WS told me last night that he had an A before we got married 3 years ago. I didn't think I could be more devastated than after the first d-day. I remember the time before our wedding. He was spending alot of time with another co-worker (current A is with co-worker) and he didn't try to keep a secret like the current A. One night he still wasn't home at midnight and I started calling the highway patrol for accident reports. I didn't think of it as an EA then. WS has a lot of female friends, but I remember him telling me about one of their outings. I told him, "That sounds like a date!" I just knew it wasn't right.

About a month ago, during one of our Retrouvaille dialogues, he did admit that he had had feelings for OW#1. I suppose that was my real d-day #2. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I couldn't believe it, but as with lots of BS', I didn't let myself think it could have been a PA, as well.

Of course, we see this differently. I see a man who has a problem. He sees a relationship that has a problem. I can't stop crying. I don't want to let myself trust him again. He can't even let the current OW go! I read some posts on here and I think I might have the strength to stay and work on our M, but the next minute, I can't look at our Christmas photo on my desk. I don't know who the man is in the picture!

I'm so glad you found this place. Start with Plan A. Read all about it - seach under Plan A and Plan B, or look at Toomuchcoffeeman or John39's links. It is miserable to find out, but things can get better and your marriage can be better than ever. Keep posting here, you have found a place where others care, and yes this marriage is worth saving.

LBC - I agree with believer. . . every marriage is worth saving! As my name indicates I am the ever going optimist. Keep the faith and keep posting, there's alot of great advice out here!

Hope

lbc,
Sorry to hear about your news. I know what you mean when you say you don't even know your H anymore. My H will seem like he's truly making an effort, and I will see a glimmer of the man he used to be, and then he opens his mouth and says some unbelievable comment about the R with OW.

How did your week apart go? Perhaps your H did some reflecting on your M and felt you deserved to know the truth. Maybe he'll start to fill you in on everything, if you're ready. Is he back in the house?

I know it's hard to keep up the fight, but just remind yourself that it's a process, that takes time. I believe the WS sees our efforts, they're just not able to acknowledge them yet. My H told me the other night that he knew I could've left a long time ago, but he's thankful that I hung in there, and at least our M has a chance now. He's currently in his 5th week of withdrawal (although it's not completely NC due to work) and continues to see his IC and take his anti-D's. He says that he is starting to see that the R was an addiction, rather than a true, loving, healthy R. Don't get me wrong, I'm not even considering us to be in recovery, yet. I'm not holding my breath, just continue to Plan A my very best and avoid the LB's. Until he initiates MC, I'm still in limbo.

If you believe in your H, and your M, then keep the faith that deep down, he does, too. He's just so irrational right now...

Stay strong, and just remember, it takes time.
MOP

Thanks to everyone for the responses. I didn't really expect any, but I'm grateful someone is here. I'm not religious, but there must be some divine intervention going on. It really has felt like d-day all over again with me thinking I could never do a Plan A. I don't even want to do anything nice for WS.

But one thing has changed these past couple of days, I haven't yelled at WS in front of our baby. We have been worried about my anger around our daughter. I know I shouldn't do it, but I couldn't help it. The past couple of evenings, I've been civil to WS. We've even talked a little bit about the As and I didn't even start yelling. Maybe I'm just numb, but I did yell at him on the phone yesterday morning on the way to work.

As for ENs, I'm not even trying to fulfill them at this point, but I'm probably doing something right. I've actually been getting stuff from the kitchen for WS when he asks. No anger or resentment. Not sure what has changed. Maybe he's asking differently? Maybe I'm tired of being angry all the time? I don't know.

He's having a *very* hard time at work these past couple of days and called me yesterday afternoon with his concerns. This is one of his top ENs -- he needs me to validate and be empathic to his feelings. In the past, I would be caught frozen because I knew what he wanted, but I just had no idea what to do. This time, I just didn't even let myself care. He continually says OW fills his ENs, so he can call her. But he didn't, he calls me when these things happen. Why, if I don't give him anything?

Well, I didn't do much better last night in validating his feelings, but at least he didn't get angry about it. He was probably just grateful I wasn't screaming. WS called again this morning, he may have to lay off someone. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Not sure if I was able to help, but I'm not letting myself feel too much.

I read some posts yesterday that are giving me some strength and I'm trying to appreciate that he comes home every night. Maybe he's just trying to be nice right now cuz of the 2nd d-day, but I will just look at it positively.

I haven't even been thanking him for making dinner, but I couldn't help myself when I complimented him this morning on what he was wearing. This has been important to him in the past. I did it without thinking, because that's how I felt. It gives me some hope that I may be able to do a good Plan A, but I'm not putting that pressure on myself right now.

I have been dealt a horrible blow and I'm not afraid of feeling the pain for now.

MOP: Of course, the week apart did not result in a decision from WS, but we both felt more peaceful. I didn't even cry. WS kept calling me and I'm positive he didn't meet OW. He did call her every night for an hour or two.

Yes, I think the previous A was weighing heavily on him. He thought of telling me at Retrouvaille, but when he went to confession the priest told him not to tell. Yuck! I asked him why he told me now. He couldn't really answer. I asked him if he did it so that I could make his choice for him (I would leave) or if he told me so that if we rebuild, then it will be on a completely honest foundation. He told me we needed total honesty in our relationship if we are to rebuild.

This actually has relieved some stress from me if you can believe it. Because he told me of the previous A, I felt I needed to be totally honest with him. I haven't been able to tell him that our MC thought he was a love addict and I think he is narcissistic. He is considering the love addict profile, but vehemently denies he is a narcissist. But the thing is I can now tell him exactly what I think and I don't have to keep trying to beat around the bush, hoping he'll get the message.

I'm so happy that your WS has stopped seeing OW. I think you are right. We both don't want to give up this M -- that's why neither one of us has left, yet.

Thank you for your encouragement.

lbc:
All I can say is to focus on the positive things and keep yourself strong. You are a good person, and no matter what happens you need to have a good self image for your future and your child. Keep working to improve those things in your life that you know are impediments to a good relationship (yelling, etc.). Believe me, I need additional help and strength each day, sometimes each hour. We all know your pain, we know your frustrations firsthand in our own marriages and the affairs that brought us to this point. Hang on as long as you can in Plan A and make it a good Plan A, so that if in the end it does not work out, you can sleep at night knowing that you gave it your all, that you are not to blame for any of the fallout. And who knows, he may just come around!

As the world turns -- I swear I'm in a friggin' soap opera! OW has asked WS for money. Hello! We don't have any. Why do you think he is still living here?! You would not even believe it, though. I did not LB at all when he told me. I cried a little bit and said I can't believe I'm giving her money now. We agreed this delays his plans for moving out and he is going to tell her that. (Maybe has already told her.)

I didn't feel the urge to tell him this is bad news, etc., and he should rethink his choice of OW. I guess I saw it as a major LB on her part and *maybe* it's another chance at Plan A. I really can't believe how calm I've been.

Sure enough, I didn't need to say a word to WS. He's been asking me if I think OW is taking advantage of him, etc. I tried to be honest without LB'ing. I said if we all paid attention to red flags, none of us would be in relationships. But that OW is just beginning her disentanglement from her family's financial situation and it will take a long time to get out of that, if that's what she wants.

Although I feel the only way I can have some peace is to assume our M is over, I can't help but think that this peacefulness is what Plan A is all about. Maybe I will end up doing a wonderful Plan A right when I've stopped trying. Who knew?

Well, I guess I'm stuck with WS for the holidays. But if I make life at home bearable, Plan A may have some more time to work. Wish me luck!

hurting: Have you tried the phone counseling, yet? I thought you got some great advice on your thread. You should post an update.

Hi lbc,

I have read your posts before and I do see improvement in a couple of ways, although I am sure to you it does not FEEL that way. Perhaps it is sometimes clearer to someone on the outside looking in?

1. He's being honest. Sure it hurts. Didn't you say you wanted honesty though? This is YOUR job...to accept his honesty even though it hurts.

It's a good thing in the long-run. Look he's already sharing his concerns/fears about OW!

2. You did not LB!!!! YAY-hooray! Good for you. Frankly I did not write before because I get tired of beating up on BS about LBing! I cannot say this enough: you cannot LB. No "trying". DO. As in DO NOT LB. Ever again. Stop. Forever.

So I wonder now: perhaps you are finally emotionally detaching? This is a very good thing. It allows you to think before you react, and to think about how you will react...in short, to gain control over your reactions.

So often it is clear that the WS wants to come home/reconcile/end the A, but the actions of the BS are making it less and less likely that the waffler will commit.

With that said, all you can do is your best. He may still make the wrong decision. He is in an A because he is unhappy, suffering from low self-esteem, etc...none of it is good stuff. That's why the burden falls on you, the BS.

Gosh it's unfair isn't it? So let's find another positive: build on this new emotional detachment, feel it empower you. Be proud...you've just learned a new life skill and it will make your relationships better in the future.

Use that strength to decide what you want to do. Can you feel sorry for him? Understand he is in a terrible place? If so, you probably have enough love left to try for a while yet.

WARNING: You are only in Plan A if you can control your LBs. I don't care how long you "Plan A" for -- if you are LBing even a little bit...well, that's kind of like the WS having just a little bit of N/C...it doesn't work that way.

If not, then use this strength to know that you CAN do a Plan B. You can go N/C yourself. You can do it with grace, dignity and calm.

Hope you find this post more positive than negative...I think you've had a real breakthrough myself...awed

P.S. Please please please don't go off now all **** -a-leekie as I've seen other BS do so many times in the past few weeks!...build on your breakthrough...don't revert to previous behaviour...when/if you feel anger/resentment creeping in: banish it! Physical exercise, brisk walks, furious housecleaning, write things down...get it out and over with...take deep breaths...

I know it is hard to do but you will feel so much better reclaiming yourself from this mess...no matter what else happens, what decision you make...truly, this is a breakthrough for you and I suspect you can make it a permanent one...

Oh yeah, and one other thing...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I said if we all paid attention to red flags, none of us would be in relationships. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's a bit harsh isn't it? Or did you mean "bad" relationships?

<small>[ December 08, 2003, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Oh a little OT humour...

That's funny! "It" (a variation on "They") edited my post...didn't like the name of the Scottish soup...I thought I'd made an error but no! That's a bad word even when hyphenated...so I guess it won't like **** -eyed either! Here come the asterisks!

Hi awed, thank you for your thoughts. No, I never said I wanted honesty, ha! Just kidding. But I'm the one that had my head in the sand during our M. I was afraid of the truth, but after these As, nothing anyone says can hurt me as much as that. It has been pretty liberating -- this feeling of being able to say anything. I may joke about it too much, but I'm not being mean about it. Last night WS said, "I like you better when you say what's on your mind."

Not sure if I can keep from LB'ing forever, but maybe I can learn to apologize. Another thing that WS always complained about -- I never apologize.

It's actually easy for me to emotionally detach. When I tried it before, though, I think I just wrapped myself in my anger. I ignored WS and whenever I communicated with him, it was short and distant. But now, I can feel myself trying to detach, but I can still joke with WS about his As, I can still do nice things for him, and I can try to improve where I need improving.

Yes, I definitely get the sense that WS would love to stay at home, but I have been driving him away for the past month.

Shoot! You make perfect sense about LB'ing and Plan A. It's like having a little bit of contact.

About my red flag comment -- I've never been in a good relationship, so I don't know. But when trouble appears in an M, don't people go back to the beginning and say, "I should've seen that"? Well, if there are no red flags in the beginning of good relationships, then I can expect even better things if I don't get back together with WS.

I'm afraid I didn't get the 'scottish' soup comment -- I'm Mexican! But I certainly understood what you meant.

Well... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> the name of the Scottish soup was deleted because the first part is a "bad" word (it's taken on those connotations but its origins are actually taken from the chicken soup base)...the soup is c*ck-a-leekie soup...just a silly expression I use in this context, like saying don't go off half-c*cked, or acting c*ck-eyed, etc.

Okay...on to more serious matters...

As for LBing, glad you got the point...it really is the biggest challenge for a BS...I only speak from personal experience...to truly work towards reconciliation, you need to control your reactions to a very bad situation.

Calm, think, and then speak quietly. That's where the emotional detachment comes into play.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's actually easy for me to emotionally detach. When I tried it before, though, I think I just wrapped myself in my anger. I ignored WS and whenever I communicated with him, it was short and distant. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...then you weren't emotionally detached. If you were reacting in anger (even passive aggressive anger) you were still reacting to him.

I'm going to copy some stuff below (sorry -- can't remember the sources for it all) that you can consider using...I know you feel detachment now, but just in case this is just numbness (!) and the anger/resentment comes back...

This exercise (at the end) really helped me immensely, to figure out what I was doing and how I could see things differently. If you do it, I'd encourage you to write as much as you can...keep on writing until you get it out of your system...leave it a few days and then review it...as I say, I found it eye-opening and it truly allowed me to detach from the incredible pain I was feeling...

Heck, I even got to the point where I could tell H to have a good time (and mean it!) when I knew he was going to see OW! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Detachment helped me to control emotions that were getting in the way of reconciliation.

BTW: our recovery is sailing along so smoothly it is unreal. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I'm convinced these skills are absolutely crucial to a good recovery too. So the positive is you can look at this as homework for your future! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Truly lbc, I think you'll find it's just a good thing for you in general, a way to deal with any of life's annoyances and hurts.

Well...that's my preaching for today...really really glad to hear that your sense of humour is there for you...it also makes recovery easier...awed

P.S. I'm so sorry to hear the following... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> About my red flag comment -- I've never been in a good relationship, so I don't know. But when trouble appears in an M, don't people go back to the beginning and say, "I should've seen that"? Well, if there are no red flags in the beginning of good relationships, then I can expect even better things if I don't get back together with WS. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...but I think detachment (and all the MB principles) would help with any new relationship too...

Detachment

II. Detachment

Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship. Attached, we take personally all that is said, not said, done and not done. Our ego gets wounded and we are more inclined to those actions that will undermine our very best chances of accomplishing our goals.

We can not control the actions of another. We are, however, responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness. If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.

Met with love we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not the mind saying, &#8216;I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.&#8217; It is the natural acceptance that I am alone responsible for how I act. I can not control another person, but I can control how I respond to them.

Wait, "detachment" depends on how you are interpreting what it is to "detach".
Its not necessarily distancing yourself from the relationship. Its more about not letting yourself be hurt by the involvement in the relationship. Its about not trying to control others and accepting you do not have control over them and their actions.

That is my understanding and how it was taught to me at BFC and in counseling.

"Detaching is not detaching from the person whom we care about, but from the agony of involvement."

Detachment is something we must do first!
before we can begin to work on ourselves, to live our own lives, feel our own feelings, and solve our own problems until we have detached from the object of our obsession. It appears that even our Higher Power cant do much with us until we have detached.

Attachment is becoming overly -involved, sometimes hopelessly entangled.

Attachment can take several forms:

* we may become excessively worried abut, and preoccupied with, a problem or person (our mental energy is attached).

*Or, we may graduate to becoming obsessed with and controlling of the people and problems in our environment (our mental, physical, and emotional energy is directed at the object of our obsession).

* we may become reactionaries, instead of acting authentically of our own volition (our mental, emotional, and physical energy is attached).

* We may become emotionally dependent on the people around us (now were really attached).

* WE may become caretakers (rescuers, enablers) to the people around us (firmly attaching ourselves to their need for us).

Overinvolvement of any kind may keep us in a state of chaos. Worrying and obsessing keep us so tangled in our heads we cant solve our problems.

Whenever we become attached in these ways to someone or something, we become dtached from ourselves. We lose touch with ourselves. WE forfeit our power and ability to think feel act and take care of ourselves. We lose control.

Detachment is not a cold hostile withdrawal; a resigned, despairing acceptance of anything life and people throw our way; a robotical walk through life oblivious to and totally unaffected by people and problems. Nor is it a removal of our love and concern.

Ideally detachment is releasing or detaching from a person or problem in love. WE mentally emotionally and sometimes physically disengage ourselves from unhealthy and frequently painful entanglements with another persons life and responsibilities, and from problems we cannot solve, according to a handout, entitled "Detachment." that has been passed around al-anon groups for years.

Detachment is based on the premises that each person is responsible for himself, htat we cant solve problems that aren&#8217;t ours to solve, and that worrying doesn&#8217;t help. Keep our hands off of other peoples responsibilities.

Detachment involves present moment living-living in the here and now. We allow life to happen instead of forcing and trying to control it. we relinquish regrets over the past and fears about the future we make the most of each day. Also accepting reality - the facts. It requires faith - in ourselves, in God, in other people, and in the natural order and destiny of things in this world.

Detaching does not mean we don&#8217;t care. It means we learn to love, care, and be involved without going crazy. We stop creating all this chaos in our minds and environments. We become free to care and to love in ways that help others and don&#8217;t hurt ourselves.

The rewards of from detachment are great: serenity; a deep sense of peace; the ability to give and receive love in self-enhancing, energizing ways; and the freedom to find real solutions to our problems.

I know you have problems. I understand that many of you are deeply grieved over, and concerned about, certain people in your lives. Many of them may be destroying themselves, you, and your family, right before your eyes. But I cant do anything to control those people; and you probably cant either. If you could you would have done it by now.

Detach. Detach in love, or detach in anger, but strive for detachment. It will become easier with practice.


Activity/Exercise

1. Is there a problem or person in your life that you are excessively worried about? Write about that person or problem.

Write as much as you need to write to get it out of your system.

When you have written all you need to write about that person or problem, focus on yourself. What are you thinking? What are you feeling?

2. How do you feel about detaching from that person or problem?

What might happen if you detach? Will that probably happen anyway? How has staying "attached"--worrying obsessing trying to control -- helped so far?

3. If you did not have that person or problem in your life, what would you be doing with your life that is different from what you are doing now? How would you be feeling and behaving? Spend a few minutes visualizing yourself living your life, feeling and behaving that way -- in spite of your unsolved problem.

awed,
great info on detachment. I'm afraid I could use some myself! BUT, how do you detach, without the WS thinking you no longer care about A, or the M? It seems to me like WS would get sense that BS is OK with A, and actions, and perhaps no longer wants to fight for M?

MOP

Well MOP, a lot of people might argue that that is what the WS needs to feel! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Not so much "don't care" but "moving forward"! Look: my H reinterated what other WS express at some point or other (if they truly recover that is) -- they were going through a period of insane selfishness.

How could they do such cruel things to us, their beloved S? Mean, hateful, humiliating crap? Because they weren't really thinking about us! (Or at best, just felt guilty whenever they thought of us so they would instead think about pleasant things like OP! And another reason why so many are convinced they are "in love" -- thoughts of their S trigger negative emotions like guilt and anger.)

WS were consumed with themselves. Their actions and words bear this out, often well into recovery.

So emotional detachment allows you to step back from the melee and provide emotional support/interest, etc. for your S without the LBs. Fill any ENs you can (admiration - how hard is that one when you are feeling massive resentment towards WS!; recreational activities; etc.) although most will not let you do much at this time. But even simple "thank you"s work towards ENs. One piece of advice I gave someone is to treat the WS like your critical but beloved grandmother coming for a visit -- mind your Ps and Qs, always be nice, presentable, etc.!

But the real thing a BS can do, in my opinion MUST do, is to stop the LBs. Even when the WS says something cruel and vicious to your face...take a deep breath, think and calmly answer in a fashion that supports the eventual reconciliation of your marriage. That is probably impossible to do unless you are emotionally detached. Most BS instincts will take us down the wrong path every time.

But...this does not mean you don't care. It means that you have found empowerment, strength in the path you've chosen. Like anyone, anywhere in the world, at any time in history...you've found the inner power to endure through incredible pain, against incredible odds.

Well...this is how I see it. My counsellor specifically encouraged it. While many others here don't specifically name it, certainly the MB principles depend on it (ie. not to LB with a cheating spouse certainly takes stamina, courage and calmness).

Hope this helps...read through the material again and again...I found that really helped the principles sink in, although the exercise was the clincher for me to truly change.

And yes...I too thought I was detached until I REALLY detached...awed

awed: Thank you so much for your reply. I've heard a couple of people here talk about detaching, but it's not really pushed in the MB concepts. It may have helped me to have this as a goal earlier on OR is this something that all BS' need to find on their own?

Okay, gotcha on the Scottish soup. I've heard this Scottish thing elsewhere, so now I know what it means.

When I mentioned emotionally detaching before to my therapist she didn't like the idea, because that is my defense mechanism. But I do feel something differently this time. It's like I'm on a journey and I'm not afraid to feel the feelings that will come. And I will be on this path with WS or not.

Oh yeah, I could never understand how BS' could send off WS to the OW with a smile. I did it in the beginning, but it was probably out of fear and just a blind trust in MB principles. But my anger got in the way. He has seen her this past two days and I haven't questioned/LBd about it at all. I used to ask where he went and if he said they went to a hotel, then all h*ll broke loose.

He was a little late last night and I just made dinner. This is a big deal cuz I hardly cook. And before we went to sleep, he thanked me for the meal. I'm working on not trying to control him so much. Traditionally, I help my mom make tamales before Christmas. My instinct is to not go this year just in case WS doesn't want to go with me. My fear is that this gives him a day with OW. But I know I can't control him and it is not healthy for me to stop doing things I like because I'm afraid of what he's going to do. I need to become the strong person I was when WS met me.

I'm beginning to recognize that if we are to reconcile and be married forever, I *need* to get my anger under control. I need to find another way to communicate with WS. This is the only way we can have the M we both want.

Thank you so much for the exercises. Everyone has been telling me to journal and I've resisted for some reason. Maybe I was tired of dwelling in so much anger? Now, I feel I'm at the beginning of MY recovery and I would actually love to journal that.

For MOP: I can see one benefit for detaching...WS can't think straight with two women clamoring for what they need. If WS can find peace somewhere, perhaps they can start moving forward on their recovery as well. Surprisingly, my need for a decision from WS may have only enabled his fence-sitting.

At this point, I'm not really worried about fulfilling ENs, but I notice I do little things here and there. I'm not convinced I can do one of his biggest ENs -- conversation -- consistently, but we're having a conversation about 'true love' in email right now. It's much easier for me to write down how I feel rather than say it. On the other hand, he could talk for hours about love and life.

The strange part is that WS will let me fulfill as many ENs as I wish. I don't know when we'll get back to SF, but he responds well to anything else I might do. If I remain calm, he will actually do sweet things for me, too.

Thanks again, awed!

Hi LBC, awed18, and Mother of Pearl


I'm posting this question on this thread because I noticed several women post here. I hope I don't offend anyone by doing so, especially you lbc. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

But if either of you would be willing or all of you please answer ?.

Situation:
WS ended A.
However is recently reluctant to discuss some MB principles.
I am concerned if he doesn't discuss Policy of Joint Agreement with me more he may regress.
I've been thinking about turning off the physical love (no lovin')supply. Afterall, why do you want any when you won't discuss what I think is important. Is this a mistake? Especailly being that it may be LB and may violate Policy of Joint Agreement.
Thank you much.

I just found out that posting on your post LBC is called hijacking. I don't want to do that. I apologize. Please disregard my post.

Hi freetobe,

I can't speak for lbc but I certainly don't mind giving you my input...I started collecting material yesterday regarding emotional detachment (re: your other question) and haven't finished yet! Also I'd post this reply on your other thread but I find that to be a personal conversation between you and redhat which means then I'd feel I was the one that was doing the threadjacking!!!

WARNING: This is going to be long because I hope it has some practical advice that lbc or MOP might also find useful. So I talk about both Plan A and recovery.

I get the feeling from reading your stuff that you have not been at this for a long time (ie. H is still likely in withdrawal?)? Or have I gotten this wrong?

I'll pass along the best piece of advice -- okay! the most succinct piece of advice -- I read by an MB poster (happened to be Twyla) early on in recovery, which proved to be my guiding light..."lighten up"!

It went hand in hand with the one I most used during Plan A -- "do you want to be right or do you want to be married!"

These both served as simple reminders of WHAT I was doing and WHY I was doing so.

I studied marital recovery like my life depended on it (it did, but that's another story!)...suffice to say that I read hundreds of hours of discussions, every possible book I could get my hands on, articles, websites, etc. I had tons of great material, a lot of how-to's, motivational letters/quotes, bits of articles pasted together...great stuff I used again and again to keep me going whenever I was low, angry or in a bad way.

But something I'd come across back in the spring proved to be really useful too: how to change habits. The professional advice was that you needed to bring it down to something short and simple. Then print it, post it and/or memorize it. Constantly remind yourself of it. And it would take about 3-6 months for the habit to truly change (depending on how deeply ingrained it was).

Although we think we retain a lot of information and advice, we actually don't. Good intentions get watered down or forgotten in the heat of the moment (or whatever)...that's why keeping it simple = remembering what you want to change.

Plan A

In my case, how could I remember my intention (save my marriage) when everything HE did sent me screaming up the walls with frustration, anger, resentment, loathing, or left me devastated on the floor, bawling, frightened, in a dark dark place???

1. I worked on emotional detachment to take back my own emotions.

2. I came up with the saying that would SNAP me back to "reality" (ie. where I WANTED to be, calm, in control, thinking, warm, compassionate, caring and understanding). The phrase: "Do you want to be right or do you want to be married" did the trick for me. Everytime.

Recovery

During recovery, I'd achieved a fair measure of emotional detachment so I could hear a lot more painful facts without LBing. Stuff like details of the A that hurt beyond measure (ie. sleeping in our bed). I could listen calmly and ask questions. I could talk about my feelings and listen to his crap (early on, fog dissipating, he'd get angry/resentful or wounded and distant) and still persevere...work at finding ways to say things so that he could really HEAR me and my truth...I could get the things off my chest that needed to be said...and slowly, we recovered together.

The new motto I used in recovery was "lighten up" -- it was just the right ticket. As Twyla explained, have fun! You didn't go through all this crap in order to have dreary night after night filled with tears, and resentment, and anger, and frustration, and...you get the picture. You did it in order to have a fantastic marriage! So start enjoying the fruits along with the hard work.

Wink and tickle as well as talking about MB concepts. I joked every chance I could get which also had the benefit of making it easier for H to discuss horribly, excruciatingly embarrassing details with me. (Be careful what you ask for...that piece of MB wisdom is also true...this knowledge can never be undone).

Again...this may feel counterintuitive to you but think about it within the context of Plan A... people think meeting ENs and not LBing is crazy when you know he's having an A...but it works.

Well...having fun in recovery, especially early on in recovery, will make him a much more enthusiastic partner. Fun in the bedroom if you can, if it is safe. Break down the walls of conflict and secrecy. Make your own walls of intimacy. Fun helps you to do this!

Hope this helps you all as much as it did me...

Very specifically to your questions:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> However is recently reluctant to discuss some MB principles.
I am concerned if he doesn't discuss Policy of Joint Agreement with me more he may regress.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have fun, and relax...you've got lots of time to recover! Don't push too much...respect his need to recover too. Have less discussion or keep your discussion to specific times. POJA a specific weekly time.

And he doesn't have to agree to POJA at first. It's like convincing him through your actions that the marriage is worthwhile. He'll be convinced that POJA can work if you've been doing it for a bit (ie. creatively meeting challenges, preventing deadlocks, etc.). You have TIME to get to the big stuff.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I've been thinking about turning off the physical love (no lovin')supply. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bad bad idea. This is a punishment and definitely an LB.

But generally speaking, as redhat put so well one day, don't think in terms of punishment, think in terms of rewards! Use positive training techniques: reward the good and ignore the bad. Have sex after every discussion.

Hey! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Stop laughing!!! It actually worked for me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Weekly sessions were followed by weekly sessions... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You get my drift...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Afterall, why do you want any when you won't discuss what I think is important. Is this a mistake? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is your TAKER talking. Let your GIVER turn it around. Would you like to be treated that way? If he refused to give you discussion until you put out for him sexually?

Deposit some love units instead and you'll get them back. Or if EVENTUALLY you don't (be patient, the fog takes a while to completely mist away), then you respectfully discuss the issue, and use radical honesty to explain why you think it is so important to have the discussions.

Does this help? awed

Hi lbc:

You are so very welcome for the free advice... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ...I hope some of the suggestions and techniques I've used work for you as well.

Warning: the following is a very long reply. That's what I do here at MB...post very long replies!

I hope this detail gives you some perspective from an outsider, something that helps you in your day-to-day struggles. Perspective from someone who's been through it and come out the other side laughing. Yup...laughing...we have a much better marriage than long ago when we were last happy...way better...in silly romantic love but with a rock solid foundation...

I cannot say enough about the success I continue to experience... at each new impasse with my H, we manage to stumble through on our own by following the MB principles. And I should also add that while he's agreed in general to using the principles, he still has not spent ANY time reading or exploring them! I do all this work... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...I'm the reader and he's a doer.

I demonstrate the principles through my actions. He follows because...guess what???...harmony between you makes perfect sense! You don't need to explain how it is in his best interests...he figures it out for himself!!! This is the true secret of MB...it's not about manipulation, it's about joy and having fun and minimizing conflict and loving your spouse and feeling loved by your spouse...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thank you so much for your reply. I've heard a couple of people here talk about detaching, but it's not really pushed in the MB concepts. It may have helped me to have this as a goal earlier on OR is this something that all BS' need to find on their own? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I spent a lot of time on Friday (and a bit of time yesterday but then I got distracted writing the above reply to freetobe) searching for all the applicable references within the MB concepts. You are quite correct that nowhere is it identified as "emotional detachment" but the need for this particular ability is referenced over and over again.

The Harley articles talk about understanding that you don't control your spouse, about needing to remain calm, about taking a perspective that supports your marriage goals instead of working against them, about how counter-intuitive a lot of this feels to people, etc. The exercise I posted will certainly help you to implement the MB principles and achieve the success Harley speaks of.

I have so much material now, I need to start a new post! I think I'll capitalize on freetobe's resource thread idea and post a series of related concepts...

You are also bang on: why should a BS have to dig so hard to figure out what they need to know? For a long time I've wanted to post some specific techniques because even if you understand the concepts, finding some way to make them applicable in your day to day life would make the beleaguered life of a BS easier!!!

In answer to your posting:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When I mentioned emotionally detaching before to my therapist she didn't like the idea, because that is my defense mechanism. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suspect your therapist didn't want you to detach from YOUR emotions, not his. Detaching from his emotions, or to put it differently -- to stop thinking that you have control over him -- is considered "healthy" behaviour among most therapists.

For example, if your spouse is engaging in unhealthy behaviour -- drinking, drugs, gambling, (affairs!) -- there is nothing you can do about it until they hit bottom and change their choices. So detach from their emotions and continue to FEEL your own. Acknowledge they are YOUR emotions (sadness, anger, resentment) and then (only then in my opinion) can you CONTROL your reactions to your emotions.

Is that any clearer? You still need to experience your own emotions. Otherwise, you'll run into all kinds of difficulty when those repressed emotions start to take over your life!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh yeah, I could never understand how BS' could send off WS to the OW with a smile. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I am not promoting this at all...this happened to me prior to D-day, when I suspected he was having an A but before it was exposed. I used this example (rather inappropriately, as you point out) to illustrate that at the peak of pain, anger and resentment, I was able to employ calm and control to both MY words and actions.

It was a feat I was extremely proud of! It also showed me how powerful emotional detachment was when implementing MB principles.

He was hurting me "unintentionally" but I was able to see past that and interact with him "as if" we were happily married instead. Of course, if the hurt was intentional (ie. after D-day), I certainly told him the boundary -- "it hurts me to think that you may still be in contact with OW but I appreciate your honesty in telling me when she calls. I appreciate that you are worried I'll get angry, or that it will hurt me to hear things I don't like. But lying hurts far worse than telling me she called does. And because of all the secrecy during the affair, I want to have honesty between us more than anything else."

Having said that, one of the most difficult MB principles for everyone to implement is the length of Plan A then the transition to Plan B. I read this over and over again in various threads.

Plan A is intended to separate WS from OP, and should only be carried out for a set amount of time. Otherwise, you will inevitably start to LB, or start to lose your love for WS altogether. That is why Plan B needs to be followed if the amount of time runs out and WS cannot seem to commit to one or the other, OR if the WS commits to the OP outright.

While you are in Plan A, you need to set the stage for Plan B to work effectively. That is why "no LBs" are absolutely critical. I read people saying they are Plan A'ing but LB'ing at the same time. That is really an oxymoron.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He was a little late last night and I just made dinner. This is a big deal cuz I hardly cook. And before we went to sleep, he thanked me for the meal. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is great! Good to see improving communications between the two of you.

Did you say: "That's okay sweetie, it's easy to do nice things for you!" ruffle his hair, and turn away to sleep? What would be his reaction if you did? Do you think he would be in a state of shock?

If so...great! Surprising him with how amazing you are, how interesting, how much you can still surprise him, how you must really love him...this would all be a part of a successful Plan A. GIVE him something to think about. Something to wonder about. Something to think long and hard about losing. Losing to some other guy probably. Who wouldn't want a honey like you after all? (Especially making hot tamales! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm working on not trying to control him so much. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excellent! Because in truth you don't control him at all. But you can certainly seduce him all you want to!

Listen, OW in my case told my H that I was trying to win him back! Well dog-gone -- imagine that!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Anyhow, he thought to himself, so what??? He thought the changes in me were amazing. He was so interested in what I was doing. And couldn't believe I was so cheerful (I'd been SOOOOO angry before). He thought when the affair was revealed I would chuck him out, laughing away to myself because I was doing so many interesting things and enjoying myself so much that I wouldn't miss a loser like him!

My point is the 180s work. My only caveat is make them honest. Make them livable. Like yourself a whole lot more as a result.

And one other thing...my H thought all of the above. But yet he still was having the A, lying to me, living in the fog...being the alien. It was only gradually that our communication got better. He started really talking with me. Occasionally kissed me on the cheek on the way out the door. Little tiny baby steps that told me the fog was starting to lift.

So don't stop LBing and expect results right away. Stop LBing for life, to make you a better person. It will do so. And the positive results will come in time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Traditionally, I help my mom make tamales before Christmas. My instinct is to not go this year just in case WS doesn't want to go with me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Play it by ear. Ask him if he wants to go. Remember that you are not playing a game with him. You are starting to live your marriage like you want it to eventually be. POJA. Seek his input and honest feelings.

"Do you want to go to my mom's this year while I make tamales with her? I would really enjoy your company and she always loves when you're there" (only say this if it is true of course!). "If you don't want to go, I was thinking maybe we could _________ " (insert something HE'D love to do, not something you'd like to do). I suspect your mom would understand you not coming if your marriage is on the line?

On the other hand, if you are trying to be more independent, if your dependence on him is an issue for him, then go to your mom's. Ask him to come, prepare for rejection, be absolutely gracious if he refuses to go with you, and head off cheerfully. Speak cheerfully about your time there when you are home. And don't volunteer the info unless he asks.

The two scenarios above both follow MB principles hich is why I'm using this as an example: YOU have to decide what is best in your situation based on your past experience with your H, your current communication style, his ENs, your true feelings, etc. etc.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My fear is that this gives him a day with OW. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know how hard this is...but don't give in to the fear. He WILL spend time with her if he is going to do so. Accept that as fact.

Some of the options for you include: if you don't want him to spend time with her, try talking to him honestly, respectfully, using only "I" statements. OR come up with other things to do so that he'll CHOOSE to do something with you rather than spending time with her. Or do other things yourself to distract yourself from what he's doing. Think about whether or not it is time for Plan B if he is truly that uncommitted to you. And how long you are capable of doing a REALLY good Plan A.

Fear does not help you. Thinking you can PREVENT him from doing anything does not help you. Accepting that the only person you control is you, and honestly figuring out what you want to do with that control...well, that's what you can do to help yourself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But I know I can't control him and it is not healthy for me to stop doing things I like because I'm afraid of what he's going to do. I need to become the strong person I was when WS met me.

I'm beginning to recognize that if we are to reconcile and be married forever, I *need* to get my anger under control. I need to find another way to communicate with WS. This is the only way we can have the M we both want.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I cannot tell you this with enough joy in my heart...this is just fantastic!!! You have it exactly right. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So then why did I write everything above? Telling you what you already know?

Because it still gives you an outsider's perspective of your thinking. Because I never know which little detail or suggestion may give you some optimism to carry on despite all the setbacks, despite all the crap they dish out in the fog...what technique will help you to keep your main goal in front of you...what can give you hope that you will feel better. Because you will feel better.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> For MOP: I can see one benefit for detaching...WS can't think straight with two women clamoring for what they need. If WS can find peace somewhere, perhaps they can start moving forward on their recovery as well. Surprisingly, my need for a decision from WS may have only enabled his fence-sitting.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This too is absolutely correct! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You have it down pat...great, great insight here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Good advice for MOP who is struggling with her own Plan B decision.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's much easier for me to write down how I feel rather than say it. On the other hand, he could talk for hours about love and life. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So try to talk with him. Try to meet his ENs whenever possible so that he'll miss that in Plan B. If it helps, write down stuff ahead of time so that you'll be comfortable talking about it with him later. Then have a long and interesting discussion over a romantic dinner. Gaze into his eyes. Seduce him with your mind.

Do you love this guy? If so, show him you do! Odd as it seems, as counter-intuitive as it seems, cut him free AND show him you love him.

The bonus is that you too will feel free and will start to heal. I think you may already be healing? You sound better. You sound clearer.

Don't worry about setbacks either. This is a road and it can be bumpy, is expected to be bumpy just like life.

I am thrilled to hear that things are calmer for you. I expect things will improve as a result. Regardless of what happens with your H right now.

Best of luck...awed

Wow, alot happened here over the weekend. Don't worry, free, I don't mind the hijack. We are in similar places and we need all the advice we can get!

I'm so glad that awed is passing along recovery info as well. WS just said last night that he wants more fun in our life. He actually liked when I joked about his A. I really have to take this to heart, because I'm a very practical person who has a one track mind. If I have task, I just concentrate on that until done and I go on to the next task. No room for fun there.

I think I will take a page from your recovery and start reading everything I can on saving a marriage. I only have SAA and another book. I think I will pick up HNHN, too.

Wow, I love how you used that phrase, "Do you want to be right or do you want to be married?" Powerful. I think I still want to be right, but I will work on implementing this in my own life.

Ah, I get the detaching from 'his' emotions idea. Yes, my therapist does worry about my detaching from my emotions. I guess I didn't make it clear to her. I'm sure she would agree with you as well.

Oh my, if I responded to one of his 'thank yous' with an "it's okay sweetie, it's easy to do nice things for you" and ruffle his hair, he would die from happiness. I've never done anything like this and that's where alot of our problems are. I don't know how to make him feel good or appreciated. I might need some of those lessons as well.

I will tell you how the tamale situation turned out. My independence is an issue, because before meeting WS, I was very independent, but he prefers us spending most of our time together and he doesn't want to see my family every two seconds (there's a reason he moved 400 miles away from his). Well, it got to be such a pain to do anything with my family that I just stopped doing the stuff that *I* enjoy. Making tamales is one of them. So I was going whether he liked it or not. I need to get back to seeing my friends and family. Not all the time like before, but I need to find a balance. Well, sure enough, WS spent the day with OW. They were supposed to be looking for an apartment. As usual, he didn't find one and I don't even think he looked that hard. I called him a couple of times to see how things were going -- no LBs. And that was it. We ended up getting home about the same time.

I need to use my words more. I need to specifically say, "I'm going to my mom's and I'd love it if you'd joined us, etc." I don't do that. I just declare what I'm doing and figure he'll decide what he wants to do.

Thank you so much for your encouragement awed. Miraculously, WS is planning to end the A today, but I know this is only the beginning of our recovery. I'm sure I will need to read your words over and over again over the next few months.

Hey...if I spend a million hours posting 550 pages of material/stories/sayings and it helps a tiny bit...well I am just thrilled to hear it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Okay...here goes repetition for you. Make him die of happiness... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...overwhelm and confuse him with how different life with you can be...that's fun and I suspect (now JL would wink big-time right here) that you might be quite surprised at the results!

On a serious note, you've chosen to be married...to remain with an unfaithful H...I'm guessing in part because you think you've made mistakes too?

When I got furious thinking of the vows he'd broken, I stepped back just one step and thought about the vows I'd broken. I thought about how I'd broken my promise to LOVE, HONOUR and CHERISH him. I thought about how lonely it must have felt to him to be UNLOVED, NOT HONOURED (ie. LBed)and certainly NOT CHERISHED.

Does that help? Give you motivation?

One thing about recovery is that is has to be about both of you. Both forgive, both move on, both commit, both make mistakes, both forgive again, both try harder...you get the drift. It can't keep on being one-sided forever (although it will still not change in the short run...it is still up to you right now).

Focussing on both of you changing gives him security that he's not in for a life sentence. It will also allow you to set your FIRM boundaries with great love. He will know you forgave him but that he needs to step up to the plate. And that that turns out to be a VERY good thing for him!

There will be bumps, many bumps yet...prepare for them and meet them calmly saying to yourself, "I knew this was coming and I will survive". Remember to walk away if you need to compose yourself. And post here rather than LB your H. Never LB again...right?

On a personal note, you sound great...you sound so much better than when I first read your postings quite a long time ago. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Again, I'm not normally here a lot but if you have any questions (freetobe, MOP...this goes for you too), feel free to e-mail me at awed18@yahoo.ca and I'll help if I can.

My H and I have had a strangely fast recovery so far...I was even scratching my head this weekend because when I think of the horrible triggers, I can't even muster up a good hrumph any more! Let alone any sadness or resentment. And yet people said over and over that it takes a long time to get over the triggers.

So here's my parting shot for today: I think if you work really hard on your own recovery (ie. emotionally detaching, starting to see things from his perspective, making positive external changes, having fun, enjoying life), it makes it easier for YOU during your marital recovery.

As rh says though...this is only my 2cents. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

awed