Of course, you have every right to express your point of view, but your first post to Rain was uncalled for, at least in my opinion.

Yes, you are correct, I agree with you on this point.

How lucky that you are here to point out my rudeness <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Next time I am rude, please click on my link so we don't discuss me or my lack of manners on someone else's thread. I hate to pollute Rain's thread discussing my problems.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Thanks Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

In response id like to just say a few things...

You asked what good it did to the MM's marriage by continuing contact, when I am very well aware of the pain that contact causes the wife?

While i think thats a very valid question i think its also important to look at the overall picture. Even if i dont contact him, but respond to his efforts at contact (as simple as "how are you/how are things?) that is indeed, continuing contact. I dont help the situation by responding. Surely, if the W found out about this she would feel betrayed because im sure he has reassured her there will be no further contact. However, I will say this: in the past (even since Dday) whenever he was asked if there had been contact, he was honest about the fact that contact did occur. Details werent divulged, but the fact that we spoke wasnt hidden. I think his honesty in the situation is important. However, that said... i think the damaging part of it all is not wether or not I respond to his efforts at contacts, but the mere fact that he made the contact. I think his W has some understanding about the dynamics of it all. She realizes that we were very good friends above all else, and she realizes that it wasnt easy for either of us to cut contact, but her BS experience overrides all that naturally. It is still absolutely necessary for her that he nave NO contact, im sure. I guess what im saying is, wether or not I respond, there is still the issue of his contact. If contact at all is considered "damaging" to the recovery process of the M, then the damage is done with or without my response to his contact. Not a reason for me to respond anyways, i just want to make it known that HE is doign the damage if HE chooses to initiate contact.

THen you say
"I am rude, and, what is Rain ... with her disregard for the W's very vocal hurt over the continued contact? Rain appears unaffected by W's hurt. Don't you find that strange? I do."

Its not that im unaffected, i think i am affected. Not directly by her, but her pain causes MM pain which causes me pain. I can empathize with her, and that also has an effect. But its far from disregard. I can have all the regard and empathy in the world for her, but it doesnt change the fact that i worry about and care for the person who was once my best friend. It doesnt change the fact that ill ALWAYS wonder if hes ok. It wont make it any easier to NOT respond when he asks how things are going in my life like any friend would do. Anytime you cut a friend out of your life, its difficult. No matter what the situation.

Im sure there are plenty of Ws who could not simply walk away completely from the M and never look back, no matter how abusive or bad the R was. When someone is a significant part of your life, i think its only natural that it be tough. No matter what your moral beliefs, your sympathy, your regard for others involved. If sympathy, empathy, and regard made it easier, everyone would be so much better off.

I hope that makes sense.

Rain...

ill explain the best i can...

If all of those things (empathy, sympathy, regard for the W, morality, self respect, self esteem, etc) made it easier to walk away from a situation (any situation - not just limiting this to an A), so that the more you have of it, the easier you can walk away from it... or make it easier to avoid responding back to a person when they ask how youre doing... then i would have never had an issue walking away.

All the morality, sympathy, empathy, everything in the world could not make it easy. But as we know... life is all about choices, and sometimes the best choice is not the easiest choice.

I compare it to another R i had. He treated me like crap, i wanted out desperately, i NEEDED out, he was becoming abusive in more ways than one... I knew it wasnt in my best interest, or the interest of my child, to stay for another single minute. All the common sense, all the knowledge, all the self respect in the world made leaving the most logical thing to do, but the hardest thing to do emotionally and mentally.

Thats really the only way i can describe it. Knowing somethings wrong, even when its hurts you directly, not to mention other people, doesnt make things easy.

Im sure many Ws can relate to this as well <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Its a human fault, i guess.

Rain...

Do you ever make difficult choices (saying "no" to your own desires) based on your moral obligation to be a good and decent woman to other human beings?

Pep..

seriously... what do YOU think? (considering your question asked do I EVER?)

Rain...

<small>[ September 22, 2003, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: Rain ]</small>

right .... sorry about that .... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Have a great day.

lol... thanks Pep.

Ill try to have a great day but its so dreary im having a hard time really getting in a good mood. Especially when i think about running this afternoon in this weather!

But... you have a great day too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Rain...

Hello, Rain/Raindrop

I have noticed your name popping up all over the place here, talking about NC. I have also seen some of your thread's over at TOW. You seem to have some sort of desire to gather information and/or ammunition for your position on NC.

I am a FWH, and I believe in the NC rule. Is there anything you would like to ask me? I can only give you my perspective, and I am fairly new at this. My d-day was a little over three months ago, and I have had NC for about six weeks. So while I don't have the experience of some here, I do have a fresh perspective. But I would be more than willing to discuss with you why I have accepted NC as a good idea, and why I have chosen to live by it.

Oscar

As an xOW, I'd like to contribute something to this thread.

People fall in love and develop strong emotional ties with each other. Sometimes those people are married to others.

It doesn't matter if they are right, wrong, immoral, sinful, despicable or subhuman in your eyes. The fact is that once those bonds are formed, they are very, very, very difficult to break.

Knowing about someone else's pain can inform a decision to break them, but it doesn't create the impetus to break them. Why? Because there are few things stonger in our lives than emotional ties and bond with other people.

I think everyone can agree with that. Even if you are the most "moral" person on earth, it takes more than willpower to break a deep emotional tie.

Peace.

P.S.

I write this from having also been betrayed. Long after he left to be with OW, my emotions were with him.

Oscar... thanks for your reply (and yours as well sungirl).

I also firmly believe in NC. I do hope thats clear. NC is the only thing that could really ensure that reconciliation doesnt occur in my situation. I dont believe its an absolute must to avoid reconciliation in all cases, however but i do see the need for it for rebuilding of a M.

However, my questions lie in the situations where the WH is reluctant to enforce NC on his own, or with the particular requirements of the BS. For example, (and i know all about the whys and and all that of my situation so i dont seek answers on that this is simply a very good example)... my MMs W needed to see an NC letter, stating specific things, particularly a full denial of any feelings whatsoever. It wasnt simply a "goodbye, im going to work on my M, i would like no contact".

This isnt unusual. I think that on the discovery of an A, i can see how a woman would need reassurance that he didnt care for her, that she didnt mean anything, and would want the OW to hear that maybe in hopes that it would be the one thing to keep her away.

But, while i can understand those feelings that develop upon dday, i dont see how theyre beneficial to anyone involved. Anyone. Particularly if this is not something that is sincere from the WS.

Again, i wholeheartedly agree on the concept and necessity of NC.

BUT... again, in my case, MM did not want to send a letter the way she wanted him to. He did however initiate NC on his own in his own way. I personally couldnt have sent a letter that way. Not to someone i cared anything about.

I hope im getting my point across clearly. My point is, NC yes, scripted by the BS, or sent simply because the BS needs it and not voluntarily by the WS, i dont see as beneficial to anyone. NC then (IMO) is not completely sincere, and wont be totally effective in the long run. I think EMRS are like most Rs in the sense that and ending is needed for all parties involved. Anytime someone is cut out of your life and you have no part in it, youll always seek an ending that suits you. This goes for WS, BS, and OP.

In our situation, NC was initiated twice, obviously the first time unsuccessfully. He did it the first time partly out of his Ws request (which he did agree with) and partly because he knew he couldnt get away with it so easily anymore. But he still called, he still emailed. Finally, (a couple weeks later?) he realized just how necessary it was to save his family. That if he wanted to save his family, he needed it for HIM. That it wasnt about her finding out anymore, it was because he truly needed to be honest with her for himself. Theres a huge difference there. Both times he wanted it but when he wanted it for him and HIS reasons, it worked.

Some here im sure will disagree, but i find this to be true generally. And it really has little to do with romantic feelings or anything like that. Its just that different people need different things. I understand some people can do that and turn away without ever looking back. But some cant - and it has nothing to do with feelings most of the time.

I personally, just was curious as to "why" its seen as an effective tool in rebuilding even when its not sincere OR when its not done voluntarily by the WS. If he isnt volunteering to end it, an NC letter wont end it. If the WS needs their own ending to it in another way, chances are, hell seek it. Im certainly not trying to pursuade anyone that my opinion is the right opinion, im quite certain its only applicable to some situations. But in general, i think its been found to be true.

Also, i do know that many BS's are very upset if the WS hesitates to send it, or whatever, and worry that its indicative of their rebuilding process, and i would like to say thats not always the case. My MM refused to send it, but was totally devoted to making the M work, and did do NC on his own, and once done on his own, he stuck to it as well as could be expected, imo.

I guess thats my only point. Does it make any sense?

Thanks for your reply again Oscar. And especially for being nice! lol...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Rain...
(off to a wonderful day at work!)

double post....see next page

<small>[ September 23, 2003, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

Rain,

I'll do my best to see if I can help you understand this.

I also firmly believe in NC. I do hope thats clear. NC is the only thing that could really ensure that reconciliation doesnt occur in my situation. I dont believe its an absolute must to avoid reconciliation in all cases, however but i do see the need for it for rebuilding of a M.

The only absolute must I can see....is if the marriage is going to move forward. If the MM really wants out....NC contact isn't going to work anyway. However, if the marriage has any chance at all.....no contact and lack of reconcilliation is prerequisite....anything else is unfair to all involved. The W and kids have no security, neither does the OP....the MM is the only one who benefits. It's a selfish existence and robs the other people from the ability to live honestly. That's unfair and undesirable. If he really wants the OP....he should end the marriage first instead of emotionally torturing all the other people.

However, my questions lie in the situations where the WH is reluctant to enforce NC on his own, or with the particular requirements of the BS. For example, (and i know all about the whys and and all that of my situation so i dont seek answers on that this is simply a very good example)... my MMs W needed to see an NC letter, stating specific things, particularly a full denial of any feelings whatsoever. It wasnt simply a "goodbye, im going to work on my M, i would like no contact".

One part of the equation that's probablu missing here is honesty on the part of the MM. Remember that what he tells the OP and what he tells his wife are probably two different things. He tells the OP....I don't want to say these things. They mean nothing. I don't really want no contact etc. That isn't what he tells his wife. (I'll see if I can find some WS's here who can tell you themselves what they say to the BS....but it is VERY different from what they say to their OPs) The say stuff like this: "I will do anything to keep our family together. She meant NOTHING to me. I never loved her and I'll do anything to reconcile." When men are cake eaters.....like so many of them are in this situation....they pull it off by telling each side exactly what they want to hear. One of those things is to tell the OP....that the evil wife MADE them do all of this....when in fact, often when they are found out....they are more than willing to do exactly the kind of thing that you describe....more than willing in fact.

I do not doubt at all...that some wives require these statements to hurt the OP. I do not doubt that some MM don't mean them. I do believe that part of what helps these BS's get past the infidelity is to BELIEVE that the affair meant nothing to their husbands.

After reading on the other site....I also understand something I didn't before. The OP view this particular thing as the most hurtful....the denial of feelings. It makes them feel as if all their pain was for nothing. It devalues them as human beings. I agree. But I think more than not....that if is the MM who has perpetuated this horror. It is he who has been living a lie and burning the candle at both ends. Of course he blames it all on his wife....it saves his sorry [censored] and assures him of keeping his foot in the door.

This isnt unusual. I think that on the discovery of an A, i can see how a woman would need reassurance that he didnt care for her, that she didnt mean anything, and would want the OW to hear that maybe in hopes that it would be the one thing to keep her away.

Yes, it isn't unusual for a wife to need to hear these things.....and the MM is more than happy to say them because he knows that's the only thing that will make it easy for him....smooth the way....keep his wife from leaving him. Do you think that if he said.....look I really love HER.....and I don't feel that way about you but I'll write the letter and stay....that most wives would say "sure honey". Nope. Most wives would not be able to deal with the pain of that. Oh I'm sure there are a few who have so little esteem they would keep him....but how many rain?

But, while i can understand those feelings that develop upon dday, i dont see how theyre beneficial to anyone involved. Anyone. Particularly if this is not something that is sincere from the WS.

WS's lie. They lie to everyone. They live a lie. Don't buy into it rain. They tell their wives the very thing that tears the OW apart....that she is nothing. They they sell the OW a load of goods. Its their modus operandi.....because it works for them. The wives believe that all the OW's are grasping, relentlessly pursuing their husbands....and the OW believe that the wives are horrible women who deny their H's needs and make him write these nasty things. Everybody gets played by the players.

Again, i wholeheartedly agree on the concept and necessity of NC.

BUT... again, in my case, MM did not want to send a letter the way she wanted him to. He did however initiate NC on his own in his own way. I personally couldnt have sent a letter that way. Not to someone i cared anything about.

I believe you that your MM told you that he didn't want to send the letter. What do you suppose he told his wife? More than likely....he said "Yes, I'll send the letter. Yes I'll tell her she meant nothing. Just don't throw me out."

Would I have or you.....have more respect for him if he was honest one way or another about his feelings....sure we would. It's a travesty that these WS's manage to play this out this way. It's humiliating for all involved. But please consider also the humiliation that is also involved to the wife in this scenario. I don't blame you wanting to be left with your dignity intact. She wants her dignity too. If she believes that she is really second choice...that he's settled for her....do you think she can keep her dignity? I sure couldn't. So the MM has to choose to sacrifice either yours or hers....and that's his choice.

He signs it. Most of the time, he writes it. She may dictate it with what she wants to hear...with what makes it possible for her to go on....but he signs and delivers it. Why? Because he's made a choice....he's made a choice about which partnership he most wants to salvage....hoping he can do damage control and keep it all.

I hope im getting my point across clearly. My point is, NC yes, scripted by the BS, or sent simply because the BS needs it and not voluntarily by the WS, i dont see as beneficial to anyone. NC then (IMO) is not completely sincere, and wont be totally effective in the long run. I think EMRS are like most Rs in the sense that and ending is needed for all parties involved. Anytime someone is cut out of your life and you have no part in it, youll always seek an ending that suits you. This goes for WS, BS, and OP.

After 20 years of marriage counseling....Dr.H through trial and error put these plans together with the elements that had the most success. The no contact letter was one of them. Why does it work? Well for probably some of the reasons that upset you the most. First of all....the good doctor is probably not nearly as interested in saving the dignity of the OP as he is in preserving the marriage and helping the BS retain her dignity. In fact, if you think logically about it....when the H writes this stuff to the OW....it creates even more hurt and conflict in the affair. That helps possibly create a situation where the OW might say...."hey you jerk....go home to your wife...you said I meant nothing!" It forces a choice. It is formal and in black and white with his signature on it....for all to see. He can't completely EVER take it back or make amends for it to the OW.

In our situation, NC was initiated twice, obviously the first time unsuccessfully. He did it the first time partly out of his Ws request (which he did agree with) and partly because he knew he couldnt get away with it so easily anymore. But he still called, he still emailed. Finally, (a couple weeks later?) he realized just how necessary it was to save his family. That if he wanted to save his family, he needed it for HIM. That it wasnt about her finding out anymore, it was because he truly needed to be honest with her for himself. Theres a huge difference there. Both times he wanted it but when he wanted it for him and HIS reasons, it worked.

I understand how it would make you feel better that you understood it was his choice. But no one can really force someone else to stay away from another. It's always a choice. Yes, a BS will give a WS a choice...."her or me". He can ALWAYS say "her".....but as you know....it's not always just about the wife. It's about family, morality and ethics. Being involved in an affair....while exhilarating, is also very weighty. It causes alot of guilt and confusion in these men. Ending the A and recomitting to the marriage is a way of not only reconciling with their wives....but often...reconciling with God...or their community.

Some here im sure will disagree, but i find this to be true generally. And it really has little to do with romantic feelings or anything like that. Its just that different people need different things. I understand some people can do that and turn away without ever looking back. But some cant - and it has nothing to do with feelings most of the time.

No chere....it isn't all about feelings....it's about weakness of spirit, selfishness, greed. They want it all. If a man finds a woman he loves more than his wife....or his life....then why not make a choice to end their marriage. To everything...there is a season. The tragedy is that they want everything simultaneously. It's not a feeling of love....it's a feeling of entitlement. Somehow they believe that the rules don't apply to them...that they can have all that they want. When we as women allow them to do that (W or OW) then we devalue ourselves...we enable their deception and selfishness. We make it possible. To stop that...to take back our dignity....he must choose.

I personally, just was curious as to "why" its seen as an effective tool in rebuilding even when its not sincere OR when its not done voluntarily by the WS. If he isnt volunteering to end it, an NC letter wont end it. If the WS needs their own ending to it in another way, chances are, hell seek it. Im certainly not trying to pursuade anyone that my opinion is the right opinion, im quite certain its only applicable to some situations. But in general, i think its been found to be true.

I urge you to read stories here from the WS's who have written these letters. The bottom line about why we use them....is that they are part of the stategy Dr.H designed around the things that WORK. Just look at the unhappiness it causes within the A.....the very thing you are talking about. I just think that you're placing the blame for the indignity of these letters in the wrong place. I may not be able to make you believe that these WS's actually SAY these things to their wives....but I can tell you the stuff my H said to me. "It meant NOTHING. I love YOU. It was never about LOVE...it was about SEX."

Also, i do know that many BS's are very upset if the WS hesitates to send it, or whatever, and worry that its indicative of their rebuilding process, and i would like to say thats not always the case. My MM refused to send it, but was totally devoted to making the M work, and did do NC on his own, and once done on his own, he stuck to it as well as could be expected, imo.

No one but the MM himself will ever really know why he hesitates to send it. He may not want to hurt the OW. He may not want to give up his cake. He may not be sure of his decision. He may think it's too controlling. He may just be a complete [censored]. But I know this....in that state of mind....he lies to everyone to make himself look better because he feels guilty and miserable because he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. The wives are three dimensional just like the OWs. Most of them are good people who just want to save their marriages...not the harridans their cakemen describe. Just like most of you are real people who don't deserve deception.

Remember however, that you all have a choice too....to keep your dignity...not because he gave it or took it away in a LETTER....but because you SEIZED it! YOU don't wait until dday but tell him to choose long before that and be willing to move on if he chooses his family.

I guess thats my only point. Does it make any sense?

It does make sense.....I hope that some of what I had to say makes sense too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hello again, Rain,

Actually, I think a lot of what you say make sense, especially the part about if a WS writes an NC letter, only because they think they should, is it really sincere, and will they stick to it. Obviously some won't, as is witnessed by the numerous starts and stops of NC in some cases.

In my case, and again, I speak only for myself, I did write a letter, but it wasn't an MB type NC letter, as I wrote it before I found this website. I understand why MB suggests that letters be "non-emotional", and why they should be "reviewed" by the spouse, as opposed to "dictated" by the spouse. In my short time over at TOW, I got the distinct impression people there think that the spouse generally dictates what the WS will write, and forces them to sign it. And, this probably happens sometimes.

But what I found is what is said here, by many proponents of NC. In trying to be nice, and sweet, and not hurt any feelings in an NC letter, you are actually leaving the "feelings" door open. Anything can be misread or misinterpreted to mean whatever the reader wants it to mean. So you should try to be as "blunt" as possible.

The NC letter is, as I see it, a tool for recovery for everyone involved...the WS, the BS, and even the OP.

As for it being a letter, that allows the writer time to draft it in a way that is comfortable, in a setting where they can hopefully be honest about their true feelings. A letter allows you to say what you have to say, without fear of getting caught up in the emotions of a face to face meeting. It also allows you to speak without being interupted by objections, advances, crying, and whatever. It allows you to say what you want to say, in a way you want it said.

I didn't even mention my letter to my wife for almost three weeks. At that time I told her that she was welcome to read it, and that she could even read the reply that came from OW. She declined.

In closing, let me say this. I see the NC letter as a form of communication, but also kind of a "mission statement". When I wrote mine, I was still in the throngs of "fog", I was still doubting what was going to happen. But, when I sat down and rationally thought about the situation I had helped to create, I knew what I wanted the outcome to be. I wanted to stay with my W, and be a good H to her, and a good father to my kids. I also wanted that for my OW. I wanted her to be able to rebuild her marriage to her H, and raise her own children. I wrote the letter, and broke off the A, as much for her, as I did for me. In my mind, breaking off the A was a deeper act of love than continuing it. Because it will be better for everyone involved in the long run, if we can both make our marriages work. So I wrote the letter. I wrote it to help me focus on what was important to me; I wrote it to try and convey those feelings to my OW, and also to help her try and see what should be important to her; I wrote it as a "mission statement" of what my future actions were going to be; and I wrote it to tell her goodbye, in as gentle a manner as possible, while not sending any mixed messages about my feelings. And I offered to show it my wife as a symbol of openness and trust between us. Not for her approval, but rather for her understanding.

Just my thoughts,

Oscar

You say your MM initiated NC. You say he did not want to send a letter the way she wanted him to.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope im getting my point across clearly. My point is, NC yes, scripted by the BS, or sent simply because the BS needs it and not voluntarily by the WS, i dont see as beneficial to anyone. NC then (IMO) is not completely sincere, and wont be totally effective in the long run. I think EMRS are like most Rs in the sense that and ending is needed for all parties involved. Anytime someone is cut out of your life and you have no part in it, you’ll always seek an ending that suits you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How can we can really judge someone elses actions? How can we can know for sure what is sincere and what is not?

You keep stating that the BS MAKES the WS send the letter. The WS has a choice in this. She was NOT holding a gun to his head. He has the choice to make his own decisions and he could flat out refuse. If a WS sends the letter stating what the BS is requesting, I believe it is a strong indication of his respect for her feelings and a attempt to meet her needs. Otherwise, he would NOT send it.

The cold hard truth is that if she requested the letter and he DID send one, it was his choice ultimately. Even if he didn’t send the letter, but requested No Contact, the fact is he still is with his wife. He has made this choice to be there instead of leaving her.

I believe NC is essential for recovery. In the end, no contact is NO CONTACT regardless of how it is initiated or achieved...by a letter or word of mouth. Regardless of how it is done, I would take any request for no contact by a WS as sincere.

I don’t understand all this big hoopla over the “letter”. No, it really doesn’t makes sense.

Is this really the issue?

I have been a WS myself….(a WS that was STUCK in the mire for far, far too long.)

Could it be that you are still coming to terms with the fact that he is with her and not you? I did that.

Are you trying to understand how she could control him and he would allow it? (Why she would demand letter and he would do it while not agreeing with it?)Are you wondering who is he telling the truth to, you are her? I did that.

Are you obsessing over her? I did that.

All of these things are a huge waste of emotional energy. It is a deterrent to your recovery. Please focus more on you and what you can control instead of trying to figure out the actions of someone you can’t control.

I wish you all the best.

Susan <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Where do i even begin!? lol...

First ones first. Im sorry, ill just have to post 3 replies to cover this one. My brain is on overload this morning but either way, im in a good mood ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> But i have to say, im really really anxious to answer Susan! lol...

Star...
Really, i dont think were so far off from one another. (whew).

A few things id like to address: (and i dont like this little '' '' feature, so pardon me while i do it "my way" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )... you say:

The only absolute must I can see....is if the marriage is going to move forward. If the MM really wants out....NC contact isn't going to work anyway. However, if the marriage has any chance at all.....no contact and lack of reconcilliation is prerequisite....anything else is unfair to all involved. The W and kids have no security, neither does the OP....the MM is the only one who benefits. It's a selfish existence and robs the other people from the ability to live honestly. That's unfair and undesirable. If he really wants the OP....he should end the marriage first instead of emotionally torturing all the other people.

ABSOLUTELY! NC is an absolute prerequisite for rebuilding a M. SINCERE NC.

Then...

One part of the equation that's probablu missing here is honesty on the part of the MM. Remember that what he tells the OP and what he tells his wife are probably two different things. He tells the OP....I don't want to say these things. They mean nothing. I don't really want no contact etc. That isn't what he tells his wife. ...

Yes, often times this IS the case. I know what a LOT of them tell their Ws. Ive had friends as BSs in Real life, as well as on the board. Ive been betrayed myself and seen both sides. A strange thing happened in my situation, which gave me way more insight than i cared for. I knew FIRST HAND what he was telling the W and what the W was asking and what the W was sayign about me. Its hard to explain. It was a friend of mine that emailed the W (anonymously). It happened during a work day. 100 emails must have gone back and forth between this (then) anonymous emailer, and the W. My mailbox began getting filled every few minutes with emails. MM called me to let me know w got the emails. Then I let him know i was getting the correspondence as well. In the emails the W told the anonymous emailer (they got to be quite good friends <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) all the things she was asking MM, all the ways she was trying to find out more info, and asking the anonymous person lots of questions as well. She also told the anonymous person all the answers MM gave her, and the anonymous person verified or clarified information about the "truth". Im sure you can imagine the email exchanges. Like i said, i got ALLLL the responses. Even the ones where MM would deny something and hte anonymous emailer would call him out on it. Trust me, on one hand it infuriated me to know he denied it, and then id say "really rain... you KNOW hes gonna keep his family, if he wants his family hes NOT gonna tell her THAT!". Common sense, so i was angry and hurt, but accepted it for what it was. One thing though, was like i said, W knew of our R before she m'd him and knew that he cared for me before the M. I think in some ways this made it more painful, and in some ways it eased the pain. she knew that if he DID cheat, he didnt go looking after he met her. But... there was still the million dollar question "did he actually cheat?" (he swore it was simply friendship until he went NC in which he supposedly stopped denying her accusations).
So... i dont think she had questions of IF the feelings were there, she knew how he felt about me before, the question was did he still have them and if so why he married her, and was it just becasue she was PG at the time, and so on. I know from him and from common sense, that while it played a part, hes a big boy with a mind of his own and a responsible person and would not have married her just because of the PG.

Also you said... :
after reading on the other site....I also understand something I didn't before. The OP view this particular thing as the most hurtful....the denial of feelings. It makes them feel as if all their pain was for nothing. It devalues them as human beings. I agree. But I think more than not....that if is the MM who has perpetuated this horror. It is he who has been living a lie and burning the candle at both ends. Of course he blames it all on his wife....it saves his sorry [censored] and assures him of keeping his foot in the door.
Yes absolutely. Ill be the first to acknowledge it. DDay is ALLLLLL about him saving his [censored]... and that goes for conversations and stories he gives to everyone involved. It may not be the only reason, but it will be hte primary reason. I was fortunate (i say that sarcastically) enough to have a MM who was VERY blunt (maybe too much)... and flat out said "look im saving my [censored] here. I love my wife... i hate to do this, but you know what i have to do if i want to save my family and my [censored]". Point taken.

WS's lie. They lie to everyone. They live a lie. Don't buy into it rain. They tell their wives the very thing that tears the OW apart....that she is nothing. They they sell the OW a load of goods. Its their modus operandi.....because it works for them. The wives believe that all the OW's are grasping, relentlessly pursuing their husbands....and the OW believe that the wives are horrible women who deny their H's needs and make him write these nasty things. Everybody gets played by the players.

Very true, but i dont think that applies to all situations. once youre in an EMR, the only option (as youve said) to make it work for them is to lie. Even after we split (before DDay), MM would have never told his W about the A, no matter how much he loved her. He didnt want to deal with that if he didnt have to, he didnt want to see her hurt, he didnt want to lose his family. its multidimensional. Again, lucky me (sarcasm) never got the "horrible" wife story. lol...

I believe you that your MM told you that he didn't want to send the letter. What do you suppose he told his wife? More than likely....he said "Yes, I'll send the letter. Yes I'll tell her she meant nothing. Just don't throw me out."

Actually not quite so. Judging from her emails... and his phone calls, she was furious he wouldnt send it, naturally. According to them both, he basically told her he saw no reason to do it. She was hoping that the email from him would spark a resonse from me (to her) out of anger of being denied if there was an A. She thought if i didnt respond like that, and instead gave a confused response or no response at all, it would prove there was no A. Even my friend (the anonymous emailer) warned her it might not work otu that way. I think thats partly why she dropped the idea. He never did agree to send the letter, but i think it was not because he didnt want to hurt me as much as he knew it wasnt going to accomplish something nad he was able to get her to drop the subject.

"Would I have or you.....have more respect for him if he was honest one way or another about his feelings....sure we would. It's a travesty that these WS's manage to play this out this way. It's humiliating for all involved. But please consider also the humiliation that is also involved to the wife in this scenario. I don't blame you wanting to be left with your dignity intact. She wants her dignity too. If she believes that she is really second choice...that he's settled for her....do you think she can keep her dignity? I sure couldn't. So the MM has to choose to sacrifice either yours or hers....and that's his choice. "

I understand that. Precisely why i always encouraged him to do what he felt he needed to do. I would make it. I would never speak to him even as a friend and would hate him, lol... but it was his choice. I made it very clear that if he chose to sacrifice me in a way he wouldnt normally do, that i wasnt buying the "i had to - the W MADE me do it" story... he was his own person. He didnt HAVE to send it (he argued he did if he wanted to keep his family). I simply informed him he did have a choice, but it was more of a matter of choosing his consequences. He could have me hating him or her hating him. Pick. Somehow he squirmed out of the NC letter like i said, but in the end, we were all able to keep our dignity i believe. We all know who he chose and why, and were all quite ok with the way things were handled. Not ideal for anyone involved, i guess you could say we all compromised something in those weeks. But in the end it really all worked out the best possible way it could have. And by that i mean dday, nto the A of course.

"He signs it. Most of the time, he writes it. She may dictate it with what she wants to hear...with what makes it possible for her to go on....but he signs and delivers it. Why? Because he's made a choice....he's made a choice about which partnership he most wants to salvage....hoping he can do damage control and keep it all. "

WELL SAID. Damage control. I dont think MM hoped to keep it all. In an ideal world maybe. It was a tough decision for him i know... but i know he did what we all knew was right. He didnt choose it simply for the kids or to save his [censored], he chose it because thats whta he really wanted in the end. Although to get that, he had to save his [censored]. Make sense?

"After 20 years of marriage counseling....Dr.H through trial and error put these plans together with the elements that had the most success. The no contact letter was one of them. Why does it work? Well for probably some of the reasons that upset you the most. First of all....the good doctor is probably not nearly as interested in saving the dignity of the OP as he is in preserving the marriage and helping the BS retain her dignity. In fact, if you think logically about it....when the H writes this stuff to the OW....it creates even more hurt and conflict in the affair. That helps possibly create a situation where the OW might say...."hey you jerk....go home to your wife...you said I meant nothing!" It forces a choice. It is formal and in black and white with his signature on it....for all to see. He can't completely EVER take it back or make amends for it to the OW. "

Youre right in logical thought. However, its something that i simply disagree with in full. It sounds to me (and this could be my interpretation) that NC is to happen at all costs, no matter what, in a letter, approved by the BS, no question abou tit, wether the MM feels he needs to handle it another way or not.

God how i wish it were so simple. I simply think there are other ways that work in many situations. Just as, if not more, effectively.

Thats JMHO though

"I understand how it would make you feel better that you understood it was his choice. But no one can really force someone else to stay away from another. It's always a choice."

It wasnt even about it making me feel bettr necessarily. HE felt better when it was his choice, and was able to stick to it, which is what i think really matters when trying to rebuild a M.

"No chere....it isn't all about feelings....it's about weakness of spirit, selfishness, greed. They want it all. If a man finds a woman he loves more than his wife....or his life....then why not make a choice to end their marriage"

I think in this case it was more than about that even. And less about greed. We had more than one discussion about how on earth we were going to walk away. The problem in us lies in the fact that we had feelings that existed prior to it all. It wasnt that he found someone he loves more than his wife, it was (according to him of course) that he couldnt stop loving someone even though he really truly loved his W and family. Greed i suppose, in the definition of the word, played in... he knew to have her he couldnt have me (by her standards)... and he did what he could to keep them both. And it all came crashing down on him.

I urge you to read stories here from the WS's who have written these letters. The bottom line about why we use them....is that they are part of the stategy Dr.H designed around the things that WORK. Just look at the unhappiness it causes within the A.....the very thing you are talking about. I just think that you're placing the blame for the indignity of these letters in the wrong place. I may not be able to make you believe that these WS's actually SAY these things to their wives....but I can tell you the stuff my H said to me. "It meant NOTHING. I love YOU. It was never about LOVE...it was about SEX."

I do believe WS's say these things. Yes, for a while i questioned if MM said those things (even though it was apparant by his letters from his W that he wasnt - to much of her frustration he wasnt saying much at all and just trying to get her to "drop it already"). I had to simply let it go that it really didnt matter, it didnt change the end result one iota. So i did. Ill go by the only thing i can: my knowledge of what happened, her letters, and what he said.

"No one but the MM himself will ever really know why he hesitates to send it. He may not want to hurt the OW. He may not want to give up his cake. He may not be sure of his decision. He may think it's too controlling. He may just be a complete [censored]. But I know this....in that state of mind....he lies to everyone to make himself look better because he feels guilty and miserable because he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. The wives are three dimensional just like the OWs. Most of them are good people who just want to save their marriages...not the harridans their cakemen describe. Just like most of you are real people who don't deserve deception. "

Absolutely.

Remember however, that you all have a choice too....to keep your dignity...not because he gave it or took it away in a LETTER....but because you SEIZED it! YOU don't wait until dday but tell him to choose long before that and be willing to move on if he chooses his family.

Absolutely. This is one of the things i think that applies to BS's and OWs. Sometimes you ahve to rely on your own memory of what actually was and the reality of what actually is, accept it and move on and do the best you can from there.

It does make sense.....I hope that some of what I had to say makes sense too.

Yes it does. Like i said, i dont think were so far apart. Now that youre not bullying me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

thanks star... i really do appreciate your input. Like i said, its really difficult for me to speak about "most" situations. I dont feel my situation was "most " situations by any means. in some ways yes, of course. but in other ways, no. When i see a lot of other situations, im glad that if i did have to go through this all (and we wont start in on the "well you didnt HAVE to go through it", please), that i went through it with someone who was about as honest in it all as one could expect. With a W who didnt go nutso, who had reasonable expectations for the most part, who was probably more than understanding, even if she did go through some rough spots. I really hope she comes to terms with all of it in the long run. Truly, i dont want her to ever think that his A was me was an indication of his feelings for her. I certainly dont see it that way, even vice versa. Its a rough conclusion to come too though unless youve been in the spot of loving and caring for more than one person.

Thanks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Rain...

Oscar... thank you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You said...
"I understand why MB suggests that letters be "non-emotional", and why they should be "reviewed" by the spouse, as opposed to "dictated" by the spouse. In my short time over at TOW, I got the distinct impression people there think that the spouse generally dictates what the WS will write, and forces them to sign it. And, this probably happens sometimes.

But what I found is what is said here, by many proponents of NC. In trying to be nice, and sweet, and not hurt any feelings in an NC letter, you are actually leaving the "feelings" door open. Anything can be misread or misinterpreted to mean whatever the reader wants it to mean. So you should try to be as "blunt" as possible. "

Absolutely... i can understand it as well... and i can see where in some situations it is the best thing to do (not leave "feelings" open). However, IMO, that feelings are not always such a bad thing, so long as they are honest. Its one thing to be honest, and just leave out information, its another thing to just lie. There are (IMO) healthy, appropriate, and effective ways of ending a R of any kind without being mean. In cases where that doesnt work, weve all had to deal with it at one point lol, the person that cant be let down easily, then yes, bluntness can be necessary.

Sometimes though a simple, as you call it, mission statement, is really all thats necessary, again IMO and in my little world i live in <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

"The NC letter is, as I see it, a tool for recovery for everyone involved...the WS, the BS, and even the OP. "

NC, in the form of a letter or not, is defniitely a tool for recovery for everyone involved.

"As for it being a letter, that allows the writer time to draft it in a way that is comfortable, in a setting where they can hopefully be honest about their true feelings. A letter allows you to say what you have to say, without fear of getting caught up in the emotions of a face to face meeting. It also allows you to speak without being interupted by objections, advances, crying, and whatever. It allows you to say what you want to say, in a way you want it said. "

Yes i can agree with you. I personally am better able to express myself (as sad as it sounds because even thats not so well!) in letter form. I can say things in ways i normally cant put across in words. Not everyone is like that. And thats simply why im not a firm believer in "nc letter and letter form only is the ONLY way to go for EVERYONE". I dont think any ONE way of doing things is ever right for everyone.

I appreciate your thoughts Oscar. I think that you did the best you could. I think that you feel that you made the right choice for yourself, and i really do admire the way you handled it, and your reasons for handling it the way you did. I think in several years time, youll be able to look at the way you handled it,a nd youll be pleased with yourself. Which is important in the scope of things.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Really, thank you Oscar. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Rain...