</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now the real issue. I don't care if a person has 1 posting or 1 million of them. Every opinion is valuable to someone somewhere. There isn't a queen pubba of the boards and because you spend all day and night reading and posting that don't mean squat in the scheme of things. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mano, I asked baby if she was sure that pep was merely replying harshly out of meaness. I used the number of posts to demonstrate a possible greater experience with the TOW board...not greater intelligence or right to post or anything else. I asked her to examine both sides of the issue. Post number has zero do do with real wisdom or grace. I do value baby's opinion and I'm sorry if I didn't express that as well.

double post sorry

<small>[ September 21, 2003, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pep, i posted my (lack of) experience with a NC letter to simply state my experience - which is none. I know that my MM's Ws reasons for needing this have nothing or little to do with the Harley theory on NC letters. So, i stated it for relative reasons.

My curiosity of your principles on NC letters here have nothing to do with my own situation. Im quite fine with the way things worked out. The fact that you view the A as wrong is fine by me, i never said it was right. However, it did happen. And now, the results are what they are. And i think its in everyones best interests to move on from that the best they can - so far ive respected MMs decision on NC, and come to peace with my part in everything which i think is all that is needed. It may not be what is needed for you, but i am really quite alright with the situation. I was involved with an MM, who i cared about a lot, and i cant go back and change that. All i can do is ensure that from this point out i live my life in a way that i can be happy with. And i think that applies to everyone since everyone surely has made mistakes in their lives.

I guess my point is, you can point out all day long how wrong i was and all of my misteps (ive never pointed out his Ws missteps here), but it really doesnt solve anything. At least it certainly doesnt erase whats already happened. We have all done things that others might not have chosen in the same situation, but its pretty irrelevant, as you stated. So... i dont see where it works into my question about a NC letter. Ive grown tremendously as a person, pre EMR, during the EMR, and especially post EMR. And I think I asked a valid question worth discussion regardless of my status, my healing path, my internal battles, or whatever.

If you would really rather see me post about the ways ive grown and am continuing to grow since the EMR, i could oblige, but i dont personally think this is a place for me to do that. I do however, think its an appropriate place to ask questions about the principles employed and promoted here.

Im curious, and do have a desire to know the hows and whys. Not because of my experience even anymore (although im sure that without my experiences i wouldnt have the same desire to know), but just the same way as i learn about other religions, other countries, etc... even though i may have no intentions of converting to that religion or moving to that country, everything can be turned into a learning experience.

So... take from that what you may... i really am not here to flame, but rather simply ask a question.

Oh and one more thing - i do want to clarify, im a firm believer in the need for NC in order to rebuild a M. I just wanted to make that clear because im not sure that everyone is recognizing that.

Rain...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sandi520:
<strong>[QUOTE]Originally posted by star*fish:
[qb]sandi,

I know all about the pain inflicted on all sides of this triangle having lived it first hand, and believe it or not, no one side has the market.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Rain .... Sandi wants to validate your pain. OK. But I prefer to think you have the ability to go deeper than your own pain .... go into your

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know Pepper, presuming that you know another's motives is preposterous. You know nothing about me except for a few words at the end of my signature line. I wasn't validating Rain's pain at all, not that I believe for a second that her pain is less valid than mine or any other woman who has been hurt by a man, I was validating that she had every right to ask the questions that she asked.
You are so hung up on the fact that she was once a OW that that automatically makes her question invalid in your eyes, makes her motive for knowledge less than pure.. Who are you to make that judgement?
I and several others saw the questions for what they were, questions that sought answers.
I somehow think that Rain is no different than you or I, someone who loved someone who said they loved them as well.
Stop blaming the OW for not taking the high ground in the land of morality and face the fact that all of the people in this triangle have played a part in this.
One day, when you have healed from this, your thought processes will be much different, and accept that all of us human beings make mistakes in our lives and we all have to live with them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Baby Blue:
Pepper..

I think your response was harsh. Rain came here asking a legitimate question. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you for your opinion of my response. I agree. I do sound harsh.

Your other remark ... (asking a legitimate question) I do not agree with. I do not believe Rain's question is legitimate. Because, the wife's actions and motivations are none of Rain's business.

A legitimate concern of Rain's might be her own path to recovery and her rediscovery of her own moral compass.

Rain cannot recover until she lets go of their marriage and it's problems.

Rain's concern about an NC letter that was not written .... does not help Rain.

Thanks for drawing attention to my tone, I appreciate it.

Pep
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pep... once again... i know my MMs W motives.. ive heard them directly from her. Im not here to find out her motives. Im not here with questions about their marraige. I dont need to know about their M. I know that now they are working on their M and it is going well and im happy for them and can move on knowing that. Thats really all that matters.

Im not sure where you concluded that any of this had anything to do with my MM or his W or his NC letter or even their M. It really doesnt. Im interested in the concepts and principles that are encouraged here the same way that i am interested in how abuse victims get past their hurt and pain, the same way i am interested in learning about other religions, etc. different people need different things to heal. I cant speak for you, only for myself. And i think anything that can be learned is valuable no matter what side of the fence youre on or wether or not the particular situation has touched your life.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks for your concern pep... i would much rather have you concerned with my recovery than pointing out things im already aware of, like the fact that i engaged in an EMR and all the repercussions as a result. If it makes it any better, i will say that i never intend to get myself in that kind of situation again... and not becuase of the fall out and its impact on me and my feelings - but because of other issues of my own and also becuase i could not bare to watch someone i care so much about go through what he went through when it was all said and done - and part of that includes the pain he felt while watching his w that he cared about in pain, if he cares for her, and chooses his M and her, i have enough respect for him to know that it must be worth it. I have no doubts about that. And i woudl never want to bring that kind of pain into something he treasures so much again. I dont know if thats what youre looking for, but that is my POV.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
(sorry for rambling!)

Rain...

Originally posted by sandi520:
You know Pepper, presuming that you know another's motives is preposterous. You know nothing about me except for a few words at the end of my signature line.

I only responded to my understanding of what you wrote. I did not read your sig line.

I wasn't validating Rain's pain at all, not that I believe for a second that her pain is less valid than mine or any other woman who has been hurt by a man, I was validating that she had every right to ask the questions that she asked.

Yes, she has the right to ask anything she wants. And, I have the right to express an opinion ... or is this not so? My opinion is, Rain is wasting her life as an OW. She is worth much more than that. Rain is avoiding her personal recovery ... questioning a married woman's struggles with NC .... Rain has other things that should be more important to Rain .... like her own wanderings into married peoples' private lives. Like building her own character and shoring up against her own weaknesses.


You are so hung up on the fact that she was once a OW that that automatically makes her question invalid in your eyes, makes her motive for knowledge less than pure..

Many women who were formally OW are very dear friends of mine. I trust some of these FOW on MB with my personal information .... home phone etc. You are just flat out wrong here. I am not hung up that Rain was a OW .... I wonder if she's finished being an OW .... after all .... she's still involved in their personal business

Who are you to make that judgement?

I think destroying marriages and families is morally wrong. Is that not a fair judgement?

I and several others saw the questions for what they were, questions that sought answers.
I somehow think that Rain is no different than you or I, someone who loved someone who said they loved them as well.

I believe all women (and men) have the moral obligation to protect families .... this comes before our personal pleasure. I am not so sure Rain agrees with my belief. So far, her actions have spoken otherwise, but she can grow and change from her experiences. Being in love with a married man .... does not give license for immoral and cruel behaviors. Do you disagree?

Stop blaming the OW for not taking the high ground in the land of morality and face the fact that all of the people in this triangle have played a part in this.

And what part did the child of the marriage play? It's far wider than a triangle. This cruel and irresponsible behavior affects the entire extended family. And, society as a whole.

I might respect Rain's ability to take the moral high ground more than you do ! LOL!

I hope and pray that (eventually) Rain not only sees her choice to have an affair as a hurtful experience for herself, but also as a morally wrong choice. So far, she hasn't given that up.

Can you tell me what the moral mis-step of the wife was?

One day, when you have healed from this, your thought processes will be much different, and accept that all of us human beings make mistakes in our lives and we all have to live with them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Well thank you for your good wishes
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I have pretty much healed ..... for my recovery is 7 years in length. Recovery is difficult but rewarding, doncha think?

As for my thought processes .... time will tell. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I have as much to learn as anyone. I openly welcome your critique and disagreements. I really do.

Making mistakes and learning from them .... is part and partial to mature thought processes .... doncha think?

Making mistakes and having others have to live with those mistakes .... now there's an interesting rub to all of this. One has to actually care that families are being hurt.

Thanks for your thoughts Sandi

Pep

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ September 21, 2003, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pep... i do hope you understand that i am NOT an OW anymore... i ended the A of my own free will long before DDay and long before NC was put in place.

It was a long hard struggle to end the A. The reasons that made it hard for me to walk away were the same reasons that make it hard for anyone to walk away from someone they care about. However, the EMR didnt suit me, nor did the things that came with it.

I had an array of reasons why i was unhappy with the EMR and it was very complicated, especially since i was happy with him. Those dynamics are hard to explain. I loved him but i hated our situation... i hated the person it made me also. And not just becuase so many view it as immoral, for many other reasons, much more complicated than that. It was not an easy thing to do , and as i said, it was a very long process.

My healing and recovery began long ago. And ive done a great deal of work on it. I dont think any of us are ever really "done" healing and recovering... even those of us who dont have these battles have other battles. Theres room for everyone to grow and learn.

That said... im not in their business and have no concern what goes on in their M and why... i do have a general curiosity and concern for people in general, and how they cope, and what drives people - in areas including, but not limited to, As... and my own experience is not the only driving force behind it.

The only concern of mine, seriously, is that xMM and his W do find what theyre looking for - a stronger solid marraige. You may not believe me when i say it, but i only want the best for the both of them. I truly do hope they find it. I dont wish to see his M fail or him lose his family... i want him to accomplish the things hes reaching for... in all aspects of his life. So the only concern i have is if he is doing well or not. And the only reason i have for that is the same reason i would be concerned for anyone else who i cared about even remotely.

I hope you can understand that.

Rain...

edited to say... we all have moral missteps pep... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ September 21, 2003, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: Rain ]</small>

Originally posted by Rain:
Im interested in the concepts and principles that are encouraged here

Then study the concepts , then post some more. Your original question did not show any understanding of one of the most important MB concepts .... POJA is encouraged here.... Policy Of Joint Agreement ... go look it up.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

rain,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(MM and I)are still in casual contact </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In MB-land this means the affair is not over. No contact at all for a long period of time means it's over.....dday was only 6 months ago.

Thank you Pep. I hd seen the abb. POJA before and had no idea what it stood for.

I obviously wasnt too familiar with the boards which is evident by my first posting, which i should have posted on a more appropriate board. Even now, i feel it may have been more appropriate on General... but thats ok. I will go look that up. Thanks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Rain...

Rain...

edited to say... we all have moral missteps pep... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

No sh*t shirlock .... Please, take care not to hurt others (like little children and their mommie) with your mistakes. You still have not said that what you did was morally wrong ... only that others might think of it as morally wrong. Why is that?

These are the decisions that define who you are Rain. It's not about "blame" ... it's about responsibility and accountability .... and understanding consequences not only affect the sinner ... but also those whom you have sinned against. Like their baby.

I am older than dirt ... and my past is muddier than yours .... my harsh tone is not because I think I am "better" than you ... or have made fewer mistakes than you .... I am harsh because I care what happends to little children when their families break up.

Keep your nose clean, and I'll do the same. how's that?

Pep
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Star... i can assure you... the a is over! lol... the A was over before Dday and before NC was ever initiated.

And it was NOT going to restart even without Dday.

I can assure you of that.

I will say (and i know this is not any better than the A in many of your eyes) that casual contact between us has consisted of emails - very brief. Mostly as simple as "hows things going" and a reply of "things are fine. Ive been promoted. My son is good. You?"
And then a reply of "M is doing much better, things are better, the kids are good, work is the usual. Take care"

End of story. There have been about 2 exchanges like this. When he decided to go NC the first time, according to him, it was mainly because he was afraid she was keeping up with his moves. He wanted the M to work and dindt want to screw it up. But.. hed still call occasionally from work.
Some other things happened between him and his W that i think really made him realize just how much he needed to change. He initiated NC for real that time - saying that he would simply contact me if he told his W all the details so i could be prepared for whatever was to come after that (like if she felt she needed to talk to me). His first contact was to let me know that everything was ok, that they were working through it, and that she had come to the conclusion that shed rather not speak with me, shed rather work on it and put it behind her and just live with his answers to her questions. Fair enough.

Then the other exchange was as i mentioned.

I have no desire to enter back into his life after all of this. I was front and center when the **** hit the fan.

Ive already posted my feelings on dday and why i wouldnt enter back into an A with him or anyone else.

Rain...

Pep, if you really want my view on it here it is: i myself have been betrayed. I was engaged when it happened, and obviously the M never happened. Mainly (but not completley) because of that. So of course, yes, my views were that it was morally wrong. Ive never said it was right.

In the A, it was hard to step outside to look into it. Now, yes i can see that it wasnt the right thing to do. I have wished more times than you can imagine that i could have gone back not just to erase the time i was with him when he was M'd but to erase knowing him at all. THats how painful it was. Im sure you can relate.

You say that an OW doenst need to know why a BS does/thinks what she does. So, im wondering, why it is you need to hear me say i think Affairs are morally wrong and that i made a moral misstep? Ive admitted i made a mistake, and ive acknowledged the pain involved for everyone, and ive even said this is not something i coudl ever do again for more reasons than morals...

I know you think that i need to recognize it and announce here that it is morally wrong to begin healing. but really i dont think that recognizing that its morally wrong or not is something thats vital to my healing process. I truly think everyones process is different. Perhaps hearing it is something thats vital to yours.

Thanks Pep, i really do think exchanging our viewpoints is beneficial to the both of us <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Rain...

rain,

I mean this in the nicest way....because you are really lucky in this regard....you are so young. I think I read in your twenties? That doesn't mean that I think you aren't intelligent, just not very experienced. I can't speak for pep...but my daughter is in her twenties....and like her....I did alot of learning from my mistakes when I was young. I think your choices have been bad....not that you are a bad person.

Perhaps from your perspective the A is actually over.....but casual contact is still contact which by everything we follow here is risky business for marriages. You say that you respect the theory of no contact....so why not actually respect it in thought and deed? Keeping in touch with you even ever so briefly delays the recovery of MM's marriage by keeping the flame alive (it also delays your recovery).....it's like banking the coals of a fire...and with the slightest encouragement the flame can be re-ignited.

Look at the ladies on the TOW boards who have children as well as the families that have been destroyed here. That's a lot of innocent lives to impact. Mistakes are unintentional. I once went out with a man who told me at dinner he was married. That was a mistake which I soon rectified by walking out before desert. If I had chosen to go with him again....I wouldn't have been making a mistake...but a choice. A choice that would have gone against my morals and ethics. I think that's what you did. You have never said affairs are moral or ethical...so I think you chose to go ignore what you believe for this man....that is almost always a bad bet.

Does that make you worthless, of no value, inhuman? Of course not. It does make you young, inexperienced, and unethical(in this instance).

Your persona is quite different on this board than it is on the other (I do appreciate that you haven't gotten defensive or hotheaded...quite a feat in this environment). But the difference makes me not really sure what you think, or which one is the real you. You talk about how much more open and accomodating the TOW board is.....but look at how your friend (BS)Another Wife is often treated. The slurs and obscenity are overwhelming on that board. The disrespect right down to emoticons is amazing to me. I think you've gotten treated much better here than the BS there. You wanted to test the waters here...."testing testing". I think you did that.

I also think the trolls on your board are far worse....because the BS's go over there and with no bans on obscenity it quickly becomes so incredibly awful...but I saw extreme ugliness evern between some OWs. We've had some really bad trolls here too....but the mods do try and edit the overtly crude or rude content.

Star...

I can understand where youre coming from. Yes, i am in my twenties... far more experienced than most though, which is not necessarily a good thing. I have been fending for myself and on my own since 15 or 16. And obviously, judging by my age and the length of my R with xMM he was in my life from a very young age. And yes, people make mistakes = particularly when theyre young.

But i also think you can understand how this man was engrained in my life. When i had no family, no nothing, this man was often times my only person to turn to. And vice versa. We both went through some very trying times in our personal lives, and often times only had one antoher to turn to. Anytime you depend this heavily on a person, share so much with a person, it makes it very difficult to simply walk away, no matter how many of your senses are flashing warning signals. Trust me, there were times, even before he was M'd, where as great as it was between us, i had such difficulty letting go of HIM that i just wished id never met him. And again, it was even more difficult because 1)history 2) feelings 3) dependency 4)we got along/clicked/whatever and i had no complaints of anything actually between "us".

So im sure you can understand that. And im sure you can see how even when i called it off, even on Dday, on our final agreement of NC, even though i knew this was the one thing i needed, it was the hardest thing. I had to let go of the one thing i ever knew, the one constant. But, luckily my feelings for me also allowed me to let go, knowing that this was the best not just for me, but also for him. For the things he held close to him: his family.

As for b/w TOW and here, of course i put on a slihgtly different tone here, i try hard to respect the posters here, and i am much less sarcastic. its hard to interpret through a monitor, and i dont want to offend through my sarcasm. Im a VERY sarcastic person, my humor is VERY Sarcastic... i wouldnt joke with the folks here the way i do there.

As for trolls and fights there, you have to understnd one thing... when we have trolls come there, thye have a hell of a lot more ammunition. I mean, look at it, were society's stereotypical "hoors" (as they like to call us). We dont have trolls like most sights - they come with very personal attacks, gathering personal information, have gone so far as actually usnig that personal information to harass, etc. So yes, we are way more defensive in many cases. I cant tell you the number of people who come there with the attitude that since were OWs were inhuman, no feelings, any feelings we do have are invalid, etc. Were the scum of the earth. When in fact, were simply people... caught in situations that just about any of us could find ourselves in. few of us planned to be in an EMR. Ive made choices MANY choices to not be involved in an EMR before. I went out with a guy once who later turned out to be M'd (his W was out of town for a few weeks during the time i met him). I found out he was M'd by driving one day, recognizing his car, catching up to wave only to see a woman and a baby in the car. I followed her, stopped to talk to her, had a very civilized conversation with her, explained hte situation, and i helped her bust him good. Never had anything to do with hima nd became very good friends with the BS. Turns out i wasnt the first. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Ive had other experiences too... talking to a guy, find out hes married, and immediately walk away, or tell him to go home and talk to his wife if hes lonely and wants conversation.

So i hear you loud and clear.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Rain...

rain,

You must have been just a teenager when this started. And yes....when you are that young and destitute......it's not hard to take comfort and love where you can find it. He sounds like a predator...opportunist (I ran accross that kind too). I'm glad you are free of him but I'm glad you survived and I urge you (as hard as it will be) not to accept contact from him. This time....not for his marriage....for YOU. Until you can emotionally free yourself from him.....it's going to be hard for you to freely give or accept love. Don't let this make you jaded.

Can I ask you a question? Once you become an x-OW do you think it's hard to break out of that lifestyle if you continue to spend so much time on the TOW board? Or is it easier to see the results of the A's in the tragedy and broken lives? Sometimes I think this board is too heavy and affects my life by making me OVER focus on my marriage? Do you think that happens on TOW in reverse sometimes?

Boy, these are two lively threads! I'm not going to jump in here and pounce on Rain. I just want to say that IF my WS HAD to have an affair with someone, why couldn't it be her? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
At least she had the ability to see the MM in pain, and hurting for what he did to the BS. She has the introspection to see what it did to they way she felt about herself and the desire to understand the issue more.
My WS has a propensity for finding borderlines who can think of no one but themselves.
Rain, keep reading AND posting. Knowledge is power! And best wishes for a healthy relationship with an unencumbered man!

Star - i was just graduating when i first dated him - and we dated exclusively. We got along great and had a good R for the most part. So it was very hard every time i needed to seperate myself from him for whatever reason. He wasnt much older than me, though, and just going through normal life changes and experiences also made it hard. It was like giving up your best friend from elementary school in some senses.

Even now, i can go on without contacting him but its still difficult to give up somenoe you considered to be your one true friend. I went through some very serious issues, where there were times in my life i didnt even have family to reach out to. So,... you see where it gets hard. But not impossible. Right now it is really best that we not have contact, but i also dont see it as a fault of his when he does pop in with "how are things?". I see it as completely normal behavior from anyone who had someone in their life so long. Forgetting about the A, even if it had never existed, even if wed only been just friends, it would still be difficult to go from speaking to your best friend every day for 7 years to never hearing from them again. YOu know that anyone would have to wonder if they were ok and making it and just what theyre up to in general.

But... like i said, its not impossible to not do that.

As for staying at TOW... well thats a double edged sword. Once i officially became the xOW i needed that sight like a fish needed water. Seriously. I know you dont view it that way, but i got more help and guidance and simply shoulders to cry on than i could have ever imagined. That place was my life support. Despite knowing that it was the best thing, and knowing that it was the only way to end the craziness of it all, i was HURT when dday came. More hurt by that than ending the R. Id tell you all the details that made it even harder than it really shoudl have been, but i dont think its something all the bs's here would want to hear about. But the man id cared so much for was one way one day, and the next day when dday happened, i mean, it was such a complete turn over. Not in his personality, but i mean, the dynamics of everything changed and my world was upside down for a good while (a good couple weeks). I mean, my self worth, every ounce of self esteem i had went flying out the window that night. I couldnt see how i was worth anything. Watching everyhting unfold was excruciating. Even though none of it was a surprise. It still hurt to see it all happen the way it did. I knew if dday happened, and it came down to him having to choose, i knew the hcoice hed make, but nothing could have prepared me for the conversations that followed dday. And without TOW, who knows what kind of mess i would have been. But they quickly knocked me back into reality.

Since then, its hard, yes. I watch women make the same mistakes i did, and ask all the hard questions that i always thought were a given. I watch women who are so obviously NOT ok with being the OW, so NOT ok with being with a MM, and they let their lives get so entangled to the point that they really cant muster the strength to leave, and stay in destructive Rs. Its not just that theyre TOW... sometimes its just hard watching people in less than healthy Rs. Sometimes it bothers me to see OWs be naive or ask silly questions and want to dissect everything when i want to say "this is what comes with a MM... youre either ok with it and deal with it and youre willing to accept this role in his life or youre not" but i know how unable i was to handle that, and i remember people telling me the same thing, and i just try to avoid posts that i cant offer real constructive advice.

Now... i turn to that board for support for everything in my life - work, SG, etc.

as for the other response - i dont know if thats funny or a compliment or if its sad or what! lol... (sorry i dont know your name - it wont let me scroll down to look at the post).

And as for SGs, yes, ive got one now, that ... well thats an entirely different story! Hes got a very young child with a woman who he was involved with but wasnt in a committed R with (a "fling") and theres more drama with that than i think i can handle. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> If you know what i mean. lol...

Thanks for the exchanges guys <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Rain...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>Originally posted by sandi520:
You know Pepper, presuming that you know another's motives is preposterous. You know nothing about me except for a few words at the end of my signature line.

I only responded to my understanding of what you wrote. I did not read your sig line.

I wasn't validating Rain's pain at all, not that I believe for a second that her pain is less valid than mine or any other woman who has been hurt by a man, I was validating that she had every right to ask the questions that she asked.

Yes, she has the right to ask anything she wants. And, I have the right to express an opinion ... or is this not so? My opinion is, Rain is wasting her life as an OW. She is worth much more than that. Rain is avoiding her personal recovery ... questioning a married woman's struggles with NC .... Rain has other things that should be more important to Rain .... like her own wanderings into married peoples' private lives. Like building her own character and shoring up against her own weaknesses.


You are so hung up on the fact that she was once a OW that that automatically makes her question invalid in your eyes, makes her motive for knowledge less than pure..

Many women who were formally OW are very dear friends of mine. I trust some of these FOW on MB with my personal information .... home phone etc. You are just flat out wrong here. I am not hung up that Rain was a OW .... I wonder if she's finished being an OW .... after all .... she's still involved in their personal business

Who are you to make that judgement?

I think destroying marriages and families is morally wrong. Is that not a fair judgement?

I and several others saw the questions for what they were, questions that sought answers.
I somehow think that Rain is no different than you or I, someone who loved someone who said they loved them as well.

I believe all women (and men) have the moral obligation to protect families .... this comes before our personal pleasure. I am not so sure Rain agrees with my belief. So far, her actions have spoken otherwise, but she can grow and change from her experiences. Being in love with a married man .... does not give license for immoral and cruel behaviors. Do you disagree?

Stop blaming the OW for not taking the high ground in the land of morality and face the fact that all of the people in this triangle have played a part in this.

And what part did the child of the marriage play? It's far wider than a triangle. This cruel and irresponsible behavior affects the entire extended family. And, society as a whole.

I might respect Rain's ability to take the moral high ground more than you do ! LOL!

I hope and pray that (eventually) Rain not only sees her choice to have an affair as a hurtful experience for herself, but also as a morally wrong choice. So far, she hasn't given that up.

Can you tell me what the moral mis-step of the wife was?

One day, when you have healed from this, your thought processes will be much different, and accept that all of us human beings make mistakes in our lives and we all have to live with them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Well thank you for your good wishes
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I have pretty much healed ..... for my recovery is 7 years in length. Recovery is difficult but rewarding, doncha think?

As for my thought processes .... time will tell. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I have as much to learn as anyone. I openly welcome your critique and disagreements. I really do.

Making mistakes and learning from them .... is part and partial to mature thought processes .... doncha think?

Making mistakes and having others have to live with those mistakes .... now there's an interesting rub to all of this. One has to actually care that families are being hurt.

Thanks for your thoughts Sandi

Pep

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep,
Of course, you have every right to express your point of view, but your first post to Rain was uncalled for, at least in my opinion. I may be wrong, but I think that Rain was involved with this man before he got married, as well as after. Sure, Pepper, we should all take the moral high ground, but not all of us do put our families first every day, all day. I'm not excusing Rain's involvement in this, she doesn't need me to do that.I also don't believe that she is avoiding her own recovery. I believe she is looking for answers, to what happened to her. I'm sure that Rain has more to do with her life than this, but that doesn't stop her from wanting to sort out what happened and gain some knowledge about why some things happened the way they did. I think that it is part of healing to desire to put the pieces together, to sort it out, to understand as much as one can why things happened the way they did.
I don't disagree that it is morally wrong to participate in an affair, but I also understand that some really good people make some bad decisions, and that they hurt people that they care for. I have a lot of faith that Rain or anyone else who seeks knowledge, tries to understand why an affair was a viable solution to life's problems, will not further participate. I don't understand why it's necessary for her to announce here to everyone that it was morally wrong. We all know that.
I have no idea what the wife's moral wrong was if there was any at all, but I do know that somehow we all play a part in an affair. I also don't know if the child if there is one played any part other than being a child of this particular marriage.
I am well aware of the devastation of the children and the spouse in an affair, but on the opposite side of the coin, when the BH/WS is stating that the marriage is something other than what his wife believes, and acts as though a divorce is on the horizon, and offers much the same reassurances to wife and the OW....well, it seems to me that the responsibility lies primarily with the husband /wife who is playing with both sides.
I'm not looking for an arguement, having gone through this myself, twice with my own husband, I am well aware how this plays out, and what my own husband did and said, and was capable of. I was angry for awhile at every OW, and preached the morality of affairs to anyone who would listen, but you know what Pepper, some of most compassionate, thought provoking responses came from those same OW that I at one time blamed.
My husband was solely and irrevocably responsible for the pain and the devastation he brought to himself, me, his former OW, and our children.
I wish you well Pepper, as I do everyone who has to get through the mess left behind to deal with the aftermath.