ride in the car and took a picture of child at the door of his classroom. And they lived happily ever after.

Back to work. Had my hour and 36 minutes at the beach.

C

UPDATE

Well first of all, I drank waaaay too much tea, and then came home to the adventures of being single in the wilds of Wisconsin!

First. H went to see his parents yesterday. I was a bit uneasy about how this would go. They are the "my son can do no wrong," sort. As evidenced by his behavior as an adult you can guess that there were no consequences for his violent behavior as a child and teenager. It was always someone else's fault.

And then, when he had the A with a co-worker and kicked out W of 8 years and baby daughter (who is literally a miracle child... w was not supposed to be able to have kids) in order for OW to move in, they patted him on the head and said,"there there dear, whatever makes you happy." And when OW didn't like them living so close by, they packed up left their home and moved to town.

H has never shared with them any of his hx with women, with abusing s/o's, or with all the other things. He's always, "fine." Or, someone else is making his life miserable. When he gets himself into trouble, he goes running to them, and they do the pat on the head thing.

So, maybe you can see why this was a bit unnerving for me. But, I took the position that I'm working hard at adopting. HE needs to do the work to fix this mess. And if he's not willing to change old patterns then it is his choice to let the marriage end. But it will not continue the way it's been.

So, today I asked him how it went, did he have a good time, how are his mom and dad, what did he tell them. He wrote back and said he told them "lots of stuff." And being the shy and submissive sort, I said, "like what?" Well, actually I was more specific but you get the idea.

OMG, I nearly fell over, here's part of the reply:

"I told them that I have been expressing my feelings in destructive
ways,
specifically in yelling at the kids. I told them that you are uhhappy
about
that and are insisting it change in order to continue. I also told
them that
you are annoyed by such things as the diesel fuel situation, and that I
want to
stop the annoying. I told them ther were other women before we were
married,
and about the tpless bars. I told them that I stopped that wrong
behavior over
two years ago. "

I have rarely been so amazed in my life. Amazed and proud. They of course, don't understand. They think that if you're not getting along you just grin and bear it. Which is fine. That's there generation and their way of viewing life and the world. I'm ok with that. But I AM thrilled that he was so honest with them. It must have been very scary.

So, with Dr. H's permission, I had dinner with H tonight. It was nice. Casual, friendly. Kept it light. I asked about his appt. with the C today, and the testing. We had some laughs at some of the q's that are on the MMPI. I asked about the C and how he thought this guy compares to others.

H said he is far more thorough, and that he asks difficult q's that are painful to answer. I like that. He said that when the test results are back they will make a plan based on that and the other assessments. I like that too.

He said the C asked if he had stayed sober, sexually and otherwise this week, and that he could answer yes truthfully. He also said that it was a struggle at times, that he gets the urge to go out. I told him that I am pleased that he was able to do the one day at a time, and that he might want to think about strategies for the long term.

I did say that I understand this is a process and that there will be mistakes. Loss of temper will send me home and we will begin again as he learns what triggers it and how to control his behavior. BUT that there is ZERO TOLERANCE for other women. ANY behaviors in that way will end the marriage, right there. It will be over, there will be no second chance. I will not go back to that place. EVER. He said he understood.

He told me he went to MOA on Sat. night, but that he was home by 9. I have all the access to all the financial statements for every account we have. If he spent a dime there, I'll know it.

I asked if MOA wasn't pushing the boundaries a little.... it's a SA thing, and I suppose other addictions as well...... to see how far you can go without falling off. And he agreed that it was, and that he probably won't do that again. Good idea, I'm thinking.

So, all in all, it was good. It seems he is serious about doing some scary stuff. It will be a long road though. I might need to take Horshack/Hoffs up on that offer to plow the snow.

Now, ya wanna hear the funny story about the struggles of being all alone? If not, stop reading, cuz I'm still wide awake from the tea <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Ok, I get home about 11. I need to take the trash to the end of the driveway, truck comes before 6am tomorrow and last Monday was a little chaotic to say the least and it didn't get out. Now, we're not talking 20 - 30 feet to the end of the driveway, we're talking half a mile!!

Two of those rolley mini-dumpsters, a 30 gallon trash can, and a recycling container. All quite full and very heavy. I've been cleaning.

11yo is still up and I ask him to help. I go to find the keys to the truck. Oh oh. Where the HECK did I leave them??? I had them yesterday, we unloaded the brush. Run up and down the stairs at least 4 times. Check the office, check the bathroom counter, check the bedroom, check all my pockets. No keys.

Finally I check the truck. There they are!!! I never leave keys in vehicles. It was a pet peeve of mine with xh that he always did.

Go to start truck. Click. Click. Dead. It seems someone <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> left something on and the battery is dead. It's now close to midnight.

Have son go get keys to bobcat. Bobcat is at the back end of the 99' shed, in the dark, in the night. Finally get key in, and thank the goddess, it starts. Son and I load it. The bucket is full, and the recycling stuff is balanced precariously, but I'm NOT making 2 trips past the neighbors at midnight with the bobcat!!!!!

I can't see over the cans, so I raise the bucket way up. And then when I hit a rut here and there, I have coke cans and other recycling falling on my head. In the dark, in the night.

After what seems like hours I get to the end of the driveway, unload the stuff and realize that I'm missing a whole bag of recycling. I have visions of spending the next 3 hours picking up soda cans and cardboard off the gravel. In the dark, in the night.

Turn around and head for home. I look up at the roof and the light and I see an odd shape. What can that be???? LOL It's the recycling bag, it bounced onto the roof of the cab. Take it off, spin around, toss it into the bin.

Park the bobcat in the shed. Go about 50' back down the driveway to pick up bag of dropped trash, walk up the hill (just under 1/4 mile) picking up coke cans as I go. Take them to the garage. Call the dog, put him in. Lock the door.

Mission accomplished. I CAN do this. It just takes a little more work.

Now, about that battery............................................ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Hmmmmm.... still awake.......Maybe I can find a book to read for a while.....

C

<small>[ August 27, 2002, 02:11 AM: Message edited by: crier ]</small>

crier-

You have been doing a lot of cleaning. What is it with you and these other ladies having bobcats and the best I can do is a 9.5 hp riding lawnmower?

So who's been listening to CD's in the truck? Maybe there's a party going on in the shed that mom doesn't know about?

Amazing to hear about H. Are you going to visit him everyday? I am a little disappointed that he told his folks that his 'bad' behavior stopped two years ago. Maybe the women did but what about the other 'behavior' problems?

Sleepy yet? I wish you continued success on the journey and H with his journey. I know there is a ways to go. Maybe there will be a good harvest afterall. Can't collect too early though before it is fully mature. In the mean time, I'd better go explain to my snow removal job to my family!

HoFS

Hi Hoffs

You have been doing a lot of cleaning.

We've only just beguuuuuunnnnnn....
To Cleeeeeeeeeeeannnnn....
White rags and lyyyyyyyyy ...sol
A kiss for luck and we're on ooooour waaayyy......

What is it with you and these other ladies having bobcats and the best I can do is a 9.5 hp riding lawnmower?

I have 6 tractors here too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So who's been listening to CD's in the truck? Maybe there's a party going on in the shed that mom doesn't know about?

I wish it were so. But no, the truck was parked by the house. Where mom left it after the brush was unloaded. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Amazing to hear about H. Are you going to visit him everyday?

No. I'm doing this with a heavy mixture of MB and intuition and knowing him for 5 years. Every day, and he would think life is pretty cool. He needs some fear and some angst and some pain and loneliness if he's going to keep working. So I'm thinking still no phone contact for the most part, and visit.....hmmmmmm..... I dunno, even twice a week seems a lot. We'll see.

Also, although I'm not with C53 that this is a time to evaluate what I want to do about the M i.e. end it..... I am pretty clear that this is a time to do some family healing. So. I'm not going to be dashing off and leaving the kids to their own decvices while H gets me all to himself. That was part of the problem in the past, and I don't want to start that pattern again. He'll have to learn to share.

AND I need the peace of not worrying about him and his problems, etc. Too much time together, at least now, and he's going to put me back in that role of driving his recovery. Not my job. He wants me, he does the work. On his own.

I am a little disappointed that he told his folks that his 'bad' behavior stopped two years ago. Maybe the women did but what about the other 'behavior' problems?

Oh. You mean you don't know his style of writing and speaking like I do??? LOL That's what he meant. The women. Not the other stuff. He told them he's getting help now. They still don't get it.

In the mean time, I'd better go explain to my snow removal job to my family!

Uhhhhmmmmmmm wanna give me some tips on the portable battery jumpy charger thingy? AKA the whosamagolly that makes the dead vehicles go from click to vroom?

C

<small>[ August 27, 2002, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: crier ]</small>

Hi Crier,

You know, you're a pretty savvy MB'er for a newbie! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I didn't write sooner because things have been hectic at work, but I just wanted to say how great your meeting and findings with husband went. "Guarded optimistic" at this point, I guess. Some other things you said that I absolutely agree with: at some point in the future, your children are going to need to be reintroduced to your outings with husband. You're right, you don't want to turn this into living apart with frequent one-on-one dating. With occasional SF, he'd probably decides he likes the living apart. I think a once per week frequency now though would probably be right. Yes, he's gonna cheat if he wants to, but at about once per week I think it makes it a lot easier for him not to.

No words of wisdom. You know, when wife and I were separated, I think she would have never ever given me the time of day again if I hadn't worked on my relationship with D. Worked on my anger so that relationship could grow. At the time, even though I felt good about things with D getting better, what I really wanted was a wife. I didn't realize it but what wife wanted was a better Father for D. Anyway, aside from my habit of rambling, I guess what I'm wondering is whether at some point the work shifts from improving relationship with you to improving relationship with children. I think a long time ago I told you that I thought you would never be happy in your marriage until your husband met your FC EN. Yep, Protection is certainly required too, and a necessary first step. But if he's smart, at some point he is going to have to realize that things will never work out long-term if he pursues a relationship with just you.

Gotta run and grill some salmon. Wife took D to dance lessons. Hey, did I tell you the good news? Our TV in the family room quit. Have a quiet room to sit, read, talk now. Ideal setting for full-attention RT's! JK! Now, if only the TV in the bedroom were to go out.... Hmmmmm.

BTW, saw the neighbor yesterday while getting the mail and the trash cans. Talked for a little bit. She's nice, but nothing that moves me in any way. Guess it felt good to talk with her a while and feel that way about it. Maybe I'm passed that HT stage of going nutso if an attractive woman says hi!

Gotta run.

P

Hi P,

You know, you're a pretty savvy MB'er for a newbie!

It's that whole reincarnation thing..... I'm able to recall things I new from a previous life <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I didn't write sooner because things have been hectic at work

You don't mean that the new organization is expecting you to take time away from MB to work, do you? Time to send out resumes!!!

"Guarded optimistic" at this point, I guess.

I would say guarded optimistic about his willingness to make real changes. I don't know if I would go so far as to say as much about it actually happening. Time will tell. He has a long way to go. I told him my story about my bobcat adventure, and he told me later he had a difficult time staying calm.

I appreciate the honesty, and I told him so. But wow, it's scary to think that the urge to control is so strong that an incident which is over and done, no one and nothing were hurt, and that I handled just fine, would be upsetting. I'm a bit taken aback. And yes, I told him that. Email. It's safe...... so far. But delete is just a click away.

With occasional SF, he'd probably decides he likes the living apart.

Except I have all the toys here!!! LOL But yeah, I see what you're saying.

I think a once per week frequency now though would probably be right. Yes, he's gonna cheat if he wants to, but at about once per week I think it makes it a lot easier for him not to.

I hope so. In the short term I'm not so worried. Right now he's in the sad and sorry stage. The I want to make it up to you stage. The I'll show you that I can be good stage. (To paraphrase Rabbit talking about Tigger <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

But my intuition tells me that as this goes into the future, he's going to get impatient and irritated with not getting what he wants. For example, the stairs are scheduled to ship 9/25 and the opening is not ready. So I could see that when the downswing comes, which it will, that he would then be most likely to start calling numbers out of the Pioneer Press. Pretty easy to do when you live in a hotel and have no phone records to account for.

Anyway, aside from my habit of rambling,

LOL...... Yeah, we don't know anyone else with that habit do we???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I guess what I'm wondering is whether at some point the work shifts from improving relationship with you to improving relationship with children. I think a long time ago I told you that I thought you would never be happy in your marriage until your husband met your FC EN.

You know, P, I'm glad you brought that up. It's been biting at the back of my brain and seeing you talk about it helps solidify those thoughts. You're right. I wouldn't be happy about going back to 2 separate family units / H and me / kids and me. There has to be a unified family thing going on here. Before he comes back.

Yep, Protection is certainly required too, and a necessary first step. But if he's smart, at some point he is going to have to realize that things will never work out long-term if he pursues a relationship with just you.

My position now is that I'm willing to date. As long as the protection remains in place. I expect there will be failures, that's only natural. And then I can go home and he can re work his plan, talk to his C, and work with the men's group. But as for getting back together, he would have to show that he could meet needs.... all of them...... consistently long term. I would have to be in love and be able to trust him.

Our TV in the family room quit. Have a quiet room to sit, read, talk now. Ideal setting for full-attention RT's! JK! Now, if only the TV in the bedroom were to go out.... Hmmmmm.

How about offering to move bedroom tv to family room? Very sweetly and innocently with nothing but D's happiness and familyb viewing time as your motivation?

BTW, saw the neighbor yesterday while getting the mail and the trash cans. Talked for a little bit. She's nice, but nothing that moves me in any way. Guess it felt good to talk with her a while and feel that way about it. Maybe I'm passed that HT stage of going nutso if an attractive woman says hi!

Did you toss her any doggie treats <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ? I'm assuming she doesn't need to take the trash out with a bobcat?
It is a good sign of progress and perhaps a LBnk that's getting fed?

C

Gotta run.

P[/QB][/QUOTE]

With much heavy negotiation on what to do if thngs go wrong, I've accepted H's invitation to spend the night and go to the fair tomorrow.

We've agreed that either of us can take a time out if we feel that emotions are getting too high, OR if I feel frightened. The plan is for 45 minutes, no stomping off, no swearing, no OP.

If he doesn't honor my need for a TA.. should I need one... I can end the date then and there. We are driving separately to the fair so I'll have my vehicle and can go home.

So, anyway. I'm scared already. He's been depressed for 2 days, and is having struggles with the insurance and his counselling.

Seems that he didn't investigate fully before choosing a C, and now has one that is not covered long term. Could have. All he needed to do was check with our insurance plan. But no. That was too much work and he would have had to talk to someone. Am I sounding frustrated and irritated?

It seems that they are behind schedule at work too, so he's having a hard time dealing with that. When I talk to him it's like talking to the dark side of Eyore. Definitely not attractive.

AND he says that he's beginning to like living alone with nothing to worry about. ..... While I handle the trash, the truck, and the dead bunny. Not to mention all the other aspects of a place this size.

Ok, I'm feeling used and overwhelmed. And hopeless. Probably it's just the fallout from the bunny dying. It's hitting everyone pretty hard here. And H was not unsympathetic, but he made some inane comment about the rabbit and.... oh never mind. It was irritating. Let's just leave it at that.

So, I guess I'm saying not a good recipe for an overnight/all day date. Sounds rather depressing to me.

Ok, so writing helps to clarify. I'll send an email that says I'm afraid, of what and why.

C <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Hugs to you C. Sorry to hear about the bunny. I can guess at the inanity...

I've met Eeyore on a bad day - in fact I think I lived with him for about 9 months straight. Not conducive to a date, I agree, but I know you were looking forward to going to the fair, so try not to let H get to you too much.

Had managed to block out that this was a 3 day weekend until Thursday. Not sure I'm looking forward to it either, but we'll see.

Hoping for an alien invasion for you!