Dear M,

I read Believer's post, and agree with everything she said.

In the simplest part of Boundaries, we look at everything we want our spouse to do differently, what boundaries we want them to follow. Men's desired boundaries and Wives' desired boundaries are often different.

The simplest way to set a boundary for our spouse, is to set that same boundary for ourselves, and follow the same boundary that we wish our spouse would follow.

You want to use your MC for ideas, but don't get too taken by your MC's opinions or ideas. Choose what works for you. One of my rules was to never agree to any suggestions in the session, but write down any suggestions, so that you do nto forget them.

One boundary that comes to mind, is that if your husband is having a friendship with a woman, and the friendship seems to be heating up, that you would like him to back off. This may be an example in your life, that you can use for a model. You can let H know that this friendship you have with another man has gotten a little too close, and you are cutting back contact. Follow through, and cut back.

H saying that he is wiling to continue the marriage with your having affairs with other men may be a sincere philosphy that would allow an open marriage. As you and your MC guess, H is probably not ideal for an open marriage, as few of us are ideal for that. Being in the military, and being stationed away for periods of time, he needs to have a non-standard philosophy on marriage. So work on the issue in MC, but I don't think H's saying that he is permitting you to have an affair, is anything more than a test, or a rationalization, that you may be less than perfect, in the same way he has been less than perfect. Have you arrived at any strategies for increasing satiation? Have you discussed timing? Techniques?

You do not seem to be counting all that your husband is doing for you now. He is working long hours. You are not counting what H is doing for the country, by staying in the reserves, to help train Army Reserves, which have been an essential element in Iraq. In the Fire Dept., he is helping protect the community property.

How are your family finances? If you and your husband can get in sinc. with what you are doing for your daughters, you will be better in tune. It is unlikely that anyone in the world will be as devoted to your daughters as H.

Your husband has strenghts and weaknesses. Cout his strengths first. I seriously doubt that if you were in real trouble, that your H would hesitate to help.

H's blaming you for your difficulties may be something to work on in MC. It may be a part of the respect he has for you, as a trusted partner with good judgement. H's philosphy seems to be that he is a highly productive and responsilbe person. H holds himself accountable for any of his shortcomings. So H may well feel that you are of sufficient character to take responsibility for your decisions.

Like Believer said, you are in recovery, the early stages, and just keep a hold of your horses. That is a phrase from cowboy western movies. A runaway stage is where the horses have taken the bits in their teeth, and are running wild. You have a ways to go with getting your daughters grown up and married. Keep your eye on the donut is an expression I have heard, but there is a hole in the middle of the donut. Maybe you can explain the full meaning of that phrase to me.

Blessings,

Dear M,

I think you have to look behind your husband's words to understand his positive and negative qualities.

The distinction between not caring, and caring but avoiding over-reaction, and caring but trusting, are all close in English words. Your husband stating that he does not mind if you have an affair, could be any of the three different meanings. If your husband has been giving you enough money to run the household, I suggest that there is a fair amount of trust there. Trust is that you will use good judgemmment.

One idea is that if there is love, fidelity will naturally follow, withuot being forced.

The guy who keeps track of your drinks is close to practicing rescue. Rescue from a partners own common mistakes is not good boundaries. Good boundaries means taking resonsibility for your own mistakes, and being trustworthy by avoiding common mistakes. Drinking too much is a common mistake. Your husband is practicing good boundaries by trusting you to avoid mistakes. H is also trusting you to make up for any common mistakes that befall you. H is asking you to be trustworthy, by refusing to particpate as a rescuer.

It probably creates a little good feeling when the other man gives you some rescue. But if you start feeling some euphoria, then it is probably time to cut back on that relationship.

Blessings,

<small>[ May 11, 2004, 01:57 AM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

Whaler, I see what you're saying about me liking the feeling of being rescued. But it's more than that. I don't need someone to monitor my drinks. I like and need my driver's license so I monitor my own when driving. It's just so nice that there's someone that is WILLING to take the time out for ME .

I am more than capable of handling myself, even at 5'3" tall I can handle alot, but it's so nice again to have someone that is willing to take time out for me to ensure my safety.

My Dad was my safety, he died in 1994. I haven't had any safety since then and learned to defend myself alone.

I know I need to back off of this friendship, my logic is telling me to.

To be truefull, after all my H has put me through, all the begging I did for my kids sake, H still wanted a divorce. It took exposure for him to say he wants the marriage. The makes me angry and very leary of his motives. I have a fear that if I let my very good friend go, only to have my H do the same again. Leaving me alone again because I supposedly did the RIGHT THING In MC I asked what was his turn around. H says Well, it's what's best for the kids, you and I guess for me. Also, you were taking down too many people and weren't concerned about people losing their jobs. (In that he was referring to the other woman, I could have had 3 people fired in a short time)

See what I'm saying???

Dear M,

I have been rooting for you to work things out with H. To the extent that this has been your goal, I have tried to point out options for approaches to resolve issues and problems. I have not really said much about morality. I believe that if I try to do the right thing, that I will be better off, personaly. I feel that the religious ideas of maintaining a marriage have validity, and I recommend that you consider doing what is right by your marriage, Standing.

You say H does not spend much time with you. I think Dr. Harley recommends 10 to 15 hours of quality time per week. Your MC is recommending you spend more time with H. What activities can you share with H, that he enoys, that you can compromise with him? What are all the things he would like to do with you? You mention TV together. Can you draw the two overlaping circles on TV watching? Any of his items currently outside the overlapping area, that you could find compromises to bring into the agreement area? Watching DVD's or videos, instead of cable, allows you to pause and interrupt on your schedule, to interrupt TV to discuss ideas, etc. There are parenting and boundary videos.

I would repeat what Believer said, that you are in a vulnerable mind set, in recovery, shortly after having confirmed infidelity by H. You need to be cautious with your feelings, and let some time pass, and be sure that MC is heading the right direction. There is a time to suspend MC, and there is a time to switch counselors, and a time to go to a parenting course, and a time to particpate in other self-improvement activities together. Try to list out all of H's ideas for time together.

Blessings

<small>[ May 11, 2004, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

Whaler, Im just going to vent thoughts going through my confused mind here.

I WANT to work things out w/ my H but due to his "change", meaning his thought processes I'm not sure it can. My H has gotten so weird. Every conversation ends up with my H being overly phylisophical and analytical. There's no fun in our conversations, everything is so serious. When I try to make a conversation fun, he picks it apart.

To be blunt here, Since I met my other friend, I've actually been happier and able to deal with my home life better. I know the OP and I have no future other than a great friendship and the OP knows that too. We laugh! He took my self esteem off the floor where my H left it and brought it up to heaven.

My H and I arn't sexually compatible anymore either which is bothering me. He only like masturbation with someone watching, I don't enjoy that at all. I talked to his previous OW the other night and she confirmed that's what he's into and that's one of the reasons she stopped seeing him. He also has a big thing with 2 woman which she declined and he knows I am definately not into.

I feel like my situation is so much more complex than a lot of others. We go to MC tonight and it's so hard to prioritize my thoughts/fears/wants/needs when I go in there.

I am a simple country girl with simple wants. I understand and respect that everyone has different likes/wants/needs than myself but when it comes to living with them, that's different. My H was the most normal, nicest man and now he's so different. I crave "normal" in a man right now,

I love my H still, and this OP knows that. I know I should end it w/OP but he's another piece of the puzzle that's helping to keep my sanity if that makes any sense. I told my H about this OM and he's fine with it. There's not only 1 OM, I've become friends w/ a couple others. But there are definately more feelings with this one. I have always gotten along better with men than woman and b4 marriage I had more guy friends than woman.

I'd much rather sit around talking cars and dirt bikes than makeup and hair. Guys relate to me because I'm not catty like a lot of girls are.

O.K I'm just blabbing here. Thanks for reading again.

Dear M,

It may be that having male friends is working for and your marriage. I revise my suggestion from cutting back now, to being ready to cut back, if things seem to be heating up. It sounds like you have things on an even keel.

I had recommended an MB thread some time ago, that discussed a wide range of ideas on martial bedroom activities. MB Thread with a Wide Variety of Opinions If there is something he wants to watch, why not pick it up at the video store for him. Perhaps H could use some Individual Counseling. There are basically two approaches. Either try to make accoommodations with H, or try to convince him to get himself reformed to be more normal. Are there other ways in which he might benefit from IC? What does you MC think?

The Addiction approach is over-used, in my opinion, but it may be the best approach for your situation. I still caution against the addiction model as a make-wrong approach, but they have some wild therapies, that can take time, and cost money. The behavior stuff they have dreamed up, could condition anyone to do anything, including normal, if that's what you want.

Blessings,

<small>[ May 13, 2004, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

Dear M,

I used to be able to keep adding to my message until you replied. Since the administrators have shortened the time to editing to about an hour, I will start a new post.

Cloud speaks of associations with others. We should let our spouse know of our needs, but we cannot reasonably expect our spouse fo fulfill all our needs. If our spouse is unable to meet a particular need that is important to us, then we should let our spouse know what the need is, and allow the spouse the opportunity to choose whether to try to meet our need, or not. Then, within reasonable limits, we can seek to fulfill that need, outside the marriage.

My wife and I seldom carry on a conversation about many of my interests, and I simply talk to others outside the marriage about those interests. I occasionally bring up the idea, that it would be nice of my wife to be interested in my vairous, current interests, and allow my wife the opportunity to confirm that she has no inclination to be supportive of those particular ideas.

Blessings

Whaler

I'm going to be away from the forums for a while. I need to sort through a lot of things in my head. The voices in my head of all the awful things my H has said since January are getting louder, and the pictures of me lying home crying while he was out fooling around are getting more vivid.

I thought the initial shock of finding the details would have been the worse, but as time goes on it is getting harder. I do not have time to go to IC unfortunately. I would rather go to MC and PC, which leaves me no time for me, as usual. I am a strong woman I have found with a deep faith. I am going down a path right now that I don't understand, but have faith that it'll lead me right.

I HAVE TO THANK YOU SO MUCH for all your wisdom, help and understanding and I will be rereading posts. You have been great and if I get stuck, I'll start a new post.

As far as the OM in my life, he's a great friend and the only thing he has done is picked my self esteem off of the floor where my H left it and let me know that I am liked and cared for. I have found out that there are many people out there that care for me and would do anything to help me, men and woman. I wrapped my life around my H and kids for 16 years and in the process I lost myself and my friends. I did this happily until now. I have realized I can't dedicate my entire life to just them, I need to make room for me, to discover myself again.

My H took me away, and I can't get her back so I need to and I am on the road to finding a new me. My kids are the love of my life and my greatest accomplishment and they come first. I have found deep down in my core that I am a very loving, caring person and thanks to the help of a lot of new and old rekindled friends I have found that I am also a lot of fun to be with and wanted. These are the things my H took from me and my friends gave me back.

The best of luck on your journey...Peace be with you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by m01069:
As far as the OM in my life, he's a great friend and the only thing he has done is picked my self esteem off of the floor where my H left it and let me know that I am liked and cared for. I have found out that there are many people out there that care for me and would do anything to help me, men and woman. I wrapped my life around my H and kids for 16 years and in the process I lost myself and my friends. I did this happily until now. I have realized I can't dedicate my entire life to just them, I need to make room for me, to discover myself again.
[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dear M,

This paragraph really worries me. You have every right to be upset about your H, but please stay away from OM. I know exactly how it feels to be married to a person who does nothing but tear you down, and then encounter someone who builds you up. It feels so wonderful that you cannot believe that it is wrong. But it is. Please try to find yourself with some female friends only, or, at least be honest and divorce your H before developing the relationship further.

Dear John,

The suggestion you make to cut off the OM is the suggestion I made at first. I changed my suggestion, when M explained that she felt she could handle the relationship within responsible bounds.

I changed my recommendation to ask M to be sensitive to the concept of the relationship getting out of hand, and have ideas ready to cut back on the relationship if it appeared to be getting out of hand.

I keep a pretty tight watch on my contacts with women, but my wife is aware that she has decided to decline sharing a number of my significant interests. I am feeling I am too restrictive on myself, currently, and plan to loosen up a little.

Caution is a good watchword, and erring on the side of fidelity is probably the best advice.

I have not read your other posts. How are you doing?

Blessings

<small>[ May 21, 2004, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

Whaler,

Where do I begin? For starters, my relationship with OM ended up starting to get out of hand emotionally, he started playing head games with me, so we mutually backed off. What the heck! All I wanted was a nice friendship, we met by accident ( he was pushed into me literally). Whatever, I'm o.k. with it I guess.

My H and I went out last night clubbing! We had an awesome time! It's so weird, because it's like we picked up where we left off so many months ago. Even had sex! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> He was kissing me in the bar and holding on to me. It was so nice.

Could it be true? Can we really work? Or is he just playing me? Another card in his deck. Is he going to string me along til the kids are older? He knows that financially he would be devastated w/ a divorce. I'm so confused.

Dear M,

Sounds like things are going so well you have to pinch yourself, to be sure you are awake.

I understand your looking for soft spots in the picture. Relationships can go like, staying together for the kids to grow up. But that can take a while with college, and grad school and moving back home to find a job, to actually earn a living.

So then an upcoming stage is sometimes enjoying memmories of the kids growing up, or helping them with their real problems, then their families, then grand kids. There are a lot of excuses to stay together as you get older. Then there are grandchildren. How do you explain to grandchildren that you are splitting up? That is really illogical.

I don't really ask you to trust your husband, but rather to work on making it work. Having relations means he is trusting you more. Your letting him learn to trust you with his intimate ideosyncracies, is more important. You want H to be more trustworthy for you, so find ways to be more trustworthy yourself. That is the Golden Rule. Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you. Cloud talks about the concept, as you sow, so shall you reap, as a law of martial relations.

Just try to find more ways to be loving, and hope that it is enough. If the relationship fails, you should want the best reference for the next realtionship, that you are a trustworthy person, as you tried to be trustworhty in a diligent manner. If there is a time to find another man, you may wish to be able to look into the eyes of the next man, and say, "I am super trustworthy."

Here is an MB Thread under Romataic Experiences, that might make for some fun marital conversations. MB Romatic Experiences Thread on Marital Enhancements

Blessings

<small>[ May 25, 2004, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

Dear M,

Hope you are doing well. Another poster referred me to an article about being controlling. That was one of the issues your H felt trapped. Love Must Be Tough, by Dr. James C. Dobson, Tyndale House, 1996

I am working with a friend, man whose wife has left him a few months ago. His wife felt that my friend was too controlling.

Dobson sugests that the spouse feeling subjected to excessive controlls, will reduce communication.

My friend's wife has stopped talking to my friend, and continues to avoid talking to him. I suggested The Love Diet and 180 Degree Love Busters, but I also suggested finding choices for my friend to offer to his wife.

I personally have resolved to be less controlling with my wife, and offer her as many choices as I possibley can, so when I do feel a need to impose something, I will have a better track record of having given choices, options and POJA.

Dobson points out that one spouse is usaully more committed to the marriage than the other, during troubled times. One partner may really feel the marriage is not worthwhile. The concept of respect and choices are considered important by Dobson.

My wife and I bougth a used car from a car dealer tonight, and I feel that I did fairly well in giving my wife the idea and reality of being in control and being consulted. I made it clear that I would hold off if she did not agree with the situation.

I will try to keep doing better.

Blessings,

<small>[ June 26, 2004, 03:02 AM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

Hey Whaler!!

I've been over on recovery board and I jumped over to drop you a line.

Thanks for still thinking of me. Here's my situation.

Recovery is going very well except he still calls some other women "friends".

We have both agreed that he will "cut back" on the calls and absolutely no physical contact.

Him and I talk so much now and I'm starting to fall for him all over again which is leaving me very scared. He is so nice to me, calls me all the time and is very attentive and the sex is incredible and very frequent now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

One of his lines during his deep fog was that he was never in love with me and lied to me for 16 years to "keep me happy". This is why I'm scared of our recovery. Is he still "faking" this to make me happy? Is he in love with me? I hesitate to ask because recovery is still fairly new and quite frankly I'm scared of the reply. I feel that if he still replies that he's not in love and never was that will send me spiraling backwards and mentally right now it won't take much for me to file for D.

I've learned so much about myself during this storm. I'm very strong and know now that I can conquer anything, even life w/out him. Although I love him dearly still, my heart has been so shattered that I need to protect it.

I am not controlling anymore. Everytime there's a situation that I feel my controlling nature might pop up I think "Is this really worth more than my marriage?" And that usually gives me the answer. We seem to be negotiating pretty well, talking a lot now.

MC has helped a lot. I love our counselor.

Thanks for the link, I will defintaly look at it.

Smiles to you Whaler! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Whaler,

When I clicked on your link for that article I got an error.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

m ... just pop up here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Chill out and enjoy his plan A ... lol! Remember according to MB you just have to let him and guide him to fillin your ENs and avoid LBs ... LU$ will get deposited <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Learn to deposit LU$ to his also <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

-rh-

Dear M,

Glad to hear you are still doing well. The link in the earlier post worked when I tried it, but here is another link to the same article on a different website. Tough Love Article on Controling and Communication by James C. Dobson

Blessings.

<small>[ July 02, 2004, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

Thanks Whaler

It's a very interesting site. H and I talked last night and I asked him if he's spoken to OW lately. He said she called him the other night and they only talked for a minute.

He went on to say that he's scared to tell me about her calling or him talking to any other woman because he fears I'll start trouble with them. I told him that I wouldn't call her, but I will not cowar either.

Whaler, this puts me in a tough position. H knows it upsets me for him to talk to them. But just like I'm trying to rebuild trust in him, he's trying to rebuild trust in me. He also is taking a chance at telling me that he's talking to them.

What do I do? If I were to confront other woman, then he'll stop telling me the truth, which will make him lose trust in my ability to control myself. (I have a slight Italian temper)

My thoughts are this: I will let it go for as long as possible, giving him control. When I feel that I've had enough I will calmly explain to him that I would like to contact OW and explain to her that I would like her to stop calling him. But on the other hand I know how woman think...As soon as they know they're getting to you, they'll pursue harder. If they think it doesn't bother you than it's not so fun anymore.

What do ya think?

Dear M,

There are two parts to honesty, one is that H is giving you honest answers. The other part is for you to be big enough to handle the truth constructively.

There is a balance between over-reacting to contact, and not indicating any precaution at all, like giving a Green Light.

My personal goal is to avoid doing things that I will wish to keep secret from my family.

The boundary that you desire is for H to avoid contact with Women with whom he has been indiscreet in the past, and to avoid indiscretions with any new woman.

The related boundaries are for H to disclose his feelings of need for love to you, so you and he can work out schedules, compromises and feelings, to get close to satiating H's desires.

At the same time, H needs to operationalize some self-discipline. The self-discipline that I find helpful is to avoid saying anything negative about my wife to another woman, at least any other woman with any potential paramour possiblities.

How about ask H to role play what he is going to tell other women about you. Have him practice things for him to say, to give any other woman the idea that H is trying to be true?

How about:

1. My wife has really put in some work on our farm by fixing up ____________.

2. My wife has brought in $XX.00 by selling Goat's milk, but it takes her a lot of work to take care of the goats.

3. I really feel bad that I have hurt my wife in the past, so I am really trying to keep myself on the straight and narrow from now on.

4. I sure hope that I can avoid temptation from now on, as my duaghters get older, it could be tough if I am trying to advise my daughters, and I have been falling off the wagon anytime recently.

5. My wife has really turned things around in our marriage, and I have some things to make back up to her.

Obviously, you will have to re-phrase these ideas to better suit your realities, but these could be a start for you.

I have gotten my wife to practice role-playing sometimes. I need to find ways to improvise, without being formal. "What would you say, if you were already committed, and I asked you for something more?" My wife accepts commitments from her church and relatives, and then neglects the home front.

Creating Role Play situations informally. Boundaries Face to Face, Cloud and Townsend talks about the importance of role playing.

I talked around your question, as usual. Let me know your decision.

Blessings

Hi Whaler,

I read your last post a couple of times and although it's good advise (as usual) it won't work here.

My H is into roll playing, but not on a serious level, if ya know what I mean <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

He won't go for that. This is a tough one, but not nearly as tough as what I've been through so far.

Due to the fact that my H's and I communication channel is so wide open now I feel closer to him than ever. The blockage lies in me asking him what his feelings are for me. I fear the answer, so I am taking the actions he is putting forth as my answer. His actions are that he is also moving closer to me.

I sent him an email revealing my feelings to him, all he said was "that was a very nice email." <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I understand how men are more prone to keeping their feelings inside but I know he expressed his feelings openly to the OW so that puts doubt in my mind about me.

Confusing, confusing, confusing........