I am glad you vents in here. Resentment came from piles of un-met expectations. It is normal in restoring M, you have to plug along and know that if both of you abide 4 rules of recovery, both of you would fall in-love again. I have a few suggestions for you and I would pick a pieces of your own words.

Learn how to see the truth and talk back to the fog !. Don't react to it.

He told you "I need to get over this resentment I feel before anything positive can happen." ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Foggese)
The truth is you need to reduce the resentment since it is not healty in R but it is not a prerequisite to positive things to happen. 4 positives needed to offset 1 negative ... do the math and it is hard.
Your rection "How do I do that?????"

What you should says ... I agree with you I need to get over this resentment but I need your help <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> !. I feel ... I need you xyz to help me out, could you do that for me ?. What you should do ... don't ever argue and react about what he says about OW. He is in the fog of withdrawal. You are arguing with his fantasy !, you are in a loose-loose situation. Even if you win this argument you are the bad one that pops his fantasy. Don't take it personaly, it is not about you it is about his preception of OW !. You can't help changing that he will see it later own his own.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hate feeling like second choice and that all his feelings are still for her.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He is with you means that you are the better choice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . He is in withdrawal, you are listening to his fog.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So should I not discuss OW with WS and hold in my resentment and anger?????</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not saying that. You could endanger become WS yourself or don't want your M anymore when those bottled up feeling explode. Understand what make you resent him and what make you angry ... those are part of LBq. Don't argue but be honest about your feeling. In RH you have to be honest with your current feeling to him !, not to "fry" him but be radically honest and you tell him how he could help you out.

Do you just exchange or sit down and talk ?. Remember people "reacts" to the words choice you use and how you present them.

good luck -rh-

Rh, Again thankyou and yes once again you make sense. I printed out your reply and am going to study it so I can follow it.

Right now I think we are on hold for R work. WS is in major depression. Has given up OW although he saw her the first time in three weeks yesterday but called me up immediately and said he just ran into her unexpectedly and gave me a blow by blow of what happened. He said he immediately left and when he got back she had gone. Ow is supposed to only work on days he's not there but this week he is there every day. Not sure this is going to work and in long term its not enough, but he's trying.

But thats not the reason for depression, actually I think withdrawal is partly responsible but also his brother 51 has recently been diagnosed with cancer and is painfully dying he has no insurance and no other family. Ws has taken the burden of it. WS has always been thecaretaker of the family and took care of his parents who both died at 48, both alcoholics all his life, his mother died from liver problems and his father lung cancer and also his grandfather as he died from cancer. WS was only 20 at the time and has never processed these painful experiences. Its so painful to see him so depressed and still trying to function and juggle the 10 balls he already has in the air. I too have been through a severe depression when I was told a child I was carrying would be born severely retarded so I feel his pain and know exactly what he feels when he says that although the C says it will end eventually he doesn't quite believe it, how all he wants to do is sleep and how he cries at the drop of a hat. C said today meds would be helpful but not sure what ones WS can take with his job, so WS refuses to take any. The only positive I see lol is that I now have opportunity for meeting EN and showing him I care.

And again thankyou for caring, I always know my questions will be answered with thought and care.

km4
me 39
wh 44
married 17 years
2 boys 11 and 4
ow was my best friend.

Venting and not even sure what about. WS is doing everything he feels is necessary, wants to be everything that I also want him to be. Says all the right things like his feelings for me are stronger then for the OW. He knows he has to regain my trust and it will take along time. And that it takes time to rediscovery each other. In fact he's the one who's saying "be patient".

Our C says we are alot alike in that we both go with the flow and don't rock the boat. He says I need to get to the heart of things with WS and not just surface stuff. When WS says he's tired, I need to dig deeper. Tonight when I tried WS said he likes all the new things about me.... but the way I try to get deeper, when he's tired he wants to rest not talk.(WS is on a 5 day trip)
I once again lb'd my usual subject OW, WS says he has more feelings for me, but still has feelings for OW, he's only seen OW once in 6wks and says he is an exception, he doesn't start at square one when he sees her at work.

WS wonders what brought this on, my grief and pain. Thinking about it perhaps two things. 1. a girlfriend my age who got married the same week I did 17 years ago, then went through what I am going through, got married again this weekend to someone who thinks she is the cats meow. and 2. This same girlfriend reminded me that I am the same person, good, kind, loving, that I was back then as I am today. So how come thats not good enough now and don't I deserve someone that thinks I'm the cats meow.

I know I'm suppose to be supportive and lavish on the EN to WS. I know I'm not suppose to bring up OW or anything negative about her. Then why can't I stop. I want to know about OW, thinkg like what they did together, two years ago I broke my elbow while on a skiing vacation with OW and her H, I wonder if they were together then. But will that bring up good memories for him and further push me away.
I know there is no clear cut answer and WS isn't going to declare undying love for me or any love for me anytime soon. Am I just asking for too much too soon. Am I wrong in not believing him that he's an exception? Is this still fog?????? Why don't I even know what I'm really asking of him?????????

km4
me 39
ws 44
married 17 years
2 boys 11 and 4
ow was my best friend

km4,

If you keep LB'ng you might have to go to plan B, but not yet. Vent in here and hang in there ...

Cat Meow .. LOL ! You have to see if after the honeymoon is over. Give her 3 months and ask her again. Don't beleive what she is saying but relay on what you see and reading between the lines.

He is not exception, WS does WS's scripts. He has to decide ... you might have to rock it with plan B but not yet and not now. He is not in the fog but he has to make decision. Give C time to help your M out.

Have you read the language of love by Gary Smally ? read it and learn how to open his heart.

-rh-

Took a few days to mope and be sad. Still the resentment stuff that I now realize I use to bury and have learned to express through feelings to WS but lately don't even want to use the energy to do what I know is correct. I have stopped lbing about ow, just so many reminders, yesterday alone my 4 yr old brought her up, my bro in law related a story about her that happened at our cabin last year, and I used a saying that I got from her before I even thought about it. Luckily I have been reading the Torn Asunder and it helps me realize I have been "maybe" obsessing about her lol. I do know until she is gone from his work place we cannot heal fully but that is his decision and I have no control over it.

I have not gotten that book but will send off for it today. Gosh I'm sure Amazon is glad I'm in this mess lol.

And your probably right about the cats meow relationship although they have been going to counseling weekly so they won't end up in the same predictament. In fact OW ex recently got engaged and they too have been going to C to iron out these things before M. But that hurts too OW's EX!!!! is getting remarried, I'm still struggling unsure of the outcome while he is moving on. And the irony is that OW use to tell her ex that no one would want him, the other irony is she left her H because he didn't offer the security she wanted and H just won the lottery big. lollllllllll!!!!!! I guess I could consider that her just deserves. Although is it vindictive of me to want MORE pain and suffering in her future.

km4

I have finally realized I need to let go of OW and lbing I do about her to WS. I still have not gotten to the point were I can forgive but I realize she is living her life without remorse while Im causing myself pain thinking about her. Now when ws tells me that he realizes every person has their good and bad points and that ow has many good point I don't have but I have many good points she does not, I look at it as a compliment and not as a reason to argue about her and I.

WS told me recently that he couldn't believe how wrapped up he had gotten and what he had almost given up. I also take this as a good sign but see the long road we still have to travel. In Torn Asunder they suggest looking from were you came and not to the future because looking backward you can see the progress while looking forward you can only see the long stretch you have to go. I try to do this, look backward.

Ws still has feeling for ow and has not opened up to me as I would like. But recently when he started to argue with me about the amount of time he has given to the boys and I, I corrected him and showed him the last month which I have kept track of.... he has only been home and awake 23 hours in thee weeks. He was stunned and instead of getting mad he fell apart, but he acknowledged it and thanked me for bringing it to his attention. He is willing to see how his childhood has screwed with his mind and has taken full credit for everything that has gone wrong with us. I know I take responsibility for 1/2 with my passiveness up to this point.

But he still does not look at me with love in his eyes nor does he say the words, I am once again trying to be patient in a state of mind that just wants progress.

km4

km4,

I am glad that you realize what you have done to yourself drinking rat poison (anger/resenment toward OW) while the rat (OW) has no clue she is supposed to die <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> . You have come along way lady.

You know what you need to do ... re-read basic concept again. It is hard but if you fillin top5 of his ENs and he lets you plus you are not lb'ng no more ... you will rekindle love in his eyes and he has no clue what hit him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . Yes, ENs, no LB, honesty (w/ LB), and time are the keys.

He is a good H but he could be a great H <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

Hang in there & happy turkey day.

-rh-

A compliment from you Redhat, I am indeed flattered.

And as usual I take your advice very seriously and will jump in again to the basic concepts.

Thankyou......

km4

p.s. happy Turkey day to you too. Will you have your daughters???

km4

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by km4:
<strong> p.s. happy Turkey day to you too. Will you have your daughters???

km4 </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks,
I have my 2D this week (my weeks) & for thanksgiving <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . My ex had them last year.

I see my 2D soo happy for a longest time (something change) and I don't know what. I guess they are happy to see me doing well too. They probably see changes in me too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-rh-

RH, I think I actually see a smile on your face;) Your daughters are happy and you are happy, life must feel good and I'm glad, you deserve it.

Why don't you ask them why they are so happy? I am finding this new found education on communication works in more areas than marriage and hope to teach it to my sons through example although I am still a beginner and usually fail miserably, but am working on it.

Keep it up RH, the smiling:) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

km4

o.k. I know their are good days and bad days. But I do dream of the days such as I read on another thread recently were she feels "normal" and in "balance", what wonderful words and feelings those must be.
Last night out to dinner with my husband after his C appt, he said how he is beginning to enjoy coming "home" and how he can't imagine giving it up. Of course he elaborated by saying "For the first time in my life I am beginning to enjoy the feeling of having a home, coming back to it and the boys, and I know this will hurt you, but I don't look forward to seeing you yet" At least he warned me and I quickly put up the pain blocks. I know it lies on my shoulders right now to fill his EN even if he is not willing to do mine, but what if I question his ability to ever fill mine.
This week alone he has spent one hour with me inbetween C appt and his massage for a bad back. Tonight I feel like I'm lbing when I ask for more. I know this will be a hard habit for him to break but again I question his ability at all to do it.
This morning he asked our son to write him a list of what he needs to do to be a better father. Will he ever ask me to write such a list.
How can I fill EN such as admiration, by the way we have not exchanged EN yet although we have filled them out two months ago because WS cannot find the time, when I do not feel admiration and even when I do ws does not believe it. I know keep doing it and it will eventually sink in. That is what WS says he is doing to me, going through the motions in hope that it will eventually sink in. And he thinks I have low self esteem although my C not, just passive lol, but really who wouldn't have low self esteem hearing stuff like that. Do I take focus off us and work on me??
km4

km4,

Yes, there are good days and there are bad days but if you have hope for the future you would have strength to pass the bad days looking forward.

You have not only learn how fillin his ENs but train him to fillin yours !. Meaning if he did a nice thing (Love unit$ ... ka ching...ka ching) you have to reward him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> with fillin his top ENs right away <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . We men are very simple ... sometime I wonder why our best companion is a dog instead of our SO ... LOL!.

-rh-

<small>[ December 06, 2003, 01:41 AM: Message edited by: redhat ]</small>

Thanks for the pep talk its just what I needed.

Km4

Of course couldn't keep it to one line. No whining tonight but questions.

What is constructive to know about A's and what isn't. WS is willing to give any details but I don't know what will help in my healing or just cause me more distress. For example, I have been thinking that this A had gone on for a long time. Recently I remembered when I broke my elbow Jan 1, two years ago. I was helping OW pack up her car from a ski trip which we all spent together. I asked WS if he and she were involved then. NO! not at all he said just our good friends. But then 5 months later he gave me the "I'm not happy speech" So somewhere in that five months he fell for someone else and wiped out 17 years of marriage? I'm not sure this makes me feel better or worse?

So do I want more details to help learn what I was not giving him, and how to know when he decieved me? Is my imagination more damaging then the truth? I always thought I wanted to know everything and I def don't want to bury my head in the sand but whats important to growth and what stunts it?

And another question, I know that accountibilty is o.k. to ask for regarding ow. WS still see's her (twice in 2 months)at work the first time he told me he saw her in the hall, the second time I asked if he had seen her and he said he spoke with her 3 weeks before when she gave him a phone message. He didn't lie but he didn't tell me when he should, he didn't feel like it was important. He knows I feel like the timer starts at the beginning every time he sees her, but he does not according to our IC who has been "training" him on how to get rid of feelings for her and gain for me. I know he didn't tell me of last convo because he knew I would be hurt and start the timer, he wants to keep moving forward. So do I not question and building bank, or do i ask for accountibilty of his actions.
How come its easier to see what other's actions should be but harder to see ones own.

p.s. your Ka ching, Ka ching plan works great. And I literally think Ka Ching Ka Ching, when ws does something for me and I compliment. He even surprised me recently by trip trading so that he would be home to make our four year olds xmas program. Something he has never done. Ka ching Ka ching.

km4

km4,

Harley beleives in complete honesty. Remember dishonesty is LB ... people lies to "protect one feeling" and I call it disrepectful judgement to SO. People lie to "avoid trouble" and I call it cheating SO. People lie just for the sake of it and I call it a deal breaker.

In order to build trust, a complete trust, there should be complete honesty. Not to hurt but to build R. Otherwise there will always be a wall between both of you. Probably you can't hear it now but you need to hear the truth sometime when your R getting stronger with H.

Good job on ENs. Men are not hopeless we are just clueless ... LOL!.

-rh-

RH Awhile back you recommended Gary Smalley Language of Love, I find many other books by him but not this one. Do I have the title wrong? also have you read "Value of a man" by him also. Thinking of getting it for ws for xmas?
thankyou
Km4

Sorry, I found it, not on Amazon but on Smalley's own web site, still interested though if you have read the other?
km4

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by km4:
<strong> Sorry, I found it, not on Amazon but on Smalley's own web site, still interested though if you have read the other?
km4 </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No not yet but I glance through "Only If He knew" ... it is a good book for WS. However it could be an LB if WS take it wrong.

-rh-

I just read a post on another thread and it is so much where I am also. I see changes in WS not nearly enough but some. I'm frustrated though and am tired of working so hard. I really have no desire to put in any more positive strokes towards WS. IC says to be patient that he sees great strides in WS and that small steps are more long lasting then quick ones and that WS needs to learn things he never did in childhood. But still I'm frustrated. That he can still see OW as amazing and wonderful and when I ask him to remember what originally drew him to me 20 years ago he can't remember. In fact he asks me to remind him what my good qualities are. That he just doesn't see them but he is trying. He finds the new me somewhat improved but hates things like I voice my opinion and don't let him get away with sweeping things under the table. He says he wants to be a family with me and the boys but he is not content with his life. I know contentment is something he must find himself and realize alot of these issues are his alone. I know that I need to shower him with Plan A but I don't want to. I told him that I'm very angry with him and that I realize that is part of the problem that I need to move past that anger but am not sure how. To me if he could see some negatives with OW and some positives with me it would help. I also am at the point I need answers about OW's and he is fine with giving them but has trouble finding the time. What questions do i ask though? what do i need to know? I hope this is part of the process.

Km4