</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by km4:
<strong>I know that I need to shower him with Plan A but I don't want to. I told him that I'm very angry with him and that I realize that is part of the problem that I need to move past that anger but am not sure how. To me if he could see some negatives with OW and some positives with me it would help. I also am at the point I need answers about OW's and he is fine with giving them but has trouble finding the time. What questions do i ask though? what do i need to know? I hope this is part of the process.
Km4 </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One thing that you have to realize that A is mostly not b/c of OW but 1. unmet need 2. failing to guard ENs 3. Time spent w/ OW. It is all about him !.

Your resentment toward OW and probably soon toward H is normal, specially if FWH could not help you out. My suggestion is pour your anger/resenment to IC and let IC helps both of you or coach FWH. Don't hide your feeling, voice out to IC ... not to FWH

-rh-

o.k. I see your first point, the A is about him but I was a contributory factor for not giving him what he needed.

But your confusing me on second point. Maybe I'm backsliding in regarding the resentment factor. But I no longer am angry at OW like I was but am angry at WS although differently. You say to voice my anger but not at WS but to IC. Why? because I should only be fulfilling EN with WS and that would be LBing? How can my voicing to IC help WS???? I feel like I've filled EN but WS keeps changing them on me only because it allows him to say thats not what he wanted. I feel like no matter what I do WS will find fault. Thats why I now find it hard to give because I'm working hard and nothing is ever good enough.
km4

km4,

Both of you pay big $$$ to help out the M ... if you keep resenment inside and not air it out to IC ... he/she wouldn't know and can't help.

Don't jump through hoop on what H said, you have to look at his actions. I hope you know him well, you are M to him for that long. Don't ask him no more. Think what were his complaint about your before d-day ?. Did he repeat it again after d-day ?. Those are the plan A actions. I would not add and add more to the plate ... you would end up as a servant and doormat to H.

I sugest you to 1. Don't talk about R no more or ask him about EN. 2. Get a solid plan A and give it time frame to revisit it again, you might have to go to plan B.

If you could afford it, best to get advice from Harley or Penny.

-rh-

Hi km4

(Quotes by km4 in italics)

From what I read WS is actually FWH. So the A is over and now you are tyring to move toward recovery. However you have become frustrated with WS as he glories in how wonderful OW is but doesn't seem to place any value in you.

From this point forward your intent is to help WS understand you want to meet his needs. Your previous post says that you've been trying to do this. You've lost some weight, you're keeping the house clean, and some other things. Pat yourself ont he back for your successes.

You seem to be hard at work on this and making progress. How come the frustration at at this point?

To be honest, everyone feels it as they go through the process of saving M. Afterall, it is a process and it doesn't happen over night.

In this process you want to try to build an environment that is conducive to recovery. This means acknowldeging and giving small appreciation to WS for the changes he is making as you both approach WS stop of all contact and going into withdrawal

"I see changes in WS not nearly enough but some."

Ok. Accept that they may not be as big or progressive as you would like. But the changes are a start. This may do 2 things for you both.
1. Show him that you recognize the changes which I agree with RH men need to know this and 2. Give you an appreciation for the strides that he is making in M.

"That he can still see OW as amazing and wonderful and when I ask him to remember what originally drew him to me 20 years ago he can't remember. "

and

"To me if he could see some negatives with OW and some positives with me it would help."

It is difficult to hear WS tell BS about how OW is this and that or what have you. Try not take it personal. It will help you to see your purpose in this. You aren't listening to WS tell you this stuff so that your heart can be poked out and step on again and agian. But you are trying to make an open the lines of communication.

One of the ways to do this is hearing him out. Allowing him to be honest. This actually does you (and your M) the favor of operating in the Policy of Radical Honesty.

If he knows he can be honest when you tell him he can he may decide to share more. If he knows that you will caringly and attentively hear him out then you show him that you are interested in how he feels.

It is hard to do this. But understand WS and addictiveness of A. It may help you not feel down about WS and OW. Remember in the fog of love drunkeness, WS puts OW on a pedestal. WS forgets about what BS has to offer. So he may be somewhat confused and self deluted about OW.

The positive side is that as you work with WS and he begins to see the light perhaps he will remember the past. More importantly he will see what a future with you can be like as you patiently try to fill ENs.

There is no guarantee that things will work out in your favor. I think that is the hard part of all of this. But even, if it doesn't once you've done all you can, you still come out on top. You learn and change as a result. You go on journey and you survive.

But don't beat yourself up about what how he feels. Don't beat him up either <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . It doesn't make you a horrible, useless person because he says what he says. However it may give you insight on his needs.

So stay your course. Post to site and talk to IC about angry feelings. You will feel resentment. Accept this for what it is but do not allow it to change what you are trying to do.

The questions. I feel that the BS should ask as many questions as they would like. However many times I've found that too many caused my WS to become annoyed. I also learned that I wasn't ready to hear everything he told me.

So I tried to take it in stride and ask as I could. Also I tried to focus on asking quesitons that might help me understand where his head was when he did what he did and what some of his ENs might have been.

I wish you the best <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Gosh, thank you both for your replys.
RH, Obviously I don't know my WS after 17 years of marriage, if I did we wouldn't be here Lol. I am finding there is a totally different person hidden behind a wall that even he realizes he built. Built in defense of childhood issues. I just let him know I'm here willing to listen but I also push some in that he would like to stay hidden behind that wall. The good thing is he says he has never let anyone behind it not even OW. I agree about not adding more to the plate. I try to fufill those EN I know of. But WS says I don't do it right, so I ask for clarification and just get that OW did it naturally while he thinks I may not have it in me. And the hard part is that I know OW and what he sees in her and says I cannot fulfill is not correct. For her it was a facade that she created for him.

So Freetobe you are correct in my frustration. And I thank you for you right on reply. You put words to my feelings that I was not able to express. You gave me great comforts 1. "everyone feels it as they go through the process of saving M." and " Try not to take it personally".
I guess I had lost why I was going through these steps, I was looking at the end result when its the process that is the path. As you stated its about opening up the lines of communication. As stated above this is something that is hard for WS and so maybe this is why I've hit a brick wall per say, he keeps throwing bricks at me because he doesn't want to let down his guard. I will be patient in this area.
And another thankyou, I have been beating myself up about how he feels. I've been running around like a chicken w/o a head trying to fulfill all his EN yet nothing is ever good enough losing my new found confidence in the process. I don't think he knows what he wants and finds fault with me because of it.
And I did need a direct answer about the questions to ask and realize through your answer it is personal and I like how you said to ask questions that pertain to what needs were being met, this is easier for me to do.
You said "So stay your course", thankyou its good to know I'm on the right course. "you will feel resentment. Accept this for what it is but do not allow it to change what you are trying to do" yes yes yes! I have been allowing it to effect my goal, because I have felt this resentment and shut off the things I had been doing because of my anger and feelings. I guess I had begun to let this be more about him and his problems and less about us.
again thankyou both for you responses.
km4

Every day I learn something new. Its amazing how stagnant I must have been. I finally bit the bullet and learned how to broach subjects to WS that have been hard before such as about OW's. Previously he would get defensive and blame me now I know by staying calm and getting my point across he will open up as best as he can.
After being on this site for so long I am not shocked or angry at the answers I get for they are the same as many here. In regards to ow from 10 years ago that was a physical A only, I just found out that my whole family and friends knew and that they confronted him but not me. Why do we not tell the BS don't we have the right to know. If I had known would so many things have been diffent and our path changed. When I ask ws why if as he says it meant nothing and he knows he loved me, then why did he do it for almost a year. He says he doesn't know but he was getting unconditional stuff from her when I was wrapped up in a newborn baby. He says he realizes it was things lacking within him not me.
When i ask about ow now, the emotional A only he says he is has no feelings towards her now and is realizing many of the positives he felt towards her was illusion. That she was not the "perfect" person he perceived but now that he still works with her but hardly sees her when he does see her he see's her selfishness and pain that she and he have caused.
He says he wants to be married to me to raise a family and to have the same relationship with that he had with OW. He realized that mistake too late as I emphatically stated I don't want a relationship like theirs, one built on lies and deceipt and totally based on illusion. He says he sees that too and it was the ideal that he strives for.
It is good to finally feel good in my own skin and know that I can weather anything that comes my way and that I will grow and prosper.
It feels odd to have a husband I don't know and probably never knew and as someone said recently its like your H died and you are dating a new one. I like that anology.
It feels painful that he cannot even remember the good times in our life and that he has trouble seeing the good points he must acknowledge if his feeling for me are to grow.
km4

km4 ...

You are actually doing good. Get him to go to see IC, NC w/ OW and probably MC. If he doesn't then I suggest you to think of plan B. You are ripe for plan B and so does H. If you drag it too long you would end up DV anyway.

-rh-

WS is going to IC and we will go to MC together when IC feels WS is ready. I have recently told WS that I cannot continue when he is still working with OW. I was most emphatic and must have gotten my point across because WS is "seeing" what he can do. The problem lies in that ws is selling a side co and before it can be finalized he has to settle two law suits. The new buyer is paying legal fees and they have almost settled one and the second should occur within the next few months. WS cannot walk away because of this big financial issue although I feel that he could ask new owners who are his friends to eliminate ow position which is part time and she has another job. So my question is how long should I wait?? He has structured it so it does not see her but rarely and then tells me when he does. Explain why we are both ripe for plan B?
thanks
km4

How things change on a moments notice. My last post was just minutes ago and although all seemed good then now I just need to vent.
OW ex called me tonight and gave me an ear full about ow having a coat that ws gave her, that their D bought a motorcycle the same one my ws bought my boys, etc etc but he also said that from what he had heard ow is living life large like a 18 year old again although she is 45 and that she is no longer involved with ws although she still works at the same co. And that their relationship is over. This came from OW sister to ow ex.
We'll being the new me I confronted ws about these issues, no he didn't buy a coat ever, didn't know about other stuff but yes he feels the same way that ow has moved on and so has he. When he sees her he just has no feelings whatso ever except for regret for the pain he has caused. He got angry that ow ex called to "stir the pot" as he says. I say not to blame ex for through him I learn about ow and what she is doing. I believe he should leave job and as stated above he says he is stuck and that if there is no feelings for her then it doesn't matter. I believe he should do it on principle because it effects me and that I don't trust either of them and that they both betrayed me. Big arguement where we both were ready for D.
Although he says he doesn't want D but doesn't want to do something he can't.
I just don't know where I stand. He says he doesn't love me but is moving in that direction and is willing to work as long as it takes to get there. He doesn't remember what drew him to me in the first place. He says he likes that I make him feel special and good and take good care of him and other stuff but just doesn't feel love yet. Is this him and his issue or me and mine. He says he stopped loving me when my house got messy and I got heavy. Those are issues I had when I was feeling like I didn't count in this relationship when he was working working working. Its a round robin. I am now a clean freak and am working on losing weight, but what happens if I get sick or other issues arise were I'm no longer as attractive as he would like.
Its hard to keep hearing he doesn't love me while I still love him.
Its unfair that some spouses come back to the marriage full of remorse and still in love with the bs. What makes it so.
km4

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by km4:
<strong>Explain why we are both ripe for plan B?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually you are the one ripe for plan B. You need to protect whatever LU$ left in you for him. You keep making excuses for him yet it is eating away LU$. Don't wait until it is too late and you don't want to work on M. I would get counseling w/ MB to sort out and help you to decide when and how to go to plan B.

-rh-

Yes, I see where I am "ripe" for plan B. But confused on what I can really expect. The emotional side just wants her out at any cost. The logical side tells me that she is out and moving on and so is ws. If ws leaves the job we lose our house, a given. To me not a big deal but as my C keeps telling me a big deal for a man.
So what is my goal here? Is it for me to get what I want N/C period. Or as he says he's going to IC he's stopped all R with OW, he has no feelings for her, he's wants to make M work and is doing everything possible at this moment. Are these excuses?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by km4:
<strong>So what is my goal here? Is it for me to get what I want N/C period. Or as he says he's going to IC he's stopped all R with OW, he has no feelings for her, he's wants to make M work and is doing everything possible at this moment. Are these excuses? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know your goal ... you know what you want ... hopefully <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ... if not you have to take a step back and re-evaluate your situation. I could tell you what your goal should be ... Get ready to move on w/ or w/o H.

Excuses ? well you decide, I don't live in your household. However you have to see his action to match it with his words. If it not consistant ... tell him so and let him fix it !. He might be one of the really cluless H in R <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> but nothing wrong with that if he is willing to learn and work on it. People could change but are they willing ?

Hope this help ... I am sorry I am busy lately and not hang around much here but I still lurk. -rh-

<small>[ January 18, 2004, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: redhat ]</small>

rh, it always helps and that your just lurking lately means you are getting on with your life, thats a good thing.

Yes I believe I do know what my goal is. I need ws to have n/c with ow for my sake only, that he is willing to commit by doing this for me no matter what the consequences are. I really do feel that he has cut ties with her but the issue for me is my feelings.

I believe H is willing and able to change and that it will take a long time. As my C keeps telling me that quick change is not habit forming but slow change it. Again I believe the issue is me. Am I willing to forget and forgive and wait. I'm not sure. The uncertainity is painful, that H can fall out of feelings for me, makes me wonder will he regain those feelings and if he does will it happen again. As you have said get ready to move on w/ or w/o H and I believe that is exactly what I am doing and where my mindset is.

You are also right in that I must take a step back and re-evaluate. Thanks.

I see you edited your post, so tell me did you hit me with a 2x4 then decide to be nice lol.
Km4

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by km4:
<strong>I see you edited your post, so tell me did you hit me with a 2x4 then decide to be nice lol.
Km4 </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not at all ... I wrote something about me that I changed my mind about posting it.

One thing you have to do ... you have to let your H know about your feeling. You have to give him a chance to try, you owe him that much. Let him fillin your ENs as much as he is capable ... and train him. Also MB weekend are great, there will be one in my area. I am going.

Just make sure that you think about it w/ both eyes wide open. It is a life time decision and make sure it won't be a baggage in your life.

I am in cross road of my life myself. I have 2 bagages in my life that are clearing up. One of them my financial settlement and this will clear up very soon. After this I am free and no contaminant in my next R. I am waffeling between forgeting R or plunging into it. Either I am going to plunge into my career, burried myself w/ work, and forget about any R ... or give my heart to someone and sail this hard life together. I don't know, I don't beleive in casual dating. I change my mind daily. One of my NYE resolution is step back and looking into this ...

-rh-

Rh, I wonder what scares you that you are waffling between R and work. There must be some sparks there or there would be no question. Is it the work involved in the R, the uncertainity, the other person, your girls or just the water looks cold and your afraid to jump in???? You deserve to be happy too remember. You know the old saying on your deathbed you don't look back and say I wished I'd spent more time at work. In fact look at your sig line.... no regrets in 10 years.. which ever path you choose.
good luck
km4

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by km4:
<strong> Rh, I wonder what scares you that you are waffling between R and work. There must be some sparks there or there would be no question.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not afraid of R ... I would give my heart, my soul and my mind ... including my head & my body ... LOL! However I am scare b/c it hurt soo much in my Dv. Would I be able to find someone to treasure my gifts of love ? I don't know. I am fine by myself too, I have friends and activities that I enjoy.

Plus I am clueless in dating ... my first date was my exW and the rest is history.

Anyway I still have 'till end of Feb to chart my life accordingly.

-rh-

rh, part of me wants to say take your time and you'll know when its right, but honestly my first thought is JUMP IN!!! I know its easier said then done and I CAN imagine the fear. But look at everything you have learned and "preach" on a daily basis to us searchers begging for knowledge. I have one of your mantras buzzing around in my head all the time, that if I fulfill EN, don't lb, give complete honesty and time that I rekindle love is his eyes and he won't know what hit him. I would think the same could be said for a new R. And you are not clueless at dating you already have the skills as stated above. The bumbling I assume your speaking of happens in all new R. There is never certainity in anything which is something I have learned through this but what if that kept you from trying, what a waste. You have so much more to give now don't waste that either.
km4

km4,

yeah ... I dived in head first recently actually ... LOL!. I gave soo much that it scared me actually (I never care about someone this deep) but I don't think the feeling is mutual at all, ouch!. However it is ok, I am always be her friend and be there for her.

For a new R ... I don't want to use MB at all, not until we really have understanding we are going somewhere more serious, taking the R to the next level. I would like her to see what I am and who I am and let her inspect it. I would apply radical honesty only ... even I might scare her away w/ my baggage ... I come in a package. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I know someone will be there for me, I just have to look for it ...

Thanks, -rh-

Its funny what events are my undoing. Been very stressed lately WS has many issues that is adding to his already depressed state, one being that I'm having a tough time believing him on some issues with OW that he swears is not true. So he is not feeling close to me and I am having a tough time sucking it up and giving him the unconditional support he needs.
Then today while in a town 20 miles away I ran into OW mother, I have known her for 20 years also being best friends with OW we have done much with her family. The funny thing is that she lives 60miles away in the opposite direction and how in the world did our paths cross after 2 years. She engulfed me in a big bear hug told me how sorry she was for what her daughter had done to me. It was my undoing and I fell apart and I'm not even sure why. Although perhaps I am glad that even though OW cannot see the pain she has and is causing me her family acknowledges it.
km4

I realized today that I have done everything I could and it is WS time to decide what he wants. I have not felt like ws has been doing what needs to be done to help our relationship grow. He has not been setting aside time for us or keeping me informed about contact with ow even if it is business and so I have not been able to believe he has been honest. I am tired. Went to IC today and he saw my pain and frustration also. He said WS is trying to escape on purpose that he doesn't want the conflict or the work that involves a real relationship that by continueing this fantasy with ow even in his head he can have a perfect relationship. He says it takes two and that I will have to make a decision but not right now. Gosh I hate that not right now thing, he doesn't believe in making decisions when conflicts are rampant as they are now with wh losing his business, his brother dying and ws being in major depression etc etc.
IC believes we need to MC together not just once in awhile but all the time along with WS having IC. When I told WS all this he said he's not sure he wants to do MC because he has no feelings for me still, that he doesn't have any feelings for anyone because he realizes he's depressed and he feels no hope in the future, but he still beleives he had a special bond with ow and he wants that type of relationship that he had with her and he doesn't believe he can have it with me. I told him he could have it with me but he had to do the work and believe it was possible. I have had enough and told him that was fine that I have worked very hard at this, that I think he is very special and that I think he will become an even more amazing person from going through this, that I hope he will someday again find someone that would work as hard as I did to keep him. The stupid thing is that I worry about what will happen to him when we are gone. I think it would be too much right now and so another reason for a waiting period. But the difference is this time I no longer hope he will step up to bat and put action to the words he says so easily. He won't.