that link didn't work - it went to a place selling domain names.

Faith,
You somehow have hijacked my thread! Just kidding, thanks for your all of your support!

Let me clarify my situation, as I think there may be some confusion. Her first A was an EA/PA, that I found out about in Jan. 03. I found this site then and we worked through some stuff. She was pretty quick to admit, we did all the plan A stuff, admission, NC, etc and did the emotional needs stuff. We figured it fixed and never went back to it. We moved on, but I noticed that she was beginning to change in August/September 2003. We tugged back & forth trying to figure it out on our own. I had a strange feeling that someone else was in her life, as a 'very good friend', I guess. She moved to her mom's house in Jan 04. She admitted to her mom that she had a 'friend' and someone that she would like to date if she had the opportunity. This is a different individual from the first A. So, that being said, we haved lived apart for about 6-8 weeks in one form or another. Is it too late to begin plan A? Please advise.....

...and all you MBers who have helped thank you so much! It has been difficult sometimes getting support from those who haven't experienced this. You guys are the best.

Ethan,
Sorry about hijacking your post! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
First of all, I was wondering what precipitated her moving out - what were her reasons?
Also, like I said before, my WH denied having any inappropriate feelings for OW for 7 months and then it took fight after fight plus a couple counseling sessions until he finally admitted it. The sad thing is that his EA was very much one-sided, but even though it was/is mostly in his head, it was just as damaging. I am just thinking if your WW has admitted thinking about wanting to date this guy, that there are probably a lot stronger feelings she is not admitting. Do you think this guy could have had an impact on her moving out?
Another thing is, I see that your WW was only 16 when you guys first got together. I am sure that she is going through the whole, "what have I missed out on?" thing. I know I have had those thoughts, having been with WH since I was 17, I have just never let them linger long enough to cause trouble.
I think that a lot of times, people who start out life so young end up going through a mid-life-like crisis around this age. I've heard it called a quarter-life crisis. That's a pretty good description of what my WH is going through.
Unfortunately, I don't have a very good answer about plan A. Like I said before, I think you should judge that based on what kind of requests she is making of you and how she responds when you try to meet her ENs.
How do you think she would respond to you saying something like, "you know I want our marriage to work, and you know I love you. But I cannot continue to sit around with my life on hold while you do as you please, with no direction. I need you to make a decision as to whether you want to commit yourself to working on our marriage pro-actively or not. I realize that I cannot force you to choose our marriage or to choose to love me, so I am releasing you to make that decision and I am willing to accept whatever it is." I bet that she has probably never felt like a real adult who is completely able to make her own decisions, and that may be part of what she is doing right now. Maybe once she realizes she is free to make her own choice without you trying to sway her, she will be more free to make the right choice. Maybe she will stop running if she has nothing to run from.
I don't feel like I'm being much help, but you can talk to me anytime.

What precipitated her moving out.....hmmm. We were having tons of sleepless nights, trying to figure out what was going on between us. She thought that maybe it was best that we spent some time apart. The first couple weeks, she was fairly responsible, by all accounts, & at times she really seemed like she wanted to be back together. She started going out with a group of friends that included this person, and she became less and less responsive to me. This is when she began partying a lot. The 'telltale' moment was Valentine's weekend. That Friday, she was supposed to go watch a friend sing, she no showed. On Saturday, I sent roses to no response from her. She was supposed to go watch our friend sing again that night. No-showed again. She had told her mom she was sleeping at the singing friend's home. She didn't. She then admitted that she slept on the couch at the OM's house.... That is when communication really broke down between us. She still hasn't admitted any feelings for anyone, and this is all about her doing what she wants and not having to tell anyone what she's doing, etc. I have read enough MB stuff to see what is truly going on here. I still want to do Plan A, but I'm not sure she will admit any EA/PA, and even if she does, I would not bet a dime that she would be willing to NC this person to work on our M. I'm hoping one of the vets can help, but if she doesn't admit to anything, how do I plan A if we are living separately? I know that I will see this through until the end, but it is hard to find the appropriate direction to take at this point....

After going back ans re-reading Plan A and B, it seems to me that, at this point you should be in Plan B. I say this because
1. she will not admit the EA or PA
2. you are already separated
3. she is a cake eater

I don't think Plan A is a viable option for you right now, as you've been saying, how could you do it considering the circumstances? I think you will just be chasing your tail.
Then again, I could be wrong. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

We are getting together Saturday to 'talk.' I guess about finances and the like. She said that she 'has some things that she wants to say.' I feel that she is going to tell me that she wants to get a divorce. She has been steamrolling towards this without looking back. If she does how should I respond? Is there anyway that I can slow her down so we can work on this? Everyone has been telling her that she is making a mistake, and she's not listening....... Any advice?

Well, I don't know how apprpriate it is for me to tell this story - I wish the person could tell you themselves. But you're situations are so similar, I just have to convey it. There was another member of this board who's wife left and after a month came to him with signed divorce papers. He made the decision not to sign, but rather to make her file for a contested divorce which is much more drawn-out. This bought him time. During that time, she agreed to hold off on the process. A couple months later, her did the 180. He told her he was moving on with or without her and it was up to her to decide if she wanted to work on their marriage. Within a couple days, she decided she wanted to work on their marriage. Within a week, they were making plans to move back in togeher.
The point of this story is, if you want to buy time and you think it could help, don't sign anything, make her go the contested route. The down side of that is you could just be prolonging the inevitable and sending yourself on another emotional roller coaster. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
I wish I had better advice for you. If you go the contested route that may at least give you some time to 180 ans see where that takes you.
Keep us updated on what happens. Good luck.

That's what's crazy. She is not slowing down at all. I just don't know if the Plan B/180 principles will be enough to make a dent in her. I also feel that she will get upset if I don't agree to the divorce immediately. I would also like to see what her reason for divorce is. Irreconcilible differences? Did we try to reconcile them? No. It's one of those situations where she will only listen to those that tell her what she wants to hear.......

Oh yeah, that's my WH, and probably most of them - only listening to those who tell them what they want to hear...it's frustrating!
Unfortunately, the irreconcilable differences thing is such a crock - they should just call it "changed my mind" or something! You don't know how she'll respond to the 180, but you have nothing to lose at this point. Try not to get too worked up, it's possible that she isn't going to tell you she wants a divorce. Try to relax a little. Haha - I know, easier said than done! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jazzey,
You have hit it on the head. I work full-time in some higher stress positions. She has done the work/school thing for the longest time, and I always told her that something had to give. It did!

We did the emotional needs stuff after her first A in 01/03. We never addressed it again. That was a huge mistake. Both of us let the other's needs slip. I see clearly that we let life get in the way of us. She sees it as this life not being what she wants. I know that is the 'fog'.

Her family and all the friends that she has had for years all tell her the same thing, to try to make it work. I believe it is only her new party friends that may tell her anything different.

I am prepared to do Plan A, but how do I do that when we don't live under the same roof and she, by all accounts, wants very little to do with me.

Yes, she is crashing and it is sad and hard for me and everyone around her to watch. I went by our house yesterday and she had taken down all the wedding pictures. I was upset, but I am not going to give her a hard time. I think I'm going to try and get her 'old' friends to hang in there as long as they can. There are a lot of things that are very difficult decisions for me. I don't know if I should minimize financial support for her, while she is living at our house. It would make her face her responsibilities sooner, but I don't know if she would resent me for it. (Although I feel she resents me for a lot of things right now.) We don't see each other much. I don't know if I should try to schedule things for us to do together, or not. I don't know if I should offer to move back into the house, so I would feel better about giving more financial support, and maybe staying in separate rooms, letting her go where she wants and the like. That way I could fill as many emotional needs as possible. I have a lot of stuff like that I'm struggling with.

You could try to move back in, although my guess is that she would not react positively to that suggestion, and she would probably continue to not allow you to meet her ENs. I feel that if you were to do that you would be helping her to become even more of what Harley calls a "cake-eater". She has not really had to deal with the reality of the consequences of her actions yet. She is still living in your home, you are still supporting her financially, and you have been trying to meet what ENs she will allow. She is in a "having her cake and eating it too" situation. What is her pressing motivation to change or make any hard decisions?
On the other hand, you could move back in, it is YOUR house!! and if she doesen't like it, she could move out and be an adult - find her own place, etc. BUT if you move back in, I wuold not suggest allowing her to do whatever she pleases, including continuing whatever EA/PA she's got going. Who knows how long that would drag out - you living together but separate, with her having little to no consequences for her actions or motivation to change them. It seems a little too convenient to me - you would be allowing the viscious cycle to continue - her getting her needs met however or by whomever she finds it appealing to her at the time.
If you move back in and lay down ground rules, then it could be a good thing. She may decide to move out and have to face the music. I am very sure that she will come to a fork in the road MUCH sooner that way. Plus, it will empower you and give you back the "upper hand". I am telling you, from a woman's perspective, we don't want a pushover or a door mat. Part of what you should be doing is making yourself more attractive to her. I promise you that although pacifying her may seem to please her at first, deep down she will only disrespect you more (which is a main motivator in WS behavior in the first place). She is like a little kid who rebels, but actually WANTS boundaries (though she doesen't recognize that).
I know people keep saying Plan A, Plan A, Plan A!
But after all this time, you still do not have any idea how to do a good plan A. I would love to tell you Plan A and how to do it. I think the reason you still don't know is because it's not really right for your situation right now. I think you are past the point of ending the affair/WS behavior by meeting her ENs.
Sorry, I know this isn't the easiest thing to hear, and I also know I am by no means a vet here. It's just my 2 cents after following this thread for a couple days and relating it to my situation and my knowledge of Harley concepts.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

That is what's driving me crazy. People continue to advise Plan A. But I haven't confronted her about this possible A. And she probably wouldn't admit it anyway. So how do I proceed? Straight to Plan B? I have already instituted some of the 180 principles, but it's mostly the self-improvement stuff, not the no contact stuff. I'm hoping to find what my best course of action. I did some LB'ing the first month we were apart, and now I feel like I need to repair some of that... I don't know.

Your first course of action should be to expose the A. That should get the ball rolling... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Tell me more about the suspected A. How much info do you have, what caused your suspicions, etc. This is the co-worker, Vanentine's Day guy right?

Here's what I "know":

She worked with him for about 4 months.

She transferred to a different location within the same company, certainly continued email contact, probably began to miss him a little bit.

Goes out with him (and others, presumably) to party until all hours. This began after to she went to stay at her Mom's house, 01/04.

Has spent at least 2 nights at his house, 'on the couch' of course, including Valentine's Day. (I sent her flowers, she didn't respond. Left me a box of chocolates with the price tag still on them and a card, which said to the effect "It must feel good to know so many people care." Signed by her in lip-liner, b/c she didn't have a pen, and left on the doorstep presumably on her way back from wherever....) Supposedly, she stayed there those nights b/c she was too drunk to get home.

The only evidence I have is call records. But that is not exactly a smoking gun.

<small>[ February 26, 2004, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: thefurnitureman ]</small>

What are the call records like? Anything like my WH's 99 hours in 2 1/2 months? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Do you think she really slept on the couch? You need to let her know that sleeping at another man's house is not excused because she was drunk. That's why there are cabs and friends who could take her home.
Obviously, there's not much you can do to prove the affair if she continues to deny it, especially since you spend so little time with her. But don't let it go. My WH denied his EA for 7 months. He finally admitted it when he realized I was not going to buy into his excuses and lies. He admitted it without me ever confrontong him with "evidence".
The thing is, it's not all about an A anyway. She is in love with herself and her friends and her lifestyle. She needs to choose between your marriage and her self-centered ways.
It will be extremely helpful if youcan expose any affair, but you can't sit around waiting for her to incriminate herself or confess. It may never happen. The truth is, with the lifestyle she is leading, it is very unlikely that she has been faithful, or if she has, she probably won't be for long. If she gets that drunk that often, who knows what she has done! Marriage is about mutual accountability and respecting boundaries. Set those boundaries if you move back in, and don't back down. Exposing things lovingly does not mean condonong her behavior and enabling her self-destruct.
Here is an analogy for you:
Your best friend is a dentist. You go to him to have your teeth cleaned and he notices that you need a root canal. He doesen't want to cause you pain, and he knows you will be upset to find out. Should he just let it go, do what will make you happy in the present, but will cause you great pain in the long-run? Or does he break the bad news, and lovingly but firmly tell you that you must have this painful root canal for your own good? Would it be loving for him to NOT do the surgery? Sometimes the things that seem to cause the most pain up front are the things that are necessary for a healthy future.
Keep those eyes and ears open, and do what you need to (check phone records, e-mail, talk to friends, etc) to gain some more evidence. But take action to push her to her fork in the road in the meantime.

What are the call records like? Anything like my WH's 99 hours in 2 1/2 months? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Do you think she really slept on the couch? You need to let her know that sleeping at another man's house is not excused because she was drunk. That's why there are cabs and friends who could take her home.
Obviously, there's not much you can do to prove the affair if she continues to deny it, especially since you spend so little time with her. But don't let it go. My WH denied his EA for 7 months. He finally admitted it when he realized I was not going to buy into his excuses and lies. He admitted it without me ever confrontong him with "evidence".
The thing is, it's not all about an A anyway. She is in love with herself and her friends and her lifestyle. She needs to choose between your marriage and her self-centered ways.
It will be extremely helpful if youcan expose any affair, but you can't sit around waiting for her to incriminate herself or confess. It may never happen. The truth is, with the lifestyle she is leading, it is very unlikely that she has been faithful, or if she has, she probably won't be for long. If she gets that drunk that often, who knows what she has done! Marriage is about mutual accountability and respecting boundaries. Set those boundaries if you move back in, and don't back down. Exposing things lovingly does not mean condonong her behavior and enabling her self-destruct.
Here is an analogy for you:
Your best friend is a dentist. You go to him to have your teeth cleaned and he notices that you need a root canal. He doesen't want to cause you pain, and he knows you will be upset to find out. Should he just let it go, do what will make you happy in the present, but will cause you great pain in the long-run? Or does he break the bad news, and lovingly but firmly tell you that you must have this painful root canal for your own good? Would it be loving for him to NOT do the surgery? Sometimes the things that seem to cause the most pain up front are the things that are necessary for a healthy future.
Keep those eyes and ears open, and do what you need to (check phone records, e-mail, talk to friends, etc) to gain some more evidence. But take action to push her to her fork in the road in the meantime.