I tend to agree with CoffeeMan Neil that this is somewhat of an excuse - YOU won't forgive me, so I CAN'T come back. I know how hard it is for you to Plan B, but you can't let her use these types of excuses and try and blame you for her own behaviour and situation. Of course you won't forgive her immediately, but if she dumped OM that would be a good start wouldn't it!

How was the weekend, did you have the kids with you?

Sorry, I'm not much help as usual, but know that we're out here supporting and thinking of you.

Lisa

Thanks Lisa,

I had a pretty good weekend. The girls wanted a sleepover (can you imagine a single dad with three girls who believe they are already teenagers having a sleepover <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) so a friend of theirs stayed overnight on Friday. They just played and partied. In the end I had to tell them that 10yr olds should be asleep at 2am NOT doing makeup!

We went to see Lilo & Stitch Saturday and then did some food shopping (I normally use Internet Tesco which is a dream for me!).

I had a pretty bad, sad lonely saturday night which was when the texting started to WW. I wasn't in a good mood and again slipped into the texting without really thinking. I just needed a response, any kind of response. Saturday was another sleepover for the girls <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Sunday was quiet, a nice picnic and more gardening (as best I could). Then all three girls got totally hooked on "The Sims" and that was the end of the day!

I have the weekend to myself this weekend so am now thinking of what I have to/should do for myself!

I am trying to do Plan B now properly as Steve H said. Its too hard a struggle to keep interacting when its only pain.

Neil.

Neil,

Identify the triggers for your loneliness is a good thing so that you can plan ahead what to do and not going into depression. Join scheduled activities such as bowling league, golf leauge or any other "must go" type of activities. Even volunteering your day to the local zoo or library will help. You should join activities where you are surounded by adult & many people.

-rh-

Thanks Redhat, I am going to plan out a full weekend of activity to keep me busy and perhaps importantly keep me out of the house. This latter point is the hardest in the evenings. I shall probably have friends over and also take in some movies too.

Neil.

I know what you mean Neil - however full you make the day, you can easily slip into lonliness and upset during the evening. And I don't know about you, but however tired I am, I still seem to go to bed and find myself wide awake....

Well, the girls seemed to have good fun anyway, and you must make sure you do that too this weekend. Keep as busy as you can and make sure you plan something for Friday and Saturday night.

Can I ask what she said when you told her about the divorce? Was this before or after the "you won't forgive me comment?"

Lisa

Lisa,

She keeps saying that this is what she needs and that I have to do what I want to do. She wont enter into any conversation about the future (or even the current situation for that matter).

After being constantly hammered about how I had hurt her over and over these last few weeks (?) she angrily said "well I don't love you so divorce me then".

I have tried every option as suggested by both Relate and Steve H. I have been trying Plan B badly and am now doing it properly again as advised. I have told her that the divorce paperwork is going thru, that its what she wants and that I wont stop it. I am slowly feeling better about myself.

The divorce discussion went on before the "you cant forgive me" messages. I have been straight with the children also, I have explained what divorce means, that it is progressing. I felt it very important not to give them false hope of reconciliation. They have experienced to much this year to be lied to.

Strangely my Child Minder said my Wife had said to her that the Divorce will take months so she has time to make up her mind what she wants. No doubt this message was intended to get to my ears. My Relate Counsellor had an excellent point that my wife continually seemed to be living in perpetual "victim" mode, and that I was either forced into a "rescuer" mode when I would save her from cutting, hospital or drinking, or I would be put in the "persecutor" mode where I was always the bad guy, hurt her too much etc etc. OM2 is "rescuer" in that case. It was an interesting discussion and one that was spot on with her behavior.

Of course there's no simple resolution of it, so I am trying to stay Plan B, and move the divorce paperwork forward and be the best dad I can be.

Why'd you ask?

Neil.

I think I was just interested whether this was another case of you being the bad guy - "look he's divorcing me, he'd never forgive me" attitude. I'm sure it's all much more complex than that. When you pick up on people's stories half way through, you sometimes miss out on some of the things.

I can't imagine how difficult it is to do Plan B -whilst not the best of comparisons, NC with OM was incredibly difficult and continues to be hard. This based on 6 months of life not years of history. To have to cut out your W, partner, friend and mother of your children must be painful. I hope that it continues to get better for you, and as you say concentrate on you and being a good dad.

Yes, interesting comment from the childminder, and perhaps it shows that all is not lost. Don't build your hopes up, but other than the fact your W is sick, she's also in the fog with OM, at least she's not desperate to get out. As you said to me, there are people on this board who's stories you read where people go, DV and never look back. Hang in there for you. Protecter and persecuter is also an interesting thing. Is your W in IC or having specific C for her problems?

Lisa

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lisa in London:
<strong>Is your W in IC or having specific C for her problems?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really don't know now. I hope so for her sake, but obviously I don't know what she is doing regarding this or her meds anymore.

She'd stopped taking her meds just before she left and I made sure that she took them with her but I don't know if she had continued. Obviously that care is out of my hands now. She's probably reading this now as she has sent me a text saying that "someday I may learn how Plan A and B did more to push her away..."

Regards Neil.

I had to bag up and pass more of her things to her yesterday. She went into one about the hurt I have done (again) and so there is little hope.

My girls cried and cried when they came home after being there <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I have told her that I am totally broken now, that there is no contact, that I am in Plan B, that I have nothing left.

Neil.

Dear lisa in l

Despite what you may want to believe children NEVER get over a divorce. If you talk to people in their 70's who were children of divorce they will tell you how it still hurts. Yes children have to accept what selfish adults put them through but it colors their view for life.

I am so sorry for you Neil. I know how this hurts you so very much. You know you have done everything in your power, and also you know how WS say what they like when they like, with little true thought and understading. Don't give up hope, but continue with what you are doing and stay strong for yourself and the children.

I hope you have planned a full weekend - I am sure you don't feel like doing anything much, but do try.

LMH - I would not want to take over someone else's thread, but I can only go by personal experience, and speak as I find. I too am a child of divorce, but my mother didn't want to live with an unreliable alcoholic anymore - perhaps she should of done for the "sake of the children". I don't know how this may have "coloured my view for life", or what of. Alcoholoism? Perhaps. Never is a strong word to use, and whilst in an ideal and preferred world a typical family unit is the best option, this world is far from ideal. The point I make to Neil is that children are resilient and can survive and thrive if given love and support.

Lisa

<small>[ October 11, 2002, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

Neil,

I think the one thing to really remember is that most of the normal approaches such as MB, really aren't designed to deal with the mental issues your W is dealing with. Frankly, with her history of cutting and other things, I would be very frightened to leave the children around her. Her next step may be unbounded anger. Yet, it doesn't help the children much does it?

I was reading a post today from FreshStart addressed to Khyra. She talked about her counseling for the sexual abuse she was exposed to as a child. She made an interesting comment. She would come home angry, sad, and very difficult to deal with after the sessions. Apprently this went on until she got many issues settled.

Perhaps you could look at Khyra's post on the recovery section and post to FS. She is a very nice lady and she may be able to give you some insight. Also Khyra had the same issues. You really should post to both of them and perhaps they can help you understand better what is happening and what can happen. By the way, they are both WS's, surprised??? I'm not. One of the many other things I learned in reading here is how much sexual abuse really messes up adults although the abuse occured years ago.

Ignorance is definitely not bliss.

Must go. I hope that gradually you will feel better, and that your W will go back to counseling and get on her meds.

God Bless,

JL

Neil, your WW is angry and in denial and I have suspicions that OM#2 is feeding this anger and denial. She will not get well until she gets rid of OM#2. He is a scumbag, like most OM's, that cares nothing about destroying a M and a family, and is only concerned with his selfish needs.

Now I would like to suggest that you contact your solicitor and see if you can legally prevent the girls from going to their mother's. They are obviously being hurt tremendously when they go visit her and OM. You have enough evidence that your WW is not fit to parent her children. Forget about hurting her feelings, she brought this upon herself anyway, and protect your girls from further harm. I too am a father (divorced) who has custody of his two daughters and I can tell you that my daughters were suffering a great deal when I was allowing them to be exposed to the toxic environment that my xWW created in our home. My xWW did not care about exposing our D's to her lovers (some had criminal records <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) and did not accept the fact that she needed help to get rid of her drug abuse. One day I said to myself 'ENOUGH' and stopped the enabling of my xWW's behavior and fought for custody of our D's. It was the best decision of my life Neil, not only for the wellbeing of our D's but for mine as well. It took a divorce and losing custody of our D's for my xWW to crash and burn and get the help she badly needed to become a functional adult. So Neil, make the decision to fight for your children's wellbeing, it is your right and duty as a father.

I understand what you are saying Coffeeman, but in truth I cannot do that. My girls are getting stronger as each day passes. I am getting stronger as each Plan B/STBX day passes.

It is essential to me that the girls interact with their Mum. I do believe that the full reality will come, it will come when it is too late for our M and I am in a place like TJS (thejohnsmith) because I am now thinking along those lines.

Regards Neil.

How was your weekend Neil? Did you keep busy and do plenty? How were the girls when they came back?

Hope things are OK with you.

Lisa

Hi Lisa, thanks for checking in.

Weekend was quiet and lonely but I kept busy. Friday a friend came around for beer, pizza and "Black Hawk Down" really loud in my Home Cinema Room <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Saturday I decided to pack up all my WW's stuff and stick it in the garage for her to collect. I put everything in there that reminded me of her, porcelain, ornaments, wall stuff, photos (but not one of me), wedding rings (with letter that it was wrong for me to take them, have them or decide what to do with them), laptop, video camera, etc etc. House is now lacking that "cute female touch" and has reverted to "high tech dads and kids wunderland"! It is in truth a little soulless but a lot less painful. I suppose I am turning it from OURS to MINE now. I bought new lights for the Home Cinema Room (that I have now reclaimed - thanks to the advice from the In Recovery forum <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), the lounge and the Drawing Room. I'll probably electrocute myself putting them up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I had intended to see "Red Dragon" but just didn't find the time, and as you know the weather was so bad...

One thing I am doing badly is eating. I'm not eating properly I have now realised after seeing that the dishwasher had 4 plates and 8 cups for the last week <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> weight continues to drop!

The girls came home early on Sunday as they were bored. They always come home and start crying. Its like they cannot express how they feel to her now until they get into the house and see me. They told me that WW is no longer going to abuse therapy (just as the BPD book predicted) and that WW is never happy. Seems they struggled a lot this weekend. 2nd Twin is starting to say that she doesn't want to go <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

We had a good night and lots of laughs so they went to bed happy and slept well.

Neil.

Neil,

The next time have one for me, and you gatta like the sound of jet's flying thru the room. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Guy

Hi Guys, Argh another Vent...

You would think I've been hurt enough now wouldn't you but more **** comes crawling out of the woodwork.

On August 31st WW had arranged a day at Blue Water Shopping Mall (a huge Mall akin to several Macy's end to end) . It was a Saturday and she was "really" looking forward to it. Her words were that she was visiting two college friends there that she was studying English Literature with.

The night before was one of the "can't do this, you haven't supported me" cutting & drinking nights.

Well she called and told me friend one in the morning was a no-show but she had a nice time shoopping with the 2nd and having coffee.

I replied that I was sorry that she felt she couldn't continue. That was a bad move because she started on me for upssetting her and making her cry in front of friend 2.

Then she said that she was too upset to come home and that she would stay with this friend overnight at her place. She came back the following morning (and started on me) again.

Last night Friend number 2 emails WW to ask when are they going to "Blue Water" as they haven't arranged a date yet! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> WS's email is shut down so it bounces into mine.

So I did some snooping back over the receipts etc and yes two people were at Blue Water, but then there was also Hotel accomodation and a bottle of wine purchased...

Once more I am played for the fool. This sort of stuff is just breaking me, Harley was right about slipping into Plan B and starting to no longer care. Thats what is happening right now. I am beginning to no longer care at all.

Every attempt at reconciliation in my Plan A was rejected, now this, so my Plan B is firm and I see now what Harley was on about.

Ever onward. Neil.

Sorry Neil. So sorry. I'm at a loss for words.

She is in self-destruct mode. She is the only one who can stop it.

I am worried about the girls with her history. Didn't you have to work to keep the girls from seeing the cutting?

Remember my H tried to commit suicide when he was alone with the girls? What if she goes on a bender and realizes what her toilet of a life really is and tries to commit suicide or cut herself with them in her care? Worse yet, what if she leaves them in some strange man's care? I shudder to think but I don't think I would be allowing anything but supervised visits if it wer in my power. Isn't her hospitalizations and lack of therapy enough to warrant that in yours and the court's eyes?

Praying for you and your girls.
nursebetty

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nursebetty:
<strong>Didn't you have to work to keep the girls from seeing the cutting?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NB, on that I failed. The girls are aware of her cutting her arms, chest, and pubic area. I could get away with it for awhile but eventually it came out to them. I have explained to them at length in as best a way as I can why she is doing it. It appears that whilst she has been gone she has not done so. Remember that OM2 Svengali is controlling her now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>What if she goes on a bender and realizes what her toilet of a life really is and tries to commit suicide or cut herself with them in her care?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The girls have mobile phones. They can get me at any time. I do not believe that this will occur. There is only one thing I truly believe about my WW now and that is that she would see no harm come to our children.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Worse yet, what if she leaves them in some strange man's care?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We have a written visitation agreement and a statement of arrangements for children that states that this will not be done. Nor are they allowed into the care of her abusive parents. Nor are they allowed to stay with any partner I meet.

Should these be broken then I would see court advice.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Isn't her hospitalizations and lack of therapy enough to warrant that in yours and the court's eyes?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No not really, and under UK Law also unlikely. She has shown since leaving that she has stayed safe albeit in an environment I am not happy with.

I am more concerned with the significant detrimental affect such an action would have on the girls. Don't get me wrong One incident would be enough for me to seek help. I have stated that to WS and she knows I'll do everything to protect the children.

At present I am happy with the routine as is. Yes its hard for the girls but sadly they will have to learn to live with it.

Neil.