What if he really has hated me for several years? For years he has acted like little I had to say was of any interest or importance to him. If I asked him a question that he thought I should know the answer to, he acted like I was a stupid idiot. If I asked him a question that he did not know the answer to, he acted like I was a stupid idiot for asking. I do not remember him ever, even once, saying he was sorry for anything he had done, except for simple accidents like bumping into me. For years I have felt like I was walking on eggshells to keep him from getting angry or at a minimum terribly irritated- not that he was only angry at me, he also blew up at the kids. If I asked him if he was angry at me, he would usually deny it.<P>Yet during these years, he was always there for me and the kids in some ways. He went with me to see a comatose relative, when I am sure that is the last place he wanted to be. Maybe he did such things out of a sense of responsibility, rather than the love that I thought it was, and then just added it to his list of things to be resentful of. <P>I thought he was unhappy because his job was stressful and sometimes awful (which was), and because our financial situation looked like it could only get worse, and perhaps because he was "kicking himself", as he said, for having given up job and home to start a new career which didn't work out financially. I thought he was chronically depressed. I thought the reason he went through a couple of years when he would frequently yell at his co-workers, so much so that they were afraid to ask him for help - was because he was unhappy and stressed by his job. I thought he was irritable at home during that period because of job stress - but maybe he was irritable at work because he hated his home life. I thought he was not very verbally affectionate because he didn't verbalize his feelings - after all, I don't remember him ever telling the kids he loved them unless they said it first, until after he left. But maybe his frequent irritability has been, not because of depression, but because he hated me and wanted to be rid of me for years. Maybe he acted like he thought I was a stupid idiot because he did think I was a stupid idiot. I said something to him after he left about how I had continually hoped that he would be happy, if only he had a job he liked, or enough money, or found the right place to live - and he never was. He told me that he had come to the conclusion that the reason he was never happy was that he could never be happy in a relationship with me. Maybe it really is the fact that he didn't like me that was making him unhappy. I guess the question is whether he was depressed and blamed me for it, or whether being married to me was making him depressed.

Nellie, if you believe happiness or a sense of peace comes from within and is a choice that you work on and manage, then your H put himself in his own bad place. Now or somewhere in time he may have become clinically depressed or have some other mental disorder.<P>If you were not physically or emotionally abusive to your H (and I'm sure you weren't) then I think the healthy thing to do is take the attitude that you did the best with what you had to work with and look ahead rather than behind.<P>It is up to you to create your own happiness or sense of peace now. Sure you have to grieve your loses and fully experience your anger, but it is time to work toward a future rather than getting dragged down by a past you can not change.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

FHL,<BR>I asked my H a few months ago if, during our marriage, I had acted like I loved him, and he said I did. But apparently that was not enough - <P>It would be hard enough to find peace if a person you loved and trusted completely left you and disappeared out of your life all together. But it is well nigh impossible when you have to continue to deal with him, directly or indirectly, as he makes his hatred and distain for you so obvious. And to know that I will have to continue to deal with him for at least the next 14 years, and probably for the rest of my/his life - when I have no idea what I could have done to make him hate me so much - is more than I can take. They say it gets easier with time, but that is not true in my case - every day is harder than the day before, every time he is civil for a week or two, he then feels the need to do something to hurt me, either directly or by withdrawing further from the kids, even more.

Nellie,<P>I am not for one second dismissing your pain or trivializing your situation, especially with all of your young children. It is a horrible situation to be in and my heart goes out to you. <P>However, what are your choices? There are six children to raise...you are their mother. Their father is at least acting like a loser and a jerk (don't want to name call). You can either let him drag you down with him or you can work toward a better future. It won't be easy and of course he will be a part of your life like a bad rash, but you can work toward cutting your emotional ties to this man for your own sake as well as the sake of your children.<P>This man is sick or cruel or both. Trying to figure out why is just not going to help at this point. Living as best you can and working toward a brighter future emotionally will help.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Nellie,<BR>I can understand what you are going through as I have some of the same doubts about my stbx.<P>She said she has been unhappy for years and that she used to cry herself to sleep at night because she was so unhappy. I never saw this once. Then looking back I see patterns developing. She would never stay up at night. She started going to bed and reading and once she was reading was noncomunicative. WHen she worked at night she would stay up and asked me not to wait up for her.<P>Our sex life was diminishing unless she wanted it. And then it was quick and rather passionless. It seemed like me just servicing her. Very few times was I the receipant. I was normally the giver unless she had a few drinks.<P>So I try not to dwell on the past because our experiences of our spouse affairs throws everything in a bad light. So now, I am just concentrating on myself and my kids. I am not looking back, I am looking ahead. <P>I strongly recommend you do the same.<P>God Bless,<P>Bob

RWD,<P>I am sorry, but I do not want to look ahead. I do not want to look ahead to having my being alone every other weekend for the rest of my kids' childhoods. I do not want to look ahead to never being able to stand up for what I think is right with respect to the kids, knowing that everytime we disagree he is likely to threaten me with legal action - whether he would win or not is not the issue - I don't have the financial or emotional resources to spend my life fighting him in court. I do not want to look ahead to spending the rest of my life having to deal with someone who hates me. <P>This is probably the first time in my life that someone has hated me - and it has to be someone I love. My boss often used to ask me to deal with the difficult people, because I didn't have trouble getting along with them. I would not be able to work with someone who hated me as much as he does - how can I coparent with him?<P>FHL,<BR>I appreciate that you are attempting to encourage me. Even if I could somehow cut all emotional ties to this man, his hatred would still be there. When I read about people who have lost their spouses to illness or accident, I can not help being so envious. At least they are left with good memories.

Nellie,<BR>I know what you mean. I have said over and over it would be easier to get over this if I didn't have to deal with my ex every week. I think it would be easier to lose them to death, at least that would give you closure and acceptance. One of the hardest things for me is that someone who seemed to love me so much could hate me so much now and act like anything is better than being married to me. That is more of a betrayel than the actual affair. The fact that he cheated on be is hard enough, but that would be a piece of cake to deal with compared to the fact that he has completely turned against me and wants nothing to do with me. However, we do have to hang on for our children and give them the best life we possibly can. Granted, its not the life we wanted for them, but they are all we have now and they will be what keeps us going.<P>AD

AD,<BR>I was just telling a friend of mine that it would be easier if my H had died. I know that it sounds horrible, but it is true. At this point I don't know how my H feels about me. One minute he's hugging me and the next he acts like he hates me more than anything. I say it's the guilt. <BR>Nellie,<BR>It's your husband's fault he feels the way he does. He's trying to justify his behavior and is doing that by blaming you. It's nothing about you. It's all about how he feels about himself. Keep your chin up dear. And if you haven't been to a DR, go and get something for your depression. I can hear it in your posts. It breaks my heart that you are in so much pain. Please take care of yourself and your children.<BR>My prayers are with you,<BR>Mitzi

Nellie,<P>The reasons for your h's unhappiness could be the cumulative effect of many of the things you mentioned. In particular, many books tell how a man defines himself by his career successes. If your H has had many disappointments there, it could be a major cause of his depression or dissatisfaction or whatever you want to call it.<P>Look at my thread - Distressed gives a wonderful overview of how some S's - she was talking in particular about H's, but I think this applies to some W's, too - are not able to deal with these feelings and RUN and look to place the blame anywhere but on themselves, to avoid having to do the introspection.<P>FHL makes some great points to you. So what if you figure it all out?? You know exactly what your H felt and what he thought and why he did this or didn't do that. So what????<P>He is still gone and still being really mean to you. For the sake of your children, somehow you and your H need to be able to communicate more effectively than is currently happening.<P>Please try to get beyond the hurt you are currently experiencing. I know he has hurt you greatly. But, you and he are having a negative communication style and interactions. Is it possible that you are inadvertently feeding his negativity????? I am not trying to add to your hurt, in any way. I am only asking you to look at your own style to see if you are adding any fuel to the fire.<P>You can NOT change him. However, if you can change your interaction and communication style with him, maybe he will change his interactions back to you.<P>Something to think about....<P>Roll Me Away <P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Hi Nellie,<P>One never knows what the future will hold. What might happen is that you find your self awake one day a year or two from now not even thinking about your H. Then you find that you have friends that you see when the children are at his house. Next you find out that life is not so good at his house. Lets face it even if they do live the rest of their lives together they were united under lies. They will always have to live with this. <P>Even if you never date again I am sure once your go through this trial you will be stronger and happier. I would not think he hated you maybe he hated your strength and ability to cope and deal with the situation. You your self said that you home schooled two childern who are now in college at an early age. Plus you deal with a hyper active child. All this and you have time for everything and everyone else. Have you ever took the time to think that maybe he does not hate you but he hates his own weakness. By being with another weak person he is not reminded that he is less than perfect.

None of us have the luxury of not looking ahead. Life goes on.<P>You have a life ahead of you. Yes your H made it much harder than it should be.<P>Unfortunetly what should be is not what is. For your sake and the sake of your children, you need to deal effectively with what is, regardless of what your H does.<P>Your children are depending on you. If you need help, get it for yourself.<P>And be careful of always or nevers. I doubt if your H will always have enough energy to concentrate on making your life a living hell. Eventually it will get better.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Nellie 1<P>I have been there Nellie, and I know that I am not responsible for my husband's unhappiness. There are things I could have done differently but with my husband we now believe he was depressed all his life although it did not become pronounced until his father passed away 9+ years ago and then he faced a career set back of major proportions. (At which time he started antidepressants)Come to find out my husband's fathers entire family has depression and no one would talk about it.<BR>I believe the reason my husband feels so bad about us is he views the relationship through a lens of depression. Depression robs you of memories especially good ones and the negative remains.I also contribute it to the fact that he dumped his garbage on me for many years as I would listen endlessly to his hurt, fears, pain, etc. Somewhere along the line the garbage man (me) became the garbage. I did the best I could. I couldn't understand that the man who was once so in love with me treated me more and more like I had no value. I should have called him on it but there were times when either he was just to sharp verbally and I couldn't win or he was so fragile that I didn't dare. <BR>I know that his affairs were his choice to anestisize the pain in himself. I just wish he would stick around and give us a try. I know with counseling it could get better, especially if we both trusted God for the result.<BR>Nellie, I believe you can't save him and you can't change him. You can work on yourself and not lose yourself in the process. I know this is hard with six kids, but it will help you to feel better about you. Focus on making yourself the best you can be and take some time for yourself even if it is ten minutes locked in the bathroom for a bath or to read a book for ten minutes. Pray for your husband. You can't change him, but God can.<BR> Nellie you will get through this but you shouldn't take the blame. Some people just can't be happy. When they are unhappy with themselves no one is good enough for them, because in truth they are just trying to get out of their own way. God Bless

AD,<BR>You are right that the hardest part to deal with is the hatred. And it always seems to be the betrayers who you would least expect to betray who seem to be the most mean. I don't recall reading too many stories of serial betrayers, for instance, displaying such hatred toward their spouses.<BR>Mitzi,<BR>It is not so much that I don't realize that this is really about him; I wish I could have realized 25 years ago that he was prone to depression. I remember worrying about his unhappiness when we had only been dating six months or so, but he and I both attributed it to his job, which involved rotating shifts which is obviously hard on one's biological clock.<BR>Roll Me Away,<BR>I am not sure I understand what you mean about feeding his negativity. My older children have told me several times that I am way too nice too him, that I should just tell him off. Maybe they are right. Maybe he is angry because I am not providing him with any support for his contention that we "don't get along". Or maybe he is just angry because I contested the divorce. <BR>Pahakissa1,<BR>Maybe there is something to what you say. I long ago learned that I had to be careful not to say anything that could possibly be interpreted as showing confidence in my abilities or accomplishments, because he would accuse me of being conceited. There were many things about him I admired, and I thought I let him know that. It got so I hated asking him for advice, because if he didn't know the answer to my question he would get so irritated at me for asking it.<BR>FHL,<BR>I wish I could see so hope that he wouldn't always be like this, but it has gotten worse and worse as time goes on.<BR>hw,<BR>Yes, I think he is seeing things through a lens of depression. My H lost his mother 6 years ago, and also faced a major career/financial setback a couple of years later, which intensified over the couple of years preceeding the beginning of his affair. Sometimes it seems so unfair - I lost both my parents within six months of each other when I was 25 - and I managed to keep going - during the next year I finished my master's, and we got married, moved across the country, I found a new job, and a little over a year after my mother died we had our first child.

Nellie,<BR>Your H sounds alot like my stbx. She too was never happy, even when I met her there was always something she was mad about and always searching for something. <P>We never paid an auto off, just when we would be getting close, she would want another one. Same with household decorations. She would start collecting something, then bang, she didn't like them anymore.<P>She said she hated sporting events. She used to watch me play softball but quit. Then with the kids, she hardly ever watched them swim because she worked and she never tried to rearrange her schedule for them. I didn't car that she didn't watch me, but not the kids!<P>As far as her being angry at me after discovery. She used to get right up in my face. If she had been a guy I would have hit her. Now when ever I ask her anything monetarily, she gets mad and says all I want is her money. Meanwhile she is going to Fl next week. I suppose om or his mother is paying but I know she went out and bought clothes. Why can't she take her responsibility. She has done nothing for the kids. She has bought them some clothes and cooked a few, very few meals, has not washed their clothes for 6 months. I have done all of that. I buy all the groceries, etc.<P>What I am trying to say is I'm not responsible for her feelings and actions anymore than you are for your H's. I believe it is guilt and justification on there part. After all, how can they justify the affair if they love us. They can't, so they find a reason to blame us or try to make us hate them. I think my stbx was trying to get me to file first so she could say I divorced her. When I had enough, I did file. I don't care what people think.<P>Please hang in there. You will have set backs, but time will improve things.<P>God Bless,<P>Bob

Nellie,<P>I read this book titled "The Solo partner" by Phil Deluca - same one I recommended to Sheryl and David. There is a large portion dealing with action-interaction cycles and communication dynamics.<P>It is possible that he says something - you say something back - whatever order - and this triggers some bad feelings on one of both parts. There needs to be a break in the pattern.<P>I am wondering if this relates to you and your H. Some predictable communication pattern or style that could be changed forthe better..........<P>Roll Me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Wow, it sounds like I could have written that! Don't beat yourself up about it, it's his choice to leave and maybe the EMA will fizzle.<P>I do think it is guilt. I never saw it coming. He was always a good h, though he did start treating me like I was stupid ( and believe me I'm probably way smarter). He was also so emotionally cold that I felt like he hated me. I asked him many times why???<P>About one month BEFORE I knew of the affair, I finally got up the guts to ask why he was being so cold. He said he thought the depression he had been through was due to work, but then realized he no longer loved me. WHAM! Later, it was that he thought he had never loved me for who I am, only what he thought I could become???<P>But I think it was all part of the addiction and the guilt. Because he almost left, but then did a 180, told all and said he believed Harley, that it could be fixed. Still acted like he hated me for the next weeks. But then suddenly, he made it through withdrawal and now has told me I'm the best thing that ever happened to him, always was. But while he was in it, he read his own diaries about how in love he was with me with total disbelief!!!<P>And I've learned I wasn't doing a great job of meeting his needs. He faced horrible pressure at work, then would come home to more pressure. I didn't understand he needed to come home and relax for a half hour before I handed him the kids (4 and 2 and wild). I didn't understand because he never told me. We were guessing what the other needed. Thank God for those Harley questionnaires. The sad thing is we had read His Needs/Her Needs years ago but thought we were "fine", especially him.

RWD,<BR>My H never seemed satisfied either - with where we were living, with his job, etc. And then he decided he had never been satisfied with our marriage.<P>Roll Me Away,<BR>Thanks for the reference to the book. It is hard to communicate better when communication is so limited - probably averaging 10-15 sentences each per week, including email.<BR>schizzo,<BR>Sometimes I think it is his guilt talking - so often he is especially mean just before or after he does something he is feeling guilty about.

Nellie,<P>I think I shared the glaring similarities in our situations, but then got distracted. The point I was trying to make was don't beat yourself up wondering if he was always miserable, etc. My h said a lot of dumb, hurtful things during that time which he now feels bad about. After he came out of withdrawal, he volunteered that it must have been part of the "confusion" and that I was the best thing that ever happened to him.<P>So don't let his "hatred" cast a shadow back on all the years you spent. He is sick now, you must keep living? BTW, does he also accuse you of being clingy?? Just checking. My h told me he didn't want me to beg him to stay so I determined I wouldn't, and suddenly I found a new strength that helped me, but that he also found attractive.<P>The best thing is to be a princess when you have to meet with him. If you have to vent here first, great, but be cool and reserved, and look your best. Let him see a woman who is sure of herself (even though we often aren't), give him a taste of what he's lost.<P>You know the best thing about all this for me has been that the "work" I needed to do on our marriage is exactly what I needed to start doing for myself anyway. I was caught in the loop of living like a maid to this family. No more! So I'm working on myself, can't lose there. And if this really fills his lovebank and it seems to be working well, he will be really in love with me. If that doesn't translate into treating me right, so much the worse for him if I end up leaving. A bit sadistic, huh?

Hi Nellie -<P>You just hit the nail on the head with your reply to schizzo in your last post.<P>IT IS HIS GUILT!!!!<P>I don't often speak of the particulars of the years before my H moved out...they are something that I exorcised out of my system with the letter I compiled on here with Chris - do you remember when I did that?<P>In those years (and even occassionally since) my H showed a hatred towards me that I never knew a human good possess!!<P>He would say things to me that were beyond cruel....with such venom!!! He despised me.....he loathed me....it was like I was the cootie-monster and he couldn't stand the sight of me!!!<P>He would lash out about anything!!! What I said, did, didn't do, how I slept, how I ate, how I sat!!! Things I wore, hairstyle, my shoes!! Things he had said he loved - he now hated and were stupid....I was stupid!!! He would say all this with such an absolutely dead pair of eyes!! It was the scariest part of this for me....those cold, dead eyes!!!<P>This went on for years, He played on my guilt from the accident and had me hopping around like a bunny trying to "fix" all this things that now bothered him!!!! Talk about walking on eggshells.......heck I was trying to jump on them!!!!<P>It was one of only two times in my life where I suffered from a mini identity crisis.... The other was when my Dad died and work gave me a very hard time!!<BR>For that one...something broke in me - I came out of that with a voice that cracks every once in a while!!!<P>Anyway, my point to you is during this "hate" time with H.....I was depressed!!<BR>I didn't know it then.....just knew that H was different and I had to question everything about me....about him...about the marriage!!!! What was real? What isn't real? <P>I can remember all to vividly the words, the tone of voice and those god-awful stares!!!!!<P>The problem was not me...or the marriage!! Sure there were things that needed work.....the problem was HIM!!!<P>HE was going through some internal struggle and he didn't like it!!! He didn't want to face and deal with it so he turned it around onto me!!! That is what it comes down to Nellie!! He is having a struggle internally with the good, responsible caring man and the "I want more with no effort" man!!!!<P>My husband was not really one to take stock of his feelings or emotions...not without a little prompting anyway. He was raised and taught that way....only OK to show anger or difference of opinion.....certainly not love, care or concern. He was shown - If possible you blame someone else and if not ignore any reference to your faults!!<P>Even though he knew (when he used the brain God gave him) that this lesson from his folks was wrong.....perhaps it is easier to be lazy with your reactions to feelings of unhappiness than to analyze them and learn about creating your own happiness from within and contribute some positive change to the sources from without!!<P>Sounds like your H has been restless within himself.....not happy with job, home, you, pressures, stress, etc....<BR>He doesn't seem to be the overly exuberant type who is in touch and vocal with his feelings and emotions either!!<P>I think that like mine....he is probabl a decent guy who knows his responsibilities, what is right and wrong, wants to do what is right - BUT - cannot understand the restlessness and unhappiness he felt/feels and just wants those feelings gone!!!! If he thinks like my H, he runs to find something that takes those feelings away!! Hence the OWs!!!! <P>The problem is they still have the roots of those feelings in them....they haven't dealt with their cause!! He may seem like he is so happy now....but those roots will resurface and come above ground in some form again and again until HE addresses them!!!<P>In the meantime - we are left with this men who are good inside and very BAD on the outside!!!! They are struggling with themselves even more now because of the pain and destruction they have caused to us.....so - true to form they have to squelch the "guilt" feelings with turning it around to our fault!!!<P>Nellie....IT IS NOT YOU!!!! IT IS NOT ME!!!! IT IS THEM!!!!<P>There is nothing that we can do to stop what they are doing....they have a lot of thinking to do and that will take time if they allow themselves to begin at all!!!<P>Our role in this is to take a look at ourselves and address our own "feelings"! Just like them, we HAVE to think them through....find our happiness!!!!! That part is no different from theirs!!!<P>I DID THAT!!!! I was in the same place you are now (without the child factor) and you are numb with all this.. ..paralyzed with any forward motion for yourself......it's not good and definitely not healthy!!!!<P>Like some replies to you have said....YOU have to move forward!!<P>Nothing can be done about what H says or does by you directly. The way he is now is not how he will always be....things change as we have so devastatingly found out!!!! <P>You said you need a better financial position and a lawyer to protect you and the kids.....well, that's the goal!!!<P>Nobody wants court battles....you don't have to have them either, but you should be as prepared for the possibility as you can. <P>How is the part-time job going? Do you like it? Have you made friends there? Is it fitting in well with your schedule for the kids? These are the things that you should concentrate on - not H!!!<P>I look at it that my H is on sabbatical from his brain!!! In the meantime I have to live and be happy - I am NOT JUST his wife!!! I am a person with my own thoughts, things that Interest me, Finances that I HAVE to get a hold on!!<BR>What do I need to do to live like I want? <P>You are not JUST his wife...or JUST the mother of his children!!! YOU have a heart, brain and a soul that NEED to be alive!!!!! The kids are affected but as this has gone on - do you see how they still do their "kid" things? They can still laugh at the silly cartoons or a funny story!!! They can still think of other things....other happy things!!<P>So can YOU!!!! And you MUST!!! Not only for your own sake, but for theirs!<BR>And even for your H's in a way!!! <P>Forget worrying about his words, etc. Start directing your thoughts as if he is without a brain....<P>Discuss the children as rationally as possible without a tug of war. Stick to what you want for the children with loving conviction based on common sense and what is best for them....<P>I don't know how you interact with your H - whether you waffle, try to convince, plead, or fight so I can't say what might work better.....think about it and try a different approach if you can.<P>The coparenting is the hardest part of this for you - I KNOW that your kids are the most important to you. Having OW input has got to be the most maddening thing in the world and I stand in awe of you and so many who do it....God Bless you!! You have a strength that I will never come close to!!!<P>Nellie, I care about you soooo much!! I hate having to watch what is happening to you and the kids. I hate that H is so lost with himself and deluted by this woman..... I can't make it go away or I would!!! I CAN be here to help you work it through the best way possible though!!! All of us want that for you!!<P>It saddens me - I looked back through your threads on MB and you are still caught in the pain and devastation of it all.....YOUR LIFE is going on whether you want it to or not and you need to catch up and start enjoying what YOU DO HAVE in front of you. Retrospection is great to figure out YOUR areas of improvement - then you start with the visualization of the future!!! THAT is to become a HAPPY person to go with that Caring Mom thing you have going on!!<P>If H finds his brain someday...well, all the better!!!<P>We Love You and Are here for you....LET US HELP by allowing our suggestions to move you forward!!!<P>HUGS, PRAYERS AND STRENGTH,<BR> <BR>Sheba

Sheba, thanks and you are so right. I hope Nellie reads it carefully, I certainly did.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The problem is they still have the roots of those feelings in them....they haven't dealt with their cause!! He may seem like he is so happy now....but those roots will resurface and come above ground in some form again and again until HE addresses them!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So what the heck are the root causes???? If you have a chance, read my post on "what do you think". My h is really trying and I want to help, but there are many signs he is still unhappy. And it is not over the OW. Even that was a symptom, like you said; somewhere he went to feel better.