Maybe this belongs in the emotinal needs page, but I thought I'd get more responses here...<P>I want to be madly, head-over-heels in love with my husband...but I can't imagine that reading a book or talking to a counselor will make that happen for me. I want to be passionate and emotionally connected to him...<P>I try to tell him what I need, but since he's not very emotional himself he doesn't understand how important it is to me.<BR>He'll tell me how pretty or sexy I am, but it's usually between commercials and it really doesn't seem that sincere to me. I know he means well...<P>What scares me most is that I'm young and have only been married for 2 years...I feel that I should still be in that honeymoon stage and that ended over a year ago.<P>How do I learn to accept this lack of emotion in my husband and what is considered a normal amount of passion in a marriage?

Holly, is there really an answer to that question? "Normal" passion? I don't even know what the word "normal" means anymore... <P>Probably the answer is when both parties are equally satisfied by the amount that both give and get, then it's the normal amount for that couple.<P>I'm not sure I understand why your husband is so blase about your needs. Why is he so idle? Isn't he afraid that you'll up and leave him? Or have another affair? Or go back to the OM? You keep saying that he is satisfied where things are... OK, that just means that you don't have to do much to please him. But your needs are still important too! The guy has to get his butt off the couch if he truly wants to stay married to you.<P>--airheart

When he found out about the affair (I told him) he really had no emotion at all. He actually sat there playing solitare on the computer and told me if I wanted to leave than leave. <P>The only thing he did do was take my credit card away (not fair, since I make half the money) and I had to borrow money from my sister to pay for a hotel.<P>He still says if I'm not happy then I should leave, that he could live without me. He says this in a nice tone...but basically thinks that he does all he can do to make me happy. I'll ask him if he would even care if I left and he says sure I'd be unhappy, but I'd get over it. <P>He hasn't even shed a tear over the affair. He tends to have an aloof attitude that nothing bothers him...as long as he has his 401K and his stocks he'll be happy.<P>I'm pretty sure if I walked out the door tomorrow he wouldn't ask me to stay...he might be hurt, but wouldn't dare tell me.<P>I want him to tell me he loves me and needs me and can't live without me!<p>[This message has been edited by Holly (edited August 26, 1999).]

Holly, I think you ask an honest question, but I think the answer is harder to find. My H and I didn't have a very passionate relationship....always things keeping us apart. I needed and wanted things he was not giving me and he needed and wanted things from me. We were caught in this huge circle, I was waiting for him and he was waiting for me, but he skidded out of control and got off of the race track. So we slowly put things back together. Who would have thought after years of no passion we would be where we are today. We constantly tell each other that we are so lucky we found it, that there are lots of people who never do. I guess my point is, is that it is possible. I know your H doesn't seem to want to give the energy to it, but he needs to understand you can not live the rest of your life empty. I know you don't want to hear this but counseling did help us. We feel very fortunate about that, but it is possible....I promise.

Holly -- how on earth can a person be happy when presented with an attitude like that?!? I remember you saying that stuff before, but for some reason, I thought your hubby changed his tune a little lately. I thought he at least wanted to save the marriage.<P>What happened the first time you left? How long were you gone? What was his reaction? Did you go back because he asked you? I'm really at a loss as to how you should proceed. If this is the way he really feels, then if it was me I'd leave (not saying YOU should do that, but that's probably what I'd do if presented with the same non-caring attitude).<P>Anyone else have words of wisdom for Holly? Like maybe K?? K's got the MarriageBuilders methods down pat. Maybe there's something in there that'll help your husband realize what he really wants...<P>--airheart

Holly-<P>It's me again. I sent a few responses to another of your questions. Yours are some that have kept me thinking.<P>I am not sure if what I am about to say will come out right or not so I hope I make my point at least clear. I am not trying to bad mouth your H or talk you into giving up but.................. There is something big time wrong with your H. My guess ( and I sure hope I am right) is that he is refusing to allow himself to feel any pain-that is why he has the lack of so many emotions and actions. Somehow this man needs to know how much you love him-but that you need more out of the marriage. I know you have done a lot so far-is there anything else you can do to snap him out of it? I feel real bad for you-but if he can't even look you in the eyes and talk to you heart to heart then you don't need him any more than he needs you. There is more to marriage than that!!<BR>Plese keep us informed of how you are doing. I know that many of us here are sure hoping this all works out for you.<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{HOLLY}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

holly, <P>if my husband weren't here so much, I'd swear we were married to the same man. Same reaction to my affair and all (only he worked out instead of playing on the computer). what will get through to these guys? airheart is right, it isn't normal.

I think Airheart hit it on the money - what is "normal." My husband and I definitely had passion before marriage and during the nine years of marriage it has come and gone. More gone than not. My H will argue that he fell out of love. Well that may be, but if he had not worked so much and been so stressed and I had not supported that..... then we would be in a much different place. <P>I think after that get to know one another stage (everything is exciting) then it becomes a comfortable love that includes a mature passion - does that make sense? <P>I know it is not fair, but when we have a need that is not important then we are horrible at meeting that need until given lots of hints and examples.<P>Get that TV off!!! Find common interests - do something - get away from the mindsucking TV!<P><P>------------------<BR>H

Holly,<P>I can't answer what is considered "normal" passion in a marriage, but I do agree with the others who've said your H may be in "self-protection" mode. He may be subconsciously thinking that if he keeps you at an arms length, then he will avoid being hurt. What he needs to understand is, this behavior could backfire in the biggest way and end up pushing you even farther away from him. I read you say that if OM wanted you, you would leave your H and go to him. Does your H really understand this? Have you two been to counseling? Is it an option?<P>Holly, just curious, how old are you and your H? I was surprised to read that you'd only been married for 2 years. I would have to say that this doesn't sound too "normal" (hate that word) for a newly married couple. How long has it been this way?<P>Keep your chin up. You're doing the right thing by recommitting to your marriage. Now it's your H's turn to do his part.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Passion. I remember what it was like.<P>After our separation a little over 3 years ago, I went to the airport to pick my husband up. I hadn't seen him for 5 months, but we talked every night. <P>That night he kissed me, and the passion was gone. It was all gone. <P>That magic hasn't returned. Sure, we are committed, and I love him dearly, and I'm sure he loves me too. <P>But something was stolen from our relationship during that 5 months, and all I have are memories. I am afraid the passion was polluted, and it will never be the same.<P>You guys have me about in tears over this thread.

Passion, yes I remember that too! In my thread, I'm calling it connection.<P>Before this little side trip, in my marriage I enjoyed a connection......maybe just in my head, but even though my H has never been demonstrative and actually hadn't told me he loved me in about 10 or 12 years (sound nuts but true!) we (or maybe I) had a connection.....when he walked into a room I got that "feeling". I felt the ties....I felt passion. Our intimate relationship was good. I mean, hell I LOVE this man, he may not say he loves me, but I KNEW he did, and I HAD passion.<P>I've lost that, and heck looking back maybe it was all in my mind! I mean this man has recently taken to telling me he loves me, hugging me and cuddling me, but that feeling hasn't returned. I used to think, THIS IS MY MAN! Now I cannot get past his relationship with OW. I know longer feel that THIS IS MY MAN feeling......<P>So sad! Will the passion return? Will the connection come back.....Only God knows and he ain't telling!

Hi Once Happy<P>For me, passion is something physical - you know, those butterfly's in your stomach - aroused without working at it - a simple touch that turns you on......<P>That is missing. I think it won't come back. I've told my husband that I miss that, and need that. His response was basically oh well, not my problem... I haven't brought it up in many many many months, because I thought it was a lovebuster. <P>Connection - is another thing - to me that is emotional. It's not natural anymore, either - but it is something re-created and lasting - I talked about that on your thread.<P>I can control the emotional, I can control my behavior. But this "Physical" passion - hmmmmm..... Is this the test of the depth of the wounds?

TNT<P>I agree.....but for me it seems like when I lost the emotional connection, passion went along with it! Buterflies in my stomach, yep that's how it used to feel when I looked at him......I think, at least for me, I cannot regain that feeling until the connection has been restablished!

Once happy <P>I wonder if some of those that are farther along in recovery can tell us if that passion will return. <P>This has opened a can of worms for me. I am usually always hopeful, but for some reason on this issue - "passion" - I'm at a standstill.<P>

i too have heard and read that the passion we talk about here does settle into a deeper yet less exciting kind of love. on the other hand, i've heard people say that they still tingle whenever they see their spouse. i know of one male couple, they're in their 60s, say that they still get excited when one sees the other. a man i know, he's about 50, told me he still gets excited whenever he sees his wife and they've been married a very long time. i wonder if his wife feels the same way. knowing this makes me feel i'm missing something. i've always known i wasn't satisfied, that something was missing but tried to assign those feelings to unrealistic expectations. i guess that means i thought i was wrong to feel as i do, but can how one feel be wrong? should i just accept feeling frustrated? should i just learn to be happy with what i've got. it could be worse but that's hardly counsalation. i know when i was having my affair, i didn't feel this kind of frustration, until towards the end when i began to see that it wasn't meant to be. in my minds eye, i see myself as a good and desent person. so, when i think of how i'm drawn to other woman i must be a common womanizer. but that doesn't fit with my being a good person. it's very confusing. i wish i were happy with my w, that i had the passion we talk about and i would then not be interested in other woman and be frustrated.

Wow, lot's of responses...<BR>I'll try to answer your questions.<P>Gladimadeit--<BR>Maybe I will have to try conseling to convince my H that my needs are legitimate!<P>Airheart--<BR>My H has changed his tune a little...but I have to say it's me pulling his emotions out of him. I have to ask him if he loves me, needs me, etc.<BR>The first and only time I left was only for a couple of days...he never called to ask me to come back, never said he wanted me back, never seemed to care I was gone and thinking about leaving him for another man. I came back on my own...he didn't want to discuss anything. He just said let me know what your decision is.<P>Heatache--<BR>Sometimes I think the only way I can snap him out of it is to actually move out. I asked him last night what he'd do if I left him...he basically said I can't change your mind, I can't make you fall in love with me. He doesn't realize that he can...I fell in love with him at one point in my life because he tried.<P>New Woman--<BR>I think my H does realize that if the OM wanted me I would leave, but he says if I love someone else there's nothing he could do to change that. We went to couseling a couple of times...it just lead in to conversations about money, nothing really deep. I probably didn't try my hardest during those session...I didn't feel like breaking down, because at that point all I wanted was the OM. I'm 27 and my H is 34. I've been feeling this way for about a year...daydreaming about other men, etc.<P>Sounds like many of you are in the same boat. I bought some books on how to restore passion, etc. and have asked my H to read them...he doesn't. How can I convince him I'm serious? How can I make this issue important to him? Sure, he can act like he cares...but deep down he's more concerned about on-line gambling, video games, and his stocks. I realize he should have his interests, but sometimes it just seems so unimportant to me.

Wow. Sounds like a conflict avoider. Unfortunately he won't know what he HAD until you're gone.<P>I admire your fight ... really I do. If my H had been like that I'm not sure I would have stayed at all. I don't know though. I felt that God wanted me there. Once I said, "Okay God .... time to work a miracle. I turn it all over to you." He began to work in our marriage like you wouldn't believe.<P>As for passion .... it's there. It's not 24/7, and it's not the same as the OM. But it won't be. Every relationship (sinful or not) is different, has different levels of feelings and emotions. I have recognized that and put the affair behind me. Yes, I learned from it too ....<P>I don't have any suggestions for having the passion return. It will be difficult with your H being so passive.<P>What are your "long-term" plans? Are you planning to stay no matter what? Or are you giving this a year to get better, make progress, etc. and then you'll re-evaluate?<P>(Your H would be singing a different tune about you leaving when he realizes that you get HALF of his precious 401K and stocks .... LOL)<BR>

Hi Holly<P>Is it possible that your H does not want to be married anymore. Maybe he is also having an affair or is planning to have an affair to get back at you.<P>Could it also be that he just does not want to be the one who ended the marriage, he may want you to make the divorce decision.<P>If the above is not happening then he is bottling all his anger and emotions. This will be very hard for you to communicate with him and therefore it will be impossible to feel passion for him.<P>You need to start by cracking his armour and get his emotions out or whatever it is that is stopping him from feeling passion for you.<P>Good Luck<BR>

Maya--<BR>I don't really have any long term plans. I guess I'll wait it out for a year and if I'm still feeling this way I'll try and move on.<BR>The problem is he gives me everything else I need except passion. I have to decide what's more important to me. My guess right now is passion.<P>toronto_m_29--<BR>I know this sounds extremely naive, but I don't think my H would ever have an affair...we've actually spoken about this. I know he's a hard worker, has nobody in the office to have an affair with, comes home right after work, etc. He's very goal oriented and doesn't have "time" for someone else in his life. He has what he wants...nice house...nice job...nice wife...plans for children.<P>I've asked him if he wants to be married...he says yes. I'm pretty sure he doesn't want a divorce.

Holly -- my wife has read your thread and she thinks that your husband is in extreme protective mode. He puts this big shell around him and his feelings so he won't be hurt. Probably been doing that his whole life. Not very condusive to becoming passionate, is it? I hope you figure out how to break that shell, cuz maybe that's your key.<P>To trustntruth and OnceHappy -- The way I think about passion is the way you BOTH describe it. It's emotional AND it's physical. To be turned on sexually and also to have that connection. To get the butterflies/weak knees, and to think "THIS IS MY PERSON!"<P>As I've told my wife, I've never really had those feelings with her. I've done a real good acting job for a long time. Well, I don't want to *act* anymore!<P>--airheart

Holly,<P>My husband has said the same thing to me that you stated above "If you want to leave, If you love someone else, there's nothing I can do about it. Go ahead." Last night we talked about this thread and he re-iterated that point. <P>I finally told him 'Yes there is something you can do! You can tell me you want me, that you want me to stay, that you can't live without me! that's what I want to hear! It would make all the difference!'<P>And he looked at me and said, 'That's all? I do feel that way, but I figured that if you wanted to go, I might as well give you what you want.'<P>It seems I didn't realize that I was gaging his reactions and using it to measure how much I thought he loved me. And he didn't realize that he had the ability to change my feeelings just by changing his reactions. We talked about this for quite a while last night. <P>I'm not sure if this will make any sense, or even be relevant to you. But it seemed like a breakthrough for us anyway.----tamis<BR>

Tamis--<BR>That makes a lot of sense to me...maybe my H doesn't realize he can change the way I feel by what he does.<P>But also, I think he feels that I shouldn't want to change him and the way he deals with me. I think that to him I should accept the way he is and why should he have to change if it's not really natural to him. Basically, why should he have to put on a front...he is who he is and that's that.<P>It's difficult for me to explain...<P>I'm glad you're having a breakthough!

Pam (btw, "Holly" is a cute name for a dog!)--<P>That "he is who he is" thing is a trap we've all fallen into!! I know that's the way I used to think! I think the line "you should love me the way I am" is pretty destructive. It means "no work is required"... So very untrue.<P>My wife and I talked about this before - couples should go through "marriage training" before getting married, and if they don't pass the course, they can't get married. And one of the subjects that would be taught in class is - Marriage is a process of change!<P>--andy

Airheart--<BR>I got married in a catholic church and had to go to this "marriage training" called Precana before the wedding...my husband and I went unwillingly and took it as a total joke! I wish I had taken it more seriously now.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He<BR> actually sat there playing solitare on the computer and told me if I wanted to leave<BR> than leave.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>My H is the one having an affair, but your H's behavior reminds me of his. During the affair and for several months preceeding it, he spent virtually all his spare time sitting in front of the computer playing games. He sat there and played solitaire a couple of months ago while we were discussing the fact that he wanted me to agree to not contest the divorce and speed it up, a subject I would have thought he would want to concentrate on.<BR>I agree that your H seems to be in extreme protective mode.<BR>

While I'd agree that Holly's H is in protective mode, he is sure going overboard with it. But hey, he IS a guy, and emotional connectedness is not exactly our strong suit. <P>What I think is more curious is this: There seems to be a feeling that if Holly's H doesn't make an effort to shape up, and Holly ends up in another affair out of desparation to be loved, then H is, at least, a teeny, tiny bit responsible.<P>Whoa! Pretty close to blasphemy around these parts!

To different folks...<P>New Woman,<P>Please post your success story, Holly and Tamis need some encouragement from your experience.<P>Maya,<P>I'm so glad things are improving! You've really shown a lot of character over the past few months.<BR>

Holly!<P>I love what airheart said! He's got it! He's really got it.!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>That "he is who he is" thing is a trap we've all fallen into!! I know that's the way I used to think! I think the line "you should love me the way I am" is pretty destructive. It means "no work is required"... So very untrue.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>TNT<P>

I sometimes wonder if the institution of marriage itself isn't deadly to passion. I know people don't like to hear this, and there's even a book called "Passionate Marriage" which promotes the idea that it is possible to discover (or rediscover) sexual passion in your marriage. But this just doesn't seem to be the experience of most people whose stories I've heard or read (with a few exeptions, granted). It certainly isn't my experience, though I will say that the sexual passion lasted longer in my 1st marriage than it has in my 2nd. (Which I got into mainly for just that reason, expecting it would last at least a few years!) I don't know. Maybe sex NEEDS to be illicit for it really to be exciting. I think (in one way or another) that this is what drives many spouses (like my W) to cheat. The lovemaking is just more exciting that way (and I include cheaters who think they're having their affairs out of real love for the OP). Marriage legitimizes sex and that's the whole problem. A very wise commedienne once said,"If you think sex isn't dirty, you're probably doing it wrong." Wise words,<P>--Wex

This is a great thread.<P>Tamis,<P>I also posted to you over on the Emotional Needs forum on your "brother/sister mode" thread. As I said, my H used to be a stone. Trying to talk to him was like talking to a brick wall. Unfortunately, it took the revelation of our respective affairs to finally chip away at that wall. I distinctly say "chip away," because even with this crisis, my H's opening up has been a process. It didn't happen all at once. As a matter of fact, it is still an ongoing process. He has gotten so, so much better than I'd ever thought possible, but he still has those tendencies to avoid conflict and close up. It's something that may be an never ending challenge for him. But I try hard to be understanding about it. As long as I see effort on his part, then I'm okay, and that's a big change for me. I'm so much of a now person, and patience has never been my forte. I think I've grown tremendously as a person as a result. Patience is a virtue, as they say.<P>Holly,<P>I'd try the counseling again with a DIFFERENT therapist. It sounds like you had a very ineffective one, and that really stinks. Sometimes, I think that we should be able to file malpractice suits against ineffective or counselors and therapists who give detrimental advice. They can do as much damage as a medical quack, in my opinion. <P>My H used to say things somewhat similar to what your H is saying now, but that was before our respective affairs were revealed. Once he found out that I almost did fall in love with someone else, he changed his tune. Since then, he has and continues to try so hard to fulfill my needs and make me feel wanted, desired and needed. I really don't understand your H still being so distant when he knows how close he came to losing you. Or does he really know? How much about your affair does he know? It sounds like he hasn't asked any questions, and maybe he really hasn't grasped everything or is still in denial. And that's where counseling comes in. It might provide the safe environment to really discuss your issues. Sweeping things under the carpet can be a death wish to marriages.<P>Doug,<P>I hope Holly isn't getting the same impression, that it'd be her H's fault if she had another affair. That is blasphemy, not just here, but anywhere. If she or anyone else stoops low enough to have an affair, it's no one else's fault but their own, regardless of what their spouse is or isn't doing. There is nothing my H could do or not do to make me go back there again. I'd leave first. In a heartbeat. I hope Holly and everyone else knows that we all deserve a healthy, safe and loving relationships. An affair doesn't even come close to being that.<P>Wex,<P>Unfortunately, I think you have some valid points about the thrill of illicit sex vs. marital sex. And you may be very right that no matter how much an unfaithful spouse claims "love" to be the driving force in their affairs, the sexual dynamics, whether acted out or fantasized about, probably has just as much impact. Won't be able to get many people who say they "love" the OP to admit that, though. <P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Passion, wow that is exactly what my W says is the problem. Basically she has said that is the only reason she does not want to work on our marriage. She says she never had the appropriate passion since the start. Could be just her affair talking, but those butterflies/arousal for her, I do not think were there in the beginning. We started as friends and gradually got to what the therapist calls "mature love". I tend to think of it on her part as maybe brother/sister like someone else posted. I am really confused/concerned about this passion topic. Her affair started because those feeling were reawakened in her (her words) said she never thought she could feel that way again. For her the emotional connection/click was first but the physical arousal followed right after that (even though the OM is not a 'looker'). Just like the books talk about. Holly, or anyone else - it sounds like that type of passion cannot be duplicated or met in a reconciliation or in a marriage over 3? years like wex said. Do any of you think the plan for romantic love Dr. Harley talks about could actually bring a level of passion close to that initial passion?

Holly,<BR>I can't speak for your husband and don't know his background, but I wouldn't jump to assuming he's in 'protective' mode or denyoing his emotions. He may just be refusing to be manipulated and play your game.<BR>You had the affair not him. You want him to be emotional responsive so you don't commit anothe affair or leave him? Now you're shocked he won't platy along and reaffirm his love for you???<BR>Excuse me but you need to do the eotional expressing. Its called repentance and sorrow. Two years into a marriage and you already strayed? From his point of view he's got nothing to lose. I hope to God you don't have any children and you make certain you don't bring any children into this mess.<BR>Also, has have you considered that your husband doesn't believe you had an affair? He might think you made it up to get his attention. Some women do, and he may think its all a mind game. I had a friend who didn't believe his wife had ever cheated on him even. He finally believed it when he saw it. How wonderful.<BR>Re: passion does change and flux in marriage. The first year is different, the infatuation does fade but the passion of love will grow. You have to learn how to be a lover to your spouse. Practicing with others won't help and being good at sex isn't the secert its being good at his desires that's the secret.

KAM--<BR>I'm not playing any mind games with my husband...what I did wasn't calculated or planned! <P>I don't think straying after two years in a marriage is any worse than straying twenty years into a marriage.<P>By the way...I'm here to look for advice, not to be judged!

KAM< you need to read my post about "betrayers vs. betrayed on MB"...that was out of line in my opinion. We are not here to judge people who have made mistakes. The fact that Holly is here and trying to work on her marriage gives her an immense amount of crediblity in my book. If you decide not to read my thread, the basic idea is "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all".<P>Holly,<BR>When I told my H about my affair, his first reaction was of course hurt and anger, but after that he began to search in his own behavior for something that may have played a part in it. I take full responsibility of course for my actions! Prior to this our marriage had been very passionate and loving (1 1/2 years of marriage, 3 years together)and we should have been in the newlywed stage also. He spent a great deal of time on the computer also, but when I told him about the affair he was VERY emotional...almost physically ill, it upset him so. I had to pull emotions out of him like teeth before that. This whole thing has made us both look at our commitment to each other and what we can do to improve communication and make our love last. I've read many books and researched everything I can find to make things better (even though they were pretty good to start with!)<P>My point is that his reaction is not the reaction of someone who seems very interested, to me, in remaining in the marriage. Protective mode, maybe...but that's a bit extreme. I would say counseling at the very least would be a good idea, to make sure he's still committed to the marriage. He may be one of those guys who says "you cheat it's over" and means it.<P>You and I should talk more We're in the same boat in a lot of ways! (Not to mention I have a friend with your name)<P>Take care<P>Tracy<P>email is SmallerTracy@yahoo.com or modemvnd@mcsi.net<P><P>------------------<BR>"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me."

Holly,<P>I always wonder if it's a question of "chemistry"...you have it or you don't. Most have it at the beginning of a marriage, I assume, but fall into the "comfortable old shoe" situation. You must have had it in the beginning, and from what I've read, your H has put a big damper on it with his actions. This has a lot to do with the lack of passion now, I would guess. <P>When your H expresses his ambivalence at your leaving, that must hurt. All of us who are married need confirmation that we matter and that our spouses couldn't live without us (well, at least happily). That's one of the big factors that inspires passion, an emotional bond. Illicit love (don't agree with Wex), is not the way, that's just infatuation that has no substance. I can say that after some major pain and problems with my own marriage, that my H and I have passion to the nth degree, and it hasn't dwindled at all. It's a mindset, but I do believe that you have to be at a point where you both have an intimate, emotional closeness to get there. In the beginning, it's easy, no baggage, no memories of bad times, no bills, no everyday life stuff. But after you're married and have suffered problems, it's easy to become emotionally distant, which doesn't inspire passion. Getting over those obstacles that you're facing right now would be first, I think. Counseling would be a good thing (although my H and I never went), but it's hard to get it back without the spouse's willingness to try as well. Was he always like this, or did his behavior change after the affair?

Holly, I did not say you were playing mind games. I was suggesting that your husband may think you are playing mind games.<BR>As for my statment that you need to do repentance, that is not a judgement. Repentance is the opposite of judging it is mercy. There is an ancient Jewish tradition that in the Next life there will be only one virtue and that will be Teshuvah, Repentance. At its roots Repentance even means returning home. Isn't that what you are trying to do and want? To build a home? Its such a shame that the idea of repenting has become so resisted. We all want forgiveness but none of us want to 'go home'.<BR>to Sad4Now, I read your post and its somewhat fair, but if any one is to change they also need to be challenged. It is amazing to me how many people, mostly the ones who seem to be committing the affairs or are saying they hate spouse etc claim to be looking for advice. When an answer isn't to their liking they immediately reject it and everyone comes flocking around with "Hey your wonderful" lines. Sadly, advice and the opinions of others isn't always nice. Infidelity and adultry are serious topics and will always bring about the sterness of others. Some medicines cannot be sugarcoated and a forum like this provides a safe atmosphere for people to hear opposing points of view. But safe doesn't mean never. I am sorry if you find my words so 'disrespectful' but respect comes in many forms and I'd rather be truthful than float phoney words so I 'sound' repectful. <P>[This message has been edited by KAM (edited August 30, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by KAM (edited August 30, 1999).]

Holly:<P>I know what helped mickey and i was going to a rediscovery weekend through our local church called Retrouvaille .. there is a site www.retrouvaille where you can see if there is one in your area. Anyways it is a weekend of learning how to express your feelings with one another in a positive way.. and a better way of communicating through dialogue too. Check it out, i know it helped enrich our marriage, you never know it may help in yours too.<P>Good luck to you ... : )<P>------------------<BR>Alliy

sorry Holly didn't give you the full addy for that retro site .. its www.retrouvaille.org <P>------------------<BR>Alliy

Wow! Really interesting thread! Gives me lots to think about.<P>I want to comment on the passion, or lack of, in my marriage. Last week was like a honeymoon for us. We decided to rebuild our marriage and excitedly planned moving back in together. I've never lost a special connection with my H. I would look at him and feel a pulling in my gut, like we are connected by a thread. I would get butterflies thinking about seeing him. But now when we are intimate, I've noticed I don't feel much for him. Still that connection, but no tingly, sexual feelings.<P>I think maybe I don't let myself feel passion for him because I'm protecting myself. There's a part of myself I no longer want to share. Maybe my Love Bank is in the red. Frankly, I don't trust him at all anymore. Even when he touches me there's the underlying doubt about whether or not he's really attracted to me, or is he just interested in sex. Is he really satisfied, or just saying that he is? You get the idea...<P>Lizbeth

Ladies,<P>If your husbands just can't seem to wake up to what you are trying to tell them...<P>There's an obscure song, written in a man-to-man conversation, that really nails it. It's called "For No One" and it's on the Beatle's album "Revolver".<P>It's short, catchy, to the point, and it never lets him off the hook. (Great truths that are painful don't make hit songs.) The most brain dead couch potato couldn't miss the point. Try it.<P>

I'm trying to get my husband to attend counseling with me. Right now he doesn't see the point of going himself when he has no problem with our relationship.<BR>He thinks he's doing all he can to make me happy. Maybe I'm being a little selfish, but I think counseling would be good for us. Even if it's just a problem with me it would be nice to have his support.

Holly! I don't think it's a problem with just you! Your hubby needs the councelling too! He needs to get some motivation somewhere, and maybe councelling will help!<P>--andy

new woman, Holly - It IS a great thread! I also wanted to address myself to NW's remark about counseling, because I haven't had a very good experience in this area myself. So I know it's very hard to find a good one. My W and I have been to two SETS of counselors for quite extended periods, neither one very satisfactory to my mind. Our first was actually another couple, and they focused on teaching us techniques of communicating when that wasn't really our problem! (Which has always been my W's affair driving a wedge into any real intimacy.) Our second started out as another couple, but the W dropped out, leaving us (me) with a guy who invariably sides with my W - meaning none of my real issues gets dealt with, just put back on me as being somehow the fault of something I'VE done. If I could sue HIM for malpractice, I certainly would!<P>Holly - I would be the last person in the world to judge you for what you've done. Once you decided to give up your affair and work on your marriage, it sounds as though you've done all the right things. It's your H's fault if he chooses not try and work with you to heal your marriage. If my W did what you did, I think I would fall all over myself to try and work with her to get our marriage back on track, including (especially) rekindling the flames of our passion!<P>--Wex

Lizabeth, I understand how you feel. Do you really think we can put a wall up - protecting ourselves - which stifles that feeling we miss so much?<P>If so, how do we get that wall down?

What I find very puzzling is that you chose to get married 3 years ago to this man who you knew was not a emotional type of guy and then chose to have an affair because you wanted passion. You then decided to give your marriage another chance and see whether you could get your husband to change from being just a friend into the passionate type of man that you had an affair with. Hope I got the story right. Now you are telling your H that he needs counselling so he can learn to become passionate and make you happy. He is right when he says the problem is you not him. You are the one who sees your H only as friend and not a hunk. You are the one who does not feel passion for him. You are the one who misses the OM. You are the one who betrayed your husband.You are the one who blames your husband for being who he is. Now you want him to attend counselling so (a)that he will forgive and you will feel less guilty (b)he can be enlightened to the fact that you need passionate love (c)so that he can undergo a transformation into a different husband that is passionate and one that will sweep you off your feet. There is nothing wrong with counselling except from your H's perspective you are asking him to change because of your affair and therefore you are not accepting him as the man you married.He accepts himself as who he is you don't. My point is that you need to<BR>look first at yourself and find out why you had the affair and what you want. You should not put a trip on your husband to make you happy. Happiness comes from within. The greatest happiness comes from doing things for other people. Devote yourself to making your husband happy. If you choose to be "in love with him" your actions will reinforce that feeling.Over time he will respond to you and reciprocate accordingly. Instead of striving for only passionate love which you sampled in a illicit affair strive for a love that is based on devotion,mutual respect, and sacrifice. The passion that burns in this kind of love lasts forever.

max--<BR>I'm not angry with my husband or blaming him for me having an affair...I would just like for him to show an effort in saving our marriage.<P>I understand why my husband is reluctant to couselling...I just feel that in order to work on a marriage that both people involved should be a part of it.<P>Yes, I admit I had an affair, I was the one who made the mistake. I'm now trying every option I have to rekindle something between my husband and I. <P>The affair is not what made me lose the spark for my husband in the first place it just made me realize that I could possibly have something more fullfiling in a marriage. Yes, part of that has to do with how much I put into the marriage...but it's a two way street.<P><BR>

Holly,<P>Yes, the affair was your choice and your problem. You created it and you chose to step outside of you marriage. BUT...<P>Marriage is a JOINT effort. Obviously things weren't great at home to start with or you wouldn't have went looking elsewhere. (still not an excuse, but I see where my faults were as the betrayed) You BOTH could benefit from counseling, You BOTH could benefit from meeting each others needs. Wanting H to meet your needs is not an irrational request. Yes, you had the affair, but it will take BOTH of you to rebuild the marriage. You deserve to have passion and you deserve to have your other needs met. Just because you had an affair doesn't condem you to being utterly miserable for the rest of your life. It doesn't mean you should never feel love and passion again (from within your marraige).<P>I hope you understand what I am trying to say. I guess it is more in referance to a few other posts you received. Just because you made a mistake, doesn't mean that YOU are the ONLY one who should be working at this marriage. I would be willing to bet that your H has probably made mistakes too, his were just different than yours.<P>I believe that passion can be restored. I see it happening in my marriage, but my H is very willing to learn. However, the first time I metioned counseling to him, I got the same kind of response you did. There's nothing wrong with our marraige, why should we go to counseling. But it has helped and so has reading. I hope you H is willing to look at some possibilities of how you marriage can be made better!<P>------------------<BR>Shoni<P><BR>

Max:<P>Are you saying that Holly can simply CHOOSE to feel passion for her husband, regardless of his actions? I agree that she should do all she can to make her husband happy. But of course, her husband should reciprocate, which apparently isn't happening.<P>Reading at this site for lo, these many months, has convinced of a couple things: We CANNOT choose to be "in love" (passive feeling). We CAN choose to "love" (active verb).<BR>

So Holly you may not feel like I've been much an an ally here for you from the way you read my previous post. But right now I cannot be more on your side here in response to posts like max's.<BR>You may have married your husband knowing he wasn't very 'passionate' but you obviously are a passionate person and he married you too. In short, he also knew what type of person he was marrying, and he agreed to reach out to your 'passion' and try to meet your needs too. You may have known he wasn't very 'passionate', but you both made a vow to reach out to come to fulfill each others needs. <BR>I also don't understand why people make a big deal of "You knew what he was like when..." First off people do change, second when most people marry they don't fully understand all the implications anothers personality will lead to. we're usually too young, too inexperienced, and too in love to care. Lastly, our society still does favor that a couple refrain from sex as prior to marriage. While this isn't really practice its still the goal most hold to. A person who is 'passionless; physically may only appear to be trying to be 'honorable' moral or respectful while dating. Likewise, some people (often girls) can be very emotional, and sexually active before marriage but they change afterwards because they really were feeling insecure and were dating by seduction. Marriage isn't a you knew what you were buying type of agreement. It's a hope for the future agreement. We promise not to always remain what we are but to become what each of us needs to become to help the other become the best person they can be.<BR>

Okay, since nobody is going to pull out the old Beatles record and play it for their husbands so they can understand what you are trying to say, here is the lyric to Lennon/McCartney's "For No One"<P>Your day breaks<BR>Your mind aches<BR>You find that all her words of kindness linger on when she no longer needs you<P>She wakes up<BR>She makes up<BR>She takes her time and doesn't feel she has to hurry, she no longer needs you<P>And in her eyes you see nothing<BR>No sign of love behind the tears<BR>Cried for no one<BR>A love that should have lasted years<P>You want her<BR>You need her<BR>And yet you don't believe her when she says her love is dead, you think she needs you<P>And in her eyes you see nothing<BR>No sign of love behind the tears<BR>Cried for no one<BR>A love that should have lasted years<P>You stay home<BR>She goes out<BR>She says that long ago she knew someone but now he's gone<BR>She doesn't need him<P>Your day breaks<BR>Your mind aches<BR>There will be times when all the things she said will fill your head, you won't forget her<P>And in her eyes you see nothing<BR>No sign of love behind the tears<BR>Cried for no one<BR>A love that should have lasted years<P>(It's much more effective with music)<BR>

I had a minor breakthrough last night. I'm going to be visiting my old job on Friday and it just sunk in to my H that I will probably be running into the OM. He wasn't really pleased, but he said he trusted me.<P>Later that night he asked what it is he needs to do to work on our marriage and make me happy. We discussed some things and hopefully he will stick to them.

Max,<P>You're wrong. If the objective is for Holly and her H to rebuild their broken marriage, learn how to have effective communication, fulfill each other's needs, then Holly's H should want to attend counseling with her so that they both can make the necessary changes. Not just him. Holly needs to make some changes too, right Holly? <P>Most of us had no idea how important our own emotional needs were when we married. As a matter of fact, I didn't even know what mine were!! So, when I married, I didn't know whether my H could fulfill them or not. I married him because I loved him. Now that we both have learned what each others emotional needs are, guess what, we want to fulfill them for each other. Not only that, we will fulfill them, or die trying. No more of this, "I can't change....." hogwash!!<P>We do this because we want to fulfill each other, make each other happy and have a healthy marriage. Hopefully Holly's H will want these things too.<P>That's why he should attend counseling with her so that he can learn how to do just that.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Max,<P>I think you sorta have the story right. So, if Holly wants to find a way to bring passion into the marriage, and she wants husband to do his part, what is wrong with that?<P>Is it because she was the betrayer that you think she doesn't have a right to a fulfilling marriage any more? <P>Max, it isn't about justice, it is about creating a marriage that fulfills all of our needs, staying committed, forgiving the past and loving your spouse even when they aren't lovable.<P>And if anyone can tell me how to get that passion back, whether it is normal or not - I would so desparately appreciate it. I'm hearing so much on why it left, everybody's right to passion, why it is normal to not feel passion, etc. etc. - but what I want is a recipe for passion. ??? Please, anyone?<P> <P>

"The affair is not what made me lose the spark for my husband in the first place it just made me realize that I could possibly have something more fullfiling in a marriage".<P><BR>Holly this statement by you summarizes your problem. You are using the passion generated in an affair as the norm that you feel should be present in your marriage. It is as if you had taken heroin or cocaine and upon stopping these drugs wondered why you are no longer feeling high..<BR>Holly if you had not been married and had a normal relationship with this sleazeball you would not have experienced the same kind of passion that you experienced in your affair.The fact is that the makeup of an affair contributes to the passion.. Affairs muddle the mind and distort reality. Affairs are addictive because they are devoted only in giving pure pleasure one hundred percent of the time.. When these affairs turn into marriages most fall apart because the secrecy and intrigue that contributed to the passion or lust is no longer present. Reality becomes a lovebuster.<P>New Woman<P>“We went to couseling a couple of times...it just lead in to conversations about money, nothing really deep.I probably didn't try my hardest during those session...I didn't feel like breaking down,<BR>because at that point all I wanted was the OM. I'm 27 and my H is 34. I've been feeling<BR> this way for about a year...daydreaming about other men, etc.”<P>The about statement by Holly shows that her husband had participated in counselling but that it was unsuccessful due to Holly not being interested in working on her marriage. Holly comes across very confused who in my opinion should work on herself first and find out what she wants. Maybe then can she tell her husband what he can do to fulfill her needs instead of him trying to guess what she wants.Good ccommunication can only happen if both sides are committed in wanting to make the marriage work. Right now Holly is still wearing her “affair glasses” and sees her husband and marriage only in how it affects her. Maybe she needs to reach out to her husband to assure him that she needs him and is committed to her marriage. <P>TrustNTruth<P>I agree that a husband and wife should work toward fulfilling each other’s needs. Nobody would argue with that.. As for fulfilling the need for passion we should define what we mean by this term. Are we talking about lust. Are we talking about a physical craving for the other person. Are we talking about loss of control during sex ... Are we talking about sexual techniques. Are we talking about the number and intensity of orgasms.. Are we talking about an intense emotion that is similar to the high that is triggered by drugs such as heroin or cocaine. It would be interesting to do a survey to see how many marriages have passion. I think what most couples really want is intimacy... Intimacy is being affectionate, holding hands, giving compliments, buying flowers, giving hugs, giving encouragement, doing sexual techniques that will give the other partner pleasure, helping with housework, taking care of children, being honest, showing respect,etc. Intimacy can be viewed as foreplay before having good sex as well as giving the other person the feeling of being protected and being loved. Intimacy can be learned if the desire is there. Feelings of love will usually follow. The problem that I see is that the person who had an affair has been corrupted by the experience. They miss the intense feelings and excitement that the affair produced which makes them no different than the alcoholic or drug addict. That is why such a person will find it difficult to fit back into a normal marriage. Some of these individuals go from one relationship to another trying to recapture the high that they had in the affair.. Usually when these people beome older or have had many bad relationship experiences they become wiser and realize that the high or so called passion in an affair is not normal. At that point they begin to appreciate their spouses and marriages without feeling they are missing something.<P>If I came across a bit too harsh I apologize. I do hope that Holly and her husband reconcile and rebuild their marriaages. Best wishes......max <BR><p>[This message has been edited by max (edited September 01, 1999).]

Max--<BR>You're right I am confused...but I think I'm ready to really give my marriage a chance.<BR>You also gave me some hope about the passion thing...maybe it is intimacy I'm looking for. What I do know is that I'm looking for something more and I felt that I had that with the OM. Although, I can't say for sure whether it would have lasted or not...it never had a chance to run it's course.

tnt, Yes, I think we can put up a wall to protect ourselves that stifles our passion. How do we get past it? I like to think that we can get the passion back after we learn to truly trust again. I hope so!<P>Interesting discussion, guys!

this is a GREAT thread, thanks Holly for starting it. I really liked Max's last post, made a lot of sense.<BR>holly, what attracted you to your husband when you first met him, and what made you decide to marry him? It might be good for you to really think of those things that made you love him then.<BR>Ive read that opposites attract and humans quite often tend to marry people with opposite personalities to theirs (eg shy + outgoing or serious + fun loving)but after a few years the very things that attracted us to them, then seem really irrating and we want them to change to be more like us! However, if we remember back to why we married them in the first place, and remembered how much we loved their dependability or quiet ways or whatever, we can turn the negatives more into positives by more acceptance and understanding again. Well something like that anyways!! <BR>

So what's wrong with passion? Passion is what keeps the species going, ya know? I think most of us have a strong need for passion. And because we do, we allow ourselves to indulge in the biggest fantasy of them all, marriage.<P>Really. Aren't we reveling in fantasy when we say "I do! Forever and ever!"? Real life has probably not entered the picture. Yet we tell ourselves that this person, who has been trying hard to show only their best side, is THE ONE & ONLY.<P>Sound like a betrayer's rationale? You're right, it is. The mechanics are virtually identical--only the situation is different.<P>And in both, when real life creeps in, the fantasy, and the passion, collapse. But the strong need for passion remains.<P>So what to do? Seek passion through a new fantasy? Some do, but that fantasy is likely to crash also. Try to create a new passion with the same person, without the fantasy? Many try, a few succeed, and I am truly envious of them.<P>Most though, I suspect, resign themselves to those promises made in the throes of fantasy, though the fantasy is long dead, and the passion, a dim memory.

Max, it sounds to me like you are trying to say that the only time someone feels 'passion' is in an affair and that its dangerous because its artificial?<BR>I can't speak for Holly but I would guess that she did at one time experience some intense passion in here marriage from her husband. (Was that addictive like heroin?) If so, there's were the addiction would have started and something went wrong along the way that she and other similar people were no longer able to find that passion at home. Some one or something turned it off.<BR>I honestly think that we are more guided by puritan ideas from the past than the media hype of today. We seem to expect marriage to lose its passion but that doesn't make a lot of sense. A married couple has the chance of 'mastering' the touch points and special fantasy's of a partner. As a husband I know my wife's most secret arousal spots and some take years to find. The Kama Sutra and similar works were written for married couples. <BR>As for Holly's husband in counselling. Both Holly and her H. have to change. Even if Holly changes to what to congform to her H's image? Ultimately she'd hate that and she'd be looking for a way back to herself. Probanle another affair not because its addictive but that those needs would still be wanting and a past way of fulfilling them will be easier. I heard it said once that you can blame the first affair on the one who had it, but the second affair points blame to the spouse who failed to respond to the first.<BR>I wrote previously that Holly needs to 'repent' I think I clarified that. But in Judgement we won't discover or hear of our sins; we'll hear of how our actions/nonactions lead others into sin.

Geez, Doug, that's a very depressing post there. How about creating a new fantasy with the person you married? That's what I did, and it worked. That spark and passion can be found again with your spouse, believe me.

Hey,<P>Madelyn, I agree with you. Renewed passion is available for marriage!!!<P>In Intended for Pleasure, one of the sexual fulfillment books that Harley recommends in His Needs, Her Needs, the authors (doctor and wife) explain that the husband and wife need to learn all about their spouse (I believe that they need to know about each other in every way!!) so that they can understand how sexual fulfillment (arousal, etc.) happens in each person and meet their spouse's sexual needs with intimacy and love. I recommend this book to start if anyone would like a first view of what should be done in the first days and months of marriage. Too bad I did not read this when I was a young adult!!!<P>Hugz and prayers,<BR>Thoughtful

Madelyn:<P>Sorry. Late night after a long stressful day, my mind dwells on the gloomier aspects of life.<P>I'm sincerely happy for those that have discovered a new fantasy with, and passion for, their mate. It's nice to know that at least SOMEBODY has been successful, eh?