RR,

I just read your last post, and I understand so much of what you are saying from first-hand experience. My WH also professed Christ, though a few more years ago than yours did. However, he's not done anything with it either. He seems to pick and choose what he wants to believe, and for me that has been very difficult through all this. I want to believe that deep down, he really is trusting Christ for his salvation and that God will work to soften his heart, too. I just don't know where he stands.

Also, I have been a Christian since I was 21, but was fairly weak and non-committed until just a few years ago. The 9/11 incidents really brought me around to what was important in my life. I've done much better, but still tend to let life get in the way of my Bible reading, prayer, etc., and then it's easy to fall away. If anything good can be said about WH's A is that it has also forced me to depend on God and not so much on others, and it's brought me closer to him again. I also have a very quick temper, and just 5 years ago, would have done a major number on both my WH and the OW. I still have lashed out, but just find in general that I am more calm and am able to overlook more or not let it upset me than I would have in the past. How? Only by God's grace.

He is allowing all this to happen to us for a reason, and I'm sure spiritual growth is a big part of it.

LL

LH, LL, so glad we are all here together and in the same plan, God's plan that is <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> much love to you both.

oops, double post, was having computer problems.

<small>[ May 05, 2004, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: roughroad ]</small>

Hi, friends. I was psoting in Momto3boy's thread: Pictures from SF. B/c I was talking Titleist. He is really helpful. You can find Wh's EN over there.

After I told him what happened on Sat. and last night's lesson, Dr. harley gave me this reply:

lostnhurt: The POJA, along with everything else I presented in the MBW, is a reminder to be thoughtful, especially to the one we promised to cherish for life. A bad marriage is caused by nothing more than the thoughtlessness of one or both spouses. If we could all simply care for each other the way we would want to be cared for ourselves, all our marriages would be successful.

I'm afraid that your husband's affair may just be the tip of the iceberg when it comes to his thoughtlessness, and while the seminar offers him a chance to take a different path, he may find that turning away from a wasted lifetime of thoughtlessness is too difficult for him to achieve.

Years from now your husband will look back at this week as a decisive moment in his life. He will have either decided to change the course of his life, and have become a man that both you and others can admire, or he will continue on the path he's taken, and end up wasting the life God's given him. Time will tell what course he chooses, but at least he has taken the first step to discover the path that leads to marital recovery. The next step is to walk on that path.


He is so RIGHT about this M. Just like SH said, A is just a symptom of a bad M. I really think that it is the cause. It brought back so much bad memory on how treated me. I feel so sad and angry now. Like NY, I don't know whether I want to take him back any more.

Yikes everybody, this is supposed to be marriage builders. Now we're all thinking about whether we want WS or not. Hmmm, must be something in the air.

Believer, you know that our mood is in the rollercoster now. WH is disappearing again. If you know what he did Saturday, being thoughtless, you would understand why Dr. Harley said that. The bad feeling haunted me again, after reading Harley's reply, it turned to angry. I don't know how I feel now, just numb.

This was I posted earlier in another thread.

Talk about the top EN, he listed in this order, from top down.

1. An attractive spouse, comment: it is the taste
2. Conversation, no comment
3.Recreational comp. comment: she doesn't know what I need the most.
4.Financial support. comment: I don't have any problem for her for financial support. however, if she insiste to work, she must do a good job.
5.Domestics support. Comment: I have no need for domestic support. I believe that the domestic support should be shared. I do share indeed.
6. Admiration. Evaluation is I am extremely satisfied. Comment: Now it seems she is starting doing it. I just don't know how long it will last.
7.Affection. Comment: never happened. Don't get used to.
8. SF. comment: too late.
9.family commitment. I get the highest score in this one and he said he is extremely satisfied. No comment.
10. Honesty and openess. comment: I like to share the future plan.


Do I believe him? I think SF should be #1. I asked him about it. He said he had suffered too long, he doesn't need it now. It is too late.

About the physical attraction, he said that I had no taste. he's been critizing been all along. he said that I did not decorate the house good enough, I didn't dress right. he wants me to wear long hair, but I had it short. Why can he decorate the house? Why doesn't he help me or give opinion how I dress. I was driven nuts.

Did you see the financial part? I've been working two jobs. I made more than him last year. He said that I have to do a good job, I don't know what he means.

He refused to do anything with me. In fact, as I predicted, I called him and he told me he is not coming home tonight. B/c I am home. He told me he would go out to be with his "friends" to the bar. Which friend? OW? I don't know. he never answer the phone either when he was out. That is my biggest need, openness and honesty. He said he wasnt to share futrue plan with me, what kind, a D? If I didn't call him, he would just vanish. I feel bad again. T, you know why I am so frustrated now.

I do agree with Believer and all about not being sure we want our WS's back. I feel the same way when I think back on how I have really been treated for the last 19 years and how others have commented on how selfish my H has always been. But maybe it is something in the air? I did notice it was a full moon last night. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

LNH,

I admit I would have been angry and/or hurt at some of the EN comments, too, but count yourself lucky in that at least your WH has filled it out. Mine refused a long time ago and when I recently asked him what some of his top needs were, he told me he doesn't know--that he's just not that deep. So I have nothing to go on.

As for taste, I thought your house looked very nice in the pictures. But if he doesn't like it, somehow you will have to get his input on decorating. I don't know how. My WH doesn't care at all. And as for personal taste, I thought you looked fine, but maybe go to a mall or something with him and as you walk past the store fronts, ask him if he sees anything that he likes?

In general, I'm guessing he doesn't want to give you high ratings in any area because if he does, then he will have a problem justifying his reason for having an A.

As for SF, it must be higher than #9?? I smiled at your "4 times" comment. I can say in 23 years together, we've never done it over 3 times in a day and that is RARE! Three times in a month was rare for us!

I think he's stuck in that same dense fog that they're all in. What does SH say about eventually needing to do a Plan B if WH doesn't come around?

I've lost enough love (and just like they said - when it happens, it happens very quickly!) that I should be in Plan B now. I really don't think I care if WH comes back to me. Sure, I'd miss him. But it's actually quite calm with him not around. I am holding out for Plan B until the end of May because of all our obligations this month, but it's very hard to do any good Plan A at this point. I am trying.

You are very strong. As you are able to detach from your WH a little bit (which it sounds like you are now doing), it does get less painful. I never thought I'd be saying that even 2 months ago, but I am and it's the truth. I have my appetite back and although I am lonely, I don't feel all that bad most days.

Hang in there. Keep praying for strength and guidance.

LL

Dr harley said i should go to Plan B soon.

I feel so sad now. Just sad.

lostnhurt -

Well I don't think you did too bad on his EN questionnaire. Now let's turn it around.

Him -

1. An attractive spouse, comment: don't know,
haven't seen him.
2. Conversation, comment: He's not doing too well.
3.Recreational comp. comment: He doesn't do with you.
4.Financial support. comment: OK
5.Domestics support. Comment: He helps sometimes.
6. Admiration. Evaluation is I am extremely satisfied. Comment: He does not seem to admire you.
7.Affection. Comment: None
8. SF. comment: 4 times since A
9.family commitment. He's not too committed.
10. Honesty and openess. comment: He's not too honest, not too open.

lostnhurt-

Since he has told you how to improve (again), you can work on that. He wants long hair, and you can grow it long, but then he might complain because it is black.

You can buy new clothes, but they may be too red.

So he has a beautiful, brilliant, wife, who keeps the house nice, cooks for him, is a good mother, a great provider financially, a kind, loving person, is understanding, has redecorated the bedroom (even though the spread was too red), has put up with his faults, wants him back even though he has lied, been cruel, and unfaithful.

Still he wants more. Sweetie, I think there is something wrong with HIM. He is temporarily insane. I am still very hopeful for your situation. You are still very new in this, give it more time.

Of course there is a lot of things wrong with him, but his mom thought I was wrong, his dear son is always right.

I just sent you couple family pictures. Tell me whether I am uglier than him.

LnH -

I got your email with the pictures, but could not open them. Please send again.

I just sent again.

An almost sleepless night. Wh disappeared again without trace. I thought I had dealt with it better, but now my anxiety is back. I couldn't fall asleep before taking an Xenax. I don't know how to deal with this anymore.

Tonight supposed to be another lesson time, will he do it? Will he be here? If he keep disappearing like this, what is the point of going through the lesson? I am so fed up, frustrated, disappointed, and sad.

Cherished, haven't seen you for a while. How are you doing? Miss you and prayers for you.

Hi, my friends. I had started a new thread in
G II called Soon to be in Plan B. Please visit there.

Lostnhurt,
I have been following your thread. I thought that the MBW was unlikely to be the turning point for your H. For whatever reason, you accomodated his thoughtless behavior. The affair was "the straw that broke the camel's back", not an addiction which developed due to lack of self-protection against developing a love relationship with another woman (something that I think may have been the case with dadto3boys).

I'll give you something to consider from my own story. When the A came to light, I was close to nervous breakdown. I told my family about not just the A but also that he had broken my arm four months previously and that he had been physically abusive during most of our M. That was a shock to my family and somewhat to his. They took the position of "You need to do the Christian thing and forgive him", and my family took the position of "Throw the bum out."

A very wise friend of mine told me at the time to go into a long-term separation and plan for it to be permanent. I knew that I contributed to problems in the M, so I was unwilling to do that.

BIG mistake. As long as he was in my company, he could blame me for his behavior. He didn't have to face his own behavior.

I did throw him out of the house for two months, but it was hardly a separation. He would come back home to cut his hair. I wasn't willing to give him up. What I really wasn't willing to do was FACE THE REALITY that his choices are his choices and not mine. As long as I wasn't facing that reality, he didn't have to face that reality either.

That went on and on from May 4, 2002 (D-day) until December 9, 2003 when I sat him down and said I was ending MC but we could try the MB program. I do have a thread in the private forum which is long and to which Harley basically says to follow the program of 15 hours per week together. Believe it or not, my H is starting to meet my EN of affection but only because his alternative is that I will file for D.

You know what? You aren't in the M for financial reasons. You can force your H to support his children. You are in this M to get your ENs met and to meet those of your H. You tolerated thoughtless behavior for years and now he has done the ultimate thoughtless thing of having an A. If you let him know, gently, kindly, that you are willing to go through the MB program of recovery with him and he makes the choice not to, then your Plan A may be interpreted by him as your willingness to tolerate his utter disregard for the impact of his choices on you and your children. The MBW is a decision point for him. It sounds like he is trying to it just a diversion.

I wish I could save you and your children the pain that I went through for more than 18 months as I tried to influence his behavior. IMHO, the most influential thing you can do is to make it clear that his behavior is intolerable, and the way to do that is to go to Plan B.

After what you've already been through, I wouldn't give him even a few weeks! You've had the MBW. He's disappearing. It's sad to face. It's hard to face. You can let him know that you are willing to have him back if he is willing to go through this program of recovery, and that's it.

Do you really want to continue in your M as it is? If not, Plan B.

I don't think I could have gotten through to myself in the state I was in in May, 2002, so I don't expect to get through to you. Harley is right.

I will hold out this to you in hope. I gained 60 lbs. between when Tom and I were dating and last month, 40 of them gained in the two years since 1/3/02 when the A still wasn't exposed but I said "I want you to care about me more than Sophia" and he said "If it wasn't for the kids, I'd have been long gone.

Well, I have lost 10 of those pounds. Do you know why? I was starved for affection, and food was a poor substitute for what he gave to this other woman but didn't give to me after we were M. He is really having a hard time with being affectionate. He has no problem with sex but finds something as affectionate as French kissing to be inappropriate because of the lack of connection between us. Nevertheless, he is starting to be affectionate, I am starting to enjoy it, and my weight is starting to drop. I even felt a fleeting moment of love -- that in-love feeling that I haven't felt since the month we were M.

Follow Harley's advice. If you persist in Plan A, he will persist in thinking he can get away with thoughtless behavior. Plan B protects you. He and he alone will make the decision to go through MW program with you. By going to Plan B, you are making it clear that your old M is dead. You are open to a new M when your needs are met.

Cherished

<small>[ May 06, 2004, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

Chrished,

You are so right. I will talk to SH tomorrow to see what the concrete steps are. I don't want to go through the legal steps, just let him out of the house. I don't want to see him anymore.

But i also have to talk to him to let him know about these thoughtless behavior. I tolerated to him for too long so he was doing it effortless. It becoame his habits and normal thought process. I have to make clear my position and tell him what is the condition to be back together. But he wants an D anyway, let him have it.