I sent an email to my H that I think I did an o.k. job with. I tried to explain to him the difference between a boundery and being controlling.

I listed 1. No contact with OW at all. 2.Sex between him and I only 3. Not to speak negatively of me to other people.

I worded it HOPEFULLY well in my email to him to not appear as demands. I also asked him to let me know what his bounderies are, EN's are and what can I do to improve myself to improve the marriage. I ended it lovingly. Calling him a petname I've called him for years and saying that as we get through this the laughter will flow again.

I emailed him the link for the Infidelity Info on this site and included a loving message to him. I offered him to read my SAA book. I explained to him that his feelings and actions are not unique to him only. All BS basically do and say and think the same things and maybe by reading the book/site he won't feel isolated with his thoughts. It's worth a shot.

He emailed me some pictures from VA last night and at the end of the message it said 'LOVE YA'

I spoke with him on the phone. His voice sounded great for the first time in a long time. I know, don't get my hopes up but he sucks me in everytime I talk to him/see him. I almost wanted to tell my daughter to tell him I was busy but then that would put her in the middle, so I decided to talk to him. I got him to laugh. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> But that's him from what I've read in his emails to all these other woman. He sucks you in on his command. It's scary.

I asked him if he got my emails, he said no but he'd look again. I don't believe that. He's addicted to emails and his laptop in general.

I asked him if he could please reply to them, (he hasn't replied to 1 email since the start) he said yes. I woke up several times during the night and wanted to fire up my pc. I did 1st thing and NOTHING. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I will give him 2 days before I mention it again. I want a reply before he comes home which I told him. So, this is where I'm at.

Dear M,

Glad you are still in good spirits. You have decided to be generous to H, and I commend your forgiveness.

I still think it could be healthy to post some ideas of how you can pull back in a sequentially, logical manner on some issues, so that you have them ready to discuss with H, if he starts welching.

I tried to give you an idea of a planning issue topic. Is there anyway to list out upcoming events, situations, etc. so you have a list of things for possible discussion in advance with H?

H's probable deceipt of stating the he had not read your e-mails, is disappointing, yet expected, and you seem able to predict the acutal truth from his words. H apparently really meant, "I am not ready to discuss your demands at this time."

I think you can start to build trust if you can start discussing future situations, where you can follow through.

I hope you can still keep a pleasant atmosphere, and get him through some more counseling, as MC seems to be fostering growth for H.

Blessings

<small>[ April 25, 2004, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

Next trip to the bookstore I will buy the Bounderies book. I obviously need it.

I didn't list the consequences in my email if my H doesn't agree w/my bounderies because I wasn't sure how to list them not appearing as an ultimatum.

If my H doesn't agree w/my bounderies than the consequence is he is out of the house. PERIOD. I am done with him having his cake and eat it too. I have way too much self respect to live with a husband that feels sleeping around is o.k. It's not going to happen.

I have seen 3 lawyers so I know basically where I stand financially and although it'll be tough and tight I will make it. I don't feel like going through an ugly divorce but I will if need be. But if I know my H, he's not going to want to put the time and effort into the fight I will be putting forward. I think he'll fold.

I talked to him this morning. His voice still sounded good, he ended it with I love you.

Will I ever trust him again? That's a big question in my mind... Is he smart enough to learn from his mistakes? I'm not too sure about that...This was the biggest most stupid mistake a person could make. And he knows me well. That's why he didn't want me on anti-D's. He knew once my backbone was back in place I would figure everything out and come out with the big guns. I may be tiny but I'm stubborn, persistant, and vicious when cornered. I know how to get someone exactly where it'll hurt the worst, and I am smart enough to do it legally and quietly.

I've already gave 2 girls small punches in the stomache (I don't mean as in physical punches)as a wake up call as to who they're dealing with, and I will go back and get them harder if they want to keep messing with me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Sounds like you are getting stronger. Get the boundaries book. With boundaries, you don't tell the other person what to do, you just show them what you will not accept.

For example, you can tell WH that if he chooses to see other women, that you will protect your love for him by not having any contact with him.

Here's where I'm at. As always advise and support appreciated.

There is one girl my H was involved with. I found an email that they were together the night before Easter. And this is after I had told her myself that he's married with 2 girls. I have left nice voice mails on her cell saying that I am the wife of B.. and his daughters and I would greatly appreciate it if she would stop contact with him. I have sent her nice emails. No reply, and continued contact. So my voicemails/emails got a little more stern, yet not life/physcially threatening (I am no dummy).

Soo..I called her husband last night and told him the contents of the email, he was mad (at her) and hung up on me.

I called my H (still in VA) and we were on the phone for almost 3 hours <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> We talked about everything under the sun regarding us. I can't stand the justification he's doing and "these girls have nothing to do with what I did on 1/06 (he did the whole we can't live together, I'm not in love with you), I did that to stop the lie I've been living with you". He keeps protecting these girls, saying it's not their fault, but it's my fault for the way I'm feeling now that I've found out because I snooped. He didn't tell me about the PA's because he was trying to protect me and because they have nothing to do with his non-existance feelings for me.

I asked him about my email regarding my bounderies, and as I thought he sees them as controlling because in his eyes there are different levels of control and bounderies are just not the direct approach. I knew he'd say that!! He agreed to the no sex with other woman, but not to the no contact. Says I can't control who he speaks to, which would be fine if I was dealing with a guy who had morals.

I said to him that I'd like to believe and trust him about the no sex. He says that's my problem if I don't.

Everything he talks about is about HIM, HIM, HIM. What makes HIM happy and he never mentions our girls at least making him happy <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I said to him "do you notice that when I speak of wants and happiness it always includes the girls, I speak of family time, I am my voice and theirs". He says he purposely distanced himself from them because he didn't like being around me <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> The worst thing he said was that when I asked him if he wanted a second child, that in his gut he didn't want one because he didnt even like me at that point, but he just said yes to avoid an arguement <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> He didn't want to hurt my feelings also. WOW, WHAT A MAN HAH? HAD 2 KIDS WITH HIS POOR WIFE WHOM HE DIDN'T EVEN LIKE. WOW, THE SACRIFICES HE'S MADE.

Obviously I can't write about 3 hrs conversation so in short H still wants to go to MC (and he keeps asking me what I got out of exposure. Although I will never say"you're going to MC now right?"), and he agreed to no sex with other woman and says he hopes he won't let me down <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> His voice sounded good again.

BUT...I am afraid when he comes home and starts working again and staying in the "slut" motel he will re-enter the fog deeply.

I told him "DO NOT PLAY ME FOR A FOOL, DO NOT THINK YOU WILL JUST COVER YOURSELF BETTER". He says "o.k.".

Dear M,

You are certainly working on your marriage, and your level of effort is to be commended.

I suggest though, that you try to be sure you are working the smartest avenues. That is, put your efforts into directions that will pay off in the results you want.

What you want is a husband who has sufficient self-discipline to avoid PA's and EA's. Self discipline can be supplemented by satiation from the marital abode.

You mention that you sense H is distancing himself from his daughters, and that would be a factor indicating parenting classes, or other strategies, to get get you and H more together on parenting functions, processes, planning and activites.

If your discussions with H are about planning for the future, then longer discussions could be a positive sign.

I will present a 180 Degree Divorce Busters suggestion for re-consideration, which is not checking on H for straying indications. Your involvement with pushing a particular OW to avoid contact, does not seem to be the total solution to the problem. It is also taking on a monkey that he should be controlling. If that OW splits from her husband you spoke to, that could be a backfire, and H would feel more responsible to take care of that OW in that circumstance. One problem with releasing this kind of EA or PA information is that the results can be explosive, and unpredictable.

If H begins refusing to go to counseling, then that might be a time to consider more drastic steps. You might find some release in meditative prayer for stgrengthening your H.

What kind of building up prhases do you have for him? What did you discuss that you are working on together? What else can you work on together?

Blessings

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by m01069:
<strong>He's also into internet relationships on his laptop. Any suggestions for ending that?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You set the boundry and let him convince/show it to you. I would put this on the table and ask him. If you have to stop yourself from this how do you go about it ?.

There are keystrokes recording softwares that you could install and you could have the log send it to you. You have to be the one who has the password to administer it.

Remember it has to be POJA !. The point of this is to hold him accountable and to help him to avoid temptations. Not forcing him to bow with the term, it is his choice.

Again you set the boundry and let him prove it to you that he stays within it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . The burden of proof is on his hand and not yours.

-rh-

As far as discussing the future, my H can't get by the past. He's in this state of blaming me. He sits there an brings up every wrong thing I ever said or done. I try to listen, when he's finished try to bring up some future topic and he goes back. He's grasping for straws. These are best ones he came out with. This is in conv. of me being controlling over him he brought up this.

H says "you never let me go and help people at their houses. When your sister was putting a new roof on her house you said I couldn't even go help her."
me: My sister hasn't put a new roof on her house yet, so how did I stop you.

2nd one was
H says: "I hid the gun cabinet keys on a secret shelf above the wood stove and you found the shelf and put took the keys and put them back in the drawer and then copied over email addresses I had hidden up there too"

me: "I never knew there was a secret shelf there till now, I wasn't the one to put the keys back in the drawer. If I were to take the keys wouldn't I have hidden them myself? And I didn't get the email addresses from there either. I just admitted to calling these OW and emailing them. I'm not going to lie about a set of keys that I never touched"

I found those comical and the best part is my H is positive still that those things happened. Maybe he is crazy after all?

I'm sure your WH's actions and words are part of the WS syndrome.

Did you ever check out lostnhurt's post about her WH's complaints. First he said she didn't decorate the house. When she posted pictures of the house, everyone here assured her that it was beautiful.

Then he said it was the lamp in the bedroom that he didn't like. She went out and bought a new lamp and spread for the bed. He liked the lamp, but the spread had "too much red".

It got to be hilarious after awhile. Last I knew his complaint was that she was too nice.

Go figure.

m01069,

He is still in the deep fog. WAT puts it as his body was snatched by Alien.

As long as you don't take this personally and just laugh it out, you will be fine. He will snapped out from his fog and I hope you could out last it.

-rh-

Dear M,

I may be wrong, but I am concerned with your listening to an excessive amount of fog talk from H. I feel that you could set some boundary on listening to ideas that tend to support philandering in an illogical, or a non-solution oriented direction.

I am thinking of some phrases, such as, "How does that relate to making our marriage better?" when he comes up with the , "I never loved you, or our second daughter was for you only" kind of remarks. These are really guilt inducing attempts, and I feel that your listening to those ideas, without effectively countering those ideas, with loving confrontation, is missing an opportunity to speak up for STANDING. I don't suggest that he is being successful in making you feel guilty about derrogatory issues he brings up. I just think that turning the conversation to a willingness to change now, is important for him not to stack up a bunch of guilt in the corner of his mind. Any stack he builds up, ask about how it relates to the present. Therby invalidating the stack of guilts. Is that a useful term, Guilt Stacking Talk? A sub-category of Fog Talk.

One advantage of Plan B is that you don't have to listen to Fog Talk, or illogical ideas that tend to support philandering. We need to come up with ideas for you to speak up, in a way that is comfortable for you, to say, "Your Fog talk sounds illogical and non-solution oriented to me."

Maybe, "Well feelings of Love fluctuate, but a committment to a marrige and a family should be steadfast." Try out some phrses, so you can point out that he should be in a marriage to receive love, not to feel it. He should be looking for ways to give love, with the hopes of receiving more Love. We have talked about this idea before, but I failed to convince you to come up with ideas to establish that boundary with a suitable change of subject. how about, "Are you asking me how you can be more lovalbe? Are you trying to give me an idea of how I can be more lovable? I'm not sure I understand the idea you have for me to change to be more lovable."

Another way to set a boundary, is that when a non-solution-oriented subject comes up, change your focus to a related, solution oriented subject.

Happiness is a feeling you get when you achieve success after putting forth effort and planning.

My son and a younger brother like to try to build up guilt trips on me. I just keep turning back to the question of, "How can we make things better now?" They act unhappy, but I just keep acting pleasant.

Blessings

<small>[ April 26, 2004, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

I know I am listening too much to his guilt inducing attempts. I am very much a person of her word. What I say I mean and is true and I like to believe everyone else is the same in this world because I do not see any benefit to lies. This leaves me gullable and vulnerable and it's something I have fought with forever.

I know in my mind that a lot of people lie and yet I ALWAYS give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

I try SO HARD to turn a deaf ear to his stories, and analogies but there's a little voice inside my head that says "believe him, listen to him, maybe you are wrong in your thinking". There are days when I really think I am going looney. I am sure everyone can relate. I don't trust my own judgement anymore for anything down to what to cook for supper. I could take 3 different things out of the freezer before I decide on a fourth and then I still wonder if I could have made a better choice. I know, I'm blabbing. That's what goes on inside my head 24-7 is like voices over and over. I am on Anti D's.

Whaler you might like one of the two nice things my H said to me yesterday (probably the first nice things in over 3 months) cuz you mentioned one of them about 500 posts ago.

He said "you are a good cook, NO, you are a GREAT COOK! Everything you make is great, delicous" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Then he went on to say I am beautiful and I have a beautiful body <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> and everyone he shows my picture to says the same <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

We were on the phone 3 times today. The last time was for 45 minutes. No relationship talk. We were actually talking a little bit about the future, putting up the barn and getting some different chickens (we have banty hens for pets <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> and goats) We were laughing because I said I wanted a Llama.

We were both tired from being on the phone til Midnight last night and having to get up early. Towards the end we were just both yawning in each others ears and we said Goodnight, I love you.

I have been trying your suggestions about trying to get him to refocus on the present and future versus the past. I keep rereading your posts (see your time IS well spent with me). Another FAMOUS phrase of H's is "THE PAST HAS BROUGHT US TO THE PRESENT" He is a master at getting me off course and off my train of thought. I know, I have knowone to blame but myself and I am practicing. I noticed a huge improvement in my communication last night, but much more practice is needed.

I know my H is waiting for me to slip up, go back to old ways. I am scared a little too. IF things calm down here I fear that as I really get back into the swing of things, especially w/summer coming (my girls and I keep VERY busy in the summer) that unitentionally I will start to push him aside again. Example being, supper's burnin on the stove, phone's ringin, kids fightin, and H wants a hug. He says he got hurt even in those instances when I would push him away out of frustration and go running to supper, the kids, the phone, whatever.

Well, this post is long enough. I've bored you all. Goodnight, sleeptight everyone.

At what point do I consider myself in "recovery?"

Would it be better if I moved over to that board? I feel comfortable here because everyone knows my story, but this forum doesn't get the activity like some others for some reason.

Why not post on both forums? Sounds like things are getting better for you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by m01069:
<strong> At what point do I consider myself in "recovery?"
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">After withdrawal ends ...

When do I know withdrawl ended?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by m01069:
<strong> When do I know withdrawl ended? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For WS ... when ws focus working on M & on you rather than crying or *****ing about OP.

For BS ... when you could say (consistently) I don't want WS back even WS willing to ammend me by eating my dog's [censored]. This train had left the station long time ago and you had missed the departure time. The focus is BS's life/future minus WS. Of course you have no love and feeling for WS and WS is out from your mind.

-rh-

Now, I know you're not a mind reader, or pychic. But if you could help.

Last Tuesday is when I broke into his email and discovered his PA's, he knew I did this. At midnight that night he called me saying he's sorry and he wants to work on us and see where it goes.

He's still saying he wants to work on us, go to MC (our appt is 5/08)we also want to go to parenting classes, he admits it's going to take time, it's not going to be all right overnight.

My concern now is 1. is he sincere (he says he is) but he also added that it's easier than the argueing that's been going on. 2. I feel he has another motive to his madness

I have a hard time believing he all of a sudden wants to try.

Dear M,

I try to be optomistic and encouraging, but I also try to ask you to look behind, and beyond, H's words. It is good to list out other possible meanings for H's words, other than just face value.

What I hear you saying is, that what H may really mean, is, "Well since M found proof of PA, I better let her down easy, by switching to telling her I will try to work on the Marriage."

Work with what you have, is one option for you. ACT AS IF, WALK THE WALK, TALK THE TALK, are prases in self-imporvement, that mean that even if someone is not fully mentally committed to going straight, if they just go through the motions long enough, they will get comfortable with being straight, and become straight, even though, in the beginning, the indiviudal was not fully committed to going straight.

Work on knowing each other's Boundaries. Practice changing the subject when H gets off on a tangent.

You meniton you are on Anti-Depressants, and I hope they are of assistance to you. I want to mention Rebound or Come Down, because Doctors, and others, often over-look mentioning the effects of stopping the meds. When the Anti-Depressants are stopped, there is a period of residual build-up, in which the medication is still stored in your body tissues, and continues to have an affect for you. Rebound or Come Down is when you become more irritable than normal, as the level of Anti Dpressant in your blood decreases, and other individuals seem highly unreasonable to you. I suggest you look for Coming Down effects if you decide to discontinue meds. The appearance of unreasonableness may occur in the first day, a few days later, or even a week or two after stopping, when the residual in the body is depleted. Some people report Come Down even when missing just one day of meds. Some people never notice any difficulties. Hope the meds go smooth for you.

Having an extra cup of coffee, or maybe a Tylenol, may help you get through coming down, if you notice some irratibiity. Or your doctor may have something else for you, that could be helpful.

I guess my persnal approach to marriage is, that as long as my wife comes home at night, I try to work with her the best I can, although I suspect imperfection.

You have mentioned that you have felt foolish some times when you have realized that H meant something different than what he said, and you had gone along with his words. Cloud discusses different types of pain. There is pain we cause others by being inconsiderate, which is unnecessary pain, and we should avoid unnecessariy causing others that type of pain. But there is the pain of personal growth, and we should not try to save others from pain that will actually help them grow, spiritually, personally. Another type of pain is from the difficulties of trying to encourage another person to go through the counseling and other growth processes, that could be helpful to them. Personal Growth processes are not an exact science, and there are setbacks. I suggest that you feel righteous in facing the pain of attemtping to help H through counseling, etc.

There will be a temptation to give up trying, when the idea that you are not going to be successful in your assistance, seems more significant. I suggest however, that Standing is a Holy undertaking, and that nearly all religions recognize the spritual value of marriage. I suggest that when feelings of doubt come to you, that you think of the spiritual Saintliness of your Standing. There will be a temptation for you to quit, or not take further risk of experiencing a feeling of failure.

I have tried to be clear that timing of quitting, or going to Plan B, is yours to make. I will just try to point out where I see hope. You don't mention the start time of a parenting course.

Blessings

<small>[ April 28, 2004, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

I have a previous experience with Zoloft and "come down". I was on it a couple of winters ago. I live in the northeast where winters are depressing, kids too young to go outside then, I was depressed and went on Zoloft. Under my Dr's advise I stopped taking it cold come summer. Boy, I will never do that again! My extremities would go numb and I cried all the time.

I am going to ask my daughter's preschool tomorrow about area parenting classes.

Well, have to go. We just got 2 velveteen rabbits and my 3 yr old wants to hold hers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />