First, the background.
My wife and I met 8 years ago. I was 19, she was 16. We dated for 4+ years. We got engaged in early 2001, married in 10/2001. We have been best friends the entire time. Our relationship was often the envy of those around us. She has been going to school full time and working full time, for quite a while now. In early 2003, I found out the she had an A that was an off/on for most of 2002. I discovered it, confronted her and found this site as a great resource. We talked it out, thought we had fixed it, and 'moved on.' We did NOT go to counseling at that point and I deeply regret that decision now. Since early 2003, we bought a house, and I thought we would be settling down. Things had improved greatly between us. However, she became increasingly more distant towards the latter part of 2003. I feared that she was having an EA/PA with a different individual. We had many sleepless nights trying to figure it all out. In early January, she went to stay at her mom's house. We communicated quite a bit, and at times it seemed like she wanted to work things out. As time went by, she started going out, drinking heavily, sleeping God knows where. She has stated that she does not want to work things out and the last few times we have spoken, she has been very cold towards me. I now have enough credible information to be certain that she is having an EA and most likely a PA again. This past week, we switched roles. I am now staying with friends, and she is "alone" at our house. I am still willing to forgive and I know that we have the pieces to have a succesful marriage. Right now, she is running from everything and everyone she has known for years. (Friends, Family, me, etc.) She is partying excessively, to the point that I fear for her safety. She is performing poorly at school, work, and obviously in our marriage. Obviously, I am past the point of plan A, and I have moved to plan B. I have not written my letter, yet, but I am going to soon. I do want for us to get back together, but I don't know if she can see that is possible yet. The 'D' word has come up only briefly and never in direct discussion with each other. I do not believe in my filing because there is nothing between us that can't be worked out through counseling. She is just unwilling to budge from anything at this point.

So here are my questions:
- What should I expect to happen, once Plan B begins?

-Should I hold out hope that this will work out?

-Is it reasonable to think that she will crash eventually from all the partying, and once her money runs low? (Which, with her being in the house by itself, should go fairly quickly.)

-What should I include in my Plan B letter?

-Is it OK for me to begin to prepare for life without her, i.e. find my own place to live, separate insurance, things like that?

I thank you in advance for your all of your help and advice. If you have any questions or need clarification, please ask me.

Thanks,
Ethan

<small>[ February 24, 2004, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: thefurnitureman ]</small>

Hi Furnitureman,

I'm sorry for your situation.

So your wife is 24, you've been married 2 years, no kids, and she's had 1 possibly 2 affairs? No children?

I married young, at 19. It's rough and people change alot from their teens to twenties. What does she say about her behaviour? Does she think she's behaving like a married woman should, or what excuse does she give?

I dont think you go to plan B before doing a real good plan A first. Give us some more info on what SHE says the problem is. What does she say she wants to do?

Thanks and take care - Dru

I have yet to confront her regarding the current possible A. Our recent discussions have been less than constructive. She is very unresponsive to anything that anyone tells her that she doesn't want to hear. She says her current behavior is fine, and she is just 'having fun.' From all of the discussions that we have had, she says that she has not always been happy in our marriage, and that the problem is her and not me. She also says that she does not know what she wants. I am not sure that plan A is possible at this point. We have been living seperately for 6-8 weeks now. She has become increasingly irritable and distant and I don't know how responsive she would be to having an honest discussion. I fear that given a choice, she would choose to leave me, because facing the truth would be too hard.

Ethan - You should still be in Plan A. Read all about it here. Also read about the emotional needs. Most women stray because their emotional needs are not being met.

Stick with us, we will help you through this.

The crazy thing is that we've done this before. About this time last year. We did Plan A and it stopped. We went through the emotional needs stuff, but we didn't go to counseling and we didn't follow up on any of this. I guess she 'relapsed'. I can tell that the 'fog' is really thick right now, and I don't think that she would be open to discussion. Judging by what you read, do you believe that she would even face this?

Yes, you should start again in Plan A. And this time, please follow up with doing the work you need to do.

When I confronted her last year when this happened, she did not have much difficulty (some, but not much) admitting what was going on. How do I approach it if she does not want to tell me anything this time? Also, what if she does not want to cease contact with the OM, and doesn't want to begin addressing any of the problems in our marriage? How can I get her past that obstacle?

Well, I'm glad you did say "address the problems in our M." Because that was going to be my comment when you called her current behavior a "relapse."

Obviously, you both swept the issues that lead her to infidelity the first time under the carpet. I am not saying you made her have an A. That is 100% on her. I am saying that because you two did not take the time last year to address your R issues, you are back where you started from.

Which may be one reason she is more distant this time. She might be thinking, that if she comes back to make it work again, that her EN will not be met again, and does she want to continue this cycle? That might be what she is thinking.

I, personally, do not want to ever go through any of this again. I am so sorry that this is your second time.

So stick with the program this time! We'll get through this together. Post and vent. Post and vent. And ask those good questions, and wise people will be along to assist you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Amy

I still fear that she will not be open to working on it, even if I am apologetic about my mistakes. What should I do if she's not?

Plan A. Plan A. Plan A. Most of the WS here refuse to work on the M. My WH and I are in MT, and he refuses to work on our M.

And, if she is still having contact with OM, recovery is not possible yet.

Take heart. Read other posts. Get a feel for the fog, and what WS say and do while in it. Because they all say and do the same stuff, basically.

We are here for you. There is always hope.

"Never give up, never surrender!" Do you know what movie that is from??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Amy

We actually just had an interesting email discussion....


She hopes I'm not mistaking what she wants.

She says she wants to be friends, but not be married anymore....

She gets frustrated if I suggest talking about it or working on it, b/c she wants to be 'on her own.'

I just don't think she will budge from this....

After reading my story, does anyone else think that my W is exhibiting signs of the fog? Again, I have no concrete proof, just a bunch of things that add up. Where there's smoke.... there's fire. She has stated the entire time that 'the problem is her and not me' and things to that effect. It seems very much to me to be the FOG.......

Yes, she is definitely in the fog. I really relate to your story. Wh and I are 24 and 25, married at 18 and 19. WH exhibits similar behaviors and attitudes as your WW. I think it's possible (I am new to this) that she has continued relapsing because she knows that you will for all real intents and purposes, let it go, or that maybe she is using this behavior to force you into finally breaking and getting fed up with her. I think my WH has done both of those things. He knows it's wrong to divorce, so he figures he'll just keep acting out till I get equally as sick of things as he is.
As far as stopping the partying when her money runs low, unfortunately, that is doubtful. From what little experience I have had in that area, if she is a young attractive woman, she probably rarely buys her own drinks. The times that I have gone out, I have never had to buy a drink for myself, so my guess is that lack of money will have little affect on her partying ways...
The only thing that will change all that is for her to realize how empty it all is, and how little it is actually satisfying her.
As for what you should do, no more begging, apologizing, calling, asking about her social life, etc. I would say, yes, start your own social life, just be very careful - choose your company wisely. You are very vulnerable right now. It would be very easy for you to fall into your own fog.
Hope this helps some, like I said, I'm pretty new to this.

Faith,
Thanks for the help!
I am trying to figure out the best way to do a good Plan A. Here's why:

- We've been 'apart' since early January.
How can I fill her emotional needs when we're rarely together?

- I do not have concrete evidence of any EA/PA. Just a pretty solid idea, and some somewhat circumstantial evidence. (Co-Worker, they go out partying together, frequent contact.) How should I approach it if she says he is just a friend, since Plan A depends on admission and the willingness to seperate from the OM. How do I respond if she won't admit to anything and if she does, still won't break contact? How do I maintain an adequate Plan A?

I have the same questions you do! A lot of help I am!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
You are in a similar situation I am, and in my opinion, neither plan A or B is quite right for me. I think the 180 is very very applicable though. And I bought James Dobson's book "Love Must Be Tough" which was extremely helpful to me.
I had no concrete evidence of my WH's EA either (how can you, really?) except phone records. And to this day he denies it was a PA, though I don't know whether I believe him or not. I have gotten to the place that I really don't care that much if it was a PA, the EA was enough, I know that he would have turned it into a PA given the opportunity. From the things you said you do know, there is very little doubt she is having an EA. The evidence you have is about the best evidence you're probably ever going to get (besides an admission). It took 7 months for my WH to admit he was "in love" with our friend, from the time I first confronted him about it. It was making me feel crazy because he kept telling me I was crazy and making a big deal out of nothing, when in reality, my intuition was right all along!
I would recommend reading Love Must Be Tough and the 180. You can go to the Focus on the Family website and find excerpts from the LMBT book. I'll see if I can find the link for you.
The most important thing I think you can do right now is to STOP chasing her. Change your behavior drastically, and watch her squirm.
I will be seeing WH for the first time in over 2 weeks and for the first time since I sent him a letter basically saying that there would be no more tears, no more begging, no more apologies, etc. I have nothing left to give and no desire to give it, so if he ever wants me back, he will have to win me back and make me fall in love with him again. I don't know how much that lines up with Harley principles, but I guess you could say it was my combo of Harley and Dobson. He didn't respond to it as of yet, as I expected. It will be interesting to see if he will act/respond any differently. I only wish that I had done it sooner, as I wonder if now it will be too late. (For both of us - since he has pushed me so far I can't stand him anymore.)
Oops, sorry, I just noticed how much I was rambling about my own situation. Sometimes, I guess I feel that's the best I can do - be someone to relate to, since I am still smack dab in the middle of things myself. I can only guess what will work.
I believe that right now your wife is, in many ways, like a rebellious teenager. She views you as the one who is keeping her from having her freedom and space, and the more you chase after her, the more she runs and pulls away and becomes even more determined to do her own thing. I say let her have her space and her freedom, and the thrill will probably fade rather quickly when it's no longer "forbidden". Also, she will have nothing to run from or pull away from because you will not be holding on.
That's my take on it, for what it's worth!
It's hard, but be strong! (Talking to myself too!)

Here's the link:
http://www.family.org/married/youngcouples/90019167.cfm
hope that works.

oops, that didn't work. I'm not sure why.
If you want to read it, you can go to http://www.family.org
click on Husbands and Wives
then Hot Topics
then Divorce
then Hope for Families in Crisis

Faith,

You are very right. I read DObson's book. I am a little bit confused with His tough love and Plan A. But I am sort of doing both, and Penny's way too, rock the boat.

I was trembling. But now I feel peace. Maybe after praying. It is amazing.

Ethan,
I think whether you should try Plan A again is dependent on how your WW responds to you trying to meet her ENs. Foe me it got to the point that the very act of trying to meet WH's ENs was a LB. Meeting his ENs right now consists of me giving him the space he has asked for over and over again for months. If that is your wife's one major request and it seems to make her pull away further when you try to meet her ENs then I say scrap plan A and go with the Tough Love concepts. The again, I could be wrong. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Out of curiosity, what is Penny's?

I'm glad you have calmed down. It has been such a relief for me, since I decided to let go and accept whatever happens, not to be so emotional all the time. I was so tired of crying and panicking...It's really hard to make wise decisions on how to act towards your WS when your emotions are running so high. I know I ended up making a lot of mistakes that way.

Penny's www.marriagecentral.com. Check it out. She is here as Cerri.