I have to say, you really make me laugh LisaM! Hey...I thought I was a hot head about the strip club and boob issues! Hehe! Its nice to be able to relate to someone. By the way, my H is leaving to go out of town tomorrow(first time since I found out about last "indiscretions"). I'm handling it OK. We have talked and he promised it will never happen again. I hope this "lepord" will prove to me his spots have changed...wish me luck. <P><p>[This message has been edited by caron (edited January 12, 2000).]

Hey Caron - oh girl I am soooooo sorry. You will find your H's time away tough. Let me know how it all goes .<P>Good Luck. (Is he going out of town alone? Does he usually? Is there one particular person or group who are into boobie-kazoobie bars that he travels with?) How have you and H addressed his comments after pulling away from you (I know you love the guy but my immediate response was .....CREEP.....it takes one who lives with one to know one...or something like that). <BR>P.S. I'm kidding about the creep thing (though at the time you probably would have agreed?) I just empatize with where you are at.<BR>Cheers!

Geez, I don't get it.<P>Dr. Harley writes that <B> based on his extensive clinical experience </B> many spouses have a emotional need for an attractive spouse. More often it's a higher emotional need for the man, but I would guess that's 'cause we're more visually oriented.<P>Wishing it were not an emotional need does not make it not so.<P>Does this mean we are obligated to undergo herculean efforts to meet a spouse's needs? Of course not, and Dr. Harley never says we should. But we should certainly do "what we can, with what we got". To NOT do so, is to disregard and trivialize our spouse's wishes and feelings.<P>Lovebusting with a capital "L".

When, oh, when, will penis implants become a viable? I believe there are such things. If my SO suggested I get breast implants, I'd ask him when he's getting HIS implant too. <P>Ok, my suggestion does nothing towards building romantic love. But it does kind of show the double standard going on if some guy suggests his wife submit to something dangerous, and potentially disfiguring or life threatening. Now that is love (huh?)

I agree that a husband should not insist that his wife undergo plastic surgery. In our case my H and I agreed to it and I was very thankful that he was willing to put out the expense of the abdominalplasty and implants (insurance didn't pay for either) when I was not even working and he didn't even know if our marriage was going to stay together. The main difference I guess is that I really wanted to have it done. I had wanted to have it done for a long time. I didn't feel coerced I felt priviledged that he would provide it for me.<P>It's amazing how good it feels, disregard for a minute the fact that the media has made breast implants the norm. Most men wouldn't even like the look of a Playboy Centerfold with natural DD cups. They would look strange.<P>Look at the old Roman paintings of naked women. These were natural women who probably had already had children. That is what is natural and there was a time when that was considered beautiful. <P>In the 60's during the time of "Twiggy" flat chests were in and bras were out.<P>My H really likes long hair, I don't have the kind of hair or face that looks good with long hair, my H doesn't insist that I wear it long. I have tried, though to please him, until it came to the point that it made me feel worse about myself.<P>Remember what I said before "confidence is attractive". I have found if you hold your head up and have confidence that it what people see.<P>By the way, we all know men obsess over their size. Where else did all the jokes about socks in your pants come from.<P>I have heard that one of the most popular plastic surgeries for men is pec implants. Fake muscles vs. fake breasts.<P>Another interesting point, those Models and many exotic dancers use body paints to cover up all the stretch marks and dimples. Even the girls at Hooters have to wear Hooters panyhose, it is required, and these hose keep even the flabbiest thighs and butts from wiggling.

Here is something I like to tell my H when he starts talking about big boobs. Breasts are nothing but fat, let's face it.<P>I tell him I have two even larger wads of fat in my butt with even better cleavage. All I would have to do is stick little pink dots on them and he could enjoy.

Let's try to put this another way............I acknowledge that he is perfectly entitled to his opinions and desires however juvenile I - and most women - feel that they may be (sorry boys, I can say things here that I can't say to him right?) My concern lies in a few questions:<P>1. What about when honesty is in itself a love buster? (To state that my breasts are smaller than they could be. Yes, a push up works when clothing is worn - padded even a better option but what about when there is no clothing at all.....) In order to satisfy this need, it would require significant health risks on my part - not just the surgery but life-long - I consider this a HUGE love buster - anyone who would want someone to undertake such risks is love busting <P>2. What about when a strong EN that I cannot meet (yes K, I could but then I might not be able to debate this issue with you any longer because I might spend the rest of my natural days in bed due to complications ....or worse... and we don't want that do we) clashes with a bad habit he has - the strong EN that I cannot (for K "will not") meet clashes with his strong desire/need to look at such lovelies on a spouse so that he doesn't partake in a bad habit of gawking all over the place (unless again this habit is undercover work for Wonder Bra) and that clashes with my EN to feel admired ....."I can't meet your EN, but I'll raise you a bad habit and ask you to ante up one of my EN's all the while not meeting yours" (or something like that). <P>3. What about when there is no grey - only black and white? This is the big question here. I DO NOT HAVE LARGE BREASTS (a forced B cup if you must know the details). I do look as good as I can (I work out regularly, maintain a good weight (120 at 5'2" - and don't forget to include by B cup breasts in that equation) and am healthy. HOWEVER, I will never have the same body that I had BP (before pregnancy) it is absolutely impossible for some - beyond breast issue (girls, you know what I mean)<P>Now I understand Harley's take on the issue. There has got to be some clarity though for "reasonable debate". Yes D&C he should be with someone with gargantuan balloons but he isn't (the poor buggar) he has me and even this package isn't as full or visually appealing as it was BP (I am only human). <P>ESSYBOO: I LOL'ed about your buttocks/fat comment and I admire your devotion to meeting your H's needs however you even state that it hurts when he compliments you now where he didn't before - I suppose as you say, this is the good outweighing the bad. <P>Boys, you cannot tell me that you would feel no differently if your wife told you that she felt that she would prefer if your penis were bigger and you asked the questions K suggested and came up with the fact that it's a question of aesthetics and what gets your W going. You mean to say that you would not be AT ALL self conscious when you are together and engaged in the deed? Knowing that she would prefer to look at other men's Big Louis' than yours would NOT have any effect? I don't know, you could hash this issue all day and get nowhere (which is still where we are at). I guess the simple answer is that there is NO way to meet an EN when the only option is in no way in keeping with the POJA (girls, how enthusiastic are you about giving up a day of your life to have strangers tear apart the breasts that the Good Lord provided you and insert some man-made things that put your good health in jeopardy, for the "pleasure" of being completely loved by your spouse?) Would you then be able to feel that you are truly loved for YOU? <P>There is a line that must be drawn in the desire to accomodate EN's. I suppose that everybody has their own line based on their own view - vive la difference! I am just confused as to the implications on a long term relationship when this is not possible. Are affairs and divorce the only options - I like to think not. K, I also appreciate your suggestion of a session with the good Doctor. I threw this out for simple feedback. I am aware that we could go that route - so could everybody posting on this board.<BR>Cheers!

This thread is driving me kind or crazy (or is it crazier???).<P>You ladies here can all "agree" that men's infatuations with breasts are juvenile, silly, etc. All us men can say the same thing about your "needs" for conversation... As Doug said very well, it's when you ignore and trivialize your spouse's needs that you're asking for trouble. That's the MAJOR point here. No one has ever said that you MUST HAVE RECONSTRUCTIVE SURGERY to meet the "attractive spouse" need. But it is an option. <P>When is honesty a lovebuster??? Never. Becuase lying to protect someone's feelings doesn't work. Lisa, you state that "there are significant risks for the surgery". Breast surgery with saline implants is relatively minor. There are risks, and I'm not trivializing your opinion. But you're much more 'at risk' by driving or riding in an automobile than your health risk from breast implants---even silicone ones.<P>What's the real lovebuster to you?? Is it the suggestion of surgery. Or is it the implication that your husband doesn't find you attractive? It's not something you've even discussed with your husband in a serious and well-intentioned discussion---it's just his "actions" speaking louder than words. And that's very dangerous to interpret. I found myself gawking at a very lovely black woman the other day. Does that mean that if my wife doesn't get boob and butt implants, and do a reverse "Michael Jackson" on her skin?? Of course not---but I'm sure that she could have interpreted my actions in that way, should she have chosen to.<P>If your husband did say that you weren't meeting his needs as an attractive spouse, would that hurt you??? Of course. But if he weren't meeting YOUR needs for financial security or conversation or affection (and he thought he was, or couldn't possibly), he'd be hurt too.<P>But it's how you react, and what you do with that information that is important. And the flip side to the rule of complete honesty is the Policy of Joint Agreement. You discuss. You see each other's side---discover their point of view. And then you negotiate, until you either arrive at a win-win conclusion, or you don't. If you don't, then you should "do nothing" except brainstorm some more.<P>Oh Lisa, I've gotten off track. Your important steps are:<P>1. Identify if it's really a need of your husbands. Not by his actions, but by honest (non-lovebusting conversation).<P>2. Discuss it. Discuss EVERYTHING---all options, no matter how farfetched. Let him know how you really feel about these options. I look at you "complaining" about the medical risks as an excuse. Your real position is "I don't want to have elective surgery for this". Probably because you don't feel you should have to. It's against your beliefs. If the REAL reason behind your hesitation is medical risks, I suggest that you consult a doctor who is a specialist, because you're overblowing these risks in your dialogue here (I realize that some of it is for "effect"---I do it all the time ) But when you quote "medical risks" as your reason, you're being dishonest. If I was your husband (and this was important to me), I'd find a risk-free implant. And then---you'd still not want it... That's why HONESTY is so important.<P>3. Make a serious attempt to resolve the issue, using the policy of joint agreement. If you can't agree, just the effort will tell your spouse that you care, and that you wanted to meet their needs. It's just "impossible". And it almost NEVER is impossible. That's this "line in the sand" that you're talking about---you discuss this honestly, and see what overlap there is between your line and your husband's. And whether there's any room for movement in those lines. You haven't discussed several other options to make your breasts "larger", such as hormonal therapies, another pregnancy, etc. Hey---they may all sound ridiculous to you, but they are real options.<P>But in my final analysis Lisa, you haven't even got to the first step. You are assuming that one of your husband's emotional needs is huge breasts---I'm betting it's not. If this is really worrying you, you need to start with the first step. <P>

Hey Lisa! This post just keeps on rolling. To answer your questions...My H has gone througout our relationship. First it was when he was in the military, and now its with buisness accociates and co-workers. When hes out of town its really easy because his company pays for it...customer service. Some service! He would just hide the credit card bills or have someone else pay. Theres so more to his indiscretions while away on buisness that would only make me crazy to write about. <P>Theres so many different views on what are valid EN. One of my EN are to be a sexual turn-on to my husband. He says I am, but I still feel his hesitation when it comes to looking at or touching my breasts. I also believe that physical attraction is very important, but a line must be drawn on pointing out specific details that realisticaly can't be changed. I'm into fitness myself, and I eat healthy and I work hard on looking good(for myself and H). My husband does the same. Our EN are to look good for eachother. If I were to start gaining weight, or I wanted to dye my hair black and my H said his EN werent being met, then I would work out more and keep my hair blonde. On the other hand, my breasts arent their perky peaks anymore, and I resent that my H had to point that out. His hair is thining on top, and I loved his thick hair, but I'm not going to say anything to him because I know he would be self-concious about it.<P>The funny thing is when I told my H I was considering breast implants he said.."NO WAY!" He said he didnt want men gawking at me and thinking nasty thoughts. Yet, he's disastisfied with my breasts. It can make Ya crazy! <P>

In the case of surgical alteration of one's body, especially breast implants, I don't think it's EVER an issue of POJA, it's more one of "The Principle of Spousal Capitulation."<P>I'm with Lisa on this one. I think that asking your spouse to give up a day or more, risk her life under anesthesia, and ELECTIVELY allow a doctor to take a knife to her body in order to introduce subcutaneous gel-filled bags, because YOU, K, or Essyboo's H, or Lisa's H, or any other overgrown adolescent, can't deal with a real woman, has NOTHING to do with joint agreement, and everything to do with "Grow Up, Guys. You knew what her cup size was when you married her!"

K - If you don't like the heat, stay out of the sun. Are you feeling frustrated because I do not agree with your line of thinking? <P>Na, na, na, na, na, na - we have spoken on the issue (lastnight) and he does acknowledge it's importance to him. Claims it was left out of EN questionnaire because he knows there are limitations to some needs and this is one of them.......... <P>You are right. I would not have implants under ANY circumstances. Not you nor any doctor in the world can offer any GUARANTEES that everything would be ok. On the flip, I can guarantee that no surgery DOES. Also, seems to be a short term solution. What happens in 10 years time - the laws of gravity and such? What about wrinkles, brown spots on the hands? Where do you draw the line?<P>Are you also telling me that there is NOTHING in the world that you would not do for your wife to gain her love/meet her EN? We all have our limits and preferences K. We can only analize something so much before the reality of "that's just the way it is" sinks in. As an example - can you tell me why nails on a blackboard make people shiver? It just does and no matter how much discussion and debate you have over this, some people will always be bothered by this sound. Point is, there is only SO much that we can do to meet some needs. I do not believe that we can meet EN's at any and all costs. If your wife had a huge fetish to be with a man with only one arm and I could find you a safe proceedure, would you do it? Even after brainstorming away, if this was a huge issue for her? What about if she really likes gangsters? I do respect the fact that H has his own preferences as I respect the fact that you have yours. My entire POINT has been that I CANNOT meet these preferences within MY comfort level and there is no way to negociate it - how do you address this? There is nothing that you could say to me that would MAKE me feel comfortable about such a proceedure. MB and the suggestions within are meant to put us in a "better place". The equation could look like this: happy relationship = happy self. There is an opportunity though where you would need to subtract from one to accomodate the other, where compromise does not exist without doing so - fine as long as within your comfort level.<P>It is interesting that at absolutely no time have you suggested a more holistic approach - that of maybe desentisisation (spelling is way off....) to societies influence on H's preferences - that this is an issue that I alone must address. After all is said and done, and we brainstorm our heads off, there are still some things that will have no satisfactory conclusion.<P>PS You don't have kids do you? Pregancy reeks havoc in ways that are less than complimentary sometimes. After kid 1, everything was still intact, kid 2 DECREASED breast size and added roadmaps to my body in places I don't need to find.<P>Cheers

PS to K:<BR>Can you really compare a need for large boobie-a-la-roobies to a need for conversation? Picture this by the water cooler: "you mean she wanted you to TALK to her last night? To have a conversation? The nerve. There's no way you can keep up with that man - what are you going to do?"

Dazed and Confused:<P>How would YOU respond if your husband asked you to get implants??<P>If you lovebust, scream at him, and tell him to "Grow up"---then you are NOT handling him with the compassion and care that you should be. And that's bad for the marriage.<P>If on the other hand, you let him know that it'll be a cold day in hell before you'd undergo that surgery---that you don't believe in it and couldn't imagine it---but ask him to suggest alternatives, then you're handling it correctly. And you're building love in the marriage.<P>What you're in essence saying is that there are times when the other spouse deserves a good lovebusting---because their opinion is completely ridiculous. That's dangerous ground in a marriage---unless you define those conditions in advance. It's like your example about housework on the other thread---there are men that probably feel about folding laundry the same way that you do about elective surgery.<P>We know how YOU feel about this. But that's not important (except for you and h)---you should try to focus on how to have EVERYONE deal with the issue respectfully and productively.<P>And for the record---my wife wanted implants at one point, and I told her that while it was OK with me, that she didn't need them as far as I was concerned... I don't want to be labelled a "boob monster".

Everyone needs to take a deep breath. <P>This sounds like a debate over whether we should have breast implants when it started out as a discussion of how to meet an emotional need that Lisa feels is unrealistic. <P>This is the way I understand it:<P>1. Lisa's H has admitted he really has a thing for large breasts.<P>2. Lisa's H has admitted that he is somewhat unsatisfied with her breasts.<P>3. Lisa is insecure about them because of his judgement.<P>4. Lisa is not prepared and without major brainwashing will never be prepared to have implants.<P>Do I have it?<P>Question:<P>1. Has he ever told you he was unsatisfied with you physically and in general?<P>2. Has he ever talked to you about other needs he needs satisfied?<P>Opinions are like bellybuttons, everybody has one, and since all my plastic surgery my opinion is altered just like my bellybutton. (In an abdominalplasty they redo the bellybutton and reattach everything, so I have a fake bellybutton, it's cute though ).<P>I feel her H will have to make some adjustments here. He could be more sensitive. I am not convinced he is going to be unfaithful to her just because he doesn't like her figure. <P>Even Harley states that if you can greatly satisfy 3 or 4 of you spouses top 5 then you are still doing good.<P>I feel that you need to express to your H that this bothers you and concerns you and ask him to stop lovebusting with stares and comments. He also needs to give you plenty of positive feedback on the things that he does like about you. It means so much more to me now when my H tells me he likes my eyes. Their real. There will always be women out there with larger implants than I have.<P>There was a thread started by me a long time ago regarding what all the OW and OM looked like and wether us betrayed people were surprised by how ordinary and common they looked. It doesn't have to boil down to cup size and waistelines. If you satisfy his other needs and do a really good job at it, your boobs are going to please him just fine.<P>I mentioned before about my hair being short. I once commented to my stylist that my H had a real thing for long hair. She asked me why and I told "I guess he just wants hair in his face when we have sex". She got a mischevious look on her face and said "just tell him that he could still have that depending on where he put his face".<P>That may be a little crude, but the point is when it comes down to the heat of passion and that is most men's primary need, the little things (no pun intended) become less important.<P>True love is blind.<P>I worry about old age and wrinkles. I have a very physically oriented H. There will probably come a time when I am no longer physically attractive to him, but I am striving to have developed the love and devotion that will see past that. The way I am doing that is by satisfying his needs.<P>If I had had any doubt about getting implants for me (not him) I wouldn't have done it. It really didn't solve anything in our marriage, but it did make me feel better about myself and that is my "bellybutton opinion".<P> .<P>Liking breasts seems rediculous to most of us women, but it's real. The media is making it hard on us right now.<P>I think that men with no hair on their chest is sexy. My h isn't going to wax his chest. I don't think I have ever even mentioned it, but I know he wouldn't do it. It doesn't make any difference in the way I feel about him. The only thing it does is since he is so much taller than me it makes it where I have hair in my face during sex.<P>It is up to me to not make a big deal about it. If I were to start talking about it all the time, then No. 1 it would probably became a lot more important to me and No. 2 it would become an issue for him too.

Just an idea...My H would also never criticize to me something I could not change. But, I know he has some preferences that are different from me. That is OK...he is different from my physical ideal also, but I love him anyway (probably true of your H also). When we married, I knew he loved women with long red hair (mine's brown, and fairly short). If we see a woman with really beautiful long red hair, I often will comment on how pretty her hair is. He will agree, and that defuses the whole issue. I grant you that commenting on another woman's breasts is a bit different, but you might try a general comment about having a nice figure; acknowledging that there is something to admire keeps things open, and his thoughts are not "forbidden"--which would only make them more interesting, IMHO. Don;t do this unless you can say it without sounding hurt & resentful, tho.<BR>Also, you might try being creative with your assets when making love...not to be crude, but using your breasts to massage him can be quite interesting.

I'm probably nuts to even answer this.<P>The question of what I'd do if my H wanted me to get implants is completely academic, because my H bends over backwards to not make demands on me.<P>I permed my hair for 10 years because it was easy to take care of. I knew he wasn't nuts about it, but he never said, "Don't perm it." If he had, before all this happened, would I have stopped perming? I don't know.<P>In our "new" marriage, he told me once, when the perm was almost grown out, that he liked it better that way, but that if I liked it permed, to keep doing it. I told him I thought I could probably work with the hairdresser to do something with cut that would be just as easy. He said, "Don't change it for me." <P>And I did anyway. And you know what? It's healthier without the perm, and I have a great cut.<P>The fact that he WASN'T making a demand that I change it made me more likely to change it.<P>But when you're talking things like perms, hair color, things like that, it's a far cry from having surgery.<P>I agree with Lisa on this one...where does the need for "attractive spouse" end? And what constitutes "attractive spouse"? Suppose what Lisa's H really needs is a wife who looks like an 18-year-old forever. And he also wants six kids. How far should Lisa go in order to meet this need? At what point does she stop? Age 40? 50? 60? Should she just be prepared for her H to leave her when even the best plastic surgery leaves her just looking lifted, rather than like the 18-year-old he needs so desperately? And if that's inevitable, why should she bust her *ss trying to please a man whose "needs" are so completely unreasonable?<P>I'm less than five feet tall. Suppose my H had a need for a tall woman (he's tall). What would you suggest I do in that case? 4" spike heeled [censored]-me pumps do have to come off at some point.<P>You know, K, what you seem to lose in this worshiping of the Principle of Spousal Capitulation you do, is that a certain amount of love is accepting a person as God made him/her. God makes us age. My H doesn't look like an 18-year-old anymore. Sure, I like to look at younger guys. I've always liked young guys. But would I trade him for any of them? No. Do I ogle young guys when he's around? No. Do I verbalize that I think some 25-year-old actor is cute? No. Why? BECAUSE IT WOULD BE HURTFUL TO HIM.<P>WHERE IS THE PRINCIPLE OF RESPECT? HUH?<P>DO I WISH I HAD ONE OF THOSE GUYS INSTEAD OF HIM? <P>NO.<P>I recognize the difference between fantasy people who appear in magazine photographs and in movies, and the real man who sleeps next to me every night. And I wouldn't trade him for any of them.<P>My H is not a penis, or pectoral muscles, or abs, or biceps, or anything like that. He's a PERSON, and it's the PERSON that I love -- THE WHOLE PACKAGE...JUST AS GOD MADE HIM....AND WHATEVER TIME DOES TO HIM.<P>I don't see why women should have to settle for any less.<P>

Right on D&C. Couldn't have said it better myself...

Hey guys - thanks for all. Will continue to read up on everyone but due to hurtful comments on Other Topics, I am signing off. P.S. To Promised - pretend you are a kid whose "friend" just made a hurtful comment, would you want to hang around? No, I think you'd take your marbles and head home. Ya, this is entertaining - just about as entertaining as spending hours and hours reading MB website and about as entertaining as the reasons I entered "infidelity" into the search engine topic line which led me here. I enjoy the knowledge and appreciate the insight I gain here however, you need not concern yourselves with being confused by anything I have to say from here on in because I won't. <P>Again - to all others, thanks, I REALLY, REALLY appreciate your thoughts, comments and the care that I have felt from you.<BR>Cheers<BR>Lisa

I feel we have to keep perspective here. Some of you are talking about lust some love, Some are talking about personal visual preferences and others about total packages.<P>The issue isn't preferences ad maturity, it is what we share with our spouse and how.<P>If Lisa is asking her H about his approval of her breasts she needs to accept the answer. Her H shouldn't feel he needs to vocalize this "preference" and hurt her feelings. He is making it more important to him than it needs to be and he is also making it more important to her.<P>If I pressured my H about my H or anything else, you chose, he would eventually tell me his personal feelings. If I made him tell me what he wanted him to do he would and then I would feel pressured to do it. This was our old story and I felt he was too controlling.<P>We all need to tell our spouse what we need in a way that shows nothing but love.

lisa,<BR> you asked about my mom- that she only accepted herself after her second, no third husband treasured and cherished her body the way it was. yes, that was what happened, and it was wonderful, however, there were other things that she lost when she left my dad, that were not gained in her second and third marriages. you may not get over this hurdle, with this man. you could find another guy who prefers your body to anyones, but then you'll find out rotten stuff about him. my mom left her first 2 husbands because they committed adultery. each time she found "mr. wonderful"--who had some not so wonderful qualities and what i learned is that there are NO PRINCE CHARMINGS out there. you've got to weigh the good with the lousy. <BR> i wish my mom was able to find her own self acceptance/body acceptance all by herself---not dependent on what her man thought. i desperately want that for myself, and especially for my daughters. i don't want to judge myself through my husband's eyes, only through God's eyes. i don't know the answer to how in 3 easy steps--but i am working on it. and i think you are too.i don't want to "need" his adoration to feel good about myself. <BR> your h's disrespect and childish way of dealing with you through this makes me mad though---maybe you should buy him some big huge fake ones (like prosthetics) and slip them under his pillow. and while you're at it get yourself a big huge.....i'd better stop there.