km4,

Been there ... every other week I am a Mr. Mom & Mrs. Dad <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , single dad. I know how crazy soccer mom is ... in my case skater dad.

Ask him next time, if you were the WS and come back home ... and talking about OM and "brutally" honest to him ... how would he react ?.

He is still in and out of fog ... no one could help him out but himself.

-rh-

Sorry the following post, I posted elsewhere because in "my fog" I couldn't find my original post, but thought I'd keep me together.
Afterward I read other peoples posts and know they are going through the same thing I am, but why am I so tired and worn out and I guess weak.

I'm ready to give up and I am so angry that I can't even make a decision on giving up. I can see looking back the good days are getting farther apart and the bad days are taking over. Went to IC today to the same C WS goes to. And he could tell I'm at my limit. I'm not sleeping so tired all the time. He helped talk me through what I am feeling.
Basically I realize that WS keeps saying I want to be a better father, a better husband a better person but then I realized what I was missing in that statement, "I want" is not a verb it has no action attached. IC said is he doing anything to show you he wants this? NO.
IC said the most important thing is that WS is spending time with me and boys. He's not, missed oldest birthday dinner then birthday slumber party after he promised because of work. To me he says I have to find me first then be a better father and you'll come after that. He's gone all week as a pilot has a other job on the side that he works with OW at, when he gets off early on an evening he gets a massage, because he needs to relax. Yet he pleadingly tells me he wants to be with us.
I can't be the supportive plan A wife anymore, its been 16 months since d day. I know I haven't been doing plan A as long as that but I have always been supportive and trying.
I told IC that WS keeps promising that after some litagation is over he'll quit job that OW works at and so I feel guilty giving up now. IC asked if I believed him. No, he's been promising me 11 of the last 17 years that he'll down size his life for me. This is just another lie.
Everytime I head the direction of seperation, WS panics doesn't want to seperate what good would that do he says. Then why is he not willing to give it his all.
IC says that even the best intentions are no good if you don't follow through. That it is hard to change and many people want to but can't. He says I have to know my limits and deal with them.
I just want a life with someone who hold my hand and will watch our son's soccer game together, someone I can count on being there for me when times are tough.
What am I doing to my children if I leave, what am I doing to them if I stay.
WS called to see how my appt went, I said I'd discuss it later and that IC wanted to see me next week, I usually go every other. WS knows thats not good.
WS feels things are good because after reading the SAA he relates and feels he's coming out of the fog, another way to make me feel guilty for doubting him?? He still does not have regrets just remorse for what he did to OW H, his best friend, and to our children and maybe a little to me. Then once again why doesn't he show actions.
I want to tell WS that he needs to go find himself but I no longer can be a part of it I can't clean for him, and care about him and take care of his children. I know WS will try to promise and give me reasons not too.
Would someone just shoot me and put me out of my misery.
km4
me 39
WS 44
married 17 years
2 boys 11 and 4
ow was my best friend

km4,

Why WH do this ? ... b/c he can !. Read again LB lists and reread it again. Express your feeling w/o LB ... then you decide !.

Why don't you let WH takes care the kids for 3 days ... while you go retreat. Just let him know you need serenity to think and retreat. Don't feel guilty about taking it either.

Take the time to think & recharged, think & decide if plan B is the course that you have to take.

-rh-

Thankyou rh great minds think alike. WS is taking oldest son to hobby show convention this weekend, I made plans for younger and plan on heading to our mountain retreat for three days of R rated movies, thai food and sleeping in late. Tonight I decided I'm skipping school tomorrow to get an early start on my weekend. I'm just afraid I'll talk myself out of it or maybe that I'll talk myself into it I'm not sure which.

km4
me 39
WS 44
married 17 years
2 boys 11 and 4
ow was my best friend.

km4,

Aside for taking an emotional & physical rest, take this time to seek what you want ... Borrow Dr. Phil's life startegy book to read.

I also suggest you to write PBL draft plus think about all "the what if" for plan B logistic.

Have fun ... I will be at promised keeper "the challenge" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> -rh-

Promised Keeper "the Challenge"????? have fun, even though I don't know what it is. lol

km4
me 39
WS 44
married 17 years
2 boys 11 and 4
ow was my best friend

Here it is <img border="0&..."images/icons/grin.gif" /> -rh-

rh, Actually I have heard of it, just didn't connect it. Hope you had a good time.
km4
me 39
ws 44
married 17 years
2 boys 11 and 4
ow was my bes friend.

Next installment to my saga. Spent the weekend thinking and realized I'm beginning to be more pessimestic then optimistic, o.k. understatement. Tried to get down to the bones with WS and see what he is really thinking. Was real honest. He said he doesn't want a divorce. I said o.k. so tell me why you don't want one, he thought and said not in this order but...
1. The kids, although he thinks they will be fine if we do.
2. Financial, he'd lose 1/2.
3. Even though I can't remember it, you say we were once good and if at all possible I want that back.
I actually think he's most afraid that he'll lose financially.
So were back to that no feelings, I hear people speak here that their WS hate them and that is good, because the opposite of love is not hate but indifference, mine is indifferent. He is starting to "come out of the fog" but still can't remember the good things.
I now realize plan B won't serve a purpose, but what do I do??????
Will he ever remember the good times of past??

km4
me 39
WS 44
married 17 years
2 boys 11 and 4
ow was my best friend

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by km4:
<strong>He is starting to "come out of the fog" but still can't remember the good things.
I now realize plan B won't serve a purpose, but what do I do??????
Will he ever remember the good times of past??</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would pick up the phone and get conseling w/ MB ... you need more help than any of us could offer. You need a pro to review you situation and coach you.

This is the premise of MB ... if you fillin ENs, avoid LBs, spend time and radical honest, romatic love would come back. All your H needs to do is let you do it. I would do quick review of that list and see where you miss the mark. Many FWS put up the wall b/c they still have contact or A still going on !.

-rh-

km4: I'm so sorry to hear what you are going through and you've been doing it for 16 months. You are an angel! I'm jealous you had the weekend to yourself.

My WS is the same way -- I believe the only reason he has not left, yet, is financial. I don't think he's really afraid of what would happen in a divorce, but we really can't afford for him to get an apartment right now. He also is asking me to remind him of what we were like in the beginning -- ugh!

I believe Plan B could still work for you. At the very least, you'll feel better if you weren't talking to WS everyday and riding the rollercoaster. Take care. (((hugs)))

... you need more help than any of us could offer.

O'no a lost cause on MB. lol Either that or its me and I don't know how to stop this merry go round.

One more question please, so is the reason WS cannot remember good times because of continued contact with OW? o.k. two questions, and is his behavior of still no feelings unusual or do most WS, still have feelings for both S and OP.

thanks
km4

Thanks IBC, you don't know how comforting it is to know I'm not the only one with a WS who can't remember the good times.
I am def no angel just someone wanting to learn, with alot still to know.
The only thing I worry about Plan B is that if WS still has no feelings for me then maybe I didn't plan A well enough, and the fact that he still wants to work on the marriage. But I do have to agree that plan B would be somewhat of a peace for me. But at this point both WS and I are at rock bottom, and this is were most from what I understand get out. Plan B would lead to D for us I believe. But do I swallow my doubts that this might be hopeless or is it just my survival instincts telling me to bail when what I should be doing is diving head first in.
This morning I asked WS to commit to 3 months of intense "make this work", he said that three months is def not enough time, its going to take much longer then that.
So am I pessimist or an optimist when I look for meaning in this.
km4

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by km4:
<strong>One more question please, so is the reason WS cannot remember good times because of continued contact with OW? o.k. two questions, and is his behavior of still no feelings unusual or do most WS, still have feelings for both S and OP.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We are just wannabe here you might need pro like Steve or Jennifer.

Here is my 2¢. Many reasons why WS can't remember good time ... the obvious one is there wasn't any, WS never felt that way in M, you did. The other is he is just defogged, in which it is not the case. Other possiblities include continue contact with OW or even A is not dead yet.

You could help him to remember the good time by revisiting the kodak moment, photos, word that WS said or even go and visit the place. One technique in rebuilding R is divide your M life by 6 months. Write down the most memorable event and the most hurtfull event on each and rate them. 1-5, 5 is being good. Do it separately then compare & discuss the result. Anyway, both of you might need MC as a guide. Call his bluff, put down plan of recovery ... time frame & action plan. Did he fillin ENq/LBq and even probably Recreation/Personal q too ?.

Second question is a loaded as the first one. In withdrawal ... they are in pain of losses !. Like a kid has to separate from their lolipop. Now BS has to be skillfull to fillin the void that OP left out. Failing to do so it would make WS wonder ... why I leave OP ?. If it is for kids or financial reason it is not good enough, probably good in the beginning but not sustainable in the long run. Worst scenario is continue contact or A.

how was your weekend get away ?.

-rh-

Rh, You def have hit on some good points. I see where still having contact with OW is probably to blame for many of these issues. Although he says it is purely professional. And WS now says he has more feelings for me then for her but I find this hard to believe when he is so proud of the fact still that she has "been in love with him for 20 years" and when discussing it recently he got upset when I mentioned that in order to justify what they are doing many people, OW, rewrite their marital history and make it bad. Remember OW H was my WS best friend. OW told WS how much abuse she got from H and WS believed it in order to justify for himself what he was doing.
I have tried the picture gallery idea and WS does not even recognize me in any picture and cannot remember a single event they represent unless OW was there. ie vacation etc. I think another way for him to rewrite our history.
I agree we need a plan and I go to my IC today and WS appt is also today with same C. I'm just a little confused on the plan. He is working on EN and I am working on time limit and wants.
1. OW
With contact with OW at work he will tell
me, no matter how small.
And that by the first of Jan either he or
she will be gone. (she is there for the
money he says but has another part time
job she can do full time, he is there due
to litigation which is suppose to be
settled by Jan 1.(I can and will follow t
through with this date.)
2. MC together not just seperate.
3. Complete honesty
4. To set aside X number of hours each week
to be together.

My weekend was good, but I missed my kids so darn much. Thats the only thing that kept me from coming back and saying o.k. its over because the more I thought and planned the more sure I was. But for a purely selfish reason, I don't want to lose my children 50% of the time, I need to keep trying. But just awhile longer. And I also realized one of my greatest fears is that we will make it work but that WS will also be "in love" with OW and spend the rest of his life asking "what if".
You didn't say how your weekend was????
km4
me 39
WS 44
married 17 years
2 boys 11 and 4
ow was my best friend

km4,

Yes, contact is very damaging to your M. For now focus on fillin his need and avoid LB and wait for your time line to come (don't tell him your time line). There is no room for a thrid person in R.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You didn't say how your weekend was????</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was very good. I reconsiled w/ HIM but I still grasping what HE wants of me. The promise keeper is good to keep focus to become the light and the salt of this world & bringing lost souls to HIM. I know HE has plan for me when the time come, I just have to get ready and get ready fast ! lol. There is so much hurt and pain and too little helpers around. Promise Keeper will be back in SJ next year 10/08/2004 and I am planning to be a volunteer <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

-rh-

Rh, counselor said the same, no time limit. He also helped me put things in perspective. OW has not been in love with WS for 20 years maybe lust here and there but true love comes from years of bad and good, not just minutes of fantasy.

He liked my analogy that I've learned here of rewriting marital history. Called it some fancy smancy thing, he's also a college professor and teaches so loves a good example. But also said that could be why WS doesn't remember our good times that he has blocked it out to justify things. I felt great!!

WS had his appt same day and came home laid his head on my shoulder and cried. IC says I'm depressed. LOL Ya I knew that! he didn't. I've seen a change in him in just a few short days. While flying to Santa Barbara yesterday he said "remember when we use to do this all the time". Now he is seeking out friends who believe in making it work. Even had two lunches with men who have D and now tell him look at how lucky you are now, and if you D and marry OW in two years you'll be right back where you are now so fix what you have. He's even let slip a couple neg things about OW. And joked in front of others about how flirting can get you into situations that can lead to alot of trouble.

Don't worry though I know how this faucet runs hot and cold, a couple steps forward, a step back. But I felt I got to the point of letting go and then like lightening it turned. But don't be surprised if tomorrow I'm crying on your shoulder once again.

And I'm glad your weekend went so well and I do not say I dare interpret the will of God, but don't you think in a way you are fulfilling a part of his plan for you by helping those such as us in need. That by being there for the people here, the people you work, socialize and interact with and your daughter of course that you are fulfilling a plan that God has for you and as you say "bringing lost souls to him". I know something my WS has expressed to me this weekend is that he feels a gread need for religion in his life. interesting????? But even more subtle things are part of the plan..... everything you do changes people and you are def doing God's work.

KM4
me39
WW44
married 17 years
2 boys 11 and 4
ow was my best friend.

rereading my old posts I look back and wonder why I didn't hit myself with a 2 x 4.lol. I knew what I needed to do but just skirted around the same old issues.
Finally I put my foot down on things such as contact with OW and lb'd to death but it was worth it to finally get it out. Then put it in WS hands. It took him less then 24 hours, I guess he was ready, to take action. Right now she is working on the days he is not there with the intent that they will find her another job in the company somewhere, she will move to her other job full time, as they cannot fire her without reason. He though is still unwilling to give up "general aviation" as he puts it, although I say its giving up her. This in some respects still makes me feel like second choice to his job. He says its hard cutting that last string not because of the A but because of a 20 year friendship that is hard to give up he feels the same way about the friendship with OW H who was his best friend. He says he wishes all four of us could get together and just say lets me friends again. OMG still fog I am assuming lol.

Now though I have finished with some issues but move on to still others. WS still thinks OW will someday make a great wife for someone else because of the wife she was to her ex H. He doesn't realize that just like it is 50% my fault and 50% his fault, its also 50% her fault. Will he ever see her true colors? Sometimes I wish that he would have left to be with her and get a taste of reality.

Through conversations with a FWH friend of his. THis friend tried to explain the different kinds of love to WS. What FWH felt for OW was sexual and fun. What he feels now for wife is nurturing type of love. I'm not sure I'm willing to settle for nurturing love although as WS pointed out that is what most couples have?

FWS also told WS that trust was going to take the longest and be the hardest to get back. WS had no idea that trust was lost in this. Unbelievable to me. He thought that since I have always trusted him that I would just contintue to trust him.
km4
me 39
ws 44
married 17 years
2 boys 11 and 4
ow was my best friend.

km4,

Do you know why WS continue doing it ? b/c BS let them !. I am glad you realize it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

Now it is the harder part:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure I'm willing to settle for nurturing love although as WS pointed out that is what most couples have?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know what you want and you know it is possible ... don't settle for anything less. Harley is famous for steps for rekindle romantic love so that we could have fullfilin M.

Print out ENq, LBq, all the Q. Work on it one by one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

-rh-

WS has done the EN and LBING questions and we are to exchange them tonight but WS says I need to get over this resentment I feel before anything positive can happen.

How do I do that????? I know its lbing when I argue with him about the fact that he thinks she's wonderful and I know her well enough to know she def is not. Remember best friend for 20 years. I hate feeling like second choice and that all his feelings are still for her.

I still get in plenty of EN but then blow it with a question about her that gets us started.
i.e. Last night asked him if he had seen her, He said "I told you I would tell you when I see her" but he has said that for the last 1 1/2 years and never did, so I don't know to trust or not. The second issue I have with him is that I know we need time together to regain those feelings he's lost, he says he's trying but so many other priorities, For the last 17 years he has said "as soon as I get this accomplished I will have more time to spend with you" and then something else comes up. He says it will not change overnight it takes time to change a habit.
So should I not discuss OW with WS and hold in my resentment and anger?????

km4