I've been following LauraW and her situation. I like your advice and you sound like you've been where I'm going. I've read Love Must Be Tough and am trying to follow it. Just today, I wrote my husband (separated for 4 mo) the letter stating that I love him, I want him but I don't need him for my life to go on. <P>My question: To show my independence (we were/are married for 29 years so independence is tough)I asked him not to mow the yard or things like that anymore. I need to be independent and wanted to BE INDEPENDENT. I think I stated this with more tact than I'm saying here. My question is that our situation is strange. He lives in a house - pro gratis - that belongs to a relative. He has a dog that he picks up every night to spend the night with him and then brings him back to our house to spend the day with my dog (we have a pet door). Should I stop that? The dog was one of my major complaints - the dog has no manners (he literally ate our two sofas and is the reason h won't leave him where he's staying). I have always felt that h love the dog more than me. The other thing is that h has a small bookkeeping service on the side. I have always entered the monthly checks into our computer for him. Now he comes to the house to set up the check stubs for entering and I'm thinking that he needs to take the computer to "his house" to do the work himself. That was another of my love busters from him was that I felt he stayed as long as he did so I could be his secretary. <BR>Now the down side. Is this too much of a Love Buster? Too cold? His complain about me was that I was so cold and unfeeling. I feel like we need to sever all needs from each other, to be totally independent. On the other hand, I would never see him then or have the need for any contact. Our children are grown and married. <P>One of our major problems right now, and obviously before is communication. When he talks to me it is with this face of stone - showing no emotion - no smile when he comes in to say hi in the morning (with the dog).<P>Ours is a really complicated situation. We are tied together with a lot of financial obligations. Neither of us have filed (our state requires 18 months of separation before a no-fault D) so strangely both our checks still get deposited into our joint account and I still pay all the bills. The house is still technically half his (does he have a right to keep the dog there?) His mother says I should keep the dog full time "so he can stew all by himself over there." (His mother doesn't know about the OW so it kills me when she cries that she doesn't understand what has happened to her son.)<P>The last thing is that I've come to realize that I don't respect my h anymore. I'm doubting now that unless HE changes (it's always been me that needed to change) I don't know if I can go down that road again. He is a very depressed and negative man. Hard to be around but he doesn't see it.<P>A lot of info I know but I want to know what my next step should be in the tough love line.<P>Thanks, I hope you see this.<P><p>[This message has been edited by bulltina (edited June 07, 1999).]

bulltina,<P>i'm not sure how much help i can be to you, but i can tell you what i have learned from my situation...<P>my H and i do have divorce papers filed. sometimes i wish they weren't, but they are. we can't change the past, right? anyway, even if those papers weren't hanging over our heads, i still would have wanted our finances to be separated, that i take care of me and he takes care of himself. when my H decided not to come back home when we talked about reconciliation and i asked him to come back to "us", we separated most everything... it may have been easier in our situation than yours. but we did own a house together and have an auto loan together, etc.... it has all been worked out for the most part.<P>some situational questions: when he moved out, who decided that he would go? how did you two decide to separate? was it the affair that got your marriage to this state? if so, i would suggest reading dr. harley's book about surviving an affair. it talks about two phases: the first being sort of an "all-caring" mode and the second being a "total-separation" mode. the second phase is best used when a person starts to feel resentment and anger with her spouse rather than love.... that may be where you are. i think you should take a look at the book.<P>stating your feelings (in a calm, polite manner) is not a love buster. i stress, though, the "calm, polite" section. if you would prefer his dog not being in the house during the day, maybe there is some other arrangement that can be made. if you would prefer not to continue entering checks for your H's business, explain your feelings and carefully pack the computer and ask him to take it along with him the next time he comes. try to explain to him that you find it too difficult to continue to do these things while he is away -- it reminds you to much of how things 'used to be'.<P>quote from your post: "On the other hand, I would never see him then or have the need for any contact." do you want contact with your H because you truly love each other or because he needs you to watch his dog, etc? <P>i am really sorry, bulltina. i am having a hard time (in reading and re-reading your post) figuring out how you really feel about your situation. do you love this man and want to remain with him for the rest of your lives? do you fear being without him or no longer being married? it sounds like you are struggling with these questions, too. maybe you need a better-defined separation to work through those thoughts and questions. <P>just my thoughts.... i'll keep you in my prayers and i hope for the best for you. sorry if i was not a lot of help.... hollyann may be able to add more to the discussion. she has successfully been through the whole thing. i am still "in practice."<P>god bless, bulltina....

sorry, server problems....<p>[This message has been edited by Mrs. Retep (edited June 08, 1999).]

sorry, server problems....<p>[This message has been edited by Mrs. Retep (edited June 08, 1999).]

sorry, server problems....<p>[This message has been edited by Mrs. Retep (edited June 08, 1999).]

sorry, server problems....<p>[This message has been edited by Mrs. Retep (edited June 08, 1999).]

sorry, server problems...<p>[This message has been edited by Mrs. Retep (edited June 08, 1999).]

sorry, server problems...<p>[This message has been edited by Mrs. Retep (edited June 08, 1999).]

\<p>[This message has been edited by HollyAnn (edited July 07, 1999).]

Thank you Mrs. Retep & Holly for your replies. Yes, I guess I am still confused about what I feel and want at this point. I am still working through all the emotions - and I've really had them. I'm embarrassed to say that when he walked out the door (which I never thought he would do) I had 3 bad anxiety attacks - one in front of him.<P>Maybe I should fill you in on some history. We have been seeing a couselor for the past 2 months and last visit the counselor said it sounded like we were goods parents but forgot to nurish our spousal relationship along the way. That is probably it in a nutshell. We have only taken one trip by ourselves in the 29 years of marriage. Our conversations were always about our children (as they still are) or finances and not "to" each other. Two years ago (I just found out) my H had a brief affair w/his sec./best friend. He had about that time told me "Things needed to change [between us]" I <BR>asked him what things, he said things. And left it at that. I asked him if he wanted to go to a counselor. NO. When he left it was my ultimatum. I told him either he go to a doctor (I believe he is clinically depressed), go to a counselor, or just leave. His immediate response was that it would be better if he just leave. He has since told me that if he had stayed he felt he would have had a fatal heart attack his stress was so bad. Let me insert here that over the last few years I had asked him at least twice if he wanted to go to a counselor. He said no - which led me to believe that things weren't as bad as I thought they were. Obviously our biggest problem was (and still is) communication. He is a bitter man, miserable in his job and does nothing but complain about it. That was his main complaint to our counselor was that I didn't listen. I cannot listen to his griping and bitterness anymore. I learned to shut him off when he talked about it and believe me that was about all he talked about - even to our counselor. I didn't realize, however, that I was obvious. I really wasn't aware that I was doing it. Therefore he would talk to OW. Things progressed as I now know is a predictable pattern and they had relations a couple of times. I am surprised to realize that that does not bother me so much (maybe because I didn't fulfill that need myself?) as that he refused to talk to me about what was bothering him but told OW ALLLLLL about us.<BR>Because I am still emotional when I talk to him about us, I have written notes when I needed to discuss something too painful. ie, I wrote him the letter about letting him go and asking him not to "take care of me". Funny thing was that I left it on the table for him to see when he dropped off the dog yesterday. He read it and mumbled something about he still wanted to get a few things fixed around here then sat down at the kitchen table while I ate breakfast. He has never done that. In fact I don't eat there either. I eat a bowl of cereal in the bathroom while I get myself ready for work.<P>In answer to Mrs. Retep's question about whether I want to remain married to him because I love him or if I just don't want to be alone. I don't know. I know that I deeply loved him when we were first married. I don't know now if I want to get back together with him the way he is now - bitter and miserable. That attitude rubbed off and I didn't realize how dark our house was. I do live in a small town. There is no one here that I would ever want to see. But then I feel marriage is for life. <P>HollyAnn. I don't know if I can distinguish the difference between self-respect and showing him how tough I am. To be honest, the only reason for me to be tough was to see if I could relieve pressure so he wouldn't be so blind and stubborn and at least try to work at reconciliation. The only reason he's going to the counselor is for me. The counselor asked him to come so he could get his perspective of what went wrong (counselor's way of getting him to come in since H was adamant about no reconciliation).<P>I am angry that he quit without giving us a chance. I told him when he got sick and no over-the-counter drug helped him he went to the dr. So why not this? He "Just felt that we should have been able to work it out ourselves". How? He won't talk to me about what he feels is wrong. By the way, it was me that had to change. I realize I have problems but so does he! I don't know if we can work things out but I don't want to slam any doors or burn any bridges.<P>I know I've rambled. Sorry and thank you for your help.

OK. I've read Laura W and I wish I was as confident as she is. I am still confused about what I really want. Am I just afraid of being alone? Do I really want my H back? I feel the longer we go on like this the more my love for him is slipping away. I'm also afraid of doing the wrong thing because I really think he is depressed and I am afraid to push him over the edge. If he thinks I'll no longer be there for him, if we do our separate ways, what will it do to him. He says OW is mad at him for not trying to work things out w/me and that she is dating someone else (she is a widow and 5 yrs older than he is). I don't want him to be alone. I know, he's doing it to himself. I need to stop feeling responsible for him don't I? I don't think there's any solution to this mess!

Hello, it's me. You say you wish you could be a confident as me. HA !!! I am far from confident. If you read my last post for today, I may have pushed my husband out of my life forever. I am also scared of being alone. I love my husband with all my heart, but have no way to convince him that I would never hurt him again. So you're not alone here. <P>I really felt at first that I could emotionally handle still sleeping with him and him not living there. I was wrong. I makes me too attached to him. My eyes look horrible today. I know in my brain that I will get stronger, but my heartache seems to overrule that feeling a lot of times. <P>By the way, you inspired me to tell my husband to quit mowing MY yard. Thanks !<BR>Just read my last post (June 10). This was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. But I had to show some self-respect. Hang in there. It hasn't even been a month for me and things are a tiny bit easier already. God bless.<P>Laura

Laura W: Thank you for your note. I know my problem is that I don't know what I want. My situation is a husband who is miserable with his life in ALL ASPECTS. I now realize that he was dragging me down to. What could I do to help him? I've tried for years but to no avail. I got to the point that I turned him off when he started griping. I couldn't listen to him any longer. I know that I didn't meet his needs. It was impossible for me to respect him - I still don't. What do I do? I'm not sure I want him back in this state. He doesn't see himself with a problem (of course). Everyone else does from our counselor to our pastor to friends and co-workers. I've told him he needs help but he thinks it's me. I get no positive responses from him so that's no problem with me like it is with you. I get not so much as a smile from him at any time. I can see that it is all he can do to argue with me about the time of day. He is so angry. I know in my mind that I need to let him go for my sanity but my heart still wants to protect him. I'm desperately praying and soul searching to take the final jump. <P>Here's a question: What do I do or say when he starts his "pity party" - the poor me stuff? It doesn't matter what it is - could be that he doesn't eat much anymore (I responded with I hope you're taking your vitamins) to I'll have to work all holidays and lots of weekends with this new job (not thank God that I'm out of that bad situation and I have new opportunities), etc. What can I say that doesn't sound cold and unfeeling (this was his complaint about me in the first place) but I don't want to feed his pity.

\<p>[This message has been edited by HollyAnn (edited July 07, 1999).]

Thanks HollyAnn! Things have changed a little. He is switching jobs. He will no longer be working for the man that has caused him so much grief (what will he complain about now?). We went to our scheduled counseling Thurs night (during the ride he started negatives about his new job - EEEEE!). I did not think he would be going as he told me 2X during the day that he had a lot to do but he still was ready to go when I went by his house. I talked to the counselor briefly before he came in & told the C that I had 'let him go' and I had come to some realizations. Number One was that I had stopped listening to him because he was always so bitter and negative that he was bringing me down w/his broken record. He had me ask H for his forgiveness for shutting him down. He did. But as we were discussing this, I noticed he was sitting with his hands laced over his knee and that he knuckles were white. I think we were hitting home. He said he didn't realize he was always so negative. He did not ask my forgiveness for being so bitter and negative even w/C asking him if there was something he needed to ask my forgiveness for. So he doesn't see it as being a bad thing. He tried to joke which I took it as he was not comfortable. On the way home, he actually said something positive and hopeful about his new job! I believe it was the first positive thing out of his mouth (except when he talks about our grandchildren) that I have heard in literally years! <P>HollyAnn, I have prayed so much & talked to so many people and read everything I could get my hands on. Thurs evening on the way home I had, the only way I can describe it, a religous experience. I finally felt calm, happy w/my world, not mad at my H, and felt loved (haven't felt loved for years). I feel a release from my misery. I know that my prayers for peace & acceptance have been answered. As for talking to him about him being depressed, I have already tried several times, even got the OW to talk to him about it. He doesn't agree. I pray for peace for him and that he will find relief from his unhappiness. Maybe this new position will help his stress so he can think again. My instructions from our C is for me not to pressure him. Since he told me from the very beginning and again not 2 wks ago that he has no intention of reconciling w/me, I think he would feel I was pressuring him again. What do you think?<P>As for me, I KNOW that I'll be ok. I know it will not be easy but it's ok. If, in time, he relaxes enough to see we could be good together again, that would be great. But if he cannot bring himself to 'risk it' again and go ahead and file, I'll be ok. Sad but ok.

\<p>[This message has been edited by HollyAnn (edited July 07, 1999).]

Question to anyone: I've just re-read Negotiating in the Three Stages of Marriage. I wonder if anyone has any experience in leading their spouse back through Withdrawal to Intimacy? Any success? Any hope?

HollyAnn: I've been reading jimbo's site under negotiation too. When I asked if any had success story I should have been more specific. I meant when the spouse had already moved out. I may have made a mistake too. I am trying to follow the Tough Love suggestion. As I said earlier I asked him to let me mow my yard and let me learn to be independent. Well I also moved the remainder of his clothes out of our closet into a spare closet as well as his drawers and bureau top. He really did have a lot of his things still at our house as if he was just 'away'. Now I'm in a quandry of explaining just that to him - that it seemed as if he was gone temporarily and since he is so adamant on permanency..... but if I bring it up will he think I'm still controlling or holding out hope? I wanted to say that it is just stuff and easy to move back to see it everyday was making it hard to move on. I'm still at the point that I'm afraid to say anything to him about our relationship. ???? Oh well, ha, what relationship!<BR>

Update: We went to another counseling session. The last 2 were tough on him. I really feel for him. He is a christian and he knows that what he's doing is wrong. He actually said that to the counselor. He surprised me by being this candid with him. He also said that he has prayed about this and he is not hearing any answers. This is the second time he has said this. The C gave him several Bible passages to read. I know that h is feeling better - not as stressed as he was so the separation has been good in that sense. I doubt if he could have gotten control of himself if he stayed. And if he had stayed I doubt I would have searched out this website and learned so much. God works in mysterious ways....<P>On the way home he actually talked a little. I asked him how he felt about what was discussed. He was uncomfortable. But he said he also had been thinking about what the C said last week about our relationship. That we put so much into our kids that we forgot to nurture our relationship and when they were gone we had nothing. And what would that say to our kids. Also what would it say to them that we (he) give up on our marriage without a battle. H said that has really bothered him. Then in the same conversation he said he still wants a divorce. <P>I think there IS hope. He just won't allow himself to see the possibility. I am also worried that he's getting too much pressure from other sources and that is making him dig his heels in further.<P>What do you think?

\<p>[This message has been edited by HollyAnn (edited July 07, 1999).]