RMA:<P>I think you did fine---although you DO need to know when to apply that duct tape to your mouth (especially with the "book" episode---you were fishing there). <P>With the Key West trip, can you be flexible enough to not bother with a "real" answer until you're on the jetway??? I'd do my best to "offer", but not try to pin him down.

Desiree,<P>Read this last night but was too tired to respond. Sounds like you did a good job. Just keep up the good work. <P>Our spouses all trade down. I think it has to do with there low self esteem. They aren't good enough for us so they have to find someone they are better than in order to build that self esteem but they don't build they just sink lower. That is what worries me is that can they build there self esteem without help. I know that will be a big condition to H's return -- Therapy. He needs it!!! Too bad they don't get it now. <BR>Just keep up the good work and limit those questions. <P>------------------<BR>di<P>

Desiree,<P>Just saw this post. If you got my e-mail, you know I have been working on finding my talents again. <P>Sounds like the day went well and you did great. I have the tape though in case you need it. Know what you mean on that. Keep up the good work. I understand he is coming back, great. Maybe he will require another neck rub or ....... Well, you never know.<P>Thoughts are with you today. Hang in there you are doing a good job.

<B>Distressed,</B><P>Thanks for your comments. I asked for them becuase I see a lot of insight in your posts. 40+ books...WOW!! Now I can see why you understand so much of this. I agree with your perspective about alot of this. OK, so our S's have traded down to feel better about themsleves. Pretty much most of us feel that way. OK, so our S's are running away to keep themselves form looking inward at their own lackings, knee-jerk reactions, immature perceptions and poor choices (we ALL have these to some degree). So, our S's are additcted to the OP.<P>Again, the big question comes: When, if ever does the wayward S ever figure this out on their own???? You think when some big event happens. I do agree, but for some, even that may not be enough. I guess it is possible that our S will continue to run forever and escape this introspection forever. That puts us, the waiting S in a bad position that so many are facing now - when to give up??<P>Thanks for your reply. Hope the trip goes well!<P><BR><B>Sheba,</B><P>Yes, our H's still want us in their lives in some capacity here. For sure, your H acts like you will always be there for him. It is like he hasn't even considered the possibility you won't be there. I wonder if my H is doing the same...thinking I will be waiting here forever??? Whack-a-Doodle twins!!!<P><B>Lori,</B><P>Yes, he was noticing everything - first words out of his mouth was about my tan! So, he notices stuff...now what is he going to do about it????? Action, even a baby step, would be so helpful at this point. We need some REAL action. I am still prayinf daily for patience and focus, as Steve Harley told NSR for us to do. I think it has helped me to be a bit more calm about all this, but I still want SOMETHING more. It has been 10 months and I am going a little bit crazy here.... <P><B> Dr. K,</B><P>Properly chastised!!! Yes, Sir!!! I will buy 5 dozens rolls of duct tape to shut up!!!!<P>To clarify about Key West...I had told him I was going on this trip in early Dec. and invited him at the same time I had invited him to come and spend Christmas with us. He never gave me an answer, and I have no brought it up since. <B>HE</B> brought it up yesterday, not me. I really was taken aback, since I thought he had blown it off. At least I know he is thinking about it, whether he goes or not. Most assuredly, I won't bring it up again. I WANT him to go, but I won't press him to go.<P>It was really hard to be friendly and relaxed and talk to him yesterday. I can't ask about his holidays because they werer with the OW. I told him stuff I had been doing. I was afraid to ask too much about his work travel plans, etc., because I didn't want him to think I am "checking up" on him. I can't talk about anything in the future, because that might be seen a s pressure. I was hesitant to talk about the holidays since he chose not to share them with us. I did talk about the kids. I didn't want to talk too much about myself and have him think I was not interested in him anymore and just me. ACH!!! It was good, but hard.<P>Thanks for keeping an eye on me - slap my hand anytime! <P>K, please see the postscript, too.<P><B>Diana and Dev2,</B><P>Thanks for the support. I got both your e-mails and will respond today. <P><B>POSTSCRIPT,</B><P>I saw my regular counselor taody who told me this. He thinks my H still ocmes around to jkeep both me and the OW in the picture. He feels I am still metting some of my H's needs, although doesn't really feel like it on my end, since we have limited contact. He feels if I keep PlanA'ing, in several months, I will <B>STILL</B> be in the sam boat...that my h has her and me, so why should he be incentivized to change????<P>Since it has been 10 months, I kinda have to agree. If I keep PlanAing, nothing will change. I told my counselor I am currently assessing what H does now. I need to see if he will take a step toward that door I opened again when I called and we went on the date 3 weeks ago. Time for him to do a little something here. Is this unreasonable on my part???????????<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

RMA:<P>It's certainly possible that you're both meeting his needs---I think that Harley addresses that somewhere in SAA. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Time for him to do a little something here. Is this unreasonable on my part???????????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, but you should still balance your expectations here. If you're going to be in plan A, you've got to be doing a great job of not lovebusting. After that, you attempt to build romantic love in areas that your husband will allow and be comfortable with. Asking him out on a date, or to Key West---those are fine, if you're pretty sure that they won't be interpreted negatively. If he's neutral or decides "no"---it's your job to say "OK" and move on without lovebusters.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He feels if I keep PlanA'ing, in several months, I will STILL be in the sam eboat...that my h has her and me, so why should he be incentivized to change????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>A perfectly logical thing for a counselor to say, and I'd have you call Dr. Harley or Steve Harley for a real answer. But I'll give you mine in lieu of their's.<P>How are you going to feel if you're in the same boat after several months??? I know that you won't be thrilled, but what if there's some gradual progress? As long as your answer isn't "I'm going to hate him tomorrow [forever]", then you're not ready for plan B. Plan B is for you---when YOU need to protect his balance in your lovebank.<P>What does your counselor suggest as a way to get your husband to change??? For a change to last, your husband must want it. You can threaten him with a divorce, put a gun to his head, kill the OW---all these are implements of "change" in the situation, but not in your husband or in your marriage. A Plan B separation can be used as a tool to further "reinforce" the reality of an affair (and to withdraw meeting your husband's needs), but you need to be effective in Plan A, and you have to be willing to accept the consequences of Plan B. If you've been great in Plan A, then that's step 1. But if you still love your husband a lot---plan B isn't where you ought to be. You're going to wonder if you're doing the right thing---and waffling from Plan A to B to A to B can be very confusing for the betraying spouse (although I do know a couple examples where the marriage was reconciled anyway---but it doesn't help).<P>Plan B is for when it hurts too much, or you feel on most days that you really don't care. That maybe you'd be better off divorced. You don't want to wait too long in Plan A, because then Plan B becomes a quick divorce. But you don't want to dive into plan B for the wrong reasons either.<P>I don't know if any of that made sense to you... if it didn't, I'd suggest that you go to the source.

<B>K,</B><P>Thanks for the explanation. Let me try to give my counselor's perspective:<P>His idea is to divorce my H and we could then date. He feels we need to BURY the old marriage and whatever new relationship we have would start "clean". Remember, my H is still angry at me for the EA.<P>If you remember, right before Christmas H and I met on a Tuesday and talked and he said we were "headed for divorce". He then showed up the next morning and said he wasn't ready for a divorce now - did not plan to file and didn't want me to file. Yet, he NEVER said he would work on the marriage. I even OFFERED at that point for us to divorce and date and he said nothing.<P>So, we are still in limboville here. He is off enjoying himself with OW and I am PlanAing like crazy (finally starting to do it RIGHT, I think!). I knew he would be here today, so I stopped at the liquor store and bought a bottle of his favorite - Jack Daniels. When I came home, I said Hi as nicley as could be, walked by him and patted his back and left him alone. I did NOT ignore him, but left him alone as he was busy at the computer. He started talking to me and then came into the kitchen and I fixed him a drink and we did the newspaper jumble together. We talked - mostly about the kids and grandkids for 1 hr. He gave me the neckrub signal againa nd I rubbed his neck and shoulders and scratched his head, too. Then, he left. No kisses tonight, but it was friendly and no LBs!<P>OK, here are the babysteps I have seen since our date 3 weeks ago: NOTE: REALLY babysteps, but I am supposed to be looking for GRADUAL improvement here, right??<P>* He disconnected the caller ID/answering machine from the business line in the home office because OW would call on the line and I would have to see her number and how many times per day she called. I told him it bothered me and he took it off.<P>* I also told him it bothered me for him to talk to her in our home. So, yesterday and today, he had the cell phone on silent and vibrate and did NOT answer when she called - more than once!<P>* He has been friendly to me and talking to me when we are together. Most times he kisses me. Most times he tells me he loves me if I tell him first.<P>* He has been complimenting me lately. He also has noticed everything about me and my jewelry especially - if I am wearing some jewelry HE gave me (Today - EVERYTHING is his gifts - even the 4 gold bracelets are back on).<P>* Hasn't told me NO yet about the mediated talks or Key West - just says nothing and I am not bringing them up - I don't want him to feel pressured. Also, I stopped telling him I love him everytime like I would normally do, 'cause I don't what him to think I am coming on too strong - that backs him away rightnow. Pressure is a MAJOR LB for him right now.<P>* Hasn't told me No about Steve Harley, either. He's just never mentioned it since we discussed 3 weeks ago.<P>* Told me 2 weeks ago he doesn't want a divorce right now.<P>* Will be here this week and this weekend.<P>OK, so I guess these are positives (am I stretching, here???). I am still VERY MUCH in love with my H. Like you, I feel this is alot like "mental illness - temporary insanity", and I do not feel I can or want to abandon him right now. I have been very compassionate to him, but I have to stifle that because my compassion is a LB to him (told me it makes him feel even more guilty!). <P>But, I must be honest, I have given, given and given for 10 months and I am getting very little return here. Steve told me to monitor my feelings to know when to go to planB. I am not there yet, and if little things happen, I will get very ENCOURAGED. I am strongly assessing what he does now to see how much more I can do. I need some inspiraton and motivation from HIM!! If I get it, I can be even MORE effective in PlanA and I will happily work my butt off some more! <P>Thanks for the words of encouragement. If you see anything else here, please feel free to share your experience or thoughts. I appreciate it very much!!<P>Desiree <P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Desiree,<P>I'm a little late tonight, I was trying to install a new CD in my comp. didn't work, Two hours wasted.<P>Anyhow. I too get overly encouraged when I see little things. It's like you can see a light and the TV and maybe even their feet hanging off the recliner, through the window, but the won't get up to answer the door.<P>Robins biggest thing is fear. Fear of things not changing, fear of paying her tab, fear of her own pain, the list goes on. So she stays cooped up watching the tube so she doesn't have to get off her [censored] and see what waiting at the door.<P>Her stupid taker doesn't realise it's her charming husband bareing flowers, a card, a box of chocolate, and an awsome new attitude when it comes to her.<P>I'd say he is desperatly trying to justify not opening the door. Like Steve told me I have to make it safe for her <B>feelings</B> to want to let me in again.<P>I too am working on not LBing. I have come to realise by reading Love Busters that I am a walking LB. So I have to do a 180, show some consistancy then start to make deposits.<P>I keep a roll of duct tape in each pocket in cas the filter between my brain and my mouth can't handle the onslaught of sick thought coming out.<P>Wow I'm really waxing metiphoricly tonight. I hope all that made sence.<P>6 kids you are a lucky woman. Robin and I planned to have a large family. In fact we should be 5 months pregnant now. Damn I'm starting to bring myself down so I'll stop.<P>In case no one told you they loved you today, I do.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Hi Desiree,<P>I know what you mean when you say you're confused about how long to do the Plan A thing. The Plan A concept does seem to only continue 'enabling' their behavior. They have OW, but when THEY feel the need, they come running to us to get the needs we provide met. Yet, they give US nothing in return. They do have the best of both worlds, so why should they change anything?<P>The doctor (who has 20 years of experience treating addiction) whom I met with yesterday, in so many words, told me I should be in a Plan B. By not setting limits, and standing my ground, I am 'enabling' H to continue his selfish behavior. He said that H would probably have to hit rock bottom before HE would seek out some help. By me continuing to be his 'safety net', H will never bottom out. This just made an incredible amount of sense to me. And, the scary part, was, that when H bottoms out, he may not even seek help then! This doctor said that until H gets some help and addresses his primary problem (he doesn't love himself thus he is trying to fill the emptiness with the affair), this would happen again. So, in effect, I could possibly wait a very long time for him to crash, & then, he may or may not accept help. If he doesn't, then there really is no chance for our marriage, in the long run. <P>The one thing that has always bothered me about the Harley method, is that it doesn't seem to focus on the need for the betrayer to resolve the problem within themselves that lead to the addiction. It seems to assume that the primary cause of the affair is a problem(s)within the marriage. Yes, most marriages have problems, but I think that most addictive behavior goes much deeper than that.<P>It's just so very hard to know what to do.

<B>Bill,</B><P>Too bad about the CD player. Don't you just hate it when things that should be simple don't work and frustrate you to death????<P>OK, I really like your analogy about the recliner and watching TV and us being at the door ringing and knowing and laden with gifts. Actually, that is about right!<P>Fear is a major component of infidelity - fear to face the facts, fear of change and fear of looking inside and finding yourself wanting. I think this fear is experienced by BOTH the infidel and the betrayed, sometimes.<P>I feel that many people on this forum are facing themselves and finding some areas for improvement. What is so darn frustrating for people like you, me, sidney, Diana, Jim, etc. is that our S's aren't with us and we can barely get any (if any at all!) time to show how hard we are working, any improvements made, and how motivated we are to be a better spouse to our partner, for THEIR benefit. Of course, we benefit, too, since we would ostensibly be in a better, more intimate relationship.<P>I am, as I said earlier, just assessing my H for some signs here that he is "over the crisis hump" and willing to make some positive moves toward "us", even if they are babysteps. I mean, I have opened the door and laid everything at his feet. Now, he has to decide if he will walk toward that door or not. At this point, I am not even asking him to walk inside, just walk toward the door.<P>ACH!!!! This stuff drives me CRAZY!!!<P>Yes, the 180 degree thing is alot of what not LBing means. We need to see those things that annoy our S and stop and we also need to stop the things that don't work. Why continue to sdo something over and over if you don't get the desired results??? Do something different.<P>Thanks for the kindest words, Bill! Keep the duct tape handy, too! <P><B>sidney,</B><P>Yes, that is where I am. I talked to Steve Harley some about the doormat issue and you also saw NSR/Jim's post, too. Basically, I am going to do this for awhile longer. I do NOT expect that PlanAing my H will make him give up the affair. I would love for that to happen, but don't think it will.<P>I am,however, needing some signs from my H that he has enough interest here to keep me involved. What has been happening has been such a little anything from him, that I don't think I could really stay in this much longer. Your Dr was right about the enabling - it certainly echos what my regular counselor feels. My H will not stop unless something changes:<P>1) relationship with OP crumbles<BR>2) I totally back out and he feels he can't live without me and wants me back<P>As I told Bill, I will have to see what he does next. If nothing, then that is an answer from him in a roundabout way. He has to do some little thing here to keep me going. I am looking at EVERYTHING to be sure I don't miss any positive signs (see above - maybe they're stretches, don't know!).<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>