Unfortunately, feelings of love will come and go throughout any marriage, so not feeling love for her isn't the best thing to judge whether you should continue working on things. That's something I have learned, that love isn't about feelings. Often, it's in spite of feelings. I don't feel love for my WH right now, but I know I do love him.
You know, I am going to be honest here, and if anyone else reads this, I will probably get flogged to death. I can spit out a pre-fab answer from this website - which would go something like this: Don't take to heart anything negative your WW says. It's all fog talk. Just keep on "Plan A"ing her. Show her how you can meet her ENs, don't LB. Giving an ultimatim or asking her to make a choice is a LB.
Then I can tell you what tough love would do. Talk about the affairs. Tell her you love her very much and are willing to completely forgive her and rebuild a strong and fulfilling marriage with her. But that will take her cooperation and it will take some tough decisions on her part. You know about the infidelity and you are not going to condone that in your marriage. She can either choose her current behavior or she can choose a future with you. Then you tell her that you want to move back into your home and that if she chooses the first option, then she can leave. If she chooses the second, then it's time to start a plan to rebuild. That could also be the start of a Plan B.
It just depends on what you are willing to put up with. If you are willing to put up with an indefinite period of time in which you are married but she is having sex with other men, OK, then Plan A away. And that's great, some people are willing to do that and it works out. Although, I believe there could be some negative consequences of that as well.
I think you are to the point of Plan B, if she refuses stop her current lifestyle/behavior.
But, that's just me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I'm sure a lot of people would disagree with me.

For clarification, this is what I think is going on with your wife, as shown by what you said she will say.
The tighter you hold on to her, the more she struggles to get away, to "free" herself. She expects you to hold on to her, she expects you to say all the things you've been saying.
She doesen't want to face it because she KNOWS she has to make a choice, and she knows if she doesen't choose you she will be losing something great. She also doesen't want to face the consequences of her actions.
Right now, she feels the one thing she can't have is "freedom" and independence. She feels tied down to you. And the more you try to hold onto her, the more desperate she becomes.
That's why I think it's possible that Plan A may actually be self-defeating for you right now.

Well, I know that I can do Plan A as long as she allows me to meet her ENs. She is not really allowing me to do that. On the other hand, I've also seen everyone say that I need to do a good Plan A and give it time before going to Plan B. I haven't done (or barely had the opportunity)to do the Plan A stuff. I don't want to march straight into to Plan B, but she is very cold, unreceptive and pretty much mean lately. Faith, sometimes I think it's just me and you on this thread...... I don't want to barge into plan B, BUT... if Plan A is not an option.... I feel that if I went Plan B, I would be out of sight, out of mind to her.......

Ethan, that is exactly the fear everyone has going into Plan B. It is the same fear everyone has when they are faced with practicing tough love (have you read that book, btw?).
You are so right, it does take time. It won't happen over night. And if she will let you meet any of her needs (besides finances) then, by all means, do a good plan A and give it some time.
It's OK, you are not ready to accept the possibility of your marriage ending, so don't go there yet. But you have got to come to a point (with whatever plans or principles you use) that you LET GO, and realize you cannot make her see the light, she has to see it on her own. If you don't let go and work on getting to the point where you can accept and are prepared for whatever she decides, you are only going to end up in emotional turmoil. Once you let go, you can still do whatever you need to do (and better because you will be more objective), you will be healthier emotionally, mentally and physically.

It took me forever (it seemed - actually a year) to realize this. I met ENs till I was blue in the face, and I cried (like the way you cry when someone died) almost everyday. It took me getting to the point where I had no self-respect, no dignity, no joy in life, no energy, nothing - to let go. I didn't even recognize who I had become. And my WH saw that and it made him pull away even more. I asked myself what was wrong with me? Why was I unworthy of his love? Because I was DOING so much for him, I felt like somehow I was responsible for him not responding. There must be something more, different, better I could do... There wasn't. The more I did, the more he withdrew.

I still want our family to be togther. I want my little girls to have their daddy. I want the person that I loved back. But, now, if that doesen't happen, I will be OK. Not only will I be OK, but I know I will find love again and it will be a million times better because of what I know now.

Anyway, I said all that to say that you have been going great - keep on loving her. Meet whatever ENs you can. If you continue to see no break in the ice, then move to Plan B. Please don't let yourself go through what I had to go through before I would let go. (And I don't mean let go as in divorce, just let go in your heart - be at peace with whatever happens because it'e beyond your control.)

haha, I think it is just us on this thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Feel free to e-mail me instead if you want.
roseandgrace@hotmail.com

Feel free to e-mail me instead if you want.
Not a good idea at all, ESPECIALLY when one or the other is hurting from infidelity. Best if it is kept in the open here on MB.

duh, you are right Chris. I of all people should know this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

For those just waiting for an update....

I confronted her about what I knew, she was very forthcoming with information, said that A lasted about six months, was over (although he apparently still calls looking for 'companionship') but didn't show a tremendous amount of remorse. I don't know what to read into that.

She still does not see herself as in a relationship with her current 'friend', and I don't know if she really believes that or not.

She is NOT even willing to consider any form of reconciliation.

I don't know what to make of any of this, really, or how I should proceed.

The sad part is that of the 2 1/2 years we've been married, she's been faithful for about 7 months total. It's like our marriage never had a chance.........

<small>[ March 01, 2004, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: thefurnitureman ]</small>

The only thing I can think of to say (besides I'm sorry) is that she is acting just like all the other WS. It's common for them to not show remorse.
That's pretty staggering...7 months out of 2 1/2 years...
Have you considered moving back into your house? I think that would be a good idea.

I am pretty shell shocked when I think about that number..... It doesn't give me a lot of hope right now.

I keep hearing that I should move back into the house. I know that if I do that, she will just get angrier with me. I'm not sure what I stand to gain by doing that.

I kinda think some tough love is in order, too. Not unkind, just firm. I think if she is already calling it quits, then you need to start doing the hard work of trying to heal yourself and move on. You will need this to happen regardless of the outcome of your marriage.

Plus, it seems like she has developed a pattern of behavior in the marriage that is totally unacceptable (and repeatedly devestating to you).

My thoughts are with you!

BS- me, 31
WH- 31
Married 9 years, together 12
Two kids, 9 and 4
10/03: H said he didn't love me anymore and I began Plan A
11/03: Discovered EA/PA
2/04: H moved out to "find" himself
and I began Plan B

Ethan,
You have to stop making decisions based on how she will react/what will make her mad. At this point, anything that doesen't allow her to continue this selfish pattern of behavior is going to make her mad! Will she be angry if you move back in? Yes!! Does averyone that has suggested you do that know that? Yes!!
You can't keep up like this - it's not healthy for you, and it is making your marriage situation WORSE.
It is wonderful that you still love her despite what she's done, that you are willing to forgive and move on, it really is. But you can do that without enabling her to continue this. You should be making it difficult for her to keep this up, right now you are making it pretty easy. When your parents set boundaries and gave you consequences for overstepping those boundaries, they still loved you, right? In fact, that showed they TRULY loved you, enough to risk you being mad at them for a while.
If doing the things people have suggested on this board make her mad and she then divorces you, nothing else you would have done would have saved your marriage. But, if she gets mad for a while, but eventually sees that you love her but you are a strong person who will stand up for yourself and set the boundaries necessary to have a healthy relationship in the future, then it was all worth it. Either way, I don't think you have much to lose at this point. Things are headed nowhere down a one way track right now. It's time start making some changes.

That is what I'm fighting so hard about. I am bashing my head against the wall trying to be kind to her. She is has been pretty mean lately. If I move back in, I am certain she will leave. I would imagine that she would stay with her mom, but I don't know. Is it better to try to continue with a Plan A approach, when she gives me zero opportunity to meet any ENs, or do I go to Plan B. I know Plan B is recommended when you begin to feel your love bank is almost empty. I don't feel that mine is..... Do you see my dilemma? I guess I am so blinded by my love for her....

Yes, I completely see your dilemma. What you are experiencing right now is desparation. And like I said before, you are trying to hold on tighter and tighter while she is struggling more and more to free herself.
The bottom line is that that you are making things worse right now. If you've ever listened to Dr. Phil, you'll recognize this - he always asks people, "How's that workin' for ya?" So, how is that working for you?
You have been "beating your head head against the wall" (which is a fitting description) going around and around the bottom of the mountain with the SAME things! You still don't have an answer.
Moving back in does not mean you have to start plan B. Even if she gets mad and moves out (which is likely), that doesen't mean you have to start Plan B. What it DOES do is show her that she is not in complete control, that you have some self-respect, and you know what? That may actually serve to make you more attractive to her. Right now she sees you as someone who will take whatever she dishes out. To her, that say pathetic, weak, scared... It shouldn't, it should say unconditional love. But not in their foggy minds. This is exactly what happened with me and my WH. He saw me as all those things. The more he dished out and the more I took the more he saw me that way, and the less attractive I was to him (and to myself!).
Part of the plans is to make yourself more attractive. Now, if a man views a woman that way, how much more would a woman view a MAN that way? Women want someone strong, firm, willing to take risks, secure with themselves, confident.
I wish I had an easy answer for you, but I don't. It's all hard! The hardest thing I've ever done is come to the realization that if I ever want even thechance of getting my husband back, first I must let him go.

Faith,
Thanks to you and others, today has been a pretty good day. I have realized that I have yet to actually stand up for myself.... I have presented my side of the argument, but haven't actually stood up yet. It is something I haven't felt in a while......

Thank You!

Ethan

I have realized that I have yet to actually stand up for myself
Keep in mind that this does not mean arguing/forcing your point with her.
An example is moving back in. Just do it.
Tell her because it is your hime with her and you are married and a husband belongs in the marital home.
Leave it at that. You don't need to "stand up for yourself" by trying to convince her.

Remember. Most wayward spouses have had a brainectomy and trying to convince them of something will not work. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Keep it simple. "This is what I am doing and this is why."

And when she says/screams/yells, "it's over!" you simply reply, "Oh. Well, I'm moving back in the house."

<small>[ March 02, 2004, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Chris,

Those were my thoughts exactly. I have no desire to argue with a zombie at this point. I do want to enjoy our home, and I think that will be an important part of my recovery from this.

Thanks,
Ethan

Yay, Ethan! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I am excited for you because even though there are many hard times yet to come, I believe you are taking a step in the right direction, and you are going to feel so much better.

I am going to post some stuff in a little bit from Love Must Be Tough that I think will be very helpful in reinforcing what we've all been telling you.

I can see you're feeling stronger already. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Chris gave great advice, as usual. Arguing with WS is totally pointless - I have come to realize that in my own life as well.

I feel that arguing and reasoning are done on my behalf. But I am happy in our home. (I'm also happy that my friends have graciously accepted me into thier home, but it's not the same!) I have had a great deal of happiness taken away from me already. I feel justified in reclaiming that portion of my happiness.

Good for you.