Susan... lol... boy i just couldnt wait <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

"How can we can really judge someone elses actions? How can we can know for sure what is sincere and what is not?"

There is NO WAY. Only they know what is sincere and what is not. I knew my MMs first attempt at NC, while a sincere gesture, was not for the right reasons for "him"... otherwise, i dont think he would have felt the need to continue contacting me. Now... judging by his actions i feel hes finally gotten what he needed, and he did things for the right reasons for him and that things will work out the best.

"You keep stating that the BS MAKES the WS send the letter. The WS has a choice in this. She was NOT holding a gun to his head. He has the choice to make his own decisions and he could flat out refuse. If a WS sends the letter stating what the BS is requesting, I believe it is a strong indication of his respect for her feelings and a attempt to meet her needs. Otherwise, he would NOT send it. "

Yes, youre right. However... my point is... when requirements are set forth on a person... they may DO something, and in order to get the desired outcome, theyll do what it takes. Had MMs W continued to press him and said "NC letter liek i said or Divorce" and he thought shed follow through you can bet the bank Hed have sent that letter! lol... However... letter or no letter, him choosing to work on his M is an indication of his respect for her and his desires to make it work.

"The cold hard truth is that if she requested the letter and he DID send one, it was his choice ultimately. Even if he didn’t send the letter, but requested No Contact, the fact is he still is with his wife. He has made this choice to be there instead of leaving her."

No doubts about that Susan. There were never doubts about that. many a discussions were had, we didnt see how wed ever have a dday, but we discussed the what ifs. ANd in the end, he didnt send the letter, but he did request No contact, and we have both stuck to that (contrary to popular belief, i suppose its a difference in opinion on definition and whats acceptable). He is indeed still with his w, and he will remain there, im sure of that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

"Regardless of how it is done, I would take any request for no contact by a WS as sincere."

And i planned to as well... as i told MM. There would be no "but i dont mean it". But i do know that it is NOT always sincere. And often times it is, even if it is difficult for them to hold themselves to.

"I don’t understand all this big hoopla over the “letter”. No, it really doesn’t makes sense."

Lol... my point exactly, although i dont think we mean it in hte same context <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I completely understand having NC, even requesting it in the form of a letter, if thats the way the WS chooses to handle the situation. I simply think that (and this i know will likely get blasted to pieces) that like anyone else in any other relationship, the R and the people involved, deserve an ending that they are comfortable with. Wether its walking away with a simple NC letter, and never looking back or thinking twice, or saying "look, i did this person wrong, they deserve an apology from me, as do you, and i will let them know i need to end my R with them to save my M becuase my M is most importatn to me".

I dont think theres one simple prescription that will cure all problems particularly in an EMR. In every day life, people handle things differently in different situations. Weve all had different ways of ending different relationships. My last SG i dated, it ended the way most BSs would liek to see MMs end it. It was one conversation that basically said "we dont ever need to speak ever again" and that was that. Mutual, but very blunt, no "im gonna miss you" no nothing. There were feelings there, but that was the way that R needed to end for us.

Is this really the issue?
Um... yes.

"Could it be that you are still coming to terms with the fact that he is with her and not you? I did that."

No... i knew it would be this way. i wont say it was easy. it was excruciating seeing the reality of it all. No doubts about that. but truly in many ways, im happier now. Im happy that hes happy. Im happy i dont have the ties of the EMR holding me back in my Rs in my own life. Im happy that hes reconciling and doesnt have the guilt and ties in his life anymore. I loved that man, no doubts. But in no way do i envy his life, his M, or his situation all over. We took very different courses in life, and it was discussed many times wether wed make it over the long run if he had never gotten married. We both tend to think that yes one on one we might have. But our careers would have led us down very differnet paths... one of us would have had to sacrifice dearly. Not that we both didnt mind, but it was something neithr of us could have ever asked of the other. So... our roads i do think were meant to go this way.

"Are you trying to understand how she could control him and he would allow it? (Why she would demand letter and he would do it while not agreeing with it?)Are you wondering who is he telling the truth to, you are her? I did that."
No... i know him, i know her, i know how M works. I expected everythign to happen pretty much the way it did. Not to a "t" but over all. I had a hard time with why she demanded the letter at first, esp because originally i think it was intended only to get a jab in at me. but i think as time went on i saw that wasnt her only intentions and i do empathize with her situation. Remember, i love the same man she does. i see them same things in him she does. I know how she feels. There was never much question about the truth aspect of it all. Maybe at first, naturally...

"Are you obsessing over her? I did that."

lol.. far from it. Again, at first, i think i had a natural desire to want to know what was going on in her head. But... not anymore. Things really worked out in a way just right for me to handle it. I cant think of many more ways that i would have wanted things to go down with him choosing his M. In fact, this question of mine wasnt spurred by my situation at all.

"All of these things are a huge waste of emotional energy. It is a deterrent to your recovery. Please focus more on you and what you can control instead of trying to figure out the actions of someone you can’t control."

Ive recovered from this part of my life. i have other areas of my life that are requiring work but this isnt one of them. I dont question her actions, but i do look at situations around me and naturlaly wonder how things work. From people to machines. Just in my nature. In fact, i think its probably been the best thing for me. The more i ask questions and find out why individuals do the things they do (in all kinds of areas of life) the more i can look at my own life, and find the answers i need. Not even relating to MM. I have some serious issues with my mother, my father, stepfather, and just people in general. Im finding that every situation is different and truly unique and that most people, no matter how awful their actions, are just like me - trying to sort everything out.

Thanks for your input. I do appreciate it. Alwasy keeping my midn rolling. i have to admit, these discussions did cause me to think "do i have unresolved issues from the EMR that im just not aware of". and then SG came over and i thought "not no - but HE!! no <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> " It really worked out for the best. I couldnt have made some of the progress and changes in my life that i have since Dday without that experience.

Thats one of the few positives about all the pain i went through. I had to go through all that, just to get where i am. SHame how that happens isnt it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Rain...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its one thing to be honest, and just leave out information, its another thing to just lie. There are (IMO) healthy, appropriate, and effective ways of ending a R of any kind without being mean. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A couple of more things, then I'll butt out and let others debate this.

I guess I have a problem with lying by exclusion vs. "just plain lying". Their both lying. Now, as to honesty, my OW once said, when we talked about how this was all going to come out, "It's one thing to be honest, it's another to be cruel." And I agree. I have been honest with my W about everything I've told her. But I didn't tell her everything, all at once. That would have been cruel, and, in my opinion, would have put her into overload and made the entire situation worse. But through several long talks, we have talked about everything. Now, have I told her every little detail, every comment, made every time OW and I were together. No. Why? Because she probably doesn't want to hear it. She knows how I felt about the OW, she knows what we did physically, she knows everything of pertinance. And she also knows how I feel about her, and what I think we both did wrong to make it possible for me to do this.

Your comment about feelings...I am a whole hearted believer in not trying to lie about or deny your feelings. That's where big time mental illness develops, as far as I'm concerned. But there is a huge difference between acknowledging feelings, sharing feelings, and acting on those feelings. Just because I feel something, doesn't mean I have the right or the responsibility to share it with someone. It just means I have the feeling. To not act on it is not denying it, it is controlling it. There is a difference. I will never deny that I was, and still am to some degree, in love the the OW. I have told my W this. But, to share that with the OW, and to "lead her on" by sharing it, when I wasn't sure how I was going to resolve it, was wrong. I don't know that I believe in "inappropriate feelings", but I sure believe in "inappropriate responses(actions) to feelings".
Plus, as I'm sure you know, as having been involved in A's, you are not always thinking rationally when in the midst of an A and it's passion.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I'll butt out now, and let the experts talk.

Oscar

my MMs W needed to see an NC letter, stating specific things, particularly a full denial of any feelings whatsoever.
To deny there were any feelings is not gonna help.
However, in a no-contact letter, it should not be stated that there were feelings. It SHOULD be stated that the affair was wrong and no-contact MUST be done to repair the marriage.

It wasnt simply a "goodbye, im going to work on my M, i would like no contact".
Also in the letter should be a paragraph about how the affair was wrong and many people got hurt because of it.

The letter is to show the bs that the ws is committed to at least trying. Also, it gives the ws and the op a definitive break. If the letter contains "I'll always love you", "if it was another time" stuff, then the relatiosnhip will not really end.

The NC letter is, as I see it, a tool for recovery for everyone involved...the WS, the BS, and even the OP.
Exactly!

He signs it. Most of the time, he writes it. She may dictate it with what she wants to hear...with what makes it possible for her to go on....but he signs and delivers it.
The ws writes it, the ws signs it. The bs may have some input but it should not be "dictated". Also, it should be delivered (mailed) by the bs, NOT the ws. This insures it actually gets in the mailbox and also that it doesn't get changed. For the same reasons face-to-face endings doesn't work.

Oscar,
I didn't even mention my letter to my wife for almost three weeks. At that time I told her that she was welcome to read it, and that she could even read the reply that came from OW. She declined.
You wrote a no-contact letter so that means no-contact. No reading of anything from her. Just say no.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is NO WAY. Only they know what is sincere and what is not. I knew my MMs first attempt at NC, while a sincere gesture, was not for the right reasons for "him"... otherwise, i dont think he would have felt the need to continue contacting me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Rain, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You say there is no way we can know if anothers actions are sincere or not.

Then you say you knew your MM's first attempt at no contact was for the wrong reasons.

How can you know that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

It's similar to an alcoholic or any addiction. You know what is best for yourself, but that doesn't mean they don't fall off the wagon a few times before they finally get it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Had MMs W continued to press him and said "NC letter liek i said or Divorce" and he thought shed follow through you can bet the bank Hed have sent that letter! lol... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What does this say to you?

Susan <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ September 23, 2003, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Susan ]</small>

geez oscar... are you sure youre not my MM!? lol... only our dday happened more than 3 months ago.

I think you handled things just fine, and im pretty in line with your thoughts.

Pep... i know its very difficult to understand. But truly, his feelings for me did not make his feelings for her any less.

Any feelings he may have had do not disappear upon repeating your vows. I am a firm believer in being capable of loving two people. I can see where actig on those feeligns can be considered a different story, but i think for many people just the fact that they feel that way without acting on it is just as painful...

But i know its not a common view point.

Rain...

Susan, aside from him saying so himself, i believe that if it were the right reasons for HIM then he could have stuck to it. And it proved to be true.

Either way, i was willing to respect his request by not contacting him.

Rain...

Rain,

Let me explain it as a former wandering husband. I will avoid flames or judgments about OP's in the process - it is somewhat hypocritical for me to bash them when I once risked my family over one.

The No Contact letter is really not about you. Hopefully, the side effect of it will be to make the OW understand that when push comes to shove it is the OW who will be pushed and shoved out the door.

But again, the NC letter is not for you.
It is the very beginning of the debt that a WS needs to pay back for their betrayal. If you really want to understand how a betrayed spouse feels then read past the words and hear what all of them are shouting - "You valued her more than me and I was second on your list".

It certainly seems that way to a BS. As a regular poster on TOW you know this is not really true - the vast majority of cheaters have absolutely no real intent to leave for the OW and when they do it almost always ends badly.

So view a NC letter for what it is - it is a statement written by the WS to tell the BS that they are more important than the OW. Hopefully the WS is writing it truthfully. It also tells you that a choice has been made and that you are not part of this person's life any longer.

I will try to stretch and think about it from your point of view. Assuming your MM did not mean it and did not want to send it (What he told you - if he can fool the person he lives with it is not hard to fool you a few hours per week hon) then you are still faces with one inescapable conclusion. He is denying that you matter to his BS. Now, assuming TOW believes that this man no longer cares for his wife and TOW is first in his heart, the very act of writing the letter in front of BS should be a very clear signal to TOW that the wife is still matters, and in fact your importance is nothing compared to the marriage.

One other thing you are missing perhaps - TOW is not part of the marriage. The NC letter is not to give you closure it is not a kind farewell and it is simply evidence that demands a verdict - you have been lied to, deceived and used by someone who does not respect your feelings enough to admit that his wife matters more.

There is nothing flattering about being chosen as an affair partner. I won't judge you, that's been done. I will, however, point out to you something that might be worthwhile. I have a group of male friends who are all FWH. We had a chat one time about OWs and what they meant. In 12/13 cases there was a consensus of "Y'know, I told her whatever I had to in order to keep her happy and quiet until the next time I wanted sex"

It is very disturbing to me that I agree with that - OW was a diversion and a thing, she got no real respect and minimal emotion.

Not to be cruel but the fact that almost all WH return to their spouses should tell you something, (You all TOW's, not you Rain) it should tell you that in the end you never had the MM. You had the parts of him that were required to keep you meeting his need for excitement, affirmation or sex.

Sadly, most WH are very gifted liars and use the OW as they would a condom - they are used for gratification, wiped off and tossed in the trash. If there is anything I can offer to you to tell your board - tell the OW's to take an honest evaluation. When you roll over at night to find an empty bed and your lover is lying with his wife and you are not allowed to call it is pretty good evidence that your feelings are immaterial to him.

Back to no contact letters - they state what TOW should already know. A cheater has betrayed two people and can only comfort one, and the cheater has chosen the spouse and completely disregarded the OW. The part that is less obvious? This is not a new situation, it has always been there but now the truth has been revealed completely and can't be rationalized away with "She made me write it". someone can only compel you to do that when they matter more than the person being cast aside. IF the OW is valued more than the spouse as you were led to believe then he would never agree to the letter, it is more selfishness on the part of the WS - he has chosen to cast aside the person he was using for the person he believes is truly best.

Good luck to you.

Pep... i know its very difficult to understand. But truly, his feelings for me did not make his feelings for her any less.

FEELINGS are temporary. VOWS are supposed to mean something. Like respect, protection, care and fidelity.

I really wish you would shift your focus toward principles and honor.

His "feelings" for you mean nothing. nothing. nothing. I don't care one whit about his feelings for you .... He can love you secretly until his dying day .... WHO CARES? His honor and his spiritual wellbeing are way more important.

His disrespect for his vows and his disrespect for his wife's emotional safety means EVERYTHING.

Any feelings he may have had do not disappear upon repeating your vows.

again with the "feelings" .... stop. Vows are not feelings. Vows are a spiritual promise to God, promising fidelity and to honor and to cherish .... not undying feelings. That's just a very immature way of navigating life's important decisions .... feelings.

I am a firm believer in being capable of loving two people.

Of course you are. That's from your upbringing. I felt that way too .... in the 60's when i was a hippie. I "loved" lots of people. And I was not a better person for it. It was superficial conditional love that was self-gratification at it's most lethal level. Loving feelings toward two people is completely different from keeping marital vows. THAT is about honoring yourself, honoring your word, honoring your reputation.

I can see where actig on those feeligns can be considered a different story, but i think for many people just the fact that they feel that way without acting on it is just as painful...

Then do not EVER take vows of marriage, if you anticipate you cannot keep your word..... because itis too painful for you to not follow wherever your "feelings" lead you. Forget your principles, go with your feelings.

But i know its not a common view point.

I disagree. It's a very common viewpoint amongst 20 year olds. "What's in it for me?" flavor of "love" is all too common. The media spoon feeds your generation this tripe by the mouthfull. My clinic is so full of very young women afflicted with serious STDs that were the result of "following feelings".

Pep

Chris,

What I wrote, at the time, wasn't a true "No Contact" letter. I hadn't heard of NC letters, as it was about a month before I even found this website. But the letter I did write was a clear, concise letter that told OW that my intentions were to rebuild my marriage, and never to do anything ever again that would endanger mine or hers. It couldn't, nor could I, follow MB "protocol" as I didn't even know what it was at the time.

After I found this website, read the articles, and they made sense to me, I did write another letter. (E-Mail actually. And yes, I know that sounds tacky) But anyway, in that I was more to the point, but not as "to the point" as I should have been. This is one way that I could really testify as to the idea of no "feeling" comments being put into a letter. Neither letter completely worked, as far as OW was concerned. While she may have accepted, in some part of her mind, that I wanted the A to be over, as long as I was responding to e-mails, etc., there was still hope. I didn't mean to encourage that hope, I was trying to "let her down easily" and not be the "cold hearted [censored]". It wasn't until I changed my e-mail address, and she no longer could e-mail me, that she "got it". While I have not attempted contact in over six weeks, she tried up until about a month ago, when I changed e-mail addresses. So, it wasn't until my actions reflected my statements that she backed off. And, it wasn't until she got it that SHE finally started losing her fog, and seriously gave her marriage a chance.

Don't worry, I get it about NC. I have not had any contact, whatsoever, with her since I committed to it. I will be honest, though, it is still a struggle some days. But, when I'm tempted now to contact her, even for some b.s. "reason" I've developed in my mind, I think about my wife, and how upset she would be if she knew about it. That has done the trick so far. I think it will keep working, too.

Oscar

Oscar, I have to say I admire how hard it must be and how you are so honest about it. It must be like an alcoholic. You have helped me see why WS has so much trouble. A year ago he called me devastated he had decided to say goodbye to OW, you would have thought the world had ended. I for some reason just knew to be supportive about it. I had not read SAA or any other books at that time. Of course at that time I also hadn't realized how involved it was. And of course it didn't last although just today reading this I realize it must still be continueing because he hasn't gone through the withdrawals like that again. He is still working with her and must be getting his fix.
Anyway I have a question for you. You state that when you have doubts and want to call OW you think of your wife and what it would do to her. Have you always been that way or was their a period when nothing was felt for your wife? I know this is a weird question but this is a hard thing for me to accept that we can make this work when he has such strong feelings for her and none for me.
Thanks
KM
me 39
WS 44
married 17 years
2 boys 4 and 11
OW was my best friend

Pep, i understand your vows are sacred to you. I understand they are sacred (or should be) to all that take them.

And youre right theyre not feeligns. And unfortunately they dont ensure a single solitary thing in M. Not that youll stay together, not that youll love one another unconditionally. And people are no smarter generally about their choices when taking vows than they are about most other things in their lives.

The point is, Pep, the ideal happy fairy tale doesnt cover everything.

The main point i see here is that its absolutely sinning to treat your one person one way but absolutely a-ok to treat another person that way or worse. I say neither person deserves the bullsh*t.

Not the BS, not the OW. They both deserve respect and honesty from the WS. If he cant provide it to both its HIS problem. HIS issue.

I can completely understand and relate to thinking that person who chose to abandon the vows and promises they swore to make them a bad person, or a good person with bad choices, or whatever... immoral, selfish, etc. I can understand demanding that they change their ways if they want even a shred of hope for their M. HOWEVER... i think its pretty ridiculous to expect a person to completely change their ways only directed to ONE person and not to everyone.

Oscar... i understand your side. YOu did what you had to do. YOu continued to reply back to let her down easily. i dont know the full situation, what kind of R you had with the OW, if it was caring or not, what kind of things that shed been through that made it difficult for her to let go. I can understand you doing what you had to do. The problem is, though, that MOST (not all) BSs (and the policy i see promoted here that i dont understand and may have to quietly bow out and accept taht i just never will) is that The person on the other side of the coin has pain, and is just as entitled to that pain as anyone else. WRong, immoral, inhuman, scum of the earth, whatever. They have that pain, they do what they need to do about it. Everyoen operates that way.

I will gladly agree to disagree if this is headed nowhere. Because i feel like my opinion is being completely discounted simply because i didnt hold vows with the person i cared for. Regardless if our R lasted 7 and their R lasted 3, they took vows, and it seems shes the only one that deserves respect and honesty from the man who is the one common denominator in it all.

Ive just had a turn in my day (for the worse) so maybe its best i come back to this discussion later if at all.

Rain...

Hi km4,

I'll answer this as honestly as I can. I've never been to a point where I didn't have feelings for my wife. I don't know how much you've read of my other posts, but my A was an EA for about six months, and went to a PA for only about two weeks. During the A, I told OW that I was unhappy and was thinking about leaving my W. Even then, though, I wasn't thinking of leaving her because I didn't love her; I felt like SHE DIDN'T LOVE ME. I felt like I was the lowest priority in her life, and was being taken for granted. It is, from what I have seen, a more common feeling among women than men. My wife was the over-achieving workaholic, and I was the underappreciated spouse.

So, to answer your question honestly, no, there was never a point when I had no feelings whatsoever for my W. In fact, even at the height of my A, I was torn. I felt like I loved both women equally, but in different ways, for different reasons.

And, the OW wasn't my wife's best friend, but she was an acquaintence. She was one of MY best friends prior to the A. That is what is most painful about this, after the hurt I have caused my wife; that I wasn't the kind of friend to OW that I should have been. Had I truly been her friend, I would never have let the friendship escalate to an A.

I know that's probably not what you wanted to hear, but it's the truth. I wish you luck. Just because your H hasn't shown the same feelings as me, doesn't mean he hasn't had them. Most men aren't as willing to share as I am. Sometimes I think that's something in their favor.

Oscar

Oscar...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I really do feel for you. Im really glad youre honest. I really really am. I fully understand everythign youre saying. I think it tears everyone apart inside for different reasons, regardless of the should haves could haves and would haves.

I think in the end youve done the right thing for you.

Rain...