Holly,<P>My husband has said the same thing to me that you stated above "If you want to leave, If you love someone else, there's nothing I can do about it. Go ahead." Last night we talked about this thread and he re-iterated that point. <P>I finally told him 'Yes there is something you can do! You can tell me you want me, that you want me to stay, that you can't live without me! that's what I want to hear! It would make all the difference!'<P>And he looked at me and said, 'That's all? I do feel that way, but I figured that if you wanted to go, I might as well give you what you want.'<P>It seems I didn't realize that I was gaging his reactions and using it to measure how much I thought he loved me. And he didn't realize that he had the ability to change my feeelings just by changing his reactions. We talked about this for quite a while last night. <P>I'm not sure if this will make any sense, or even be relevant to you. But it seemed like a breakthrough for us anyway.----tamis<BR>

Tamis--<BR>That makes a lot of sense to me...maybe my H doesn't realize he can change the way I feel by what he does.<P>But also, I think he feels that I shouldn't want to change him and the way he deals with me. I think that to him I should accept the way he is and why should he have to change if it's not really natural to him. Basically, why should he have to put on a front...he is who he is and that's that.<P>It's difficult for me to explain...<P>I'm glad you're having a breakthough!

Pam (btw, "Holly" is a cute name for a dog!)--<P>That "he is who he is" thing is a trap we've all fallen into!! I know that's the way I used to think! I think the line "you should love me the way I am" is pretty destructive. It means "no work is required"... So very untrue.<P>My wife and I talked about this before - couples should go through "marriage training" before getting married, and if they don't pass the course, they can't get married. And one of the subjects that would be taught in class is - Marriage is a process of change!<P>--andy

Airheart--<BR>I got married in a catholic church and had to go to this "marriage training" called Precana before the wedding...my husband and I went unwillingly and took it as a total joke! I wish I had taken it more seriously now.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He<BR> actually sat there playing solitare on the computer and told me if I wanted to leave<BR> than leave.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>My H is the one having an affair, but your H's behavior reminds me of his. During the affair and for several months preceeding it, he spent virtually all his spare time sitting in front of the computer playing games. He sat there and played solitaire a couple of months ago while we were discussing the fact that he wanted me to agree to not contest the divorce and speed it up, a subject I would have thought he would want to concentrate on.<BR>I agree that your H seems to be in extreme protective mode.<BR>

While I'd agree that Holly's H is in protective mode, he is sure going overboard with it. But hey, he IS a guy, and emotional connectedness is not exactly our strong suit. <P>What I think is more curious is this: There seems to be a feeling that if Holly's H doesn't make an effort to shape up, and Holly ends up in another affair out of desparation to be loved, then H is, at least, a teeny, tiny bit responsible.<P>Whoa! Pretty close to blasphemy around these parts!

To different folks...<P>New Woman,<P>Please post your success story, Holly and Tamis need some encouragement from your experience.<P>Maya,<P>I'm so glad things are improving! You've really shown a lot of character over the past few months.<BR>

Holly!<P>I love what airheart said! He's got it! He's really got it.!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>That "he is who he is" thing is a trap we've all fallen into!! I know that's the way I used to think! I think the line "you should love me the way I am" is pretty destructive. It means "no work is required"... So very untrue.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>TNT<P>

I sometimes wonder if the institution of marriage itself isn't deadly to passion. I know people don't like to hear this, and there's even a book called "Passionate Marriage" which promotes the idea that it is possible to discover (or rediscover) sexual passion in your marriage. But this just doesn't seem to be the experience of most people whose stories I've heard or read (with a few exeptions, granted). It certainly isn't my experience, though I will say that the sexual passion lasted longer in my 1st marriage than it has in my 2nd. (Which I got into mainly for just that reason, expecting it would last at least a few years!) I don't know. Maybe sex NEEDS to be illicit for it really to be exciting. I think (in one way or another) that this is what drives many spouses (like my W) to cheat. The lovemaking is just more exciting that way (and I include cheaters who think they're having their affairs out of real love for the OP). Marriage legitimizes sex and that's the whole problem. A very wise commedienne once said,"If you think sex isn't dirty, you're probably doing it wrong." Wise words,<P>--Wex

This is a great thread.<P>Tamis,<P>I also posted to you over on the Emotional Needs forum on your "brother/sister mode" thread. As I said, my H used to be a stone. Trying to talk to him was like talking to a brick wall. Unfortunately, it took the revelation of our respective affairs to finally chip away at that wall. I distinctly say "chip away," because even with this crisis, my H's opening up has been a process. It didn't happen all at once. As a matter of fact, it is still an ongoing process. He has gotten so, so much better than I'd ever thought possible, but he still has those tendencies to avoid conflict and close up. It's something that may be an never ending challenge for him. But I try hard to be understanding about it. As long as I see effort on his part, then I'm okay, and that's a big change for me. I'm so much of a now person, and patience has never been my forte. I think I've grown tremendously as a person as a result. Patience is a virtue, as they say.<P>Holly,<P>I'd try the counseling again with a DIFFERENT therapist. It sounds like you had a very ineffective one, and that really stinks. Sometimes, I think that we should be able to file malpractice suits against ineffective or counselors and therapists who give detrimental advice. They can do as much damage as a medical quack, in my opinion. <P>My H used to say things somewhat similar to what your H is saying now, but that was before our respective affairs were revealed. Once he found out that I almost did fall in love with someone else, he changed his tune. Since then, he has and continues to try so hard to fulfill my needs and make me feel wanted, desired and needed. I really don't understand your H still being so distant when he knows how close he came to losing you. Or does he really know? How much about your affair does he know? It sounds like he hasn't asked any questions, and maybe he really hasn't grasped everything or is still in denial. And that's where counseling comes in. It might provide the safe environment to really discuss your issues. Sweeping things under the carpet can be a death wish to marriages.<P>Doug,<P>I hope Holly isn't getting the same impression, that it'd be her H's fault if she had another affair. That is blasphemy, not just here, but anywhere. If she or anyone else stoops low enough to have an affair, it's no one else's fault but their own, regardless of what their spouse is or isn't doing. There is nothing my H could do or not do to make me go back there again. I'd leave first. In a heartbeat. I hope Holly and everyone else knows that we all deserve a healthy, safe and loving relationships. An affair doesn't even come close to being that.<P>Wex,<P>Unfortunately, I think you have some valid points about the thrill of illicit sex vs. marital sex. And you may be very right that no matter how much an unfaithful spouse claims "love" to be the driving force in their affairs, the sexual dynamics, whether acted out or fantasized about, probably has just as much impact. Won't be able to get many people who say they "love" the OP to admit that, though. <P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Passion, wow that is exactly what my W says is the problem. Basically she has said that is the only reason she does not want to work on our marriage. She says she never had the appropriate passion since the start. Could be just her affair talking, but those butterflies/arousal for her, I do not think were there in the beginning. We started as friends and gradually got to what the therapist calls "mature love". I tend to think of it on her part as maybe brother/sister like someone else posted. I am really confused/concerned about this passion topic. Her affair started because those feeling were reawakened in her (her words) said she never thought she could feel that way again. For her the emotional connection/click was first but the physical arousal followed right after that (even though the OM is not a 'looker'). Just like the books talk about. Holly, or anyone else - it sounds like that type of passion cannot be duplicated or met in a reconciliation or in a marriage over 3? years like wex said. Do any of you think the plan for romantic love Dr. Harley talks about could actually bring a level of passion close to that initial passion?

Holly,<BR>I can't speak for your husband and don't know his background, but I wouldn't jump to assuming he's in 'protective' mode or denyoing his emotions. He may just be refusing to be manipulated and play your game.<BR>You had the affair not him. You want him to be emotional responsive so you don't commit anothe affair or leave him? Now you're shocked he won't platy along and reaffirm his love for you???<BR>Excuse me but you need to do the eotional expressing. Its called repentance and sorrow. Two years into a marriage and you already strayed? From his point of view he's got nothing to lose. I hope to God you don't have any children and you make certain you don't bring any children into this mess.<BR>Also, has have you considered that your husband doesn't believe you had an affair? He might think you made it up to get his attention. Some women do, and he may think its all a mind game. I had a friend who didn't believe his wife had ever cheated on him even. He finally believed it when he saw it. How wonderful.<BR>Re: passion does change and flux in marriage. The first year is different, the infatuation does fade but the passion of love will grow. You have to learn how to be a lover to your spouse. Practicing with others won't help and being good at sex isn't the secert its being good at his desires that's the secret.

KAM--<BR>I'm not playing any mind games with my husband...what I did wasn't calculated or planned! <P>I don't think straying after two years in a marriage is any worse than straying twenty years into a marriage.<P>By the way...I'm here to look for advice, not to be judged!

KAM< you need to read my post about "betrayers vs. betrayed on MB"...that was out of line in my opinion. We are not here to judge people who have made mistakes. The fact that Holly is here and trying to work on her marriage gives her an immense amount of crediblity in my book. If you decide not to read my thread, the basic idea is "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all".<P>Holly,<BR>When I told my H about my affair, his first reaction was of course hurt and anger, but after that he began to search in his own behavior for something that may have played a part in it. I take full responsibility of course for my actions! Prior to this our marriage had been very passionate and loving (1 1/2 years of marriage, 3 years together)and we should have been in the newlywed stage also. He spent a great deal of time on the computer also, but when I told him about the affair he was VERY emotional...almost physically ill, it upset him so. I had to pull emotions out of him like teeth before that. This whole thing has made us both look at our commitment to each other and what we can do to improve communication and make our love last. I've read many books and researched everything I can find to make things better (even though they were pretty good to start with!)<P>My point is that his reaction is not the reaction of someone who seems very interested, to me, in remaining in the marriage. Protective mode, maybe...but that's a bit extreme. I would say counseling at the very least would be a good idea, to make sure he's still committed to the marriage. He may be one of those guys who says "you cheat it's over" and means it.<P>You and I should talk more We're in the same boat in a lot of ways! (Not to mention I have a friend with your name)<P>Take care<P>Tracy<P>email is SmallerTracy@yahoo.com or modemvnd@mcsi.net<P><P>------------------<BR>"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me."

Holly,<P>I always wonder if it's a question of "chemistry"...you have it or you don't. Most have it at the beginning of a marriage, I assume, but fall into the "comfortable old shoe" situation. You must have had it in the beginning, and from what I've read, your H has put a big damper on it with his actions. This has a lot to do with the lack of passion now, I would guess. <P>When your H expresses his ambivalence at your leaving, that must hurt. All of us who are married need confirmation that we matter and that our spouses couldn't live without us (well, at least happily). That's one of the big factors that inspires passion, an emotional bond. Illicit love (don't agree with Wex), is not the way, that's just infatuation that has no substance. I can say that after some major pain and problems with my own marriage, that my H and I have passion to the nth degree, and it hasn't dwindled at all. It's a mindset, but I do believe that you have to be at a point where you both have an intimate, emotional closeness to get there. In the beginning, it's easy, no baggage, no memories of bad times, no bills, no everyday life stuff. But after you're married and have suffered problems, it's easy to become emotionally distant, which doesn't inspire passion. Getting over those obstacles that you're facing right now would be first, I think. Counseling would be a good thing (although my H and I never went), but it's hard to get it back without the spouse's willingness to try as well. Was he always like this, or did his behavior change after the affair?

Holly, I did not say you were playing mind games. I was suggesting that your husband may think you are playing mind games.<BR>As for my statment that you need to do repentance, that is not a judgement. Repentance is the opposite of judging it is mercy. There is an ancient Jewish tradition that in the Next life there will be only one virtue and that will be Teshuvah, Repentance. At its roots Repentance even means returning home. Isn't that what you are trying to do and want? To build a home? Its such a shame that the idea of repenting has become so resisted. We all want forgiveness but none of us want to 'go home'.<BR>to Sad4Now, I read your post and its somewhat fair, but if any one is to change they also need to be challenged. It is amazing to me how many people, mostly the ones who seem to be committing the affairs or are saying they hate spouse etc claim to be looking for advice. When an answer isn't to their liking they immediately reject it and everyone comes flocking around with "Hey your wonderful" lines. Sadly, advice and the opinions of others isn't always nice. Infidelity and adultry are serious topics and will always bring about the sterness of others. Some medicines cannot be sugarcoated and a forum like this provides a safe atmosphere for people to hear opposing points of view. But safe doesn't mean never. I am sorry if you find my words so 'disrespectful' but respect comes in many forms and I'd rather be truthful than float phoney words so I 'sound' repectful. <P>[This message has been edited by KAM (edited August 30, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by KAM (edited August 30, 1999).]

Holly:<P>I know what helped mickey and i was going to a rediscovery weekend through our local church called Retrouvaille .. there is a site www.retrouvaille where you can see if there is one in your area. Anyways it is a weekend of learning how to express your feelings with one another in a positive way.. and a better way of communicating through dialogue too. Check it out, i know it helped enrich our marriage, you never know it may help in yours too.<P>Good luck to you ... : )<P>------------------<BR>Alliy

sorry Holly didn't give you the full addy for that retro site .. its www.retrouvaille.org <P>------------------<BR>Alliy

Wow! Really interesting thread! Gives me lots to think about.<P>I want to comment on the passion, or lack of, in my marriage. Last week was like a honeymoon for us. We decided to rebuild our marriage and excitedly planned moving back in together. I've never lost a special connection with my H. I would look at him and feel a pulling in my gut, like we are connected by a thread. I would get butterflies thinking about seeing him. But now when we are intimate, I've noticed I don't feel much for him. Still that connection, but no tingly, sexual feelings.<P>I think maybe I don't let myself feel passion for him because I'm protecting myself. There's a part of myself I no longer want to share. Maybe my Love Bank is in the red. Frankly, I don't trust him at all anymore. Even when he touches me there's the underlying doubt about whether or not he's really attracted to me, or is he just interested in sex. Is he really satisfied, or just saying that he is? You get the idea...<P>Lizbeth

Ladies,<P>If your husbands just can't seem to wake up to what you are trying to tell them...<P>There's an obscure song, written in a man-to-man conversation, that really nails it. It's called "For No One" and it's on the Beatle's album "Revolver".<P>It's short, catchy, to the point, and it never lets him off the hook. (Great truths that are painful don't make hit songs.) The most brain dead couch potato couldn't miss the point. Try it.<P>