Okay. I haven't done Plan A for very long, but it's not getting me any results at all. My H likes the fact, I'm sure, that I'm not yelling, being confrontational, upset, etc..and I'm talking in a nice, calm voice. However, he seems to be accelerating his determination to separate himself even more from myself and our 2 kids (moved out 2 months ago). Now he has a place to live and is rushing a formal separation agreement. I've told him I'd love the opportunity to meet his needs, etc etc and I love him. The kids and I would welcome him back in our lives and I know I could make him happy, etc., but it's like he's on a fastrack and one the train's on the tracks..he'll be off! He's really keen to move into his new place and has plans for it already. And, he doesn't want to wait at all to file for the legal separation. I know that will benefit me and the kids as we'll have child support payments, but to me I'd rather have coasted longer hoping that Plan A might have worked and he re-think what he's doing. Keep in mind I'm NOT positive there's an A going on.

My question today is....even though he's initiating legal stuff and soon wants us to 'divy' up the household items and move all his stuff out (that will be awful), do I continue with Plan A??? Or.....do I right away initiate Plan B??? And, does Plan B work if there's no A??

Anyone with any experience or advice out there, please write. I appreciate it so much. Thanks!!

Kimmy1,

I am sorry you are going through this right now. Is your H still involved with OW? Is he still in the fog? I think every situation is different when it comes to Plan A/B and whether or not to do both. You should read the post from wucus, titled "I disagree with the Harley's no plan A ever". That post has a lot of different opinions on plan A/B and why or why not and how long. It is posted in three different forms, Gen Ques., Plan A/B, and Just Found Out. So there are a lot of opinions between the three, and hopefully something there will help you.

DU

Well..I don't KNOW if he's having an A. I've never known for sure. In another thread of mine I talk about thinking he was having an A with a co-worker, but I don't think he is now. I just don't know what to think.

But...I'm so emotionally tired now. It's almost 9 weeks since he's been gone and I'm so tired of it. I just feel that he's cruising on this fast track and it's all working for him and each day I'm faced with a new hell to deal with, and all I get back from him is just more reinforcement that he doesn't want me, or our life, and he's excited to move on.

I decided yesterday I couldn't do it any more. I'm not doing Plan A now. I don't know if it's a mistake or not, but I just can't do it any more. It's too hard. I am doing Plan A for myself..trying to get my own life with the kids going again, but I'm not doing Plan A with him anymore. It's just too hurtful. I can't handle it. I've decided to only have contact and conversation with him when I need to, and to just respond to his questions, or a quick discussion of any kid stuff. It's too hard to talk to him and be animated because then he leaves and I just break down. I've decided I'm at the "if you love them, let them go" stage and if he doesn't come back..his loss. I will have to just move on.

I have read the 'disagree with Harley's Plan A' thread and it is good input. Does anyone out there who feels like I do own or has read that 'Tough Love Book'? I wonder if that would be something that I could handle more. I can't get to a bookstore for a few days and wonder if there are some highlights I should know.

I feel like if my H doesn't want me, then that's it. His loss. I can't keep up any hope..it's too hard to be disappointed.

well, I'm no expert but I would say stay in Plan A for longer if you can do it without LBing.

Keep in mind Plan A is about you and for you. Don't judge its effectiveness of whether or not your H comes back. For now just do it, be patient, sometimes these things may take months.

Look at the big picture. What is a few months in the grand scheme or your marriage?

re-read the stuff on this website! I do every so often for a reminder or to see things in a new light.

good luck.

-just my 2 cents

Hi. Well. Today I feel totally depressed. My mother-in-law called today as my H took our kids to their house last night to celebrate her birthday. Very hard for me..first 'occasion' I wasn't at. Anyway, she said my H opened up to them for the first time in a long time and bottom line...all the 'things he didn't like about me' during our marriage (but NEVER told me..continued to tell me he loved me, etc right up until the day before he left) just built up to be so much that he's so far gone that his Mom told me he'll never be able to 'come back' emotionally to me. I said yes..but he never told me so how fair is that? I said now we know all that I'm willing to work really hard to make our marriage work, and now he's said this if he can be honest we can work through it. At least try, for the kids. She said there's no hope, and I should just get on with me life. I said if all the little regular day to day things add up like that to him, and he's willing to throw away 14 years of marriage without even trying, he'll just probably keep repeating this cycle. Especially as he's stopped therapy (his therapist told him he's fine. I wonder what stories he told her). His Mom said that may be so, but I should get on with my life.

I just now feel so sad and down and I know Plan A is for me and I'm trying, but this is just ripping my heart apart. Every day is a hell. I couldn't even look at him last night when he came to get the kids. It's just too depressing to look at someone you know has no feelings of love for you. And I look at him with love as my H that I planned to be with forever...

Hi Kimmy -- I haven't got your whole story, but I did want to let you know something. You don't know exactly what your WH is telling his therapist or his mother, so I wouldn't listen to them/they do not know the whole story.

What's probably happening here is that your WH feels such incredible guilt that he is paralyzed by the idea of doing the work it will take to get the two of you back on track. This is my situation and the situation of many here. It seem so big and running away seems to them to be a quick and dirty answer. You are right when you say that if they run without dealing with things now they will only take their problems to their next relationship. Unfortunately, they cannot see that and certainly won't listen to being told that.

It's very, very frustrating I know. All you can do is focus on you. I know when people here told me that at the beginning of this journey (it's been almost 9 months now) I thought "easier said than done" and "what exactly do you mean".

I think what it means (or at least has meant for me) is to accept that I cannot change WH or the situation. My pattern in this relationship had been to take control and now I needed to let go of that (very hard). I also needed to think hard about what things I could change in my life that would help me let go in other areas and embrace pieces that I had let slide (e.g. bad relationship with one of my sister's, losing track of friends, etc).

I'm not sure I can give you the best advice or a roadmap for what you should do, but I do want you to know that you are not alone.

Kimmy -
I don't know your whole story either, but I do agree with Unsure. My H is also doing the same thing. He doesn't believe enough in my love for him that I am willing to stick by him & make the marriage work. To him the answer is cut & dry - run like he!! To stay would mean he would actually have to work at repairing the damage he caused for not only me, but to himself.

Also - your H won't tell both sides of the story. He is angry and full of guilt so the story never comes out the way it should. I know early after my own PA, I blamed all of my problems on my H - if you had listened to me, if you loved me, if you ... blah, blah, blah. Well - guess what - after I owned up to my own issues, I did everything I could to let him know how sorry I was for his pain. By then - it was too late, the damage was done & my H never healed. He keeps reliving his pain through his own A's. Only now because I'm a little wiser am I able to forgive as much as I have. It's only because recovery never really took place. Don't give up on your H. Use the boards here & go to counseling for yourself. It'll help you through this.

Vee (HUGS)

Thanks for your reply. I KNOW he's probably been telling stories to his Mom and therapist, and to be honest..it doesn't matter, because every complaint of me he's told me, I've shared with everyone as part of using my friends as a support group, and as a 'therapy' for myself. I know I made mistakes and maybe I didn't see them until now and I am willing to work on them and my H knows that. But..I also know that I was a damn good wife and I loved and supported him every day and went without so he could have. I complimented him, told him how proud I was of him, etc etc. Any interests he wanted to pursue I encouraged, and joined in also if he wanted us to do stuff as a family. We were the 'blessed, lucky' couple..and we talked about that so often. This whole thing has been like he woke up one day and his brain blew apart and he decided he didn't like this life and wanted a new one, and hey...guess I'll blame Kim because it MUST be her that's making me unhappy. As my doctor even said..for someone who was and claims to be such a devoted father, why won't he even try for the kids. My neighbours (close friends of ours) said..'Kim..you don't even have a good story to tell that led to this'.

The whole thing is just a shock and I know Plan A is for me in the longrun, and I'm trying..I really am. It's just so hard to every day get hit with some new info that just makes getting ahead and moving forward impossible.

I wish he'd stayed here and given me a chance to do Plan A in person. I might have had a fighting chance then. Now I just feel why bother, as mentioned in my previous posts in this thread (my initial thread is in 'just found out'..the thread is called 'devastated but not giving up..') I feel that there's no point and I should just forget it and move on and get the house packed up and all our financial etc stuff finished. Then I'll move on. My friends say I'm too nice for this to happen to without there being a good reason. I hope I get a sign soon. I absolutely do want this marriage to continue, but now he's even told his Mother it's over I feel like it really is, even though I know it's just his quick and easy out.

I'm sure he can't even begin to think of 'work' to make a marriage a success. I'm sure he thinks it should be eutopia on it's own and so if he doesn't love me anymore, why would he bother working on it. What's the point? That's why he'd told me he has no interest..why would you want to reconcile with someone you have no feelings for.

All I know is that I see so many unhappy couples out there who are nagging and complaining to each other every day. Why are they still together and my husband has left me? Are all of us on this discussion site left because there's a reason we're going through this??? Seems to hard to believe. Maybe we just all fell in love with people who were deep down selfish and immature. I know that sounds harsh, but how else do you explain it?

If you can Plan A without LBing your husband then you should still do it.

When you don't see your husband, keep yourself , busy, busy, busy, also do things good for you, have fun, exercise, try new hobbies, old hobbies, hang out with friends (but don't date or anything obviously)

When you are around your husband, be the best person you can be.

As Steve Harley told me (when I told him that I barely see my WW because we are separated), it is like going to the gym. If you don't go every day or every other day, you should still put in your best effort when you do go.

Same thing with our WS, if we work a little here and there even if it is not often, over time we will "get in shape" and "muscles" may even build.

If your WH is LBing you to the point that you are ready to LB back, take yourself temporarily out of the situation. Either take a break (mini fun vacation) for yourself or if it is in the middle of a conversation with WH, don't try to educate him but simply be a good listener.

Just listen. Don't give him your 2 cents or opinion. If he asks you something that you don't agree with, tell him you understand that that is how he feels. You could even repeat to your WH what he is telling you (summarize) and ask him if you understand him correctly or if you are clear on what he is saying.

That way he doesn't feel that you are not listening, or disrespecting his thoughts/feelings, or trying to ignore him, while at the same time you are not compromising your position on things (you are just not telling your WH at that moment that you disagree and he's has problems, and he's an idiot etc.)

Being a good listener has a way of diffusing anger. When the anger is gone then you're less of a target, more of a friend, and then you are LB'd less too.

The only time I get to talk to my H now is when we are discussing our kids via e-mail or as he's dropping them off or picking them up. Tonight was Meet the Teacher night at school and I went for the first half and then my H came and I left. As I was telling him where the kids were in the school, and what time I'd booked our teacher interviews, he's already starting to walk away and just kind of paying half attention. This is how all our conversations, if you can call them that, go. So..I get so depressed and fed up that it's so hard to be uplifted and Plan A'ish with him. I just feel now that it's hopeless and if I'm so nice he's probably just going to think that I'm finally dealing with it and I'll be okay and so he can carry on with less guilt.

We don't have any conversations about our marriage any more, so I can't give my opinion or just listen to show I'm a good listener. The only conversations we have are the ones where he tells me what his next step will be..ie his new place, him wanting to get a legal separation, etc.

When I'm home, I do keep busy as I work and have 2 children, and have to basically do everything. All my H does is visit them or take them out when he sees them. I'm falling behind in everything as it's a huge workload on your own, as those of you out there alone with children know. I have been going out with friends at least once a week though and sometimes I enjoy it, sometimes I hate it. I'm going out tomorrow night with a bunch of friends and I'm dreading it. I'm just not in the mood and it's a 'fancier' affair and I just wish I hadn't bought the ticket. But..I need to do these things so will go. My H will be here with the kids. As far as dating goes..not even in my mindset yet. I was at the grocery store tonight and ran into a friend and she said ..'just move on..go forward'. Well..I'd love to, but I'm sorry, after 14 years of marriage I just can't turn off my love like that. I wish there was some button we could turn off but there isn't. I'm getting tired of people telling me..'Kim..you'll meet someone else' If only they knew what it was like to be in our shoes.

I'm just waiting for the next development to happen. I'm sure there's one just around the corner that he'll spring on me soon..ie..that he's gone to the lawyer, etc.

I do think most of his anger has gone now as he's been more mellow (actually, since I've been doing Plan A), but I don't want to be his friend..I want to be his wife and have him back home with us.

Thanks for your input. I'm just too depressed to be very receptive right now.

Just an update. I'm still sticking with Plan A, but I'm going to do a better job of it starting today. My H moves next weekend and it's been difficult for me to accept that. I read a really good post this morning with a line in it that read 'should your S love you?' and how you need to incorporate that into your plan A.

I think I hit rock bottom this past weekend and I don't want to get like that again. I need to get some plan going and I need to do it properly this time, for myself and to hope for a future with my H and myself.

Good for you, Kimmy! I hope you really have gone through the worst. Sometimes it takes that rock-bottom feeling to finally break through and realize you've got to do something for yourself, not him. At least that's the way it was for me - I had been thru so much he!! emotionally, did everything wrong, focused so much on WH, and only when I hit bottom did I realize there was no more "down" to go. Now I've finally let loose of WH. It's still hard - some days I cry & scream, and I think about him all the time, wondering if I'm doing the right things. But I've got a greater sense of stability now that I have let WH free to choose his own way & started focusing on myself.

Keep us posted and let us know how you're doing.

<small>[ September 26, 2002, 06:36 AM: Message edited by: SH94 ]</small>

SH94: Good to hear from you. Well..I worked tonight and when I came home I was pleasant and polite and said goodbye and see you tomorrow at hockey. He said yep, and left.

Now I'm on the computer and he was using it tonight and there's a reply there from a friend that is weeks in coming, and my original note was one full of hate and anger re my H, and I'm just hoping that my H didn't read through the whole note. If he did, it will be awful!! I'm just crossing my fingers.

Anyway, guess I'll find out soon enough as it will probably come out eventually. I had a better day today. I tried to keep busy all day and had my kids home for lunch, and then tonight at work barely talked about my marriage, which was good.

Tomorrow I work in the morning so hopefully the day will go okay and I can make it through the night without breaking down. I'll only briefly see my H as we meet for our son's hockey practice. I just want to get 'back on track'. Keep in touch..thanks!

Just wanted to write an update for today. Well..got no sleep last night..too worried about whether or not H got that note. Finally at about 4 a.m decided I couldn't do anything about it..I'd find out soon enough.

Anyway, pretty good day at work. No tears. Just felt 'mad' a few times and frustrated, but of course, no one knew that but me.

After school my kids both had friends over, so that was a good distraction, and tonight at hockey my H actually made eye contact with me at one point without breaking away after 2 seconds. I don't want to think it means much, but it was such a relief to be able to exchange pleasantries and briefly talk about how our son did at practice without feeling that huge tension and him not wanting to look at me and vice versa.

Off to bed now and hoping I can sleep. I work again tomorrow night but in the morning I'm going to H's parents for a coffee. Hoping it goes well. They've also told me recently to 'move on' and I hate that. It makes you feel that are willing to let you leave their family, even if that's not what they mean. I'm going to just be pleasant and try not to talk about H. Tomorrow night H is here with the kids and I'll be prepared for the usual disinterest in case tonight was a fluke. Plus, since he moves on the weekend, I'm sure he'll be packing but at least today was a better day! I don't know what I'd do without this site. It's amazing how just having this to 'vent' to has helped so much already. Last night I felt so sad knowing that there are so many of us going through such pain, but how lucky we were to have support as well.

Well, my H was here tonight as it was my last night at my current job. When I got home he told me he was using the computer and accidentally erased a file called 'Kim'. He was very sorry and unfortunately there was no way of getting it back..he had tried. Unfortunately this file had alot of info on, that I don't mind losing, but what I did mind losing was that I kept any nice/romantic e-mails that he had sent me over the years (not a lot) and now they were gone. Seems almost ironic, doesn't it. Gee..another part of him gone. It's upset me quite a bit.

But...so much for the eye contact I got at hockey last night. Tonight he did the usual race out the door..talk while getting his shoes on and not look at me.

He told me tonight he is planning on paying the first month's rent on this house when he gets reimbursed for an invoice he's waiting on payment for. He hasn't talked about the legal separation thing again since he first mentioned it about 2 weeks ago. He also hasn't asked for anything else to be done..ie..re-route mail, change bills, etc.. I did ask him if he needed anything like towels, and he said no, he was fine right now.

I don't know if him stalling our financial stuff is him not being sure, or him just not willing to face the work yet.

I was at his parents for coffee this morning and it was really strange. They didn't mention my H once and after I while I felt really uncomfortable. It was strange being at my in-laws and not talking about my H. I didn't stay as long as I'd planned to as it started to bother me.


The girls at work had given me a beautiful gift basket as a farewell gift and I tried to show him but he didn't seem interested. So..bit of a downer night I'm afraid. Off to bed now. Hopefully tomorrow will be better.

Thought I'd post an update even though no one replied to my last post. Today I didn't e-mail my H once, even about the kids. I think that's a first. I felt connected to him re e-mail even though it was mainly about the kids since I've been doing Plan A.

Today was a pretty good day. Had lots of errands to run and I only felt teary a couple of times and it was when I was shopping and would see couples hand in hand or with their kids (I'm sure you can all relate to that).

Starting next week it will all be different. After 2 & 1/2 months apart, I now have a Monday to Friday daytime job, so my H will no longer have to be here at night to watch the kids, and my H has his own place, and so the kids can go there. So..we'll see what happens as it will be different for him not being here 2x a week at night to cook the kids supper and be with them until I'm home at 9:45, and I'm wondering if not 'hanging out' here will make any difference. Of course, he will be able to take our kids to his place, but I'm hoping he'll miss our house.

Hope to hear from someone soon...?

You seem to be doing better.

I would not chase your H too much as it might drive him away further.

When you do talk, even though H just wants to talk about the business end of things and his new plans, try being his friend. Ask him about the other things in his life (work, friends, family) that you are/were? interested in.

When my WW first moved out and even now to a certain extent, she would only call or visit to talk about "business", getting her mail, her stuff, talking about finances, etc. I could have left it at that but I asked her about her life and listened to her. I tried to meet her needs if she let me.

While I'm no where near recovery, I have to say that my encounters with WW (even though few and far between) are much more friendly and positive now that my WW is not on some angry warpath about money, the new apartment, etc. I guess looking at it from our WS' point of view, changing your whole life can be stressful (new place to live, etc..)

Keep up your good work. Remember don't LB when around your H. Remember to keep yourself healthy physically and emotionally. Do things for you but don't date!!

I absolutely agree with something you said. A few of my friends (and my WW) have told me to just move on. How can I just throw away a relationship and love like that? It is not a button or a light switch that one can turn off just like that.

Plan A helps. If our WS's don't return and our M's are not given a chance at recovery, at least we'll know that we tried everything we had control over. We won't have regrets and what if thoughts someday like we would if we did just immediately moved on and got divorced.

I have to say the pain fades away.

I still miss my WW dearly though. I get lonely in my house all by myself. I wonder how she is doing, what her day was like etc. Honestly, it is so sad that I lost not just my wife but my best friend.

Who knows what happens from here?

Thanks for your comments. I must say the most upsetting thing is that fact that my H just left me and the kids. How heartbreaking is that. It's so selfish to not think of all of the ramifications of what he's done. At the beginning of this separation all I could think about what me and how devastated I was. Now all I can think about is my poor kids, and how rotten this whole situation is for them.

I don't want to drive my H away and I'm trying not to LB, but I'm so sad and heart broken that he doesn't want me any more. After 2 & 1/2 months apart I thought for sure he might at least miss me, but he just seems to be more and more adjusted to life without me. Hard to believe as we were always talking about how blessed we were to have each other, so I don't understand how we got here.

I understand your feelings and have felt the same way many a time.

Becareful not to focus too much on what your H is doing and become too resentful against him. While I don't agree with what he is doing either, if you want to do everything you can to help your M, focusing on how terrible he is (while true) may just make you more bitter toward him to the point of you LBing him. I know it is easier said then done, but honestly thinking about the negatives about him won't help your M (though it may help you get over him if that is what you want.)

Wondering how you both got into this situation is a great question for you to think about. Steve Harley told me that finding out how we got into this situation will be the way to get out of the situation. By discovering our mistakes as a spouse and not fulfilling our role, we can change and become a better person/spouse. While we are not to blame for the A in any way (it is WS's choice), we have contributed to the relationship's climate and other problems in the M.

So since we can only control ourselves, we should. We should make ourselves better people. Change ourselves by learning about what we could have done better as a spouse (for one thing.) This is beneficial because 1) our WS may see the changes and when A dies, we will be a more attractive choice and 2) if A doesn't die and/or we move on/get divorced, we will have at least started the healing process and started figuring out what our part in the failure of the M was so it is less likely to happen again in any future relationship.

Thanks for your comments. I'm trying hard to focus on me, not my H. But...it's so hard doing Plan A towards him because by being friendly, etc., it's almost like we're 'happy' for them and condoning what they've done!