i do believe my w is withdrawn, so what suggestions do any of you Plan Bers have.
I have noticed the other day while on the phone, i was short, and quick with her. Told her i had to hang up, but we ended up small talking,,,so it leaves me withy the inpression that there is still a *tiny* chance, or maybe its wishful thinking on my behalf.
Ok B vets, please, give me your idears,,

2x4 ... What the heck are you doing talking to WW ?. She has R.O. on you ... she could put you in jail even contact was initiated by her. You are breaking a law.

Are you in plan B ? I probably missed your post.

-rh-

If Redhats right about the RO your WW has on you then you better watch yourself big time.

In fact I would notify the police station (make note of time and who you talked to) that your WW has a RO against you and that she contacted you.

In the future if your WW calls you tell her you would love to talk but until she lifts the RO you can't. Then again notify the police.

Your playing with fire.

If she calls with RO in effect, DO NOT take the call. She knows that if she wants to talk to you she has to lift RO.

yes maybe i need the 2x4, a few times!!!
yes there is a RO, this has been broken several times! By herself as well. I have documented all the times. We can only communicate where the children are concerned. Directly related to the children. With this RO, i think she's just as liable to be jailed as I'am??? It applies to her as well,,she calls here, if i'm not home she leaves a message to call her.
Yes, our conversation most always turns to other topics. Most times she doen't even ask to talk to the children.
She wants me to agree to the joint custody still, and she says she will then have her lawyer fill out papers, and drop the RO.

No. I'm not in plan B. I truly do try to respect this RO, so its difficult, and confusing, to actually do much of anything With RO.
I know when we do talk, i want to start showing that her emotional needs are still important to me, so i want to ask the right type of questions. Also regarding to plan B, this Sat when she's here to pick up the children, i was going to give her the Plan B letter, but concerned again with RO. I also thought about having my 14 D bring the two children out to my W, but i'm concerned if this is putting my 14 D in a position, that i shouldn't be.

I always have the camcorder in hand when she arrives, therefore i have things documented.
I filed to have this RO terminated, i have to have her served yet. The only thing is i don't want to aggravate things, (mainly her) also i'm not sure if i can get this in front of the Judge, cuz the RO was served in March. I was also hoping to get in front of the judge, so i could file a motion to have our children not be exposed to her and her new b/f's display of affection.(when i shared with W what children say, she said her and this guy are not dating, ok, then why all the time together, trips to his house, he's always to her house) Each time the children come home, they tell me all about it, and they start crying,,,,, they're not ready to see their mommy do this stuff. The emotional impact this has on them. And their mommy can only think of herself!? Besides, it would seem like after going two weeks, she would want to spemd more quality time with children, but, i suppose my way of thinking is warpped anymore.
So, go ahead, right between my eyes, give me the 2x4, HARD!!! lol

Thanks,, Steven

With the PPO, every time my W is here, she always comes in,,, and as it turns out, the last thing i think about is the RO!?

With plan B, i was also concerned cuz she at times acts withdrawn, other times she will say things like she misses this and that. So, i will act on thise almost always. Three times last week we discussed about getting back together. Some times i wonder if she's playing me, and setting meup with this RO? Other times i wonder if she too is confused? Maybe wanting to keep me like on the *shelf* just in case. The end results last week was she just started a new job, so she said she wants to continue learning the new job. Our discussion was in some depth regards to staying, and fixing our marriage. Yes, i really wonder if i'm just being mislead!?
again, thank you.

<small>[ August 21, 2003, 05:22 AM: Message edited by: Stephan ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stephan:
<strong>She wants me to agree to the joint custody still, and she says she will then have her lawyer fill out papers, and drop the RO. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">.
I would call her from your lawyer office and put her on the speaker phone and let her reiterate her words ... than tell her that you are going to discuss it w/ your laywer and think it over. Then you turn around let your lawyer file a motion to dismiss the R.O. !. It is a privolus R.O. Depend on which states you live in you could file also R.O for OM to stay away from your kids. Get also a hearing on Child Custody !, how old are you 2 other kids ?, the 14 D old enough to say she want to stay with you. The other two the judge might give it to you as well. I would also put a hidden camere to tape our two other kids crying after they come back from her ! ... BE SMART YOU ARE DEALING WITH VENUSIAN.

Listen when comes down to legal matter there is no plan A ... !. Plan A is not about being nice and treat her like a spoiled girl. 2x4 !. You need to protect yourself legally & your kids !!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> .

Does A out of the open already ?. I won't give her plan B ... Finish up the legal matter first, I don't think you are ripe for plan B. I might be wrong. You should call Harley to get conseling & get coaching to walk into plan B.

Hang in there ... The justice system is not blind, I got 50-50 with my 2 D & they stay in the school district at my area (my ExW lived 20 mi. away), the court awarded my home as their primary residence for legal matter <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . You have to walk & utilize all your resources to support your position. Get you lawyer involve right away.

-rh-

I agree redhat, excellent advice!!

What is a Venusian <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Sorry, i have no lawyer. With the PPO, Legal Aide refuse to help me, adding that i'm now considered a criminal in the justice system. I do not have the funds, nor the family to borrow from, to hire an attorney. So far, we have not been in court. Only the Friend of the courts office. That was June 2nd, which was when i was awarded custody.
My oldest two children are ages 12, and 14. They are not with/from my W. The two children with/from my wife are ages 5&3. My W has two previous children as well. I'm her second husband. But third father.

I have been recording a lot of our conversations with my camcorder. I'll act as though i'm recording the children, and we'll continue to talk. While on the phone i'll also record conversations. For the most part i have difficulty rememebring and thinking that my W, is, or was capable to have me placed in jail, over this BOGUS PPO!!! Even today while she was here, i still allowed myself to open up, and listen and to trust her. I truly tried to avoid, but i eventually failed. I told her today i no longer wanted to see her,,, first i was asked *now what did i do wrong?* I stated nothing, its just that i now ilove you, and its best that i don't see you. With all due respect to her, and her decision. The conversation then went to me hearing her say, she told the OP to stay away.

Yes, i have already recorded the kids crying,, i was nervous about this, wondering if i'd be accused of coercing(sp) (setting them up to do this)

I'm not sure what a VENUSIAN (lol) is, but i'am well aware of what an upset vixen wife is!!! Yes, for awhile i was actually scared of my W, the lady i choose, and asked to marry me. The same lady who is the mother to my children. I still am to an extent, just not as much. Maybe she's waiting for me to relax, while she coils up and hisses!! Is a Venusian a form of a snake? J/K LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Yes, her affair is out in the open. I do have to say one thing about this, i do not know for a fact if there is, or was an affair. ALl i had to go with was what the children were saying, and from my W talking about going to his house. No, i didn't just jump off the *tater* truck this mornin'

Anyhow, yes i want to save my marriage, yes today i informed her it is worth saving, reminding her that it is our marriage, and i do love her.

Have to go,, children are in the van, waiting for me, so we can get to the lake!!!

Hi Steven, it's me again!!!

Did you ever try to get a public defender for your PPO?? Or do you think it has been broken
so many times any way, what's the use???

Do you have to go to court about that at all??

Sent with Love, Ladysheep

Hi Ladysheep,,
yeppers i tried getting a public defender. I called the circuit court, they said they knew nothing about this, and added that they doupted that they would even have one for a divorce anyway.
I also called SEVERAL lawyers, asking for pro bono. The ones who were willing, had already, basically done the amount they were going to for the year.s did not offer, some didn't even know what it meant.
As for going to court. Three days ago, I went to the court, once again filled out the papers to file a motion to have this PPO terminateed. I have a court date, all i have to do is get my W served. I wonder though if i should follow thru, its some thing that will probably upset her, and i really don't feel as if its necassary, again,,, I JUST DON"T KNOW!!! :-)

Yes the PPo has been broken so many times. By myself, my W included. The only thing is, she has it served against me, i will always be the one who would go to jail. Yes, if that was to ever happen, i'm sure i would be ASKING the judge, if the court could hold her accountable, as well. I have read where *dads* have gone to jail for reaching down petting the family dog, upon either returning, or picking children up. One went to jail for helpoing carry either presents, or bags to the door. One was arrested, just for having one foot on the property. These PPO's, and or RO's, are so over abused. Yes, i'am an example of this stat! Yes, some are extremely necassary, but of the % that are bogus,,,
oh well, i suppose one has to do what one *feels* is necassary,,,

Steven

Hi Steven,

No I don't think you can get a public defender for divorce, but for the PPO it may be possible,
only if she has charges against you. If she just has the PPO, and no charges pressed against you then probably not.

Well, just becareful o.k.

Ladysheep

Ladysheep..
Nope, she has no charges against me. I have never gave a reason for any charges, zero. I'm sure i was guilty, in the first degree, with harrassing. But anybody can be considered an harrasser. Even with one phone call, after the phone curfew.
For the most part, i would return her phone calls. And yeppers, there were times i'd call her own my own.

*Be careful,* i really try to be, but,,

Take care
Steven

Ladysheep..
Sorry. i probab;y should have known better. Maybe i should call the courts again tomorrow.
Nope, she has no charges against me. I have never gave a reason for any charges, zero. I'm sure i was guilty, in the first degree, with harrassing. But anybody can be considered an harrasser. Even with one phone call, after the phone curfew.
For the most part, i would return her phone calls. And yeppers, there were times i'd call her own my own. Times i brought our children there to see her.

*Be careful,* i really try to be, but,,

Take care
Steven

Stephan, you are in the right track, hang in there.

ladysheep, Venusian is a lady that know how to manipulate/identify male's weaknesses toward her advantage. Just click on link under my signature for a link on Venusian Lady's post CarolKH ... you don't want this kind of lady to be a WW or an OW !.

-rh-

Hmmmmmmm redhat, I see what you mean about Venusian now. I don't like Venusian either!!
So would you say the 180 is good or not good?

Redhat, what exactly do you mean, I'm on the right track? The right track regardding saving my marriage,, or right track by acting as though I too want out? Or the right track referring to recording her, and protecting against?

Yesterday while on the phone, i informed her i wouldn't be here when she was here to pick up our children,, moments later i was asked iof i would be there, so she could get my help talking with our three year old. Which i agreed.

Today i sent email, again asking what she thought,,, about me enrolling children in Head Start.
I also added in there i wouldn't be home on Sunday when she returned the children. She responded back with nothing about the Head Start. I asked her several questions. Not one answer, (Head Start Q's)

Her email reply was this,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why don't you let me know what's going on for sure on Sunday. I feel that when I return (name) and (name). I should be returning them to an adult.
Maybe we can figure out our schedules and work something out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm going to wait til tomorrow to respond,(if i dorespond) i want to email her, ask if maybe i can pick up our children for a few hours,, (family reunion)

I have been thinking about giving her the Plan B letter on Sunday.

Redhat, if i can ask you this? Is it required to avoid any and or all possibilities of upsetting W? I know its a fact that people will become upset,,, i'm more concerned about doing it intentionaly?? One reason i ask, is because i have some court papers, (filed to terminate the PPO. The only way i can get them to her(legally) one way is to have this sent as registered mail.

Thank you
Steven

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ladysheep:
<strong>Hmmmmmmm redhat, I see what you mean about Venusian now. I don't like Venusian either!!
So would you say the 180 is good or not good?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually 180 degrees is doing exactly the opposite what you have been doing to get WS's attention. What CarolKH was doing is really Venusian and IMVHO it is not exactly 180. I am not a purist and when in doubt ... get conseling directly w/ Michelle W. 180 is a narrow version of plan A, might not work in all cases. It works well when there are a lot kodak moments in M prior to D-day & more effective when dealing w/ WH than WW.

-rh-

Stephan,
You were in the right track trying to save your M and your sanity .... I hope you could safe both but at least you will safe your sanity and become a better mate/person. I said were since you contact your W again today.

This is my 2¢. Do you think you could "enforced" NC on you?. Even a legal issue could not stop you ... I really don't think you should go to plan B. You are not ready yet, logistically and legally for plan B, not yet. Giving her plan B letter is futile right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Redhat, if i can ask you this? Is it required to avoid any and or all possibilities of upsetting W? I know its a fact that people will become upset,,, i'm more concerned about doing it intentionaly?? One reason i ask, is because i have some court papers, (filed to terminate the PPO. The only way i can get them to her(legally) one way is to have this sent as registered mail.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Served her by a server not you or send it registered, legally, you are not even suppose to talk to her let alone hand the paper to her.

Now about "being nice" ... 1. PLAN A IS NOT ABOUT BEING NICE !. It is about "negotiating" to end A. Plan A is directly adressing the issues that she has on M that you are responsible for. Q:what's that about unfinish bathroom ? ...
2. You have to weight the pros&cons of your actions and definitly avoid LB'ng. Yes, you will make W furious but legally you need to protect yourself & your kids's emotions. You have no choice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . When asked why ... you have to repeat to her that you need to protect yourself legally and stop it there, no angry outburst & no disrepectfull judgement. It is about you and when she pressing you just use the magic answer ... "what would you do if I did this (R.O) to you ?".
3. This is why you need a lawyer ... all those words in the motion to dismisse are presented by the bad guy, your lawyer and not you. You could hide behind your lawyer ... "I don't know, I gave my lawyer the info. and I have no control over what the lawyer is doing with it" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> - fogesse talk.

The short answer is BS should try to avoid to make WS furious but it is not always possible. BS has to learn which one is really -LB$ and which one is really enabling A. The risk of enabling A is outweigh the -LB$. Exposing A for instance ... it is very upsetting for WS but BS has to do it if WS refuses to stop A after d-day. How could you say I beleive in M but I help you to protect this A ?.

No disrepect but I picture your W as a spoiled brat that daddy never spanked. You were doormat to her before d-day ... and she losts even more respect for you on your plan A. Todate she has receive no percausion/reality from her A. Everyone is treating her A like an elephant in the room <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . I hope I am wrong here, please correct me.

-rh-

Redhat,, I contacted my W, court papers state i have to give W first choice regards to daycare/babysitter. Meaning she has the right to refuse my choice/decision, and it also allows her to make any arrangements for herself to *have* children, opposed to them being anywhere alse.
I really had no choice but to contact her. I HAVE to have something lined up fpr inthe future, so I can get a job. Also, court states communication can be between us, in only direct contact regarding our children. Visitation,appointments,,,

Enforce no contact on me, yes i realize i do struggle with that. And ues, i could enforce it. I realized awhile ago, whenever i would enforce NC on me, within a few days i would hear from my W. Then after that, i was always so quick to respond.

I know i can't hand the papers to her, the court said i could have it sent to her as registered mail. So thats how i plan on doing it. I have been reluctant, due to the fact i do not want to stir something up, thats unnecassary. At the same time, i feel as though trying to get this PPO terminated, is necassary. Although i'm really not sure why, cuz it has been broken, by both time after time. Yes, it MOSTLY affects me though.
I would like to turn this D around, so i figured if i started acting like i wanted the divorce, persuing this PPO, maybe was my first step. ??
In hopes,,,??? Do you know what i mean?

Every time we have discussed her A, she has always denied. I shared my thoughts, and feelings, regards to this. Gave her the info i had. Her only response was that she only watched his dog, so he and daughter could go away for week-end. That she didn't know he was a wacko and a drunk. She stated the last time we discussed this, the first thing she said was something about either *what did you want me to do, kick his a$$?* either that, or she said she wanted to, not sure anymore which way. She then said something about never going to the door,(i had no clue what this was about) She ended with dsaying again he was a wacko, and that she almost had a PPO served against him as well.

Now, when i find out my W is spending a lot of time with her first sons dad, so i talk about it, ask questions. Now i'm informed she told him to stay away. If this is true, i do not have a clue. I suppose time will tell.

My philosphy has been, i ask a question, or express what i know. Rather the person accepts the truth or not, is their perogative. At least they actually know where i'm at, with it. Maybe thats an error on my behalf, but it causes less conflict. I express and share what i know, and how it has made me feel. (My latest example, i shared with W what i heard, and or knew regards to first sons dad, days later i'm informed she tells him to stay away. Ok, maybe she told him stay away, maybe she told him to stay away for awhile,,,

I suppose i do need a lawyer, this to is why i have thought about attempting once again having PPO terminated. I know i have not made a good lawyer within myself. I have been to so man y sites, educating myself with the legal stuff pertaining to divorce/custody. Trying to JAM things in, that lawyers have spent how ever many years learning. ALso trying to find info about saving my marriage,,, and trying to maintain my household responsibilities, you know, the cleaning, cooking, bils, groceries, baths, etc. etc..

I have a tendancy to agree, *spoiled.* Its as if there are no consquences ever toward her way. I used to say often, W, its like you create an iissue, make more out of it, than you can't handle the consquences,,, yes, she is pretty danged spoiled, and i as well allowed. Why? because i eventually started avoiding conflicts!!!

Pros/cons, yes the marriage is worth saving. Unfortunately, its a one way street. There has been MORE good, than the *bad,* All W was focusing on, was the *bad.* She even made things that we DID enjoy together, made them into the *Bad.*

With Plan A, i have read and read, read other posts, i guess my shallow brain still does not get it.
So therefore i'll ask this, am i, or was i, suppose to inform her exactly how i thought, and or felt regards to things that i did not like? If this is the case, is this not going backwards, i thought we were suppose to move forward? And yes, i was under the impression that i was also suppose to not only expose the A, but also show her that i can be the H she wants and or needs. That i want to be as well. Some what of an doormat, yet some what not??

Yes, i agree, with being treated like an elephant.
I know she had painted a pretty ugly picture about me, as if to justify her actions. Well so be it, i'am her husband. DOes not mean i like and or accept it, but,,, and i ahve expressed and or shared my opinions/thoughts with everything. Yes, trying to avoid upsetting her, at times i even kept things to myself, to avoid. The day i found out my W thought i was an abuser, i accepted this, cuz it came from my W, does this make sense? Not saying i agreed, or disagreed.
My W even tryed convincing me that i wanted to do things (leave her no money, or vehicle) to force her to stay home, while i was at work. So, i pointed out the facts, reminding her of ALL ther times, and or places she has gone,(now considered i'm arguing) So, i accepted her feelings, then asked questions,shared my thoughts as well. Adding that was the furthest from the truth.
Yes i wished i could afford some time with Dr. Harley,,, but the reality of things, its just not possible. In fact, its virtualy impossible.
In case you can't tell, yes i'm a wordy person,,, so sorry.

I think i'm going to go back to the Plan A boards, and attempt to get a better understanding,,, each time i think i have it figured out, only to realize i'm still off.

Is it any wonder why my marriage fell apart, no, i'm not very intelligent, my reading level is only 8th grade. With this stuff, i think i drop down a few grades,,,

Thanks Redhat!!

I just reread your post,, actually i think i just figured it out,, addressing issues i'm responsible for.
So, does this mean i allow hers to remain out of the picture? I know i can only change myself. I thought i too was suppose to be heard, and understood.
Now i think i get a better idea as to why she thinks i don't listen,,
(i did graduate high school) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Please have patience with me,,