H is having trouble with our ins. and the counselling. The C that he met with whom he really liked, wants to see him twice a week. Which I think is good. But because of the ins mess he only has one covered session left. The next one is on Monday, it will have been 2 weeks.

He's not being very proactive about getting it straightened out. What a shock.

Meanwhile, the C called and is concerned about depression, wants him to go on meds. I can see it getting worse.

His emails and his conversation are really like Eyore having a bad day with PMS symptoms. It's annoying. All of it. The not gettting the C stuff in order, whining about his job (I said empathized with his feelings and said I thought he should talk about it with his C, as a spouse I didn't have suggestions.) The putdowns and hopelessness about himself.

Other things too. Little things, but they add up to a bigger picture that I'm really irritated with.

Ok, so yeah, I'm getting to the question <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I figure my choices are
1. To be honest about my fears and how I feel. But I don't know how without sounding like I'm slamming him.

2. Go back to no contact until he gets the C stuff figured out. He's not, not seeing someone, but after Monday's visit, we're back in la la land of not knowing what to do.

I guess the bottom line is that over the last couple of days contact has become gradually more and more unpleasant. This morning's whiney poor me email was enough to make me want to block him from sending me more.

Ok, well, I'm rambling. Tell me what you think.

C

crier-

I identify with both Rabbit and Eyore! Imagine that combination! Maybe that's one reason my W tired of me. The glass was always half empty. Heck, I should have realized that the glass was just twice as large as it needed to be!

Think back to the reason(s) you 'locked' your H out. Don't you think that the pattern of not being able to help himself out of a problem and blaming others (whining to you?) is part of the reason you went to your Plan B? It was more than just the anger and putting down you and your children. I think your H needs to know that this behavior is crossing the line. Otherwise, why should he tried to stop it? He needs to know that his attitude scares you and hurts you. While this attitude may not make you feel like curling up into a safe little ball, to you, this is hurting you. He needs to know that you can offer advice (duh) and can empathize with his problems but he has to learn how to deal with bad days at work, etc. and not make it a lifechoice to bring others down with him when things are not going his way.

Geesh, I'm rambling. You're good at this stuff. It sounds like you need to tell him that if this behavior that makes you feel bad doesn't change, there will be consequences, like no-contact, until he can demonstrate changes (like getting the insurance mess straightened out).

Make any sense?

HoFS

<small>[ September 04, 2002, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: HofFenceSitter ]</small>

Hey Hoffs,

I identify with both Rabbit and Eyore! Imagine that combination!

Would that be a blue/orange striped, bouncing, down in the dumps donkey? Whew! That's enough to scare a teenager!!

Think back to the reason(s) you 'locked' your H out. Don't you think that the pattern of not being able to help himself out of a problem and blaming others (whining to you?) is part of the reason you went to your Plan B?

Oh heavens yes!! But it's not Plan B... it's S&D <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

It was more than just the anger and putting down you and your children. I think your H needs to know that this behavior is crossing the line. Otherwise, why should he tried to stop it? He needs to know that his attitude scares you and hurts you.

Yes I know. But I don't have the words. I feel so bad because I know he's afraid and struggling and thinking he's never going to get where he needs to be. And then I think if I come along and say ...welll this, this, and this are really irritating me, that it's like kicking someone when they're down.

But I can't NOT say something. Because it will continue to erode any willingness I have to do this. All I could think of on my way over to school for my meeting, was that I just want to chuck it all and run away somewhere. I don't want to play counsellor. I want him to get help and then practice his new skills when he's with me.

He needs to know that you can offer advice (duh) and can empathize with his problems

Oh NO!!! I tried the offer advice thing and got my hand slapped for that from everyone around me. SH, you guys, H.... huh uh. No advice coming out of this mouth to him.
Empathize? I don't even know that I can do that. Oh, yeah. I can say the words. But hearing someone whine about the same stuff over and over and refusing to do anything to address the problems is NOT something I have any sympathy for.

I got 4 emails. One was so down it was scary. I was ready to call the suicide hotline. 2 were about my stuff going on today, upbeat, positive, encouraging. The last one was that he is changing C's midstream and starting over with one that our ins covers (according to him) for sure.

I see the mood swings and the acting out in the moment without seeing what he's doing. What I think he needs for his job stuff, and maybe for his life stuff, is a good coach. Like the ones who write the books I read for my coursework.

I DON'T WANT TO FIX THIS. IT'S NOT MY JOB!!!

C/frustrated <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by crier:
<strong>Hey Hoffs,

I identify with both Rabbit and Eyore! Imagine that combination!

Would that be a blue/orange striped, bouncing, down in the dumps donkey? Whew! That's enough to scare a teenager!!

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh wait!!! You said RABBIT ane Eyore. Whew. THAt is a sad thought. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Hey, that's pretty much a decscription of my 2 h's. The first was R, the second E. I want ..... hmmm ...... there is no cartoon figure that comes close. THAT's my problem!!!

C

Hi Crier.

Sorry to hear about your situation, separation is difficult but in many ways it has been peaceful for me also. It seems that we have much in common. My marriage is in the S&D phase also, although it really isn't going very well.

There was much betrayal in my marriage that involved many OW's and several other classic SA issues. One thing that I am very much struggling with right now is that H wants to pretend that all is well and we can just sweep it all under the rug and pretend it didn't happen. He is getting some counseling on his own and attending some SA meetings, (although he is doing this to pacify me) and he is adamant about keeping that all private to him. He has answered all of my questions regarding his activities, but now he expects that I just trust him to do his thing. Well, obviously at this point there is no trust. On my side there is recently alot of resentment which is new to me. Tell me, why is that just coming up now? I have been hurt, I've been angry, but the resentment is new. I found out six months ago so why am I just feeling this now? Is it because he is trying to go on as if it never happened?

Another difficulty I am having is that my children are not at all close to H (he is their step-father). For reconciliation one (of the many) changes that must happen is that we need to be more integrated as a family. Not him and his v me and mine. That is how the old marriage was and if there is to be a "new marriage" then this is one of my must-haves. I don't know how to get there. He doesn't much care for them, and they are not at all close to him. How can I foster that? When we were going to a MC and this came up I discussed how he will not even tuck my kids in at night. If his daughter is there, he will tuck her in and then mine but if it is just my kids then only I tuck them. (BTW, he has one half-time D, I have 3 full-time kids -- all 12 and under). The MC said that this was controlling on my part because I should not expect him to say goodnight to my kids, but I should go find him and tell him to go say goodnight. To me this is absurd because me telling him to do so seems much more controlling to me than expecting him to do so after 4 years. After all, he "remembers" when his D is there. Besides that, how to I cultivate a healthy relationship between them or do I not even cross that bridge until he has a healthy relationship with me.

There are many control issues. Communication issues. Needs issues. One might wonder why I choose to fix this marriage at all. I want the man that I dated back. When we dated H was very attentive, affectionate, he communicated and he was loyal. That all changed immediately following the wedding and he has become a very controlling, distant, WS.

Any advice on where I go from here?

Thanks,
PasDeDeux

Oh - P.S. Since I'm a newbie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> can you tell me what an RT is? I've read enough to understand it's meaning - just not it's translation - I know I have lots of them though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Hi Crier,

Well, I don&#8217;t think you can be his coach or counselor either. I remember Jennifer telling me that &#8220;you cannot teach if there&#8217;s not a student in the room&#8221;. I think at best, all we can do with our spouse is get to the point of discussion of MB philosophies, program, etc. Hey, did I tell you that over the weekend, wife and I talked about our first (conventional) counselor. Someone wife knows is going through marriage counseling too, and the gist of the conversation was that wife didn&#8217;t believe the conventional program that we did could be effective in restoring a marriage. Not like MB&#8217;ers, which addressed an entirely different part of the marriage &#8211; not solely conflict resolution or communication.

Ok, so back to your question. So, do you think anti-depressants would help your husband deal with this? Isn&#8217;t it wild how life last week was carefree, with no ranch stuff to have to worry about. And life this week is depressing? Likely he enjoyed the dating this past weekend too, and is now staring at empty walls again. And work&#8217;s not any fun. Oops, I guess maybe this is sounding like his e-mail! But I guess I&#8217;m just saying that I could understand where he&#8217;s coming from.

But you have to say something, or he&#8217;s going to drag you down with him. But obviously, it needs to be done in a constructive manner, so that it doesn&#8217;t come across as kicking him when he&#8217;s down. Can&#8217;t tell him that you&#8217;ve already got four kids to deal with, and don&#8217;t need another one to mother!

C, is the insurance reimbursement really an issue? I mean, if he really likes the C that he&#8217;s seeing, and there&#8217;s a better chance of success with him, would you be able to afford him staying on that program. I know two households probably put a damper on finances, just don&#8217;t know the extent.

I know you cannot fix things for him. But maybe you could suggest what needs to be done. Insurance, counselor, etc. Provide some clarity for a depressed person, but explain to him that you need him to be responsible and follow through on things. (yeah, this sounds a bit like a DJ, but I know you can say it correctly). I guess the only other thing would be to reinforce how nice the weekend was, how you enjoyed spending time with him, but that you need him to follow through on his Plans, on his work, on recovery of the marriage. That these are not things you can do for him.

C, is this a typically pattern? Or is this just a short-term dip? My friend Cerri is always telling me that there will be dips in the road.

P

Hi P,

Hey, did I tell you that over the weekend, wife and I talked about our first (conventional) counselor. Someone wife knows is going through marriage counseling too, and the gist of the conversation was that wife didn&#8217;t believe the conventional program that we did could be effective in restoring a marriage. Not like MB&#8217;ers, which addressed an entirely different part of the marriage &#8211; not solely conflict resolution or communication.

She SAID that???? About MB?????? Whoa. (And I know a good coach she could send her friends too when they get discouraged with the conventional C <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Ok, so back to your question. So, do you think anti-depressants would help your husband deal with this?

I don't know. I've never seen him on meds at all. Maybe. I want to know what other things the MMPI shows, before we jump into that. It has to be a plan taking the whole picture into account, not just pieced together.

Isn&#8217;t it wild how life last week was carefree, with no ranch stuff to have to worry about. And life this week is depressing?

Well, yeah. And what's scarier, is that he doesn't remember that he said that about liking being away from home. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Likely he enjoyed the dating this past weekend too, and is now staring at empty walls again. And work&#8217;s not any fun. Oops, I guess maybe this is sounding like his e-mail! But I guess I&#8217;m just saying that I could understand where he&#8217;s coming from.

You sound rational. Here's the exchange. Tell me if I'm seeing ghosts that aren't there:

H: "I think I would like it best if we meet around 8,
> and do it somewhere where we
> can snack. I would suggest Perkins in Hastings.
> HWYFAT?
> I am frustrated with work. Apparently, Mike has
> made deals about what some of
> our people would do before the next release of
> software can be released. These
> things are not done, so software is not ready to
> release. So I have instruments
> ready to start-up and no software. I couldn't have
> expedited these things
> getting done, because I didn't know about his deals.
> Mike likes to be able to
> say we are waiting on software, but this time it is
> backfiring. I am going to
> get dinged for being late if we don't finish these
> by Oct 17. Mike will get his
> bonus when the product releases next year. I want
> to quit.
> You have meetings? How wonderful!!!! Are they
> PC's????"

______

C:"I have a 9 am meeting with K S at the HS. And
a 1 pm meeting/interview with John Ellis... from
Spencer Institute.

I'm sorry you feel so icky about your job and the
politics. It sounds like you're really frustrated. I
wonder if this isn't something that Balke could help
you work through? I have lots of ideas that would be
appropriate for a client, but not for a spouse.

8 is fine. Perkins in Hastings, do I know where that
is?

xop"

----

H:"Right. See, I told you I would forget about your appointment with
Spencer
Ellis.
The key word is cope. How do I cope with this situation at work? I
need my
list of appropriate coping behaviors. Right now I am so frustrated I
can't even
remember one of them. I doubt Balke would be interested. It's just
another
symptom of a person with deep emotional problems.
Hope your meeting with S goes well.
Yes you know where Perkins is. Go to Emily's and turn around. You
should be
able to smell the garbage of Perkins from there."

______

Can&#8217;t tell him that you&#8217;ve already got four kids to deal with, and don&#8217;t need another one to mother!

You read my mind, didn't you????? Stop that!

C, is the insurance reimbursement really an issue? I mean, if he really likes the C that he&#8217;s seeing, and there&#8217;s a better chance of success with him, would you be able to afford him staying on that program. I know two households probably put a damper on finances, just don&#8217;t know the extent.

Well the C, who wants to see him twice a week is $110 a pop. And the group that he wants him to see is $125 each individual visit with the psychologist. They want you to do about 6 of those. And then it's like $65. each group session. I can 't remember if that's once or twice a week. So even if it's once, it could potentially be almost $300 a week, after the individual sessions. More before that.

So, yeah, with the added expense of housing, it would be difficult. His c/s is pretty hefty, so that takes a chunk already. Not that I'm complaining. I had a deadbeat dad, so I am very pleased that he always pays in full on time.

But maybe you could suggest what needs to be done. Insurance, counselor, etc. Provide some clarity for a depressed person, but explain to him that you need him to be responsible and follow through on things.

Yeah, I know. What I really need to say is how afraid I am that we'll just be stuck in this going nowhere pattern. I can't do that forever. And that whining about things is very unattractive. If you don't like the way things are at work, then find a way to react differently or to complain constructively. But don't give me the same sob story about it being everyone else's fault day after day. I can't handle that.

C, is this a typically pattern?

If you look this up in the encyclopedia of patterns you will see his photo front and center.

My friend Cerri is always telling me that there will be dips in the road.

Did she tell you they'd be standing in your path waving their arms and whining??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Crier:
Are you in the Twin Cities? I read your post and thought -- if only I had done what you had done when what I had was a two year old who said "f... you". Since the fourth baby was born on Valentine's Day 2001, I have had much worse. I counted 42 f... you's one week in late July last year. He told me about a W who said she felt passion for him and wanted to have an A and I got upset and he said too bad and that he had no further contact with her. I had surgery, including a hysterectomy, on December 5 and on December 17 I threatened to call this woman and he punched me and broke my arm so that I needed surgery and was in a cast or splint until April 3. Anyway, my H has been going to anger management. He does still swear but he hasn't touched me since March, when he threw me down. In the fall, when we were fighting about this woman, he did many things -- throw me down, spank me, choke me... The three year old still says, "Daddy spanked Mommy". By the way, there was something to that relationship. In April, I called Harley's radio program, Harley recommended I call OW's H, and OW's H got out of OW on May 4 that it had been a PA since 9/11.

My H's anger management guy specializes in anger management for men and is known by shelters in the area. I do see some progress, although I am so sick of the swearing and suspicious that he may have gone back to OW that I asked him to leave on Monday. If you are interested in calling the anger management guy, let me know and I'll give you the name.

Also the Harriet Tubman house (612.825.000?) will give free legal advice when abuse is involved. According to my H, what he has learned in anger management is that abuse is broadly defined. Swearing can be viewed as intimidation and can be grounds for a restraining order.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by testing:
Crier:
Are you in the Twin Cities? I read your post and thought -- if only I had done what you had done when what I had was a two year old who said "f... you". Since the fourth baby was born on Valentine's Day 2001, I have had much worse. I counted 42 f... you's one week in late July last year. He told me about a W who said she felt passion for him and wanted to have an A and I got upset and he said too bad and that he had no further contact with her. I had surgery, including a hysterectomy, on December 5 and on December 17 I threatened to call this woman and he punched me and broke my arm so that I needed surgery and was in a cast or splint until April 3. Anyway, my H has been going to anger management. He does still swear but he hasn't touched me since March, when he threw me down. In the fall, when we were fighting about this woman, he did many things -- throw me down, spank me, choke me... The three year old still says, "Daddy spanked Mommy". By the way, there was something to that relationship. In April, I called Harley's radio program, Harley recommended I call OW's H, and OW's H got out of OW on May 4 that it had been a PA since 9/11.

My H's anger management guy specializes in anger management for men and is known by shelters in the area. I do see some progress, although I am so sick of the swearing and suspicious that he may have gone back to OW that I asked him to leave on Monday. If you are interested in calling the anger management guy, let me know and I'll give you the name.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Testing,

Yes, I'm in the TC. H is joining a group in Eagan that our ins will cover. He was never close to what you describe. Or at least not with me, and I don't think with prev. wives. The other one that is big in the TC is Birchwood. Is that the one you know of?

Did you tell Harley about the physical abuse??? There's no way he would reccomend that you stay in the same house. Did he leave when you asked him to? Is your home secure?

I am Cerri from the JFO thread that's nearly 300 pages long. Have you been there? I do relationship coaching with MB principles. If there is anything I can do for you and your children do not hesitate to call me. My number is on my site which is www.lifeworks-coaching.net My voicemail is secure.

I fear for your long term safety. And for your kids. And yes, I know how terribly hard it is to do what I did. It is frightening and heartbreaking. You are courageous to take that step. Please please let me know if I can help in any way.

C

Hello my ballerina friend!!!

One thing that I am very much struggling with right now is that H wants to pretend that all is well and we can just sweep it all under the rug and pretend it didn't happen.

Do you think this is so that he can continue with that way of life, or is it more that he feels badly and doesn't want to think about the things he did?

He is getting some counseling on his own and attending some SA meetings, (although he is doing this to pacify me) and he is adamant about keeping that all private to him.

Could you negotiate that he not tell you about other's stories if he is afraid of violating confidentiality, but that he tell you a little about how he felt about the meeting? At first I would really press H for all the details. But after a while, I just asked how he felt about the meeting, and if he had any big lightbulbs go off. Usually that would lead to other conversation, but not always.

Of course he was working on the other recovery things like accountability and honesty at the same time. And the all important not checking out other women!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

He has answered all of my questions regarding his activities, but now he expects that I just trust him to do his thing. Well, obviously at this point there is no trust.

Of course there's no trust. That's only natural. And you would be silly to trust him without evidence that he is trustworthy. That takes about 2 years to reestablish. Did I ever post those guidelines for you?

On my side there is recently alot of resentment which is new to me. Tell me, why is that just coming up now?

I think it's a couple of different things. First you've dealt with the rage, and the pain. They are the immediate reactions that allow you to survive. But now that thing have settled into a pattern, you can really see the damage stretching forward and back.
So you feel resentment.

Also, resentment comes from things that are not addressed. And it 's not. Going to SA is great. But until the other aspects of recovery are in order you will feel resentment.

Is it because he is trying to go on as if it never happened?

Yeah, that's a big part of it. Forgiveness gets a lot of press, but it should come at the end of the recovery process. Forgiveness denotes writing off a debt that cannot be paid. In the case of infidelity, there should be restitution first. Avoid LBers, learn to meet needs, create a lifestyle that makes you both happy at the same time. When THAT is done, then the resentment will fade, and you will gladly forgive him for the OW's.

For reconciliation one (of the many) changes that must happen is that we need to be more integrated as a family. Not him and his v me and mine. That is how the old marriage was and if there is to be a "new marriage" then this is one of my must-haves.

Hey!!!!! No fair copying off my paper!! That's my line and I had it first! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I've been thinking a lot about this too. Have you discussed it at all? How does he react? It's part of the meeting needs thing. He's gotta do it if he wants to have the M.

I don't know how to get there. He doesn't much care for them, and they are not at all close to him. How can I foster that?

First we have to know his willingness. Then we can talk about the how.

The MC said that this was controlling on my part because I should not expect him to say goodnight to my kids, but I should go find him and tell him to go say goodnight. To me this is absurd because me telling him to do so seems much more controlling to me than expecting him to do so after 4

I agree!!! I think most conventional C's are way off base on the control thing. Ideally you would negotiate to get this need met.

Besides that, how to I cultivate a healthy relationship between them or do I not even cross that bridge until he has a healthy relationship with me.

Well, no. Somewhere in between there. He needs to demonstrate that he is willing to do everything it takes to recover and repair the M. Accountability and honesty need to be on the table. From there you begin to negotiate on needs. One of them being FC.

I want the man that I dated back. When we dated H was very attentive, affectionate, he communicated and he was loyal. That all changed immediately following the wedding and he has become a very controlling, distant, WS.

You're one step ahead of me. H wasn't even faithful when we were dating.

Any advice on where I go from here?

My first line of advice is always honesty. Without LBers. Tell him how you feel and what you need and how his actions affect you. If he has control issues.... and I think all addicts do.... then that needs to be addressed too. With anger in the picture, nothing else can be addressed.

Oh - P.S. Since I'm a newbie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> can you tell me what an RT is? I've read enough to understand it's meaning - just not it's translation - I know I have lots of them though.

Relationship Talk. We just shortened it at P's thread. I'll be curious to see how fast it spreads through MB!

C

C

<small>[ March 21, 2003, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: broken heart and arm ]</small>

M

<small>[ March 21, 2003, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: broken heart and arm ]</small>

Hi C,

Well, daughter’s in the other room watching American Idol, wife has already called tonight, and I got a minute to get back to you.

She SAID that???? About MB?????? Whoa.

Yep, it almost floored me too. But on the outside, Mr <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> !

Well, yeah. And what's scarier, is that he doesn't remember that he said that about liking being away from home.

Hmmm, that is a bit disturbing.

Tell me if I'm seeing ghosts that aren't there:

Boo! Well, I’ve had similar conversations with wife when she was really down about something, but it’s a very infrequent thing. From the jumping back and forth, it appears that he’s trying to change the subject, and not dwell on it. Guess I would have been more concerned if his despair was the only thing he talked about. But I’m not a MD, nor as up on depression as you probably are. (That came out weird – but I think you know what I mean!)

I'm sorry you feel so icky about your job and the politics. It sounds like you're really frustrated. I wonder if this isn't something that Balke could help
you work through? I have lots of ideas that would be appropriate for a client, but not for a spouse.

Actually, that was a nice response. But you might have suggested that you had lots of ideas for a client, as I suspect your C would also, and probably best to stick with his program.

Yeah, I know. What I really need to say is how afraid I am that we'll just be stuck in this going nowhere pattern. I can't do that forever.

Yep. I think that would be fine, and not leave him feel like he’s being kicked while down.

And that whining about things is very unattractive.

True, but do you expect to get anywhere with this, even if you could say it in a non-Lbing way? It’s unfortunate that it’s a message that needs to be delivered, but timing couldn’t be worse. It’s one of those things that we talk about at a peak (remember when you….), not at a trough. Or that’s just the world according to P, not Harley.

If you don't like the way things are at work, then find a way to react differently or to complain constructively. But don't give me the same sob story about it being everyone else's fault day after day. I can't handle that.

Yes, this is what I would say to a coworker. As a matter of fact, I have frequently. Is there any way you could get message across in the first sentence? “Honey, I can understand that your frustrated. Do you have a Plan to change the situation, rather than just learning to cope with these things that seem to be occurring frequently?”

Gotta run – D needs me! Probably to keep the dog quiet so she can watch TV. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

P

Hi P.... why does that always feel like I'm talking to myself???? LOL

Well, daughter’s in the other room watching American Idol, wife has already called tonight, and I got a minute to get back to you.

Oh!!!! I got to watch the first half hour with the kids, but then went to meet H for some MB homework. Chapters 7 and 8 in HN/HN.... it was a really fun conversation. UAT really was UA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Met at Perkins had a snack and a good time. 2 1/2 hours. Not bad.

She SAID that???? About MB?????? Whoa.

Yep, it almost floored me too. But on the outside, Mr <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> !

Man!!! I don't know how you kept your jaw from bouncing off the floor!!!! I'm way impressed, with both of you!!!!

Well, yeah. And what's scarier, is that he doesn't remember that he said that about liking being away from home.

Hmmm, that is a bit disturbing.

Uh huh.

And that whining about things is very unattractive.

True, but do you expect to get anywhere with this, even if you could say it in a non-Lbing way? It’s unfortunate that it’s a message that needs to be delivered, but timing couldn’t be worse. It’s one of those things that we talk about at a peak (remember when you….), not at a trough. Or that’s just the world according to P, not Harley.

Sorry but no, Harley says one of the signs that you encourage dishonesty is if you wait until your spouse is "emotionally ready" to hear something, or if that is when you want your spouse to be honest with you. Honesty either is or it isn't. It's not conditional.

But I think I have to rephrase. It's not the whining on a bad day. We all do that. It's 2-fold. The whining and not ever doing anything to change the situation. The I'm so powerless and there's nothing I can do thing really gets to me. But more than that, it's the assuming that he knows other's motivations and thoughts and reasons for why they do things. And that those motivations etc. are always devious and manipulative.

We touched on that subject a little tonight. Not specifically as it related to the day or to any one situation, but in general. He told me about some of the reading he's been doing in the anger category, and one of the ...... I can't remember what it's called but the upshot is..... unhealthyb thinking patterns is believing that you know others thoughts and motivations. Another is paranoid thinking..... that others are always up to no good. One of the things on that AI test I posted.

I think there's some intellectual comprehension going on. Practice is confined to work and times with me, the stresses of family life aren't there. And we talked a little about that too. I didn't get specific, but I did say that things in that area would need to change also before the M was on track, and that I wasn't going back to 2 separate families. And that I would have to see progress in that area before he moved back. But that he and his C... whoever that ends up being.... could decide when the time was right to approach that.

We talked some about the SA stuff. And that my feeling is I'm scared of what could happen, but that I need to let that go so that we can do what we need to now. He knows my zero tolerance and if he chooses to cheat, then that's his choice and it's over. I know he knows what he needs to do to guard his LBnk, the rest is up to him.

Is there any way you could get message across in the first sentence? “Honey, I can understand that your frustrated. Do you have a Plan to change the situation, rather than just learning to cope with these things that seem to be occurring frequently?”

I think he would say that was disrespectful. He told me tonight that one of the things he doesn't talk about with me is his ambitions, because he thinks I'll think they're foolish. Which I wouldn't, BTW. I said I thought if he really wanted to be serious about those things that my suggestion would be to find a good career coach. One that took marriage and our goals there into account. I think he was pleasantly surprised.

Well, it seems that there is some progress. It's slow, but at least we're 2 steps forward and only one back instead of 3 or 4 like we were doing. I'm not running off to Alaska this week anyway....

Gotta run – D needs me! Probably to keep the dog quiet so she can watch TV. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks, P...

So, who won anyway?

C

ps.... I saw you couldn't leave it alone over there at MTD..... LOL. Like picking at a wound, I keep getting sucked back in to see what's there. Nice post, you didn't have to give me credit but it was generous that you did. Hope he finds some peace and that she wakes up. Ughhhh, when I see the damage day after day..... sometimes I feel like my favorite "witch" Joan of Arc fighting against unwinnable odds.

'Night Jim Bob <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hello my ballerina friend!!!

And hello to you my favorite witch. Maybe we could be eachother for halloween. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

One thing that I am very much struggling with right now is that H wants to pretend that all is well and we can just sweep it all under the rug and pretend it didn't happen

Do you think this is so that he can continue with that way of life, or is it more that he feels badly and doesn't want to think about the things he did?

I'm sure that he feels badly although he doesn't express that. I think that it is more so that we can just go on. I know that that needs to happen, but other things keep coming up...like him going out for sushi and chat with a female friend...he knows I disapprove yet he does it any way. I told him if he'd bash me a little they'd have all the components that they need for an affair. To him it's ok. We had a deal about the particularly attractive chiropractor that he was seeing. He said he only had a couple of more times to go (this was about June) so we agreed...two more visits. This weekend, I found an appointment card of his that he is still seeing her. Things like that. How can I let go of it when deception and lack of care for my feeleings is still going on?

He is getting some counseling on his own and attending some SA meetings, (although he is doing this to pacify me) and he is adamant about keeping that all private to him.

Could you negotiate that he not tell you about other's stories if he is afraid of violating confidentiality, but that he tell you a little about how he felt about the meeting? At first I would really press H for all the details. But after a while, I just asked how he felt about the meeting, and if he had any big lightbulbs go off. Usually that would lead to other conversation, but not always.


Well firstly, he said that his C told him not to discuss it with me. That bothers me since this is all about what he has done to me/us and because he is only going to pacify me. It doesn't help me to hear "Its private". Hell - his whole personal life has been "private" for much of our marriage, it's part of the problem. He lives by the don't ask-don't tell way of life. I'm sure you get the newsletter, I found this timely....

10. Just One Last Thing...
by Steven W. Harley, M.S.
============================================
If you are seeing an &#8220;Individual Counselor,&#8221; be sure to let him/her
know that you are on a team and all advice or guidance of any kind
is to be made with that in mind. I have found all too many times
that an Indivudual Counselor helps you become a better individual.
If you are single, then that&#8217;s fine. However, if you are on a
team (a.k.a. married), then being an individual can break up your
team.

Something to think about.


Now, on the other hand, he knows that I talk to you and others, and he knows about the COSA group. He is telling me that my discussions with you are private and intimate and therefore it is the equivalent of an affair. He did this back in April with a friend of mine that knew about the "discovery", he told me she also was an EA. I can't make him understand that it isn't at all the same thing....its support and friendship. He says that is all his internet girlfriend was (of course mixed in with RC and SF) but still the same to him. I don't think he truly believes it, just uses this kind of nonsense to manipulate me. So he has said that either I cease communication with you or he will Plan A me. Please. When I call you "girlfreind", I don't mean it like that, you know? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Don't want to mislead you and end up loke Hofs and HT.

Of course he was working on the other recovery things like accountability and honesty at the same time. And the all important not checking out other women!!

Which obviously isn't happening as stated above...

Of course there's no trust. That's only natural. And you would be silly to trust him without evidence that he is trustworthy. That takes about 2 years to reestablish. Did I ever post those guidelines for you?


I don't think you did. When things like the chiropactor agreement and others still happen in a what-she-doen't-know-won't-hurt-her mode, there never will be trust.

Also, resentment comes from things that are not addressed. And it 's not. Going to SA is great. But until the other aspects of recovery are in order you will feel resentment.


Perhaps this is it....there is much unadressed material.

Yeah, that's a big part of it. Forgiveness gets a lot of press, but it should come at the end of the recovery process. Forgiveness denotes writing off a debt that cannot be paid. In the case of infidelity, there should be restitution first.

I feel this too. He and I are so polarized on some of this.

For reconciliation one (of the many) changes that must happen is that we need to be more integrated as a family. Not him and his v me and mine. That is how the old marriage was and if there is to be a "new marriage" then this is one of my must-haves.

Hey!!!!! No fair copying off my paper!! That's my line and I had it first!


Yes maam. I know that. Our issues are very similar and I like the "new marriage" concept. I wasn't stealing it. Please don't beat me up, I'll never do it again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Oh - I borrow your S&D too.

I've been thinking a lot about this too. Have you discussed it at all? How does he react? It's part of the meeting needs thing. He's gotta do it if he wants to have the M

He reacts defensively, and it brings out his LB's. I really don't know who to go about making this happen for him. The way I see it is that he has to initiate it and stick with it...he says that they don't reciprocate it, but after four years of the non-care to them, how can he expect them to just trust after a few days of trying. He has more people than just me to rebuild with.

First we have to know his willingness. Then we can talk about the how.

His words say that he is willing...his actions don't put the work in,or enough of it.

I agree!!! I think most conventional C's are way off base on the control thing. Ideally you would negotiate to get this need met.


I need much help with negotiating for a need. He is controlling and manipulative and I need to make sure that it is done right.

You're one step ahead of me. H wasn't even faithful when we were dating.


I'm sorry to hear that, but I don't think anyone is ahead. Maybe you are ahead because yours actually sees the SA. Personally, I don't care who wins as long as we "place".

Relationship Talk . We just shortened it at P's thread. I'll be curious to see how fast it spreads through MB!


Ahh, well I'm not sure I ever would have guessed that, but I understood it's meaning from it'scontext. They'll have it on the abbreviations list in no time.

Thanks for your help. Sometimes I feel like I am just wasting my time, of course what difference does it make since I have no desire to be with someone else. Maybe just protecting my sanity.

Thanks pal (can't call you girlfriend anymore <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ).

PasDeDeux

<small>[ September 05, 2002, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: PasDeDeux ]</small>

Hi C,

You stay up too late! I do too &#8211; when wife is out of town. Usually it&#8217;s bedtime somewhere around 10-10:30, then up at 5:30 am. When wife&#8217;s gone, it&#8217;s like I get a second wind and shoot for bedtime by midnight. And sometimes fail!

P.... why does that always feel like I'm talking to myself????

I wondered! I&#8217;ve had a couple of times that I started to sign off as M, or even Mike, but then remembered that I was mystery man here, and not just writing e-mails to sailing buddies.

but then went to meet H for some MB homework. Chapters 7 and 8 in HN/HN.... it was a really fun conversation. UAT really was UA Met at Perkins had a snack and a good time. 2 1/2 hours. Not bad.

Well congrat&#8217;s. 2-1/2 hours could have been a VERY long time if conversation were not good. Wife, OTOH, called me last night at 10 minutes till 7 pm, and started off conversation with &#8220;we&#8217;re leaving for dinner at 7 pm.&#8221; So toss some time in there for D to talk with her (which was funny, because D had just finished her homework and got plugged into TV set, and was about as attentive to W as a doorknob!), and not much time left for me.

Man!!! I don't know how you kept your jaw from bouncing off the floor!!!! I'm way impressed, with both of you!!!!

Actually, I think I was driving at the time. Maybe that&#8217;s how I kept it together &#8211; watch the road.

Sorry but no, Harley says one of the signs that you encourage dishonesty is if you wait until your spouse is "emotionally ready" to hear something, or if that is when you want your spouse to be honest with you. Honesty either is or it isn't. It's not conditional.

Yeah, I thought as much. But I also wonder if the rules don&#8217;t get bent a bit (OMG &#8211; &#8220;modified&#8221;) if the recipient of the honesty is struggling with depression at the moment.

But I think I have to rephrase. It's not the whining on a bad day. We all do that. It's 2-fold. The whining and not ever doing anything to change the situation. The I'm so powerless and there's nothing I can do thing really gets to me.

Sounds like he needs a personal coach, or a mentor.

I think there's some intellectual comprehension going on. Practice is confined to work and times with me, the stresses of family life aren't there.

Sounds like he could kick up the work practice a bit more. Practice and perfect that one, while the other pressures are off.

He told me tonight that one of the things he doesn't talk about with me is his ambitions, because he thinks I'll think they're foolish. Which I wouldn't, BTW.

Ok, C, don&#8217;t take this wrong, but I suspect he&#8217;s probably a bit intimidated by you. Or your ambition. I mean how long ago (short time) did you make the decision to do life coaching? And where are you today? I mean, you&#8217;re a doer. I think you have a vision, and then do everything in your control to get there pronto. And you work like crazy trying to influence the things you don&#8217;t outright control. Gee, this is maybe starting to sound like a bad thing. Sum it up &#8211; I suspect his ambition falls short of your level, and your resolve to achieve.

I think it&#8217;s something you probably need to nurture, or work with him on to show it&#8217;s safe, to show interest. Gee, it&#8217;s that part of Openness &#8211; something about the individual and their thoughts &#8211; that I&#8217;m dying to hear from my W. It&#8217;s sharing from the real person. One of those things like views on a counselor methods, or feelings about something, that draw us closer to that person. It&#8217;s probably the vulnerability of sharing that makes it special. Ramble&#8230;.

I'm not running off to Alaska this week anyway....

Actually, it&#8217;s starting the rainy period there. Dark, grey, gloomy, damp, and starting to get cold spells. Live there for four years &#8211; remember?

So, who won anyway?

Kelly, who has an incredible voice. I was worried that the teen girls were going to vote in Justin, who&#8217;s a heartthrob to them, but not in the same league regarding singing. Hey, months ago she was a waitress, and him a door-to-door salesman.

Hope he finds some peace and that she wakes up. Ughhhh,

She probably will &#8211; in about two years.

P

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by persistant:
<strong>

Ok, C, don&#8217;t take this wrong, but I suspect he&#8217;s probably a bit intimidated by you. Or your ambition. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ha-ha-ha! ROTFLMA! Are you sure you're describing C? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Actually, it&#8217;s starting the rainy period there. Dark, grey, gloomy, damp, and starting to get cold spells. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are cold spells covered in the Second Order of Wicca? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

In the need of a good laugh....HoFS

And hello to you my favorite witch. Maybe we could be eachother for halloween.

Oh wouldn't that be fun!!! H doesn't "let" me be a witch for Hallowe'en, he says you cannot be something you are in real life. So last year I did the harem thing and the year before the black cat. So, I think it 's time for a ballerina!!

I know that that needs to happen, but other things keep coming up...like him going out for sushi and chat with a female friend...he knows I disapprove yet he does it any way.

Well, see there's the thing. He is still living a lifestyle with the same conditions under which the infidelity occurred. Until that is addressed and changes, there is no recovery, no ability to trust, and no forgiveness. I think that's where your resentment is coming from. That although the cheating that you knew about is in the past, the conditions of his life are the same. It's like a slap in the face to you over and over.

This weekend, I found an appointment card of his that he is still seeing her. Things like that. How can I let go of it when deception and lack of care for my feeleings is still going on?

Well obviously you can't. Not only is he doing things that are frightening and offensive to you, but he is breaking agreements.

Could you negotiate that he not tell you about other's stories if he is afraid of violating confidentiality, but that he tell you a little about how he felt about the meeting? At first I would really press H for all the details. But after a while, I just asked how he felt about the meeting, and if he had any big lightbulbs go off. Usually that would lead to other conversation, but not always.
[/b]

Hell - his whole personal life has been "private" for much of our marriage, it's part of the problem. He lives by the don't ask-don't tell way of life. I'm sure you get the newsletter, I found this timely....

Funny you should bring that up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> my MB course chapter for the week is Honesty and Openness. There is no place for privacy in marriage. My only qualification to that statement is where one spouse is abusive. I will not tell anyone to put him/herself into the path of abuse. Anger needs to be dealt with before other things can be addressed.

10. Just One Last Thing...
by Steven W. Harley, M.S.
============================================
If you are seeing an &#8220;Individual Counselor,&#8221; be sure to let him/her
know that you are on a team and all advice or guidance of any kind
is to be made with that in mind. I have found all too many times
that an Indivudual Counselor helps you become a better individual.
If you are single, then that&#8217;s fine. However, if you are on a
team (a.k.a. married), then being an individual can break up your
team.

Something to think about.


Yeah, I read that too. It's my big fear about H and finding a new C, the other one was on board with that concept. Oooohhhh, that's where he is now.... meeting with new C.

Now, on the other hand, he knows that I talk to you and others, and he knows about the COSA group. He is telling me that my discussions with you are private and intimate and therefore it is the equivalent of an affair.

Oh for goddess sake!!! He cannot have it both ways... insist on his privacy and that you should trust him to do what's right, and then tell you that you cannot have friends. There are few things that upset me the way hypocrisy and double standards do!!

He says that is all his internet girlfriend was (of course mixed in with RC and SF) but still the same to him. I don't think he truly believes it, just uses this kind of nonsense to manipulate me.

Well, here's the thing. If he were on board with all the elements of recovery. Agreeing to change the conditions of his lifestyle, meet needs, avoid LBers, create a lifestyle that makes you both happy at the same time, accountability......

THEN and only then, I think that you would each need to negotiate for the friends and the relationships that you have, how and what information you share with others. BUT, until you are working as a cooperative team, and while he is continuing to do things that damage the M, your need for support and friendship is essential. IF he were the H you thought he was going to be, you wouldn't have the same need for another outlet. AND if he were the H you thought he was going to be, he would be willing to discuss openly with you what it is about your friends that he finds uncomfortable.

Right now, I suspect that it's the idea that you might gain strength from your contacts, especially here, and that it will challenge his ability to control and manipulate you. He's threatened by the concept of you setting boundaries and taking care of you.

H and I have had this discussion all too many times. As you know he's accused me of having affairs with any male that emails or calls me. And I struggle with this. I don't want to do things that he finds offensive or uncomfortable. But, at the same time, he needs to address the control and the other issues that drive that paranoia. I think Harley and I might disagree on this. I had a small conversation with him about it, but didn't get a real definative answer.

When I call you "girlfreind", I don't mean it like that, you know? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Don't want to mislead you and end up loke Hofs and HT.

Oh good, I just don't think I can get that sailor suit zipped anymore!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Of course there's no trust. That's only natural. And you would be silly to trust him without evidence that he is trustworthy. That takes about 2 years to reestablish. Did I ever post those guidelines for you?


I don't think you did. When things like the chiropactor agreement and others still happen in a what-she-doen't-know-won't-hurt-her mode, there never will be trust.


Ok, I really need to save these in Word for further use!!

Trust is bebuilt by following the policy of Radical Honesty. Telling your spouse all you know to be true about yourself.

1. Past Honesty history especially mistakes and weaknesses
2. Present Honesty plans and schedule events of your day
3. Future Honesty plans and objectives
4. Emotional honesty your reactions and feelings to the events of your life.
5. Complete honesty, not leaving spouse with a false impression about anything.

In addition, to rebuild trust he needs to demonstrate that when there are opportunities to be dishonest or to hurt you that he does not take that chance. This is done by keeping you up to date with all the things listed above.

For example: Let's say that something comes up and an afternoon that he had scheduled to be at work is suddenly free. It's unlikely that you would find out, and he could take the afternoon and indulge in his past recreations. But instead he calls you immediately with the plan change and tells you exactly where he'll be and what he'll be doing.

Accountability is a big part of this. He should be giving you a detailed daily schedule. You should be able to reach him where he says he will be at any time.

As he does these things over and over eventually.... in about 2 years.... you'll find that you can trust him again. Not blindly, that's not a good idea ever, but in a safer healthier way.

But as you can see it takes a real committment on his part to validate the harm and pain he has caused and a willingness to make amends to you. Without that, you have no reason to trust him.

Perhaps this is it....there is much unadressed material.

He's telling you every day that he is not willing to make amends for the things he's done, and yet he wants you to take him back with open arms. Resentment is your emotions' way of protecting you from further harm from someone whom you have reason to fear.

Oh - I borrow your S&D too.

But the difference is that H had to agree to and do some very well defined things before I would agree to see him. If he wasn't doing those things, or if he stops, or if his behavior reverts to controlling and demanding, I don't see him.

He reacts defensively, and it brings out his LB's. I really don't know who to go about making this happen for him.

You can't make this happen for him. He needs to decide that having you in his life and as his wife is worth the effort to make the changes necessary. He needs to decide that he will meet your needs... all of them. Until he does that, it won't happen.

he says that they don't reciprocate it, but after four years of the non-care to them, how can he expect them to just trust after a few days of trying. He has more people than just me to rebuild with.

I swear they must be twins!!! Yep, heard that one many times. Gee... ya think that when you yell and insult and hit and throw their tv out the door onto the sidewalk that just maybe they aren't going to want to be buddy buddy with you???

He's been doing some reading that he should have done long ago, and I think there's some awareness coming alive.

His words say that he is willing...his actions don't put the work in,or enough of it.

Then you need to decide if you can stay with the meet needs and avoid LBers plan, or if the pain and the frustration are getting to be too much. If you are finding that you LBer or that your feelings for him are slipping, then you should be thinking Plan B. Personally, I think if the A's are over and he's not willing to do recovery, then it's time.


I need much help with negotiating for a need. He is controlling and manipulative and I need to make sure that it is done right.

You can't negotiate with someone who is dishonest and controlling. Negotiation requires being on the same side and putting the M ahead of getting what you want. He's not there.

Thanks for your help. Sometimes I feel like I am just wasting my time, of course what difference does it make since I have no desire to be with someone else. Maybe just protecting my sanity.

My desire to be with no one else is my belief that it wouldn't be any better. Alone? Maybe. But dive in again?? Huh uh. But that doesn't mean that you have to put up with his bad treatment.

See ya!!!!

C

Hi P <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You stay up too late!

TWO glasses of diet pepsi at Perkins <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> But I''m sleeping soooo much better these days. I usually can do with about 5 or 6 hours. And then maybe one night a week more.

Well congrat&#8217;s. 2-1/2 hours could have been a VERY long time if conversation were not good.

Yeah it was lots of fun. Kinda rambled around the subject matter. Laughed, held hands, drank too much caffeine!!

Wife, OTOH, called me last night at 10 minutes till 7 pm, and started off conversation with &#8220;we&#8217;re leaving for dinner at 7 pm.&#8221;

Ouch. When H travelled, I was his wake up call. You could do that if you know what time she needs to get up. The first voice he heard every day was me telling him I loved him. (And we won't discuss what he was doing the nights before cuz I'll just get <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> )

Yeah, I thought as much. But I also wonder if the rules don&#8217;t get bent a bit (OMG &#8211; &#8220;modified&#8221;) if the recipient of the honesty is struggling with depression at the moment.

<GASP> You said the evil "M" word!!!!!! Interesting thought though. But then Harley has a different view on depression than the rest of the world too. No surprise there. So I still think he would advocate honesty, with gentleness.

Sounds like he needs a personal coach, or a mentor.

Oh yeah!!! But first he needs to deal with the paranoia and the everyone's out to get me issues. Hard to work with a mentor when you're accusing them of taking advantage of you, hiding things from you, and just waiting for a chance to hurt you somehow. That stuff needs real help. After that I think he would be a prime candidate for career coaching.

Sounds like he could kick up the work practice a bit more. Practice and perfect that one, while the other pressures are off.

That's why I suggested that he talk to the C about that stuff. It's part of the whole picture of twisted reality.

Ok, C, don&#8217;t take this wrong, but I suspect he&#8217;s probably a bit intimidated by you. Or your ambition. I mean how long ago (short time) did you make the decision to do life coaching? And where are you today? I mean, you&#8217;re a doer. I think you have a vision, and then do everything in your control to get there pronto. And you work like crazy trying to influence the things you don&#8217;t outright control. Gee, this is maybe starting to sound like a bad thing. Sum it up &#8211; I suspect his ambition falls short of your level, and your resolve to achieve.

Sigh................... Hoffs and I had this conversation a while ago. If you get that impression just reading, imagine how much worse it is in person. I'm like Tigger on Angel Dust!! I have an energy field that literally knocks out electronic stuff. See, and that's why I'm certain that I'm unfit for life in marriage. I intimidate husbands. Sure they like me when I'm a girlfriend, I'm a great trophy date.... but in the same house? I'm intimidating.

I think it&#8217;s something you probably need to nurture, or work with him on to show it&#8217;s safe, to show interest.

Right. And I need to learn to let him work at a pace that works for him. But doing nothing and whining is not working, nor is it a pace. The things that he's doing with the C are going slowly, and that's fine. I'm ok with it as long as he's engaged in the process. That I can be supportive and encouraging of. So maybe that's how I show that it's safe to talk to me about things. I think he was genuinely surprised when I said I would be thrilled if he went for a promotion.

Gee, it&#8217;s that part of Openness &#8211; something about the individual and their thoughts &#8211; that I&#8217;m dying to hear from my W. It&#8217;s sharing from the real person. One of those things like views on a counselor methods, or feelings about something, that draw us closer to that person. It&#8217;s probably the vulnerability of sharing that makes it special. Ramble&#8230;.

You hit the nail on the head. Vulnerability.

Actually, it&#8217;s starting the rainy period there. Dark, grey, gloomy, damp, and starting to get cold spells. Live there for four years &#8211; remember?

That's a rhetorical question right? You didn't think I forgot did you? Yeah, rain and gloom is icky. But I like the idea of less civilization. Oh wait, I have boys, I can just go to the dinner table for that!

I was worried that the teen girls were going to vote in Justin, who&#8217;s a heartthrob to them,

I must be getting old, I didn't think he was that cute. Now Vin Diesel...... Did I mention he's gorgeous?

C