I think you are right on.

Just look at what he shows you with his actions.

Men are not famous for being in touch with our feelings, let alone verbalizing them.

What H would say about his feelings toward you, if you asked, really would not give you a true indicator of what is important.


How about:

"Is there any positive concept about me that you can get in touch with at this time?

Can you tell me a little about it?

What about when I ....

Let me know later, OK?"

Isn't that teaching Love? Just go once concept at a time. A concept a day, keeps the OW away.

Blessings

Whaler - This is long, grab a beer.

Yesterday I worked. My morning was great, talked to my co-worker (girl) (also very good friend) about how great things are going with H. I left to get lunch and BAM! Anxiety attack hits me like a truck about OW still in contact with my H.

I called my H before contacting her to explain to him my feelings about wanting to call her, that I feel its disrespectful for him to still have contact with OW he "fell in love" with. He replies very snotty "I don't know what to tell you. She's a friend of mine, call her if ya want". So I did....

I went up one side of her, and down the other. I can't get into exact of what I said. It's too long, I was vulgar and to the point. (My co-workers mouth was on the floor most of the time, hysterically laughing others from what I said. She said I handled myself VERY well and leveled the OW verbally) I told the OW if she wants me out of her life, then she needs to be out of my H's. I told her I have the 200 emails and I'm not quite sure of what I should do with them.

The OW really said some not so nice things about my H, says she wants nothing to do with him, he's ugly, he calls her, blah, blah.

My H isn't too happy that I told her off, says he's not going to tell me when and who he talks to anymore and still says they're such good friends even though I explained to him that she's no friend to talk so poorly of him. He says she didn't mean what she said.

H and I had long talk this am, he swears he'll never do it again, I'm not going to stop him from talking to OW, he loves me, he's been done with her for over a year, don't listen to her, blah blah blah.

My H has such a different way of thinking.

Sooo.. I explained to the OW and my H that the OW entered MY life and her and my H ALMOST destroyed what my kids and I know as a family. Now I asked the OW several times politely to please leave us alone, let us work on it, stop calling my H. She still feels free to do so. So being nice didn't work, I would love to kick her butt, but I'm beyond that, jail doesn't suit me well. She has suffered no consequenses to my next plan is to mail these repulsive, gross detailed emails to her job, every business in her town, and every person that shares her last name and anyone else I can think of.

What do ya think??

Dear M,

I can see it. I got some visual on that episode.

Before you disclose things to other people, you might check with an attorney, to be sure about your legal standing. I suspect disclosure is a gray area today, in most jurisdictions, and what could happen could possibly come back on you, but it is probably uncertain and unclear.

It happens with me, that just when I think things are going OK, and tell someone else, then things come up rocky for me.

If you have OW's E-mail address, you could maybe get her some action. Posting her E-mail address on bulletin boards and personal adds could get her something to keep her busy. Maybe you could get her permission to put adds on boards. I came accross a few, recently, swingersboard.com and chubbyswingers.com. There are a whole bunch of links.

I personally try to minimize my phone calls to old flames. Partly to avoid something getting started, adn partly out of respect to my wife.

Having a PI check up on her and your H when he is out of town, may be an option.

You may want to have a Plan B option conceptualized, so that you can make it run smoother than last time. You seem to have a pretty good Plan A going.

OW has been helpful to you, in understanding the situation in the past.

Some posters have expressed doubts as to whether H will ever really come around. I have been rooting for him. I suppose there is an endpoint.

Since H has been with other gals, it is not clear that dealing with this gal is the end of your difficulties. Is there some way to make H's indiscreet contacts his problem, rather than your problem? Basic Boundaries is that the caring partner should create the situation that the partner who is being irresponsible, has to deal with the problems of his/her irresponsiblities. How can this be structured for H?

Pawn the big-screen until PI gives a clear report?

Blessings

<small>[ July 07, 2004, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

Is there some way to make H's indiscreet contacts his problem, rather than your problem? Basic Boundaries is that the caring partner should create the situation that the partner who is being irresponsible, has to deal with the problems of his/her irresponsiblities. How can this be structured for H?

Whaler, before you even wrote that I had that in my mind but I am having difficult time with a solution.. The only solution that comes to my mind is I keep calling OW, or I could just ignore my H. But to ignore my H is not me, I have tried it and after a day of it I'm back to my smiling self because I forgot I was suppose to ignore him. Make sense? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I don't know,,I guess I need to give it more thought. I also keep trying to just keep my mouth shut (real hard one for me). My H is big on "you will not control me". So I am certain that the more I make it known that I don't want him talking to her, the more he's apt to do it out of spite. So is the option for me to be a doormat? I'm tired. I need sleep.

Dear M,

The objective of Boundaries is to reach agreements, instead of controlling by edict or proclomation.

If you are feeling like a doormat, then there is more work to be done.

One way to reach agreements is to trade one thing for something different. Can you come up with something creative to offer in trade for Reduced Contact? Even if H rejects your proposal, you will have brought the subject up constructively, for confrontation. Loving Confrontation is an objective in Boundaries Face to Fact, by Cloud. One new proposal a week or every few days, may be a way to bring it up. Back Massage, manicure, pedicure, scalp rub, hospital rub down. For $250.00 you can get a Maximum Massager, with a lifetime guarantee.
I saw this guy giving a demonstration with a seated massage chair. He had a 110 Volt, plug in, two handed vibrator, maybe 12 Inches by 12 Inches by 8 Inches High. It had about a 9 inch by 10 inch pad, for vibrating the back and leg muscles. He let me write down the info off the vibrator.

Maximum Massager, Made in China
Machine Brokers
2 New Road, #134
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610-459-4543, has Voice Mail, 24 Hr.

I don't think ther is an internet address or Web Page.

Gave a nice deep muscle massage. The lady I saw getting the massage with the Maximum Massage, did not want to let the next person in line take a turn.


If H is taking an oppositional attitude, then probably more work is needed on his self-esteem. One problem with oppositional people is that we (I include myself) need to feel better about ourseves, so we act on our own ideas and impulses, without fully regarding the impact on others, and then we experience criticism for our following our indepentent ideas, then we experience less approval from others, then we feel a need for increasing our self-esteem, which we do by acting more independently.

I personally try to break the cycle by being considerate of others, as a higher priority. But my ideas and independence sometimes get in the way.

I should do some more reading in Boundaries, myself. I will post something more thoughtful soon.

Here is a citation for on-line counseling. Tupy and Penny are mentioned as good on Durham76's thread.

saveyourmarriagecentral.com


Blessings

<small>[ July 08, 2004, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

Whaler

the more you explain the theory of "boundaries" the more I am getting it.

I always took my personal boundaries as very distinct lines and when crossed I was like a pit bull keeping people out of his territory.

But couldn't your idea of asking for a sort of exchange be interrpreted as an ultimatim? for example "H you know that the contact with the OW is hurting me very much. What would you think of me backing of on talking about the past hurts if you would end contact with her?"

Now in the very likely situation that he would decline my offer, I would continue to openly talk about my past hurt, hence that is now an ultimatum right?

I did a couple of sessions with Penny Tupy in the beginning. She's very good, but too aggressive for me and I couldn't afford her on a regular basis unfortunately.

I'm very tired so excuse my poor spelling.

Dear M,

That is a good exchange that you propose, stoppping talking about past hurt in exchange for NC.

The difference between an Ultimatum and Loving Confrontation, is that an ultimatum leaves no choices. "Do it or else."

I had in mind a loving confrontation, in a weekly, or some period of time, discussion of your concerns abour contact with OW's. My concept was to have a list of ideas for your doing something extyra for H, to rotate for each week. How about, "I make bisquits from scratrch, or cook blueberry cobbler, or wash your truck, vacuum your truck, or rub down your leather seats in your truck," or just something to get the point across that it is important to you.

I did not say you were wrong to call up OW. I believe that I shared with you that I had occassion to suspect my wife with a neighbor, and I spoke to the neighbor about my wife. I told my wife that I thought things were getting out of hand, and asked her to cut back contact.

I still don't have much trust in my wife in any absolute sense. I try to manage my corrall. I guess you could say I do a Rooster act. Animals are good teachers about this kind of stuff too. What ideas do you get from animals? Horse back riding is usually an enlightening experience for me, in understanding human nature, as trying to guide a horse, who has some of his own ideas, is an adventure.

So what suggestions come to mind that Penny Tuppy made? What are the stages of discovery and recovery? What steps did Penny suggest that you found too aggressive at the time?

Blessings

<small>[ July 09, 2004, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

Whaler

My H is gone for 2 weeks for reserves so I have some time to come up with some ideas to trade for NC.

Until then I think (I'm still not positive) that I'm going to mail a couple of the emails that OW sent to my H to her previous job (the hotel where my H stays) and to her new job (which is on the same line of what my H does, just different company, different job) and to her STBX. I think this will help her pay a couple of consequences. I will do this anonomysly and leave my H's email address out of it.

As far as Penny Tupy, I had 3 or 4 sessions with her in the very beginning before I was positive of my H's A's. She nailed his A's right on the head and told me to just have him pack his bags and go to Plan B. She told me to write letters to his boss, any other womans bosses I knew of, his family, my family and friends in regards to his affair that I didn't even have proof of. I explained to her that he would get fired, she said "You know he's going to have to switch jobs".

She only suggested Plan A for 3 weeks, then right to Plan B. When I mentioned what about my girls, she didn't take their feelings into account.

Who knows what would have happened if I would have gotten him out of the house right at the beginning, would he have re-thought his actions, or would he have liked "being on his own with knowone to answer to". I will never know.

The comment you made about animals made me chuckle and think a little. I believe I have mentioned that we have a "few" animals. We have 2 male goats, 4 male ducks, banty chickens and roosters and a male and female rabbit. The chickens are the ones whom really exhibit a behavior that interesting. We have 4 roosters and 4 hens (They do share partners) The roosters do corral their hens when they start to stray too far and the more dominent roosters will get ticked off when a less dominent one mounts a hen.

When I look at their behavior it's what I'm trying to do, the downfall is I could go to jail, a rooster can't <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

Dear M,

I am more on the quick and direct. My college age son got upset with my wife and I last night, and was slamming doors. My wife pointed out how everything was my fault, and then went to her mother's or someplace over night.

My son commented that my wife was unreasonable to stay out all night just because he was slamming some doors in response to her supposed transgressions on his privacy. I just pointed out that it was a cycle of make-wrongs. My wife and my son were busy trying to make other people wrong. My wife succeeded in making my son more wrong than he made her wrong. My son is pretty good at making other people wrong, but he got bested last night.

I have gone to my motor home 3 miles down the road overnight, when things have gotten too thick for me. I come back the next morning or the next day, usually around 5 AM, after everything has calmed down.

Part of what you would do by sending the E-mails would be engineering the OW's social structure. Part of it might be punishment or vengence.

I would more encourage you to be able to throw a good fit. When I get angry, I try to say what I am angry about and get out the door before I just start trying to be hurtful.

I knew what my wife was doing when she stayed out last night, and I knew what she was angry about. But I listened to some venting, and now we are talking civilly again. My feelings were not hurt, and I thougt it was funny as two master guilt trippers duked it out.

Do you have an overnight bag? Do you have things set up so you can express your anger by leaving to some location that H is not going to be worrying about your cheating? Can H get the girls to a sitter on his way to work? How could the morning work?

The Intimate Enemy books recommended cooling off processes to be in place when things needed cooling off. One problem is staying in an argument too long, because partners just get hurtful with each other if the argument lasts too long.

Blessings

Whaler

One of my biggest objectives here is to keep my girls happy and protected from their Mommy and Daddy's marital problems.

I can't "throw a fit" unfortunately as often as I need to and I definately can't leave under the heat of an arguement because that would be out of character for me and they would know something was wrong.

I keep our heated discussions pretty quiet and either outside or on the phone after they go to bed.

Another point is my husband throws everything back in my face so I need to pick and choose my battles. Me packing up and leaving for a night would definately get old quick only to get thrown in my face that I'm acting like a baby or something to that affect.

So, with that said when I do or say something to make my point known I need to do it so when it gets thrown back in my face it's well worth the effort.

I just pointed out that it was a cycle of make-wrongs.

Very good point and this is what my H does. He has ALWAYS as long as I've known him tried to make me more wrong than him no matter the situation. Even with the A's he's trying to say that my past verbal abuse (I'm not sugar coating myself, but I was no more than a typical wife, it wasn't that bad)was just as bad as his A and it's what drove him to an A. I've learned not to take that to heart anymore and that he's saying that to make himself feel better.

I on the other hand, although I do have my moments of "make wrongs" do not typically fall into that catagory. I am secure enough where I can admit my wrongs, take responsibility for them with out saying "I did it because....."

Everytime I say that I'm angry, hurt etc...about his continued contact with OW my H has a famous saying that drives me nuts "I dont know what to tell you, we're friends".

So sending the emails is for a lot of punishment and some vengence mixed in for good measure. She's paid no consequences for her actions, no consequences, no lesson learned.

Dear M,

"I don't know what to tell you, we're friends".


Proposed Response:
"Well actually, you have fallen closer than friends, and I would appreciate your cutting your contacts back to absolute minimum, as good judgement would dictate."

"In return, is there some way that I can give you some extra attention or extra consideration? How about let's go wash your truck together?"

MAKE-WRONG FORMULA FOR ODD

I have been studying the make-wrong behavior construct, the last few months. Dr. James Sutton suggested in response to an E-mail I had sent him about my son, that there is a continuum of motivators. The continuum is from trying to make more nearly equal, to trying to make equal, to try to appear superior. One of the possible likely initiators of this need or motivation to make-wrong, or equalize, could be lack of self-esteem.

There are many real life situations that many of us experience periodically, or daily, that could cause some of us to feel less than fully competent.

If H's drive for make-wrong is for increased personal self-esteem, then this leads us to an elemenet of the solution for the behavior. One piece of the puzzle is to create increased self-esteem for H. Coversely, another goal could be to decrease the number and intensity of ego depleting experiences to which H is exposed.

Certainly some ethics discussions and self-disciplne constructs are probably other pieces of the fix. Ethics might discuss the impact of make-wrong behaviors on important personal relations.

That one phrase you copied, "Cycles of make-wrong" is the culmination of months of my work on my son's ODD (Oppostional Defiant Disorder). I have been attempting to devise a Zinger phrase to tell my son that his make-wrong approach to problems is counter-productive. But I could not use a make-wrong approach, myeslf, because I need to build self-esteem, as another major component of my improvement strategy.

One reason I have felt justified in taking time with posting to you, is because H is serving in the Reserves, so by posting to you, I am being patriotic. But another component of H serving, is that military and other regimented services often have an adverse impact on self-esteem. Regimentation is sometimes, if not often, achieved by belittling personal individuality.

So one apprach is to attempt to counter any experiences of squashed indiduality. So you may serve your husband's Ego, by just asking him about what comes to mind about incidents where he got kicked. By listening and helping to cancel the negative messages implicit from the incident, you can help smooth over and reduce a motivating factor for H's make-wrong aproach.

Further, while this may seem unpatriotic, you might consider ways to reduce H's involvement in regimented activities such as the Military. Certainly some jobs come with Ego bashing situations also. But you might want to take an inventory of Ego boosting and ego-deflating circumstances for H, and see if adjustments can be made.

The Beauty of understanding the Make-wrong motivational construct connection with self-esteem, and ego-boosting/deflating experiences, Ethics and self-discipline, is that you can effectively coach for better results. Popping off when a Make-wrong person is annoying, can be part of the discipline side of the equation, but you also know what is in the rest of the equation, that also has to be handled.

To illustrate the mastery of the equation, the next time H does a make-wrong, "Well now just tell me who rained on your parade, that makes you feel like crinkleing me." or, "Someone must have slid in a side comment in on you that you did not think to counter. Is there some way we can talk about your spending less time with uninspired people? Or maybe discuss phrasing to fend off remarks that are insidiously undercutting?"

An important KEY is to not fall into the trap of arguing with H about the concepts he is using to make you wrong, because the make-wrong issue is a product of the equation, not a factor in causation.

Blessings

<small>[ July 12, 2004, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

Dear M,

The previous post does not deal much with the question you presented about disclosing the E-mails from OW. Previously, I have suggested respecting privacy is the policy I recommend personally. But I have failed to persuade you, apparently, to delay exposing the E-mails, so I will try to write up some logical constructs to suport my reasons for secrecy.

One dynamic I have been taught in self-help groups is the concept of personal responsibility. This means not trying to play God with other people. This means that if I have a problem with someone, I deal with the person involved, and not try to involve other people. Disclosing the E-mails is a departure from the basic rule of personal responsibility.

Personal Responsibility is partly for the respect of others, but is largely for keeping your own character in good shape. Involving indirectly connected people in a dispute that is between you and another, is just not good character. Certainly there are some exceptions. Certainly I may be wrong, in this case, and that your intuition to disclose may create marvelous results.

I try to operate by moral principles so that I can look other people in the eye. and say that they can trust me, that I will hold up my end of the deal, even if something unexpected comes along, and makes my end of the deal become less attractive. Disclosing private information about personal relations is underhanded, and not of straightforward character.

What you have is your character. You own yourself. If you sell yourself short, I suggest that is a poor decision.

There are many marriages which survive imperfections. One of the basic tennents of many marriages is "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." No Snooping, No Gossiping, No Listening to Gossip without Discounting. Let secrets remain secrets. There are few people on this board who have continuous surveilance on their spouse by round the clock Private Investigators. Marriage is a relationship of degrees of consideration. Even perfect marriages do not have absolute certainty about the next day, week or year. Marriage requires a practical approach about fidelity, to avoid driving yourself nuts.

Cloud points out that by being controlling, we deny our spouse the right to choose to love us. We need to find ways to build trust and consideration, without being controlling. Your disclosing the E-mails is an attempt to control your spouse and OW. Acts of controlling, discovered or undiscovered, undermine love.

The ideals of fidelity in marriage are clear and easy to understand. But trying to apply the ideals of fidelity to human beings, creates a big market for religion and counselors.

Most marriages are partly open, meaning that some imperfections in ideals of fidelity are present, or have, or will, occurr. How the partly open marriage is handled is an important factor. Discerning between problems that need to be addressed, and problems that are just bumps in the road, can be the difference between a marriage surviving, or unnecessarily falling apart.

What is most important is your own personal sanity. Don't let other people drive you nuts. Some people who insist on the simple ideals of fidelity in marriage have their heads in the sand, at least to some extent. Some may be telling you to insist upon absolute fidelity, but may not have the ideal themselves.

Advocating for full fidelity can be a therapeutic process in itself. Since few achieve the ideal, and even those who do achive fidelity, have no way of being truly certain they have achieved it, or that absolute fidelity won't end tomorrow. The process of advocating for the ideal helps each individual develop a method of dealing with some of the chances of imperfections in their mariage.

One of my goals is to be able to face my wife, or my children, and tell them I have tried to do a good job myself, and have tried to be understanding of any transgressions by my spouse, and been reasonably encouraging for my spouse to resist temptation. If I split up with my wife, I want to be able to tell the next lady that I made reasonable efforts to be considerate.

You can make a choice that you have worked on your marriage long enough, and decide to go to Plan B. Or you can continue to work on developing some sort of considerate compromise on imperfections.

Your daughters are likely to continue to benefit from having a constructive relationship with their father. One question is what is the best role for you to take to build character for your daughters? An approach you have been using is to keep the marriage together, and try to use what negotiating power you have to minimize occurrances with Other Women.

If you should break up with H, I suspect that you will find another man. When you are getting to know your next man, I think he would most likely want to know he can rely on you not to hang out his dirty laundry. That if you and the next man have serious problems, that you can just end the relationship, and maintain your reputations without throwing mud at each other.

I don't see it as possible for you to atack your husband by disclosing private E-mails, without damaging the reputation of your daughters, your parents, and other relatives.

Penny Tupy and many MB regulars probably disagree with me. Take no holds barred, and fight for your marriage at all costs. I say reputation, honor and trustworthiness are more important than saving a marriage or trying to live up to an absolute ideal. If you have to fight dirty to meet an ideal, then the ideal should probably be compromised. If you have to fight dirty to save a marriage, then the marriage should probably be left to divorce.

There is little talk on this board, or other boards, that I have seen, that discusses how individuals actually live in the real world. There are ideals mentioned and instances of failures to achieve the ideals, but little on the philosphy of feeling good about yourself, even though your spouse is less that absolutely faithful. You mention feeling like a doormat. Unrealistically high expectations lead to disappointment, if not depression. How can you adjust your expectations so that you don't feel like a doormat, but rather feel that you have an average marriage? You seemed content with your love busters not being more than average. How about letting H be average?

Blessings

<small>[ July 11, 2004, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

One question is what is the best role for you to take to build character for your daughters?

Whaler, with each decision I make or contemplate this is what goes through my mind and I say this truthfully.

I think about "Can I look my daughter's in the eyes and tell them this story in full" and "What would I want my daughters to do if in my situation."

Although the answers are never clear I know one thing is I never want my daughters to back down on something they feel in their heart is right.

I never want them to have to cowar like I have had to do to buy time, waiting for the right answer to come to me. I want them to stand up for themselves and say "You've done me wrong when all I did was love and trust you".

You've made your point clear that you do not agree with sending the emails and I appreciate your advise, I really do.

I have not yet made a definate decision on sending them, I am still waying the factors. But when it comes to "What will my girls think when they're older" or "What would I want them to do?" I would want them to send them, I would want them to stand up and say "This is so wrong. I have asked so nicely for you to stop hurting my family and you wouldn't so here's your consequences".

I look at it this way to, the only way I could come to terms with a D is if I left no stone unturned. I can't look back and wish I did more.

I've also taken to thought of letting God handle her, which is really a comforting thought.

I don't know Whaler....my head is so foggy lately (maybe I shouldn't use the word 'foggy' on this site for me) but you know what I mean. Life was so smooth before all this and now it's soooooo complicated, so unstructured for me.

I need to do more thinking and Thank you for taking into consideration that my H is reserves, I thank God that he hasn't been called to Iraq yet, but one never knows when that call is going to come in. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Dear M,

I am usually able to find a way to come around more upbeat. I have more work to do in that direction. I tried to make it clear that I respected your right to make an exception to the various principles I suggested to consider.

Blessings.

Whaler

I hope you havent taken offense to my last reply. I honestly thank you for your very wise suggestions. I'm trying so hard here to find the "right" answers but I know there really arn't any "right" answers.

Another question I ask myself is "how many more punches can I take for my kids?" They're so innocent and happy. It's not their fault. So I keep fighting this the best way I know "behind the scenes" where they can't see me.

Dear M,

I did put my personal feelings into my last post, so please sort them out when selecting your best decision.

MAKE-WRONG ODD

My ODD, Make-Wrong boss told me this morning that I did not know the cause of an important problem at work.

Was the right approach to explain the I did understand?

How about that it was not important for me to understand?

How about that I know, but was not going to tell him till I was more certain?

The best answer I thought of was to ignore the issue he raised, and look for ways to boost my boss's ego, so that he would get off his make-wrong kick.

ANSWER: "I actually don't need to know the cause of the problem because I have a boss that knows practically everything about everything, so if I get in a jam, my boss will let me know what I need to know to solve the problem."

Another Ego Booster Answer: Well we have a few talented and wise people in the organization (Meaning my boss) which really makes it unneccessary for me to need to be very intelligent.

Ideas for better answers to boost an Ego, and sidestep the invitation for an argument?

At the time, I was just silent, and left at an early opportunity. I knew not to bite into an arguement, but I did not have an ego-boosting phrase ready.

I was surfing the Web, and came across a conceptual angle for an approach to your feeling like a doormat and frustation with OW's. Perahps if you get more control of your side of the equation, the other side, H's philandering, will get smaller, as a result. If H is getting a jealousy response from you, and he is oppositional, then he may increase activities that will generate your jealousy, just from his oppositional personality perspective. Oppostionional people strive for emotional responses in partners and family members. Conversely, if you reduce your jealolusy response, the attractiveness of OW's may diminish. Therfore, to get a handle on your part of that equation, Overcoming Excessive Jealous Comments and Outbursts There may be other better approaches, but this was the first one that seemed logical. This is another logical set of articles: Handling Jealousy in Love Relationships, romanceclass.com

If H is an oppositional person, then it may be particularly important to get his cooperation on solving the problem of your not feeling like a doormat. In dealing with My 26 Year Old son who is living at home, taking some college courses, I frame things in terms of being considerate to people's sensitivities. One approach to H could be to say that you are overly sensitive about the issue of jealousy, and ask him for help with the problem. I don't really think that you are overly sensitive about jealousy, and H is the one who is overly sensitive to any emotional responses to his misbehavior. But taking jealousy as a problem, you might be able to better enlist H's constructive assistance and cooperation. "I'm feeling unhappy and jealous, is there anyway you can help me feel better?"

This is a quote from Orchid, an MB regular, from another thread, which describes the importance of not expressing Anger in a jealous manner:

Orchid: You are correct with your viewpoint. Keep it in mind. The WS may try hard to get you to enable his A. In reality, the WS and OP need to anger the BS because that is what fuels their A. Remove the fuel and the A engine will die.
End of excerpt by Orchid, 8823.

So another reason to delay disclosing the E-mails would be to avoid adding fuel to H's interest in OW's. You would be acting largely out of jealousy, and escalating something that you are hoping will die down.

Here is a recent post by Toomuchcoffeeman, which could be talking about Loving Confronation, I have suggested from Cloud.

Toomuchcoffeeman:
Walking you may want to consider quietly, calmly and respectfully sitting down with your W and asking her flat out if she is still talking with the OM. If she doesn't give you a clear cut yes/no answer and instead responds defensively, simply walk away and leave her alone with her thoughts. The point is to make her realize that she is sadly mistaken if she thinks that she is getting away with hiding the truth from you, and that she has seriously damaged whatever trust you had in her. After all, you don't want to become an enabler of her deception, do you? Remember that the truth is always toxic to lies.

--------------------
TMCM's MB Garage .
TMCM's MB Garage
'If you could see yourself through my eyes, you would never again question your beauty.'
END OF EXCERPT FROM TOOMUCHCOFFEEMAN, 16400

For over-all goals, like for your daughters, could maybe be stated as to be congenial, polite and adroit, but yet find a way to make things workable and fair for yourself. Making a stand for your rights, probably means that some things have been let go too long without sufficient effort having been made, early enough, to avoid a confrontation.

Working with oppositional people is a challenge. Even for us oppositional people ourselves, including me. Has H come up with any challenges over the phone, while he is away?

One suggestion I am making, is for you to look for ways to increase your displaying Admiration for H. Admiration is one of the MB Emotional Needs. By showing more effective admiration, H should be less oppositional to meeting your needs for his reducing his activiteis that cause your jealousy.

I have started a thread under Emotional Needs for my own search for ways to better display admiration for my wife. Star*fish suggested that I should be looking for habits of displaying Admiration. I did a Search in Emotional Need with Admiration, 254 hits, some ideas there for women for displaying admiration for their husbands.

Blessings

Other MB readers/posters probably have differing views.

<small>[ July 16, 2004, 04:03 AM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

Whaler

I have been away from the board since the 12th to go over my thoughts. I made the decision to mail 3 of the over 100 emails to her SBTX, and the hotel where my H stays (her previous employment) and their corporate offices. I did this without telling anyone for many reasons.

I could have gone a lot further, but didn't want to use all my fuel right now.

I mailed these this past Monday and estimated that they wouldn't arrive until Wed, or more likely Thursday.

I called OW yesterday and she told me that my husband had called her a few days prior and informed her he wouldn't be contacting her again. She told me she doesn't ever want anything to do with him nor I ever again. The tone in her voice was that of defeat.

I called my H and he said he had left her a voicemail saying that. He said he had come to the decision. I didn't ask him his reasons for the decision. I told him what I did and told him that if they ever do contact again, I will go a lot further without warning. He was more concerned of my legal well being. I assured him that everything's legal.

I feel this is real Whaler. Of all the lies, word I've heard, this on feels right.

I sent him an email last night expressing my appreciation for his decision. In it I also added that in the time that he wants to contact her, to call me. I won't be angry, I will be able to talk to him about it, talk him through it.

Dear M,

Perhaps my hand wringing gave you support in holding back, to some extent. I'm sure you feel like letting it all out. Thanks for the update, I was pretty sure you were thinking things over.

Hope you can focus on admiration for H, ego boosting, and avoiding cycles of make-wrong. I have been doing better in avoiding participating in escalating make-wrong cycles.

Legally, if something is offered as the accurate quoting of words, and it is an accurate quote, then truth may be an absolute defense. Sometimes people exaggerate in their wording of descriptions of events, and it does not seem that you are offering verification of the truth of the words, but it seems that you have some evidence of the truth of the words. You may wish to preserve the originals of what you distributed in a lawyers office file, if the accuracy is ever challenged. Or what you sent could be altered to make them appear false. So preserving may provide protection. Preserving could also backfire, as providing proof of something that would be difficult to prove. Hope you are consulting licensed lawyer in your jurisdiction.

I am thinking of taking a page from your book, and not telling one of my oppositonal family members that he will receive some consequences. My 26 year old son, living at home, taking a few college courses, leaves too many things around the living room. I may just start putting his things in his mini-stage space. If he can't find something, he can go there. I may call in for after hours access the day I put stuff in storage, but if he does not miss it in a day, he can go during regular access hours. I used to leave him messages of my moves on his cell phone, but he has objected to receiving my messages. So be it.

One I Message comes to mind, for your. "H, You are really embarrassing me in front of our daughters. One day they wil find out the truth, that I have really been used as a whipping post. Your philandering sets me off into a jealous rage. I am doing more than my part to make this marriage work. I suggest you avoid setting me off."

Blessings

<small>[ July 17, 2004, 02:44 AM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

One I Message comes to mind, for your. "H, You are really embarrassing me in front of our daughters. One day they wil find out the truth, that I have really been used as a whipping post. Your philandering sets me off into a jealous rage. I am doing more than my part to make this marriage work. I suggest you avoid setting me off."

Whaler, that is a good quote. I am going to practice it. My H is on his 2 weeks reserves and he hasn't been calling or returning my txt msgs. Last time we spoke was Thurs.

I know he's really busy, they have them going constantly over Indiana which is a very good possibility as to why he hasnt been in contact. That's the reason he's given this far.

I sent him a txt and left a VM yesterday saying that if he needs or wants to talk about anything that I am here to listen.

I've been recently reading "TRULY MARS & VENUS" I really enjoy that book, it's simple and to the point and makes sense and adds humor to it.

But of course the other scenarios race through my head...Is he going through a withdrawl because he initiated NC with OW?

Is he still in contact with OW and the NC was a lie?

Is he angry with me because I am the sole reason he is in NC?

Do I have to constantly analyize every situation from here on out?

Dear M,

The Mars and Venus book may give you some insghts into how to boost H's Ego, Admiration.

The scenerio that comes to my mind, that you did not mention, which I have seen on this board in similar situations, is that H may be feeling responsible for any problems that may befall OW. This is a less than the ideal situation, which I did not really mention before your decision to distribute the E-mails.

I am not sure how to assess the level of trust with H. H probably did not have the scenerio thought out, as to his being the whipping boy, instead of you, once some letters went out.

Blessings

<small>[ July 17, 2004, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>