My husband and I have had communication problems for a very long time. He is also a very controlling person and a verbal abuser. There have also been some times that he has even been somewhat physical with me, such as pushing, kicking, grabbing my arms and holding me down, pulling my hair, etc... (He denies all of this or justifies it by saying he was playing). I was able to convince him to go to counseling a few times but it was just few times and it didn't help anything. Now, he refuses to go. He even refuses to read anything like marriage help books or articles from this site. Anytime I say anything about what I read that can help, he gets very defensive and says that he is not going to listen to anything and will not seek any type of counseling ever! I asked him if counseling was the only thing that can save our marriage, would he go and he says No! He also refuses to tell me why he doesn't want to go to counseling or read anything that can help. He cannot give me an answer and he continues to tell me that he just will never do that. I have a feeling that he probably is afraid that a counselor will tell him that there are certain behaviors that he exhibits that are harmful to our marriage and that he has to change certain things. He is a very selfish man and I was weak when we were first married and gave into him and allowed him to do what he wanted. Now, he has taken such advantage of that, that he seems unstoppable. He refuses to see that he has an anger problem and blames it on me for making him angry and pushing his buttons. He also has a difficult time compromising and I believe that he just doesn't know what compromise is based upon something he said that he was compromising on, which was not a compromise on his part at all. It was him doing what he wanted and me having to deal with it no matter how much it hurt and bothered me. To me, that is not a compromise. I'm willing to give a little or as much as I fairly can, but he won't budge. He constantly says that we don't have to compromise on everything in our marriage and that I need to learn to just deal with certain things since that's just the way they are going to be. I agree we may not be able to compromise on everything, but that are many things that we can and should compromise on, but he refuses to comrpomise on anything that will make him not have something 100% his way. When I use some techniques that my counselor had offered me, such as telling my husband how something he said or did made me "feel," he says to me that he doesn't care how I feel and that he can't help how I feel and that I need to just deal with it on my own. He is so stubborn and defensive that I cannot even talk to him, unless it just generic daily things. I cannot open up to him or share my problems with him without him saying he doesn't care and that it is my problem. Is there any other reason why he may be refusing to seek counseling? Is there anything I can do so I don't have to walk on eggshells or live my life inside of myself? To me, this doesn't feel like a relationship. Any advice is appreciated.

Other people here know a lot more about this topic than I do. I'm not sure how they all missed you the first time around, but here's giving them another chance.

Your H's issues are not ones I know a lot about...but, you might find this thread from the Emotional Needs forum interesting...<BR>I think it has some links you might wisj to check out.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/000965.html" TARGET=_blank>www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/000965.html</A>

This is a test.

Dear cdlinaz:<BR>I have been trying to respond to your post but have been having trouble submitting. That was my test message. Now that I know things are working, I will try to give you some encouragement and advice.<P>I have been in a similar situation. I have been married for almost 20 years now. My husband has also been verbally abusive, is very controlling and has anger problems. We have consistently had communication problems also. I know what you mean about walking on egg shells and having to live your life within yourself. <P>First of all, I would like to say that my husband has not ever been physically abusive, so I cannot relate there, other than to say that you need to make sure that you are safe and remove yourself from the situation if you are not safe. Your safety is very important!<P>I hope I can offer you some insight in your situation. I am glad to read that you are seeing a counselor. It is too bad your hubby is so stubborn about seeing one also. You are probably correct in your guess of why he won't go to see a counselor. But there's no way to 'make' him do anything he doesn't want to do. So don't worry so much about that right now. Use this opportunity to get yourself healthy and strong. I can tell you that sometimes talking with that objective person can help you to sort through the mess and make some sense of things. Counseling really helped me to begin to focus on how to change myself and not worry so much about how to change him. And I found that, in working on changing myself, it was like a ripple effect in the water. Whether he realizes it or not, he begins to change too. Focusing on myself also helped me to take some responsibility for the position I 'allowed' myself to be in and the behavior I tolerated. I began to approach things differently, react differently, etc., and this makes a big difference. This is really half the battle -realizing the role you play in the situation and changing that. And once you begin to get healthy and make those changes, I found that results begin to show quicker than you might think.<P>My husband has finally agreed to see a counselor with me. But I'm finding it is much easier to focus on the baggage of one person in the session than the baggage of 2 people! Use this time to your advantage!!! What a good gift to give yourself.<P>The other thing I did was I read the book Boundaries in Marriage by Cloud/Townsend. It is an excellent book that helps to teach you to set boundaries for yourself. Boundaries define how you allow yourself to be treated and what you will and will not tolerate and setting consequences. It may be the case that your hubby isn't experiencing any consequences. Consequences can really wake someone up. This is not necessarily 'leaving' your husband. There are many steps you can and should take before you get to that point.<BR>The techniques in the book make alot of sense and are an excellent skill and tool to use and know and are useful outside the marriage relationship. I would highly recommend reading it.<P>I know what you mean about not being able to talk to your hubby unless its generic things and that he is defensive also. For the time being, it may be wise to realize that you just can't talk and share with him because he is insensitive or inconsiderate of your feelings (or whatever). I have come to learn this and to stop throwing my "pearls" before swine. I keep some things to myself and I share those, not with him, but others that can respect my thoughts, feelings, opinions, etc., and not trample my pearls. Don't subject yourself to that. Those are YOUR pearls, not his. And furthermore, make him EARN the PRIVILEGE of hearing those intimacies from you. He is not entitled to hear those if he cannot respect you and who you are.<P>If I can ask you, do you want to hold this marriage together? Are there kids involved? What are the assets of this relationship and what are his good assets?<BR>Do you work outside the home? I would be glad to converse with you further. I would love to offer any advise or just a listening ear if you need it. I'll check the page several times a week for a response to this. Let me know if this was helpful or if I missed the mark. Good luck.

Thank you very much for responding to my post. I really appreciate your support. I will go to the bookstore and find that book. I have read some books and have learned a bit about things; however, some of the tactics that they offer just don't work when dealing with my husband. I would appreciate hearing more from you since you sound so caring and friendly and you've been in this situation. I don't get much time to write things since I am usually at work and at home I just don't have the time to get on line unless it is at night and no one is home. That seems like the only time I have absolute privacy. I will check back at this post often also. I understand what you are saying about changing how I react to certain things and I have tried that at times, but then he gets more defensive and then I fall back into the same situation and same reaction habits. How can I not react those situations? P.S. There are no children involved.

Just read your post. Can you give me an example of what is making him more defensive and how you attempt to react differently but then fall back into old patterns?

For example, when I bring up a subject that we need to discuss I bring it up carefully and without blame. I tell him how I feel about something and he immediately gets defensive and says that he doesn't care how I feel and he's not going to change how it is (the issue). If I am trying to discuss something and reach a compromise or something and that means that he can't have it his way completely, he gets very defensive. It's like he's acting like a bratty child having a temper tantrum until he gets his way. I try not to explode back with any defensive comments and I continue to be sweet and try to reason with him. He gets more defensive if I don't "shut up" as he puts it. I used to blow up in his face also and yell right back at him, but I've tried not to but he continues and then he starts saying anything and everything and brings up other things that I did wrong or is my fault, etc... I try to keep my composure but I end up getting defensive in the end. I am always aware of what I say and I try not to say anything that would be mean and hurtful, so I do have some control there, where my husband does not. Other times when I've changed my reactions are when we are fighting about something and he starts calling me names, blamming me, saying he wants a divorce, etc... (anything to hurt me) I try to remain calm and not fight back. I used to fight right back and defend myself on everything he said, but I keep as calm as I can and try to ask him "why" he thinks that it is my fault or "why" he thinks I'm a B----. He continues more and more until I lose control and start back with the defensive comments. It seems like the more I try to withhold the more he "gets in my face" and tries to make me react. I can only handle so much and our house is too small for me to go to another room because he follows me or I can still hear him yelling from the other room. I also can't really leave the house because a lot of time our arguments start late at night and I have to get to sleep and wake up for work early the next morning. One of the main problems we are facing right now is compromise. He will not compromise and I believe he doesn't even know what a compromise is. The reason I say this is because of something I tried to compromise with him and his solution in his mind was a compromise but it truly wasn't because he didn't "give up any concessions" and he basically said this is how it is, I want it my way and you need to deal with it and not make a big deal of it, but I will not bring it up. That was his way of compromising. I am expected to give up all and he's not giving up anything. Where's the compromise there? When I told him that that was not a compromise he insisted that it was a compromise. I am convinced that he has no idea what a compromise is. From what I know of him as a child (info. from him and his parents), he was a very difficult child who had a bad temper, especially when losing a game or something, and he basically got what he wanted and "controlled" his parents. I still see how they back down from him when he starts arguing with them and he usually gets what he wants from them in the end. I think that is why we are having such a difficult time because he eventually got his way with his parents after throwing a fit or being difficult. I am not about to allow him to act like a child and push me around. I am stronger than that. Even though I hate the fighting and arguing, I am not about to be pushed around. I am pushed sometimes because I eventually give in because I just don't have the energy to keep up the arguing or live in misery with him giving me a hateful attitude. No matter what I say, if he wants to do it, he will, even if it hurts my feelings or hurts our relationship. He truly doesn't see or refuses to see that many of his actions have damaged and are damaging our relationship. I know I can't change him, but I wish he would act a little more mature and do things to help our relationship, not hurt it. He is pushing me away from him and he thinks that I am pushing him away from me because I "have an attitude and I am moody." Well, who wouldn't when being treated like dirt all the time?

Just read your post. I am digesting the information and will try to respond shortly. Can you tell me what are his positive attributes in regard to his personslity etc. What is it that you like about him or the relationship? I would like to know a little more about his demeanor when you all are not the confrontational mode. P.S. What are your ages?

I've had some time to think about this some more. I'll go ahead and give you a response even though I haven't heard back from you yet on the previous message.<P>I really hope that you do get the Boundaries in Marriage book. There are lots of situations in there I think you will be able to relate to and learn how to handle your own situation a bit differently. There is even a chapter on Resolving Conflict with a Boundary Resistant Spouse. He doesn't have to participate in this in order for it to work for you.<P>First, you seem like you are very willing to meet halfway, compromise, work on your own growth, and generally do what it takes to make the relationship better. One of your major issues seems to be compromise. I had to read your post twice before responding here. And what I was hearing was that first of all, he seems to have an immaturity level that is unacceptable and that the issue of compromise seems to be an important one. I think you are probably correct in surmising that he may not know what compromise is. If he was a controlling/demanding child who got his way from mom and dad, compromise to him may be "his way". Also, I am wondering whether you are inadvertently repeating his mom's patterns and thereby getting the reactions he, as a child, gave her. If this is the case, you are going to have to learn a new role so that you begin to do things differently from what his parents did. This will disallow him from subconsciously putting you in the "mother" role and thereby playing the "tantrum throwing, spoiled child." Learn how to change your role. I think that this will involve allowing him to take responsibility for himself, his behavior, reactions, etc. You'll have to learn how to initiate this in your relationship. You are both adults and there are consequences to behavior. Allow him to experience those. Ultimately, you each are responsible for yourselves. No one else.<P>The verbal judo is so familiar to me. When you talk about the name calling, confusing the topic, blaming, etc. It hits home for <BR>me. I know this is hard to do, but your halfway there because you recognize what's going on. But during an argument/discussion, I almost think that confusing the issues by bringing up old ones, etc., is almost a form of manipulation of the conversation. YOU HAVE TO BEGIN TO RECOGNZE THIS WHEN THIS IS HAPPENING AND RESTRAIN YOURSELF FROM PLAYING INTO IT ANYMORE. I know this is hard to do, especially when things are said and emotions are high. But I have learned that falling into this trap will get you nowhere. And everytime a subject comes up, unless you learn to break the pattern, you will keep doing the same thing over and over. Stop it. Learn how to take some control of it by refusing do the "dance".<P>And as far as the name calling goes, don't allow yourself to be subjected to it any longer. Even if you separate yourself and can still hear him because your house is so small, make it clear that you will not discuss anything further until he curbs the name calling. This is part of setting some personal boundaries for yourself and allowing respect for yourself. <P>Acknowledging that he feels a certain way about things may also be another way to deal with that. For instance, you could say something like, I realize that you feel or think that way. But don't argue with it. Just acknowledge it.<P>Try not continually ask "why". Who cares why he thinks you are b****? Don't allow him the opportunity to justify that kind of stuff. Asking why ends up being hurtful to you and draws you into the arguement more. <P>One thing I would recommend is that since you feel unable to approach him about a topic without him getting defensive/angry, have you asked him how he would like you to approach him about a topic? He may not have an answer. I know mine didn't but yours <BR>might.<P>Some things to think about from the Boundaries book:<P>1 Responsibility tells us we are the ones who must work through our feelings and learn how to feel differently. Our attitudes - not those of our spouse - cause us to feel distressed and powerless. How we behave and react is part of the problem, and we have to change these patterns.<P>2 Typically, spouses are performing a dance they don't even talk about. But the dance perpetuates the problem.<P>3 We must become more deply concerned about our own issues than our spouses. We cannot overstate the importance of this idea.<P>I hope this helps. Hang in there. I'll continue to watch the site to respond. Get strong. Don't neglect yourself. You sound like a good gal. Write me - I want to know some good things about you and your hubby. Surely it's not all hopeless! Regina<P>

I had to think a little about what you asked me regarding my husband's positive attributes. With all that has been going on I think I've lost site of some. When we were first together he constantly made me laugh. He did this for years. He still makes me laugh on ocassions when he's not being sarcastic or rude. He can have a good sense of humor when he wants to. We also work well with each other when we are doing projects. What I mean is household projects, such as yard work, remodeling or fixing up things. We have an old home that needed much remodeling and we know what needs to be done, we both offer suggestions and we get it done. I guess he's lucky to have a wife that doesn't mind getting her hands dirty and doing physical labor. I was raised by a father who remodeled homes as a hobby and my brother and I had to always help him out. Even my mother would be there working right along with all of us. My father also owned a Christmas Tree farm and we helped plant, fertilize and trim 70 acres of trees over a period of 10 years or so. We knew what hard labor was and even though we complained as children, we did the work and were rewarded with nice pay to put in our savings account. I admit, I certainly learned a lot of things. I know how to build wall frames, paint houses, hook up electrical wires, etc.. My husband also enjoys remodeling our house and we've done some major work. We gutted our last home and remodeled the entire home in a few months. This house we changed a few structural things and remodeled and refaced the rest. I will admit that we get along very well during those times even though we are stressed with work. We enjoy it and the outcome. My husband is also very talented when it comes to building things. He never had an formal training, he just learned from watching and doing. He can do just about anything when it comes to remodeling a house. He also can build things with his hands like furniture. He made our kitchen table in old house and tiled the top with small ceramic tiles, he build an entertainment unit, he built outdoor lounge chairs, bathroom and kitchen cabinets. He does this from scratch and just from his mind. His mother and I think that he should go into furniture building since he does it well and he is truly happy and excited when he is doing that. I certainly see the joy and sense of personal accomplishment in him when he builds things. It's refreshing to see and I compliment his abilities often. I also like how he cares for his elderly grandparents. His father is an only child and he does not get along with his parents and my husband has always been close to his grandparents. So, when he moved away, he brought the grandparents with him. He drops almost everything to run to them in their times of need. He takes them places when they can't get there by the community van, he controls their bank accounts and write their checks since they can't see very well to write the check, he visits with them often and just goes out of his way sometimes. I enjoy seeing that he puts someone else before himself. It is a pleasant feeling. I do wish that he could also think of others, specifically me, sometimes before himself. I know he can do it, so he can't use that excuse. When he's in a good mood he can be a sweetheart and compliment me and tell me how much he loves me. He is not afraid to say the words: I love you. He says it every morning when I leave for work, almost every time when we get off the phone with each other (he does the same with his family too since they always say it), and he can be affectionate with me at times. He used to be very affectionate with me, which is what drew me to him. I am, by nature, a very affectionate person and I love touching and hugging and sitting close. He also enjoyed those things and we were perfect together. Over the past few years he's become either not as affectionate or sometimes non-affectionate and then says it's not him anymore. Another positive attribute, which is important to me, is how he interacts with children. Many of our friends have small children and he plays with them and seems so gentle and loving towards them, especially when they are infants. It shows me that he could be a good loving father, or at least I hope it means that. Also, when we go on vacations together, we enjoy ourselves and keep ourselves so busy with doing the tourist thing and we laugh and have fun and he asks me what I would like to do or offers suggestions and asks if I would like that. We seem to get along great and I really feel that he takes into consideration what I want. I don't really get this while we are at home so it really confuses me as to why there would be such a difference?! So, there are qualities that I like in my husband. He's not a bad guy. He does have his faults and yes, they are bad ones, but deep down inside I know he can be a great husband and a wonderful man if he just chose to stop his childish bad behaviors and just act appropriately and care! Oh yes, and our ages are 28 (29 on the 13th) for me and 27 for my husband.

What a coincidence. I can't believe how similar your husband and mine sound - and also you and I. We too have the same hobby, remodeling homes, etc., and I am also one of those wives that can frame a wall, hang drywall, tape, etc.! We gutted and remodeled an old home several years ago and another just recently. We, too, work together generally pretty well on these projects! He, also, has learned all he knows just from figuring out himself or asking some questions of others. He really does have a talent!<P>Your husband sounds like he does have some very good qualities. I find this particularly interesting that both our situations sound so similar. <P>Did you happen to read my post at 2:59? Did this help at all? Rather than add anything more at this point, I'd like to know your thoughts on that. I'll check back again soon for your response.<P>

Sorry, I meant my post 9-8-00 at 2:15.

I did read your reply and it was helpful. I am sorry I just don't have time to really respond to it right now. I will try to this weekend. Thank you for everything Regina!<BR>-Christina-

There is a boundaries thread on the Women's Bible study forum based on Townsend and Clouds' book.

I'm sure that you love your husband very much..but there was a question that was asked, and I don't think I saw an answer.<P>Why are you with someone who is abusing you?<P>Society seems to tell us that this is okay,as long as the person is "nice".<P>Look at the Disney films, and see what you get....<BR>BEAUTY AND THE BEAST (perfect example)<BR>He kidnaps her, locks her in the basement,is SO mean to her, yells at her, is very bossy and demanding to her...pretty cruel too.<BR>She only wants to please him, and fall in love.<BR>In the end, the are married and live happly ever after!! ?????<P>Something to think about.<BR>Best of luck to you <BR>CJ

Yikes! What an analogy! I never thought of it all that way before. Pretty scary stuff. <P>BTW, what should you do if your husband claims to want counseling (indiv. then joint) but never actually makes an appointment? How much should you press. It's been three months of run-around.

What is the web address of that site?

What is the web address for that forum?

Regina, Sorry I haven't had time to write lately. I've been busy at work and at home I haven't found the time to even turn on my computer. I re-read your post and have a response. I think you may be right that I might be reacting to things as his mother may have. I'm not quite sure but maybe that is why he acts childish when he doesn't get his way. The hard part is, how do I change that and what do I change it to? I feel that I am reacting the way that I would if it were anyone that acted that way towards me. I will get the boundaries book and hopefully it will give me some ideas of how to change that role. A few times in the past he has told me to stop acting like his mother when I am demanding respect or something like that. Maybe his mother demanded that same respect also and he sees my request as trying to be his mother. I don't feel that way though. I feel that I have the right to ask him not to speak a certain way with me and demand respect. How can I ask for certain things without him thinking that I am being his mother? Somethings I think that whatever I ask of him to "stop doing" or "modify" he gets defensive immediately and thinks that I am being picky like his mother. That is just not fair. How can I get my requests across without him thinking that way? Sometimes I feel at a loss with him. We are in a "win-lose" situation not a "win-win" situation. Just the other night I was trying to talk to him and ask him why he was acting a certain way with me and when he was paying attention to something else while I was trying to talk to him I asked for his attention. When he still didn't stop what he was doing and said that he can hear me I said that I wanted his undivided attention. Right there was the button that I must have pushed becasue he immediately got defensive and said that I was annoying him and that I was trying to start an argument. I didn't even get a chance to say anything before he jumped all over me like I was arguing with him. Later on when I said that I was sorry that he took what I was trying to say as annoying he said that I'm not his teacher and that I can't ask for his undivided attention. I told him that I was not being a teacher and that as his wife I can request for his undivided attention and that it has nothing to do with acting like a teacher. (Where did he get that response from? That's a new one for me). [I'm sure his teachers requested his attention because he has told me that he never paid attention in school and his mother told me that they had to put him on Ritalin (sp?) as a child because he couldn't pay attention and was disruptive]. He always jumps to these conclusions like we are going to have a fight even before anything is said and then we do have a fight becasue of his reluctance to talk or pay attention anymore. He shuts me out immediately and says that I am getting annoying, that I am trying to start a fight and to go away becaue he doesn't want to talk to me anymore. That gets me angry and I then tell him that I am not trying to start something, but he doesn't listen to me and continues to say "shut up" or "go away, I don't want to talk with you anymore." I am left feeling confused since I didn't even say anything yet but asked that he stop doing what he was doing to listen to me. Other times when I'm not asking him to pay attention but I'm trying to express how I feel about something and request for a change or even a compromise he gets the same way and shuts me out by blamming me for trying to start an argument. It makes me feel like he thinks that anything that I say that warrants some sort of change is an argument. And then I am the bad guy and I'm left feeling disappointed. He does this often. I can't even talk to him without him getting defensive immediately. He doesn't even give me a chance to talk to him before he blames me for trying to start something. Anytime I want to talk seriously about something, anything, he shuts me out before I can start or continue and he trys to avoid that conversation by getting angry and then telling me that I am trying to start something. Then he goes on to ignore me the rest of the evening and/or has an attitude like he's angry and I was the one who was wrong. It just seems to me like he cannot discuss things that he doesn't want to hear or deal with if it's not "positive" or "in his favor." I don't know if it's his immaturity level or just the fact that he refuses to change what he is already doing since he likes how things are when he gets to do what he wants to do. How can I talk to him about issues without him getting so defensive and/or shutting me out and avoiding the subject? There's so much missing in our relationship that was there once but not anymore. I want to talk to him about those things and see if we can work it out to get those things back in our relationship, but how do I do that?