Well a little update for my situation.

After a long weekend of moving furniture and all sorts of other things, my W is now in her apartment. I initiated Plan B and feel really good about it too. She refuses to choose between me and the OM regadless of all I tried in Plan A.

It will be an interesting week to say the least. I feel good about this in many different ways too, I feel like I will finally have a chance to catch my breath and see how I really feel.

Just wanted to send out and updated and I'll keep you posted!

Make sure you gave her plan B letter ! & hang in there ... vent in here -rh-

double reminder...she needs the plan B letter to know that you still want her if she wants to come back...but that's it! after that letter no more communication. i mean you go dark, period exclamation point!

you don't answer telephone calls, e-mails or personal visits! for all intent and purposes she is no longer on this earth for you...not until she reaches a resolution as to her behavioral problems.
coach

You posted back here http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=024348, but never responded after taht.

Did you give MB a call?
Did you send a Plan B letter?

Hey All -

Sorry if this is long, first 1/2 is basic info and 2nd 1/2 is updates with a huge question:

Well as I am sure you can imagine, the last few days have been crazy! Bottom line, I am doing really really well. Confident in my decision and myself, looking forward to the future no matter what it may be. Feeling good and I know that moving into Plan B was not only necessary for her, but a HUGE necessity for me to get my thoughts and feelings in order. I am just spending a lot of time with God, family and friends sorting things out.

A Plan B letter was delievered to her and followed all of the guides set forth on this site. Sorry about the no-follow up on that one post. I didn't speak w/ Harley but did work w/ a local counselor who follows Harley's teachings pretty well. I know that in a situation like this money is no object, but I really could not afford the rate for a Harley session at that time. The counselor we saw pretty much followed the MB guide to a T and I agreed with it - it had 0 effect on my W. This was 2 1/2 weeks ago.

UPDATE:

W calls me last night, leaves a messege. Said she needs to talk and it is very important. She knows all of the no contact rules and guidelines set forth in the Plan B letter. I call her up since I figure it is one answer to either get a D or to drop all contact w/ the OM. (Keep in mind she just moved out Tuesday Morning and this call is Wed. evening.)

She said she has decided to agree to no contact (Yes!). But here is the questions I have. We continue to talk for quite some time, she explains she isn't ready to 'cut it off' until another week or two (huh?) and my answer was that I will continue to have 0 contact w/ her until her actions back up her works and she completley has NC w/ the OM.... PERIOD. But on top of this, I am having a difficult time really believing her desire and want to make this marriage work. Sure she said she would cut off contact, for that I am hopeful but I have heard lies from her before and I am wanting some proof, some backup to her claims.

A question I have is this... Is it too much for me to ask for some specific assurances about her willingness to work on the marriage? Things like:

- No contact of any kind now and forever w/ OM
- Give over all pictures, notes, mementos etc. to me so I can get rid of them
- Change email address & phone number
- Give me all passwords to email accts. etc., not so I can constantly check, but so that she knows she cannot hide anything
- Agree to further counseling

etc. etc. etc.

Nothing ridiculous or harsh, just realistic expectations I want to see if she is serious about this. In our talk last night, I mentioned destroying all pictures from her trip where she met the OM because theat place just reminds me of him and the situation. She said she didnt want to do that because she has so many great memories not linked to the OM about the trip. She agreed to all pics w/ him in it but said she doesnt want to get rid of them all. My point is that if a picture is worth more to her then our marriage - that isn't a marriage I want to be in.

I have not made an official list of these things, I am working on it now. And I will not share that list with her until she has proven and taken action on NC w/ OM.

Is this OK for me to do? Am I out of line here?

Yup, you are right and you are doing fine.

God Bless,

JL

Action speaks louder than words. If she was serious she would be breaking down your door to ask for your forgiveness and doing EVERYTHING to earn back your trust. The fact that she is negotiating with you about allowing her more time with the OM as well what pictures to keep of her and the OM sends a very clear message that she is not serious about rebuilding the marriage and that the OM has a higher importance to her than you. If anything her phone call to you showed that she was playing you and trying to keep you on a string in case her relationship with the OM fell apart. The p;oblem I see with Plan B is that she will continue her affair knowing for sure that you will be there to pick up the pieces if her affair fizzles out.

I so agree. Here is where she is trying to get through to me though, how do I respond?

1 - She is too busy, works double shifts at work to pay her bills and can't email the OM to tell him it is over. (Email is better then a letter since he lives in another country and a letter would take forever). She says she has no time and does not have a computer in her place so she can't email him until Monday.

2 - She says she needs to see me, hang out with me etc. because she is so depressed and feeling suicidal?!?!? Basically makeing it seem like if I dont hang out w/ her, she is so sad that who knows what will happen. She got furious when I mentioned calling 911 or her friends to go be w/ her.

Staying on track, but help is always great!

I beleive that one of the things you must do is to convey to your WW that every day that passes by, you are more determined NOT to settle for staying in a sham marriage, and that if she is just playing games to continue with her A, then there is nothing more to say.

Tell her that she can get a letter to the OM within 24 hours by using a courier service like FedEx. In fact, tell her to give you the letter so you can read it to confirm that she is indeed breaking it off and you will call FedEx to pick up the letter . See what she will say when you suggest it. ??????

I have a similar situation to you. My WBF did the same thing. When I have started plan b, he called me the next day 10 times but I didn't pick up his calls. He kept on sending me messages by cell phone that he wanted me back. I was so important to him, he wanted to start a new life together blah, blah, blah. I turned him down as I felt uncertain about his sincerity. A few days later, I sent him an email and listed out all I want and conditions. If he wants me back, he should know what to do, prove his words and make me believe. It's a test of his honesty. He replied me that he remorsed what he did to me but he needed time to think. I haven't heard him for two weeks. What does this mean? He's still in heavy fog. Therefore fromAbove, don't trust your wife so soon and be patient. You are doing right.

The hardest part for me is the deep depression / suicide threats. If she is serious then I do want to be there for her, plan B or no plan B. But if it is a tactic, then our M is over and I will get a D immediatally as that is not something to joke about.

Tonight she had some plans w/ friends which is good cause she will have some people to hang out w/. I am hoping the weekend will be that way as well and that will help level her out a bit.

Im sticking to my guns though, I want results.

Ack, this is hard. W called again, saying she is feeling no hope, no life, no emotion. She just wants to end it. Says she wansts to comit suicide and can't stay in the apartment another day and doesn't know how long she can last.

My response was to try and be understanding & reasonable but still hold true to plan B.

I told her if she was serious I would call 911 or her best friends and have them rush down there immediatley. She did not like that idea.

I told her that if I were the one to come down or if she were to come to me, that would ruin what is left of our marriage. We cannot build a marriage on lonliness, depress etc. If she is truly suicidal, she needs more help then I can offer and we need to see a professional. But moving back i w/ me is not a way to fix this, just postpone it. She said she would not see a doctor, counselor or a therapist.

This is hard, I am trying to walk a thin line of keeping our marriage afloat and help a friend in deep depression. I do love her, but this is sucking my love bank so fast.

Anyone have some advise?

If she is truly depressed and feeling suicidal yet doesn't want to seek help, then there is absolutely nothing you can do for her.

It sounds more like a manipulative tactic on her part for you to give her attention (a top female EN) without her committing to anything. Your best bet is to stay resolute about no contact with her unless she is willing to end all contact with OM and willingly agree to a marital recovery plan with a marriage oriented professional like Steve Harley or Penny Tupy. If you don't enforce your personal boundaries, she is going to continue trying to convince you to accept the unacceptable.

If your wife is clinically depressed she needs to be seen by a professional whether she agrees to it or not. As her husband you can have her committed for observation so that she gets the treatment she needs.

When she calls give her a phone number of IC and insisted NC. You are still fillin her emotional need, she know what to do to come back.
-rh-

Well, life is funny isn't it.

Hadn't talked to W since last post on here, her threats subsided and she got better. She called me this morning and said she has emailed the OM and ended it. She has the email for me as proof that she sent it to him.

I am happy about this, I really am. A huge weight has been lifted, but there is so much work to do. I spoke to her on the phone and the things she said were almost unbelievable to me because they did actually sound genuine and sincere. I am still cautious though, I have been hurt too many times.

She is still living in an apartment and I really dont think I am ready for her to move back in. I am trying to sort out my emotions, feelings, and frustrations right now as I am pretty confused. My LB has been drained so low it hurts, I am amazed I made it this far and I honestly dont know if she can refill it. I have been thinking about a D for the past month, seriously considering it because I dont know how I feel for her. In my mind, Plan B was for me more then it was for her. I don't know what way I will go, but I am going to try and see what happens here. We both need to work though a ton and have a lot to talk about. I guess I'll just see if the Love returns or not.

fromAbove,

Take the steps on how A should ends. Let her know that you need to protect your feeling and she should help you with that by accounts her time, where about and money. I agree with you on not letting her back home, let her earned it. I would get on conseling right away !.

About in-love ... follow 4 gifts of love aka 4 rules of recovey ... the feeling would return and better. Yes, nobody say the road to recovery is easy.

-rh-

rh, thanks for the words. We had a good talk last night and she is showing her sincerity through actions and not just words. Plus the amout of fog talk is so low that it almost seems impossible.

I am being cautiously optomistic and working slowly on the way to recovery. Looks like we may be entering a new phase here and Plan B did the job. Guess we'll have to see where this one goes!

Thought this would be a great post for you to read from Mortaman from the General Postings forum. It applies to your situation!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> dont know about everyone else, but I KNOW what you are talking about. I also have been talking to Steve over all of this, and what you posted rings true to his advice.

Plan B is meant to be no, or minimal contact (kids, finances, etc). But, as I posted on a nother thread (I think it was NowWhat), there is a point, a transition period, where the WS does come looking for an "olive branch." So, unlike some who say stay completely in the dark until the NC letter is sent, I found in my case, with Steve's advice backing me, that it was good to show my wife that I meant what I said in the letter

Up to the point where she came by and wanted to talk reconciliation, I had gone dark. Minimal contact And that contact was VERY structured. But when she showed up at my door in January (a full six weeks after going dark), we had a 4 hour conversation. No how is that no contact? How is that minimal contact? She hadnt sent the NC letter to the OM. So why was I even talking to her?

Well, I wasnt really. I didnt initiate this. I didnt drive the conversation. I didnt even offer up anything in the conversation that wasnt asked for by my wife. I let her talk. I let her ask questions. You see, I learned that while we here at MB understand the dynamics and all, our WSs might want to come back...but are very afraid of what will happen. Did we mean what we said in the letter? Is there a chance to work on this?

For everyone here...there is a point (FWSs please let me know if I'm off base) where the WS got to that got them into the affair. Once in it, the OP and the BS was meeting their needs. they stayed in the fog and fence sat because they were too scared to let one go. After loneliness, whatever, that led to the affair, now they were having all their needs met. To let one or the other go would be VERY painful...and no guarantee that the person they chose to keep would meet the needs that the other was meeting. Very scary for someone in an addiction!

So, Plan B forces them to live that painful life for awhile. It wakes them up to what is inevitably going to happen, one way or another. Once they understand this, in most cases, it means the end of the relationship with the OP. The WS now knows that they dont want to live without their spouse. Because of a good Plan A, they also have some idea that their spouse might just meet their needs like they have always wanted. And because of Plan A and Plan B, the OP has now shown their true colors...and the WS KNOWs that the OP aint "all that!"

But, now they are stuck with an OP that they know isnt what they want, and is increasingly LBing them. They have no contact with their spouse because they are in Plan B. The WS is in pain, and it is getting worse, both from the withdrawal from their spouse AND from the increasing discontent with their OP. They begin to panic. they try crazy things to get us to engage them. But the BS, if aware of this, will KNOW if the WS wanting to engage them is just panic, or finally a break through.

While it is still panic, while the WS still wants to fence sit, the BS just refers the WS back to the PBL and goes dark again. This is where Now What is. What this does is to push the WS back into their pain, with no needs still met by the BS the pain continues and increases.

Finally, if this process is stuck to, the WS has a breakthrough. They know they want to come back. They want to get rid of the OP. But they dont know how. Sure, they can read our PBL. But that isnt very descriptive. "What should the letter say? I care for the OP...how do I do this without hurting them (which they will finally realize that they cant...that pain is all a part of this process)? What if I get rid of OP and BS doesnt take me back? I mean, I havent had much interaction with BS. Maybe they have moved on. How do I know that what they showed me in Plan A is true, the changes? What if I go back and everything is the same as before, OR WORSE?" A thousand questions...and no answers for them.

I likened this on another post to an army surrendering to another army. They sit across a field, one army defeated but still hasnt given up. They want to. But can they trust the winners to treat them well. the winners sent over fliers telling them how they should surrender, and that they would be treated well. But can they believe them?

At some point, they will raise the white flag. Now...who's responsibility is it to make the surrender go smoothly? Who's responsibility is it to guide the loser through the process...to make them feel comfortable enough to lay down their arms and give up? of course...the winners are responsible.

So, in this case, it is the BS's responsibility to guide the WS through the process…to put out that olive branch…to help them through the process. THAT DOES NOT MEAN MEETING THE WS'S NEEDS! It means being there to instruct them on how things should go. It is allowing the WS to question you, to see if you really mean what you have said. It is staying on message, not deviating into meeting any of their WS's needs…thus allowing them to stay on the fence.

I believe Plan B is part of the "war." But at some point, Plan B has to start going into what I call the transition period. The surrender period. This period is very dangerous just like in war, the "enemy" could decide to not surrender, and fire back…wounding you. In this case, it might be a false reconciliation, and they are trying to pull you back onto the fence. But, if you want the"war" to end, there are chances that have to be taken,

When an enemy surrenders, the winner does not just lay down their arms and run across the field to give a big hug to their vanquished foe. No. The winner stands on guard. The winner tries to make the loser comfortable and understand that all will be well if they follow instructions. BUT THEY ALSO LET THE LOSER KNOW THAT THEY MUST FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS!

The WS has no right to negotiate. They have no right to set the terms of surrender. All they can do is refer to the terms of surrender that the BS wrote up (PBL) and follow them. They will try to negotiate. And the BS refers them to the PBL. They will try everything in the book. Again, refer to the PBL.

But eventually, the "enemy" gives up. Now starts the transition period. Neither side trusts the other, especially if there have been "false surrenders" before. But it is up to the BS to guide them through it.

Now, if we are in Plan B and "dark," how are we able to guide them through it? Well, we must go what I call "semi-dark." We stick to Plan B first of all. NO ENs being met (that includes SF, Mimi!…sorry, I was the same way with my wife…even had SF one time during the transition period (in late January)…and it only pushed things off further because I could see my wife wanting to go back on the fence right after that). So, we stick to the heart of Plan B. But like the "minimal contact" that parents have to have during Plan B for the sake of the kids, there should be minimal contact during the surrender period.

Once I was in the surrender or transition period, and right after I screwed up with the SF, I truly went to semi-dark. I would allow her to call and talk to me about her questions. I went with her for a few times to her counseling sessions that I had mandated in my PBL that she start again. At these sessions, I was able to help the counselor get started with her therapy. I would allow her to express her fears, and pain. But I never comforted her in a way to meet her needs. I just pointed her back to the PBL. I pointed her to SAA, and MB. I pointed her to what she saw in my Plan A. And I told her that it was al true, but she was going to have to make it happen.

At first, as she started to make the baby steps, she would call a lot. It is like a baby looking back to see if Dad is there to catch them as they first learn to walk. But as she felt more comfortable, she decided to tell the OM of NC forever…that she was ending it. Once that happened, she turned to me tearfully and very scared…expecting her life to blow up. She had just laid down her arms. And what she got was not what she expected. Basically, she got a hug.

So Mimi, I agree with you. You are now doing well with Steve's advice and I feel you have a good grasp on what he thinks you should do. The house situation is okay. That isnt the problem. Of course, I believe that your husband is in this transition or surrender period. And of course, you don't want to make life altering changes that will affect him right now, and them have him home two weeks from now. So, I believe that you have done the right thing with the house.

But Mimi, be careful. You have had false reconciliations before. While he may WANT to do this, his fear may drive him away again. That is why you must stay tough. Tough love as Dobson puts it. Guide him through this...but don't get close. Don't meet any of his needs. But do let him express himself, let him ask questions Answer him so he can trust you, trust that where he is headed is in fact reality. Remember, he ran to the OW and "thought" that was reality. Now he knows it isnt. But, how can he trust himself enough to know if YOU are fantasy, or reality?

So, minimal contact Semi-dark. Stay tough with him. The house, and your physical attraction for each other, are two biggies that are helping him to move your way. You don't need to help that along by giving in to him.

Keep on with this. Be wary. Be careful. I think we are talking two weeks MAX if you can stick to this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">