I read Love Must Be Tough, can someone explain how to be lovingly tough without making them think you are pushing them away and closing the door on the relationship.

laura,<P>your H would have to be deaf and blind not to hear and see how much you love him and want him to come home.... please don't keep telling him. the purpose of loving toughness is to stop begging and allow nature to take its course. <P>i had a hard time, too, with the concept of not constantly reminding my H of how much i love him and want things to work out between us. i was afraid, as you are, that he would forget or that he would believe that, when i stopped begging, i no longer wanted to fix things or no longer loved him. <P>there were two mistakes i made along the way: (things you might want to avoid) <BR>1.

Your mistakes didn't show up !

Oh yeah, please tell me...what do you do if he is visiting the kids, tucks them in and wants to have sex? I still love him. Should I do it to satisfy him and suffer the emotional hurt after he leaves, or tell him no. What do you do????????

Continued message….. (sorry, I got kicked out somehow!)<P>When I first attempted loving toughness and stopped the begging, I made the mistake (MISTAKE #1) of being too cold and standoff-ish. My H then mistook my actions/words, telling me that he thought I stopped wanting to keep our marriage together. I have since learned (am still learning!) to be “detached” without being cold and unfeeling. When we talk, I try to be polite, friendly, kind…. But with self-confidence and self-respect. This is the person my H was attracted to and wanted to marry in the first place! The less I suggest we should get together, the more he suggests it! <P><BR>A husband and wife SHOULD talk to each other as though they are friends – they are supposed to be BEST friends!!!! So talk to him in that manner. I know it’s very hard…. But I can tell you that (for me) it got easier as time went on and the results were well worth it. When your H calls about custody issues, discuss custody issues. Be polite and kind… but don’t mention that you are pining away for him and that you miss him so much it hurts – even though that may indeed be true. There is no “perfect” way to do this loving toughness thing… and you will probably make mistakes along the way. I did and still do! But that’s the way life works – you’ll figure it out!<P>I don’t think it’s inappropriate, though, to end a conversation with “I love you.” Don’t be too sad or hurt if and when he doesn’t return the phrase, at least at first. Wait until he hangs up or walks away to shed any tears. Saying it to him – without a plead for a return sentiment or any pleading or coercion on your part – is your way of still letting him know you care, hence the “loving” in loving toughness.<P>I guess what we have to learn is that there is a difference between leaving the door open for your H and pushing/pulling him through it. Loving toughness is the former; begging, pleading, clinging, etc. is the latter. Do you see what I mean?<P>The best thing you will (hopefully) learn through this is that you have to love yourself and be able to take care of yourself. That doesn’t mean you don’t love your H, your family, etc and could do without them – that’s what I thought at first (MISTAKE #2). It just means that you can be comfortable with the person you are – someone you respect and take care of just as you do for the others you love. <P>Laura, trust in God (or whatever higher power you might believe in)…. If your marriage works out, it’s because it is meant to work out. Pray that’s what is meant to be and try to make yourself happy in the meantime! (I am trying to do the same!) My thoughts are with ya’! <P>And on the issue of sexual relations, I don’t know... My H and I have had some sexual encounters since our “break-up”… and the first one or two occurred before I had “detached” and was still clinging to him and begging him to stay. I felt as though I had to let him have sex with me in order to “keep him”. How crappy can a person feel? THAT is not an act of self-respect!!!! And I felt used and unloved afterwards. I also think that my H felt as though all he had gotten was physical release. I think he may have even felt guilty! <P>Since then, I have learned to show some self-respect (aren’t you tired of that word from me by now? ). My H actually invited me to his place last week and stopped our sexual encounter with the words, “I don’t want you to think that sex is all I’m after.” I was shocked and pleased! <P>I guess I would advise that you not get involved sexually with him until you feel that he is not just “using” you. Yes, you are his wife; but he is not treating you that way right now. I hope you try loving toughness and that changes start to occur with your H’s attitude towards you and his commitment to your marriage. Then you would be less troubled by this dilemma and feel less like you are being used – as I felt during the earlier encounters described above. I would suggest telling him (politely and without tears!!!) that sex with him right now would be too emotionally painful for you and that you would prefer not to right now. <P>I hope my thoughts help... <BR>

Laura,<P>If you've stated to your husband clearly that you want this marriage to be successful, and are willing to start doing the work necessary when he's willing to start (that would mean counseling, perhaps moving back), then I would cut off contact with him.<P>Be somewhere else when he needs to see the kids. Absolutely no sex---you shouldn't be meeting any of his needs while you're in this phase. You don't want to build up resentment (hate) for him over a long term separation---he may come to his senses in 6 months, but by that time you wouldn't want to try.<P>A complete, no-contact separation would be the best way to protect your love for him. I'd let him know this up-front: this isn't about punishing him, but it's about protecting your feelings for him. It will also have the effect of you not meeting any of his needs: that's good, because this is the decision he made by leaving you. He needs to realize exactly what it is he's missing.

I had my first face to face encounter with my husband since he has left. It was for about 15 minutes this morning. Everything was civil and nice and I was doing better today. I didn't bug him or ask him questions. I did tell him that he seemed happy. He didn't really confirm that feeling or deny it either. <P>Unfortunately I asked him if I could give him a peck and he said sure..............as long as you can do it without getting any false hope. Well, that hurt. But I didn't show that it hurt. I just gave him a quick peck on the lips and went on my merry way.<P>I just seem to think, no matter how much I really change, that he will not be back. Yes I still need to change for my own reasons and for my future anyway. But I was really hoping that the changes would make heim want to come home. I know it is too soon to tell, but he just seems to determined to be happy alone. <P>I think I just need some cheer leaders to keeping thinking positive. This morning was the first morning that I have not cried. That feels great. I know that either way I will be ok, but I want my husband back. We know each other so well. I don't want to get to know some one new.<P>[This message has been edited by Laura W. (edited May 21, 1999).]<P>I've already screwed up. I slept with my H knowing it would not make any difference. It makes it harder for me. He is definitely wanting distance though. He acts like my every small request (that he agreed to before leaving) it just a big pain in the a**. Like he wanted to leave his tools in my garage in exchange for cutting the grass. Well, the grass looks bad and according to him I just called to ***** at him. I just want the grass cut. <P>I miss him so much.but life has to go on. I still haven't been able to bring myself to take off my wedding rings. Would you take them off? What will that make him think? <p>[This message has been edited by Laura W. (edited May 24, 1999).]

I have more questions !! Day before yesterday my husband picked an arguement about how much time he was spending with the kids. Seems like he is constantly trying to pick arguements to justify his leaving. Always says...see this is why I left. But yesterday he came to visit the kids and started acting like a [censored] again and I plainly told him that I refuse to argue and if he can't treat me nice and be respectful while visiting the kids in my house, then he would need to take them somewhere else. He changed his tune a little while later. <P>When we argued the other day, he did inform me that no matter what changes I make for the better, that he would probably never come back anyway. Well, I told him that I was changing for me and my future and whether or not that included him would be up to him. <P>He said good because you need to change. He sounds so determined to be without me. Do you guys think that he could change his mind later down the road when he really does see the changes? Or do you think that when someone is so determined to make it, that nothing can budge their mindset. He is extremely stubborn.<P>I was hoping that God would somehow change his heart. He needs to be there for his family. But he has to be willing to go to marriage counseling to come back. I've already said this to him. It may chase him away, but we can't just go back to the way things were. Do I sound correct or just desparate?<P>Laura <p>[This message has been edited by Laura W. (edited May 26, 1999).]

hi, laura,<P>i know well how you feel right now. i was there, too. i have told my H before that unless he goes to counseling with me, things will never work out between the two of us. then i read more of dr. harley's work and realized that this attitude was the BIGGEST love buster that of all -- the most disrespectful judgement ever. i am learning SO MUCH about myself these days -- it's the only good things that is coming out of this whole bad situation! <P>anyway, i have learned that my H will learn and cooperate when i LET HIM DECIDE TO DO SO HIMSELF. i cannot force him to go to counseling with me (even though i KNOW that this would be to our advantage). but the more i push, the more he resists. when i stop pushing, he stops pulling away, probably thinking "thank God she finally backed off!" without my pushing, i think he feels less defensive -- a natural reaction when someone is trying to tell you "how you should be".<P>i agree with your thoughts "we cannot go back to the way things were." none of us in this type of situation can... it'll just get us back here in this same place later on. BUT we (us and our spouses) have to willingly agree -- each of us -- to change together. if you are willing to change and make your life better and you H is not, well.... maybe he should not be your H. you DON'T have to decide that right now, though!!!! (i know you don't want to hear that. i don't want others telling me that i should "find someone else" or "find someone better for me" either... i want the H i married! but the facts are the facts, i guess.)<P>laura, i hope this doesn't make you feel as though YOU are to blame for everything bad in your relationship. your H is practicing a lot of love busters, too -- telling you that you NEED to change (major disrespectful judgement) and saying "see, this is why i left." you need to be strong enough and have faith in yourself enough to let those things slide off of you like water off a duck's back. your H is obviously in a lot of pain and feeling as though he needs to hurt you to feel better. that is not right, but seems as though that is what he is doing. take heart that my H, too, made our marriage failure out to be MY fault, too. i remind you: it takes TWO to tangle (or tango, as the case may be!).<P>command respect, laura, by practicing respect for your H and walking away when your H is disrespectful to you. you don't need to be put down by someone you love very much -- it will only compromise your love for him. get some distance between yourself and him and take care of yourself -- take a long bath, a long walk, read a good book, etc., whatever makes you feel better about yourself. and try not to focus too much on changing anyone's mind. (easier said than done, i know.) loving toughness gets easier... try reading dobson's "give and take" and underline all the information in there that is a reflection of you and your life. that's how i am learning about myself and how i can do my part to make a marriage work -- whether it be this marriage or another one someday in my distant future. <P>God bless, laura...<P>p.s. -- i am still married -- at least on paper filed in some courthouse somewhere. i will keep my rings on until that changes. <P>p.s.s. -- what do you think, hollyann? anything additional that you learned in your experiences with your H?<p>[This message has been edited by Mrs. Retep (edited May 26, 1999).]

\<p>[This message has been edited by HollyAnn (edited July 07, 1999).]

Ok, Ok, Ok, I am doing better now. Last night was a day off for my husband, but it was a day that he wasn't suppose to spend with the kids. So i wondered if he would go through the day without calling. He didn't. He called my work to tell me that he was going to ship some equipment that he keeps in my garage. He knew he didn't have to call me for this. <P>Then last night after work I took my daughter shopping with me until about 9:00pm and then he had called while I was out to tell the kids goodnight. So I called him back about 9:30ish and let the kids tell him goodnight and my son hung up the phone and gave it to me. Well, he called right back to make sure that I had a camera for today (daughter graduating into kindergarten). I said yes and he said...you do know that I miss your companionship don't you? I said I guess so. Then he said, but I don't miss the arguing. I told him that I didn't miss that either, but he had to know that if he ever wanted to come back that things would be different and left it at that. I told him that we would see him tomorrow and that I had to go to bed. We said goodnight and I said I do still love you and he said he knows. No pressure. And he didn't act like I put any pressure on him. He asked if he could take the family out to dinner for celebration for my daughter tonight. I guess I'll go so I can start showing my wonderful new attitude toward life and my new strength that I have found through God. <P>Any suggestions anyone?

\<BR><p>[This message has been edited by HollyAnn (edited July 07, 1999).]

Laura,<P>This will seem very obvious, but I'll point it out anyway:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>he said...you do know that I miss your companionship don't you? ... Then he said, but I don't miss the arguing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>When you spend time with him, be a great companion, and DON'T ARGUE. <P>He's giving you good insight to his needs and what he perceives as "lovebusters". You need to take those cues and act on them. But I'm with Holly Ann in that you should only have contact with him for as long as you want it. Make these visits short, sweet, pleasant. Leave him wanting more.

So when he invited us to dinner tonight, should I go or say that I am busy or what? I do want to go, but it leaves me feeling very empty once he goes to his new apartment. He invited me over to see it and I turned him down. I just said I really didn't need to see where he lives. the kids seem to like it. <P>So do you mean I should nto even tell him that I still love him? I only do it ocassionally. Not everytime he calls. But if you think I should stop all together I will. Because he knows. <P>Boy this is hard. And yes of course, there will be no arguements!! I am sick of that too. the no sex thing will be hard, but I will do my best for as long as I can.

Well, we went to graduation and then dinner. Everything was fine, but I felt real tense inside. Once home it was that lonely feeling again. So I called him to tell him that his mother had called and I told him that coming home was a little hard tonight. He said, "I know what you mean. After seeing Sara (our daughter), I cried all the way home." He told me that she is the innocent victim in all this and doesn't understand. But he won't come home for her. Which I guess I wouldn't want that anyway. <P>I told him that I was going to start honoring his request that I start living like he is never coming back. But I did tell him that I was still planning on keeping up my new changes and would pray that someday he would notice so our children would not have to grow up as we did. He said OK. But he won't say he loves me anymore because he says that it makes it harder. <P>I will continue to move on with my life, but there is a part of me that will always hope that he changes his mind, even though he says he won't. I guess that's love. But I can't stay in this stage anymore, it is driving me nuts. I am doing ok though. I've started keeping myself busy and doing things with friends and our kids. It is really strange not being with him. But I guess I'll get used to that. <P>Any comments. Yes I know I shouldn't have called. And I WILL do better.

\<p>[This message has been edited by HollyAnn (edited July 07, 1999).]

We had a long talk about the sex issue. He says that he feels that we are not using each other. He says that he still has feeling involved with it and misses me very much. He said that whether we had sex or not, that it would not affect his decision to come home. He said that while we are in the limbo stage, he thought it would be good if we took care of each other so that neither of us would be unfaithful while he makes his decision. You know that I had rather have sex every now and then rather than to see him turn to someone else eventually. No more family outings. I told him that. I also bought a kitchen table to replace the one that he took so that he could see that I was starting to live like he is not coming back. If the sex issue is not going to affect his decision, why shouldn't we do it every now and then. I am living my life as normal as possible and doing the loving toughness thing. I can't stand the thought of him being with someone else right now. Not that he would, but I don't want to take the chance.

He is going to be at my house tonight to visit the kids. I am going straight after work to have dinner with a friend and told him that I would be home around 8:30 so that he could go home. But I have a feeling he is going to want to hang around. I can tell he is not in any way decided what to do about us. But he does miss us and the companionship. Sleeping with him at this point doesn't set me back. So what to do???

\<p>[This message has been edited by HollyAnn (edited July 07, 1999).]

Please help me. This is only the beginning of the 4th week. I even feel lonely when he is around. I realize that things could get better and he could change his mind, but the way things are right now are killing me. I am so lonely sometimes. I always have the kids so I can't always hook up with a friend and go out to get things off my mind like he can.<BR> <BR>He was at my house on Thursday and I made the mistake of asking the dumb questin - "So do you have any new phone numbers for your little black book?" I really didn't think he would hestitate to say no, but he stumbled and finally said yes. And he gave the girl his car phone number. I listened to her voice on a message and she did say that she just met him the other night, so at least I know it is not an ongoing thing from the past. He has told me that he is not ready to be interested yet and has not slept with anyone else. He says he still loves me and isn't past that yet.<P>He spent the night at my house last night because we thought my daughter was still going to be sick and I couldn't miss work this morning. And of course I slept with him. My suggestion though.<P>He is just acting like a friend. I know I have to be his friend, but just being friends is too hard. You know.. he'll call up just to ask something and everything is just as if we were not married. But damn it we are. He is treating me like I am just his friend and nothing else to him. I guess I have to face the fact that for now that is all I am too him. He still loves me, but doesn't want that to be part of the feelings he shows. I know this is a long process and I need patience, but I feel like I am hurting so bad because my mind won't let me think he is coming back. <P>I am going to try to think positively that even he doesn't want me, I am going to be better and stronger because of this situation. But GOD... I want the Lord to bring him home to his family. I know I seem like a person who has no initiative right now, but this is so hard. <P>You know what? unfortunately I think I do a lot better when I don't see him except for the kids. I fear that pulling away will jeopardize what we have left, if anything. I feel like that will just make it easier for him to process his hurt and get over me because there is no interaction. Why do I have to make all these hard decisions? <P>With HIM, I really don't think that full fledged Tough Love Approach will work. I do act tough and loving. But I just can't seem to stop sleeping with him. I realize this will have no effect as to whether he comes back or not, or sleeps with someone else or not, but it feels good to be connected for that time. <P>Most of the time, I can deal with it without getting emotionally upset the next day. Sometimes it is a little harder. But I am learning to love myself and make some positive changes in my life that eventually will get me through this ordeal. One of the hardest is to learn not to NEED him. I want to learn to just love and want him, but to NOT NEED him. I think if I can master this, I will be just fine. It is just hard starting out. Maybe someday I will seem like an attractive enough package to him that he will want to come home, if not I will be for someone else someday when I am ready for that. <P>I think I am going to talk to Dr. Harley in depth so I can decide what to do about still sleeping with him. I am getting too many different advices to make a choice. It is very pleasant when it happens. As a matter of fact last night he told me what he misses the most is scrooching up to me to go to sleep, not sex. So we slept all snuggled up last night and I slept so much better, and so did he. <P>I don't know if that will ever happen again, but in some ways I hope it does. I realize this is going to be a very long road, but I'm one of the Jack Rabbit drivers who needs to learn how to slow down. <P>He has basically said he is done with hardly any chance of returning, but I refuse to give up on him until he files for divorce. I think if I learn how to be independent, that will make me more attractive to him. So I am trying really hard to learn to be alone. I am still doing counseling once a week and still remain with God ever since he has found me in this mess. I will never lose that again. This healing the hurt is a much longer process than I thought it would be.<P>Sorry so long this time.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Laura W. (edited June 07, 1999).]