Wanted to give you an update. Our family trip went OK. It was hard to keep that "All is fine" face in front of her family. But we all had a good time. I am beginniing to doubt the therapist. I think she is ignoring -- or not trying to determine if my wife wants to be married any longer. I have told her and my wife that I want this more than anything, but I still feel she is making any attempt to reach out. Our last session ended with a another shocker...my wife told the therapist that she did not want me "to reach out to her". I really feel I am part of an episode of the Twilight Zone...<BR>Regards....

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alone-in-CNY:<BR><B>Wanted to give you an update. Our family trip went OK. It was hard to keep that "All is fine" face in front of her family. But we all had a good time. I am beginniing to doubt the therapist. I think she is ignoring -- or not trying to determine if my wife wants to be married any longer. I have told her and my wife that I want this more than anything, but I still feel she is making any attempt to reach out. Our last session ended with a another shocker...my wife told the therapist that she did not want me "to reach out to her". I really feel I am part of an episode of the Twilight Zone...<BR>Regards....</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Alone,<BR>I am just curious about something here: you said the session ended with your wife's shocking comment. Didn't you ask why, or were you both told to end the session at that point and you'll take it up at the next one? <P>If that had been my husband's comment, I wouldn't have left that room until I had an answer from him, counselor or no! There has got to be some reason that she has not revealed to you that she feels this way--and that in itself is a problem. Why doesn't she feel open enough to be totally honest with you? <P>Right now, your wife has the best of all worlds. She is free to come and go and in the process, stomp on your feelings because you are so anxious and eager to win her back--and, she is free to be as closed off as a clam with no recriminations from you. What I'm saying is, it sounds to me like she wants to have her cake and to eat it, too, and to heck with how you feel. If she truly did NOT want to be in your marriage any more, she would be an adult and GO, or end it gracefully. Could it be she has some sort of secret 'security' going on of which you are not aware? <P>I'm sorry, but things are just not adding up here, Alone. I think down deep, you know that, too, but perhaps you are not ready to deal with it just yet.<P>Let me phrase this another way: my husband is a very articulate, attractive and classy guy. Women are very attracted to him and he has a very warm, easy-going and caring approach to nearly everyone. It's almost as if he is unaware of how appealing he is, and I think that only adds to his overall charm. Well, one of his martial arts students (female, married) developed a crush on him and let him know about it. Because we were going through some very rough times, he allowed himself to fantasize and thank God, did NOT step over that line. But, he came darn close. The good Lord stepped in and literally put things right in my hands (I didn't even have to snoop!)and revealed this situation to me. We talked it out and endured many sleepless nights and downright screaming matches--but, today, nearly one year later, he has come to his senses. He realized all by himself that he was very vulnerable and someone just stepped in and tried to use that to her advantage. <P>I've been Plan A'ing for these past 6 months or so, and it has worked for us. It was true that I did not meet many of his emotional needs--nor was he meeting many of mine. Things are vastly different now and we are on the true road to recovery. BUT..this would not have happened had I not found out the truth. He was too scared to tell me, it was as simple as that.<P>I pray that this is not your situation but I have to tell you, with each post of yours, things are not looking so good at all. Your marriage will not improve until your wife is honest with you, totally and completely. Hang in there...I have a feeling it will be soon. I hope so, anyway, for your peace of mind in the long run.<P>Good luck! Keep her talking to you....<BR>Hugs,<BR>Winny<BR>

I hear what you are saying. I guess I've let her control things too long. I am planning to ask the therapist the same issues you bring up. I need something to measure progress with -- but the main question is what does she want to do with US? It is a real tightrope, I do not want to push her into a decision she may not be ready for. If she chooses the separate ways it will change the atmosphere dramatically. Unfortunately, I can see it easily going "confrontational", because I am not go to roll over and play "dead". I know that is not generally a "good" thing and I will do my best to keep everything civil... But, I will go the extra 10 miles if the need arises to save it all. It is worth that and more...<BR>Thanks for all the comments and insights. They have helped me alot.<BR>Regards....

Wow! I have spent the whole morning reading your post and the replies in between my work. Alone, I cannot believe how much we are in the same predicament. My H and I are dancing to the same song. We, too, have been together nearly 18 years, half our lives (since I was 15) and married for 12 years. Our second home and 3 children later, my husband says he is not "in love" with my any more. It was just after our 10 yr anniversary. A month later (on Father's Day) he packed up and moved to an Apt. Our life was in complete chaos. My children were young and could not understand. Six weeks later he came back home and of course it was good for the moment. It has been 2 years now and right around our anniversary (twice already) he comes out with the same attitude. I don't understand it. I love him so much it is breaking my heart. I'm reading a book on how to be a "surrendered wife" by Laura Doyle and trying to relinquish my old ways, which, according to him are a problem. I'm trying to change. Either he doesn't see it or doesn't care. I can't tell. I'm trying to hang in there to talk to him and find out what it is that is bothering him. I try to explain that wounds take time to heal. His comment, how long? A lifetime? I don't think so. But he has to be willing to try to make it work with me. I think there is a dark cloud hovering over our relationship. It is a female work associate that he seems to calling all the time. I have questioned it but he says there is nothing going on. I believe him 90% but that 10% says don't be blind. I can't tell. I just believe that he is so vulnerable that she may take advantage of that. I don't trust her nor the 10% that reminds me he is HUMAN. <P>I truly believe that communication is the key to success. I am trying to get that through his head. I'm new to this web site and I have yet to show him the Emotional Needs QNR. I plan to discuss it with him in the near future. Our problem it that we never make the time for US. We get along fine at social events and with the kids. My family adores him and should we ever split up again. It will be disastrous. One thing I told him a month ago is that he needed to decide whether he wanted to work it out or split up. BUT if we split up he would not be leaving. Me and the kids would go to my moms, leaving him with all the bills and house. This seemed to set him back a bit. It would be completely different than before. He left me at the house and came to visit at his convenience, almost every day until I put my foot down. I suppose the thought of me being with my parents would not give him the freedom to do as he chose. I'm taking it one day at a time. I, too, am determine to make this marriage work. I feel in my hear we are meant for each other. Keep me posted as I find this post very informative.<P>I pray for our marriages.<P>God Bless,<BR>

>>I think there is a dark cloud hovering over our relationship. It is a female work associate that he seems to calling all the time. I have questioned it but he says there is nothing going on. I believe him 90% but that 10% says don't be blind. I can't tell. I just believe that he is so vulnerable that she may take advantage of that. I don't trust her nor the 10% that reminds me he is HUMAN.>><P>Hi, Determined,<BR>I felt compelled to answer your post, D. I'm glad your eyes are open, and you are keeping watch on things. If you read through a lot of the posts on this site, you'll learn a lot about these situations where spouses say "there is nothing going on." That's what my H said, too, but I never believed that. In my case, I accidentally found a letter from a woman who he insisted "nothing was going on" with that just rocked my world! It was clear that she had an intense crush on him, and he tried to claim ignorance of it. That didn't wash with me, either, because he changed so much towards me so quickly. Even though we are now in the Recovery phase (we darned near split up!), he STILL will not admit to an emotional affair, and I doubt he ever will. But, that's what was going on and once the truth came out, that's when real healing started. He at least did admit to a "friendship" with this woman, and I told him that it was wrong. No married person should have such a close 'friendship' with a person of the opposite sex..period. It is just one small step away from a full blown affair (called "PA" on this board, or "physical affair"), and he had to choose between HER friendship, or our marriage. He chose our marriage.<P>One thing I've learned through all this is that God has given us all a gift called intuition, and when those little warning bells ring, we had better pay attention. I wrote someplace else on this site something that my brother said to me a while back, when I first told him of my suspicions about my H and a 'possible' OW. He said, <BR>"You know him better than anyone else on earth. You know his every mood, nuance, gestures, wants, needs, and so much more. You know when something isn't right, and your intuition is letting you know this right now. Listen to it...it's there for a reason and coupled with the knowledge you already have of your mate, it is a powerful tool. Use it wisely, but USE it."<P>If I knew my H was calling some woman all the time, I would most definitely find out why! This is how bonds are formed, by conversations, especially those that are sought out and happen often. Dr. Harley says that most affairs start out by having emotional needs met by another person, and how better to get those across than conversations? <P>Our biggest problem is having to face the truth. In the BS case (betrayed spouse), it's the truth of knowing someone we love and trusted so completely vioated that trust. It hurts like hell and is about the most vile thing that can happen to someone. Just read the posts on this site and you'll see what I mean! In the WS case ('wandering spouse), they must face the truth of having violated someone's trust and faith and love--but while in the fog of infatuation, that's almost impossible for them to do.<P>Keep on reading and make sure you read all of Dr. Harley's articles on Infidelity, Plan A-Plan B, etc. I wish you success and want you to know that this site can be a lifesaver for you. It's helped me to stay sane, keep a level head on my shoulders, and ultimately, it helped to save my marriage.<P>God bless...<BR>Winny

Thanks for the info Winny. We had a very rough weekend. I expressed my feelings about this other woman my H is friends with and he said there is nothing going on. I asked him again why he calls her so much and he said its not so much. I asked him why he called her at all. He said they were just friends. I told him that obviously he enjoyed talking with her and that he should talk to me instead. I expressed how I did not approve of such communication and that it was interfering with my effort to make our marriage work. Also if he had some sort of need for me to meet how can I do that if I don't know what it is. I wanted to spend some time together with him and reminded him that we no longer communicated and that was a big problem. We also have some past issues that he has never forgiven me for. If he had forgiven me then they would be forgotten and he has not forgotten. It seems the beginning problem is that I left him with our one year old for approximately 20 hours a week to work part time as a Youth Minister at our church and did not want him to be part of it for my own reasons. At first he was very supportive of my decision, but later did not like it. I was committed for a year and stopped immediately. This really caused problems in my marriage and now it still haunts me. <P>It is very difficult for me to comprehend why my service for our Lord would turn against me and cause marriage problems when we are who He joined. Well, I put my marriage into His hands every day and I trust He will turn it around, eventually. <P>Thanks for your post and I will keep in touch. I could go on for hours about my problems but I need to work. Have a good day.<P>Determined1

Alone- I empathize with you. Over the past twenty two years of marriage, things have gone down hill. My wife says she doesn't feel for me as a wife should. There is no intimacy. We have chit chat but no real conversations. About 3 months ago, I susspected that my wife was having an EA with a man at her work. I don't know if it was physical but he was her workout partner at the gym and since has been let go for an unrelated reason. She is into bodybuilding and he was her partner. After I found out I asked her not to workout with him. Since he has left, I have suspicions that she talks to him on the phone almost every day. Before I realized the EA was going on, my wife just didn't respond to me. And now it is worse. I try not to bring up OM because as in Winny's case it doesn't help and the WS will only open up when ready. It is really hard especially when you want her to love you back. I try to do nice things for her like I always have. I bring her coffee in the morning and fix her lunch. She has a job with odd hours so I do what I can around the house. I think now after listening to Winny's great advice that I may be pushing too much. I write her small notes in her lunch and send e-mails. That may be too much for now and it might be overburdening her. Anyway alone, your post is very similar to mine. Good luck to you

Thanks for the responses. We have our next appointment tonite. I am supposed to write down things that make me angry in our marriage. It is a tough list to come up with because I don't stay angry...I tend to move on very quickly. One of the things I plan on saying is my frustration with some of the sessions. I feel that we have gotten sidetracked on less important issues. When my wife made statements such as "she didn't want me reaching out to her", "if the kids weren't here I would probably be gone.." and "she doesn't know why..." I believe they should be the areas we should be concentrating on. Especially, since she has stated that she knows that this whole situation is being caused by her. In 2.5 weeks, we will reach our 18th anniversary and I never dreamed I would be facing this. She has emotionally and physically isolated me from her (our) life the past 3 months. Most of the posts in this thread have brought me a measure of hope and helped me get this far. I do not want to "push" her into a decision she is not ready to make. But, I do believe I deserve something that lets me know she trying to let me back into her life.<BR>Regards....

Alone,<BR>I am praying for you both that your session is productive tonight. If it's any consolation, I really do know just how you feel. I was in the same spot last summer (which, coincidentally happens to be our anniversary, too, in August)and I know it is sheer emotional turmoil and hell. Out of all the people in the world, my husband was the last one I'd ever dream would hurt me so badly, but the fact is that he did hurt me by shutting me out so completely. <P>All I can tell you is to pray, Alone. Pray for strength to get you through this awful time; pray for patience to keep your cool, and most of all pray for inner peace. If you ask God to reveal the truth to you, He will. But remember this: He will do this in His time, not yours. Only the Lord can see the bigger picture, Alone, and this is where real faith comes in. It takes an enormous amount of faith to emotionally hang in there, and to know that eventually, all will be revealed to you. Now, I am not a particularly 'religious' person, but I do believe in God and have had many personal experiences with Him. Last year, when I felt I could not bear my H's cold and downright cruel treatment of me anymore, I turned to prayer and the first thing that happened was I quieted down. I stopped asking my H 'what's wrong?', and just sat quietly by, watching and observing. One day, while looking for a piece of jewelry of mine, I stumbled upon something that rocked my world: it was a very personal letter from some woman to my H, and suddenly, his behavior made perfect sense. However, this event did not happen until about three months had passed since his change towards me. <P>Looking back now, I can see how and why God allowed me to find that letter at precisely that time. It was exactly two days before we were going to spend the holiday with this woman and her husband--it was enough time to confront my H and get some REAL dialogue going with him. <P>Yes, you are right: you do deserve some concrete explanation from your W, and to find out if she wants you in her life or not. The one thing you cannot do is to demand it, Alone. I know--I tried that, too, and it was futile. She will not open up to you until she is ready. It's how you act now that will either help make her ready or not. If all else fails, just pray as hard as you've ever prayed and trust that God will help you. <P>Good luck, and please keep us updated!<BR>Hugs and prayers,<BR>Winny<P><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited July 10, 2001).]

Dear Alone,<P>I am sorry for all the pain you are going through.<P>Have you read all the material here on the Harley's site? Are you implementing a good Plan A? If your wife won't fill out the Emotional Needs questionnaire herself, Dr. Harley says that you should fill it out for her as best as you can. Figure out those emotional needs (ENs) that you are not meeting and work on them.<P>It sounds like your wife is in the Withdrawal stage where her "Taker" is the only one operating. This makes it hard to do things that please her, but try whatever you can to deposit love units in her love bank.<P>I would say don't pressure her now for a committment to the marriage or even to trying. Right now it might just have to be enough that she hasn't packed up and moved out. While she is still there you have an opportunity to try and figure this out and win her back.<P>It really isn't fair that you have to do all the work, but it is often the case that the spouse who doesn't want to lose the marriage is the one who has to initiate the changes. In my case I had to do most of the work for 7 months until my husband came out of the fog of his affair. (I usually hang out over on the pregnancy/child board for those whose husbands have had an affiar and fathered a child by that affair [my situation] or a wife who has had an affair and gotten pregnant by her lover.) None of it was fair, not the affair, not the child, not the fact that I had to do much of the work, but it has all been *worth* it as we have come back to a renewed marriage and a profound sense of togetherness in facing adversity.<P>I wish you peace,<BR>MJ

Alone-in-CNY,<BR>I couldn't sympathize with/for you more. My relationship sounds very similar to yours. On <BR>Tuesday, my wife and I enter into our first Marriage Counseling session and from reading your posts' <BR>I already feel like I've lost her.<BR> <BR>My wife and I have only been together for seven years and apparently my intimacy and affection over those years has been other than substantial. She had conversed with many other people on the issue prior to speaking directly on the subject with me. Hine Sight, I now have realized all the <BR>affection I lacked to share. <P>A bit of background on us: We're a young couple, 28, 26 very attractive and often receive compliments on how affectionate and compatible we are in public. We just (1yr) bought a new <BR>house which took every ounce of *ambition* to complete(we had it built). We have some loving animals, it took the *both* of us to build their personalities. We(she) also race standardbred horses, I'm employed through the military. Now concerning the horse business...As of recently (not directly <BR>to me) my wife expressed how most of our *little things* have become quite routine and how a certain someone at the Barn just may fulfill those certain *little things.* Prior to my knowledge of this I asked her if she felt lust,love, or affection for anyone else, to which of course she said denied. Until last week when I intercepted an e-mail(she asked me to check her mail from work). In this e-mail it expressed concern from a mutual friend steering my wife to stand clear of this "Horse boy." <P>Now, the only time she has shed a tear in my presence during this crisis was when I confronted her with the horse boy e-mail, she insists nothing is going on between them. Let me ask a question, how would you guys feel in these situations??<BR>1. (said to me) You don't have to come to the barn everyday, that is my time to think and be alone...I respect her privacy.<BR>2. (again said to me by my wife's friend) Your wife feels very vulnerable.....<BR>3. Horse boy's actions when I'm there...very distant from me and often very angry at the horses.<BR>4. (expressed to me) She said how she found a certain look(doo rag, baggy running pants, the athletic look) to be appealing....hmmm this is just how horse boy dresses. (I'm very athletic though do not dress in this fashion)<P>I'm not a loose cannon, if I were he and I would've had a word or two and at this point in my life I'm willing to do anything to keep my wife and I together.<P>I don't know if I'm attempting to replace myself with someone else as blame for how we are feeling, or if he may actually be part of our problem. When she broke this news to me, I immediately closed up to her....This may be the last time hold her this way....though recently I took the advice of someone on this board and backed off quite a bit(except while we sleep). There is nothing quite like your loves warm body, soft skin and scent to help drift you off...<P>Thank you all in advance for any insight, and I apologize for being short on the post. Though I will elaborate if anyone wishes..<P>Goin for broke!<BR>

I certainly can empathize with all of you in this type of arrangement. I really wish it was just a bad dream or could be medically explained etc. We had a session (our 5th) last Tuesday. Sometimes, I am so frustrated in those mtgs. because I don't think the therapist hears me. It is so strange --- everything else in our life is functioning normally. My wife just does not want anything to do with me in any intimate way. She claims she does not know why and the therapist has told me that this is probably true. It is just hard for me to accept it. The therapist tells me I need to be patient but somedays I don't think I can make it. It has been more than three months since I have had any physical contact of any kind. I can't imagine being with anyone else but I can't go on being hurt forever. I'm not one for corny metaphors but if you don't tend to your garden it will die from neglect. I can only go so far in this relationship -- she has to meet me somewhere. Some of the people posting here have had the heartbreak of finding out there is "someone else". I have looked at this possibility in my case and so far nothing even faintly suggesting that is the case for me. If it were, given what I have gone thru so far, my immediate thought would be to end it quickly. But everyone needs to evaluate that kind of decision on their own set of circumstances. <BR>Take care....

Dear GFB,<BR>It is obvious to me after reading your post that your W has a crush on this 'horse boy.' She told you to keep away from the place where she goes for recreation (the barn). She obviously talked to her friend and confided something to her, and her friend felt it was pretty urgent, so she alerted you (your W is 'vulnerable'). Suddenly, her personal taste in what's sexy or not changed--and it's NOT the way YOU dress. This is a clever way of saying that you are not sexy to her anymore--clothes are optional.<P>Now, ordinarily this would be just a simple infatuation/crush thing, but you also said the OM (May I please refer to him as the other man--OM-- because horse boy gives me a really odd mental picture!)has a change of attitude around you, and it isn't a good attitude. GFB, if you are thinking that these two have a little fling going, you are probably right-on. She has withdrawn from you and is pushing you out of one area of her life, she has talked about her feelings to someone else, and is telling you straight out that something else is appealing to her. The only thing missing is a photograph or video of the two of them interacting together! <P>What, exactly, do you mean by "little things"? Are you referring to casual conversation or out and out sex? If you asked her to explain in more detail, was she honest with you, do you think? What was her response, and what was yours? <P>Here is what I feel, GFB: sometimes, people do develop crushes and they can happen out of the blue, and for no good apparent reason. It's how we act and conduct ourselves that counts, and lots of times, people give in to the urge to try something new, or different, sometimes out of a sense of boredom or hidden frustration. It sounds like you both have a lot going for you, so why would she act upon a crush with someone new? That's something you have to ask her,GFB. Only the two of you know what your relationship is like and what may be lacking in it or not. I know that in my first marriage, I developed a crush on another man simply because my H was so neglectful of everything from our relationship to our home. After a while, it was like I was stuck with someone who was from another planet, and it was like we were just two roommates living under the same roof. He did not meet my emotional needs, so I wandered. Someone else was willing and ready to meet those needs, so I caved in to the urge to feel desired and appreciated again. <P>I hope that your counseling sessions are productive, and don't feel as if you've lost her for good. Be open with her, and ready to listen to what she has to say. It's when we close our minds out of anger or hurt to our spouses that we then risk losing them forever. She is clearly crying out that she is not happy right now with you--and you need to find out why. Remember this, both you and Alone: if your W's truly wanted to be rid of you, they would GO. No power on earth could hold them or prevent them from going, if that is what they truly wanted. Right now, both W's are confused and confusion is really a call for help in disguise. <P>Good luck, and please keep us updated on your progress!<P>Hugs,<BR>Winny<P>

Winny, <BR>Thank you for your input. Your critical thought masked that of mine. Currently I'm at work, so I'll have to respond again tomorrow. My work schedule make this even harder, I do a 24 hr shift(sleep for 8 hrs) and if I'm not busy..it feels like 24 hours!!! I have to say what you and your significant other went through was hell if it's anything like my situation. I don't think necessarily she finds me unattractive in a physical way, maybe at an intimate level(our little things). My wife believes she has bent up hostility towards our relationship which built over time. I don't understand why we would agree to do so much together if her feeling were not in tune with mine. I pray she hasn't been led to that water that flows through through the rock, for when it freezes it splits the rock in two...For some reason I don't think anything has happened between the two of them, and for who knows maybe I'm attempting to place someone else at fault??? <P>Due to my urgency, this board is my only other source of counsel. Counselors must not see the urgency in immediate sessions??? <P>I will keep everyone posted. <P>Thank You

HI, GFB,<BR>Thanks for your reply to my post. I can sense the pain you are in, and I know that right now you are feeling very confused and almost lost. I've been there, too, with my present husband over this past year. I never dreamed that he could even look at another woman let alone have some kind of relationship with her, but that is what happened.<P>One of the first clues was his sudden change in attitude towards me. It did NOT make any sense at all to me. It seemed to come from out of the blue, and it was funny, but all of the clues were right there for me to see. Only, I didn't see them at first. I don't think anyone really does, at first. Clues were: he became very withdrawn from me, argumentative over the simplest things, he found fault with everything I said or did, he became highly critical of me, he brought up things that were years and years old and didn't seem to remember them 'right', or as I remembered them. One of the biggest clues was that our sex life just wasn't anymore. No sex, no cuddling or touching--nada, nothing. It was as if he became not only a stranger to me, but an enemy. All the while, I was totally in the dark, had no idea what was really going on--until I found a very personal letter from the OW to him. Then, things started to make sense. I have never felt such emotional pain in all my life and actually had thoughts of suicide. But, I found this site instead, and read everything I could on it. I've been in Plan A for the past few months and am happy to tell you that it really does work.<P>I'm telling you all this because both you and Alone-in-CNY seem to be in similar straights right now. If you go to Dr. Harley's article on "Signs of a Cheating Spouse", you'll see your predicament might line up with some of (or many of) the things in that article. THAT is what really opened up my eyes, GFB. You must remember that spouses who cross the line hardly ever confess to their wrong-doing. It's almost an unwritten law someplace that they do not admit their affairs--and by the way, if you haven't read about Emotional Affairs (called EA's on this board), you really should make that a priority. In many ways, EA's are more damaging than PA's (physical affairs, where sex is involved) because they establish a bond between the new couple, and sometimes can go all the way to the two falling in love with each other. <P>From what you described in your first post, your W is throwing out all kinds of clues at you, right down to telling you in a round about way that she finds the OM attractive. Wow! Open your ears, as painful as it may be, and listen to what she is saying to you. Don't just hear her words, really LISTEN to her. You can expect to feel a lot of emotional pain, but you must get through that pain and to the root of the problem if you are ever going to win her back. <P>You said that for some reason you don't feel anything has happened. I think what you might mean is nothing happened physically yet, and you may be right. BUT, if you don't get and keep those lines of communication open with her right now, and be willing to accept the fact that someone else has captured her attention, the physical part happening is just a matter of time. God is giving you an opportunity to find out what's going on in her head and her heart, and just sitting by and waiting to see what happens is about the worst thing you can do. She needs to know how you feel and why, and she needs to know this right now, too. <P>Your statement that perhaps someone else could be at fault kind of confused me. Could you please explain what you meant? Like many of us with WS's ('wandering spouses'), you may not want to see what is under your very nose, and that's very normal. It's a method of self preservation, but blinding ourselves to the possibility that our spouse might wander (or has wandered)can be deadly to our relationship with him or her. Remember this old saw? "There are none so blind as they who will not see." There is a ton of truth in that, so be very cautious. <P>Just keep on coming to this wonderful site, GFB. READ, read and read some more--read all of Dr. H's articles and if you can, print them out to read at your own pace/time. I did, and believe me, this site literally saved my marriage. Start with his Basic Concepts, then move on to his writings on Infidelity. I'm urging you to do this because I know what the pain is like from a WS, and hate to think of you and Alone-in CNY going through it, too. <P>Keep on posting here, too. For many of us, this fine site is our ONLY means of procuring knowledge in repairing a marriage, and I think it should be required reading for all those who are contemplating marriage. It's really that good.<P>Good luck, hope to hear back from you real soon...<BR>Hugs,<BR>Winny<P>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited July 17, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited July 17, 2001).]

I hope this post finds everyone well, or the best they can be for the moment...<P>Well our first night of counseling was somewhat productive in the sense of the Counselor building a foundation. My wife spoke as I sulked and teared up. the infamous "what's wrong with your relationship" question was asked, my wife's response was "D, all of the above..." Our next session will be next Tuesday, together unlike "Alone" where he and his wife appeared separately.<P>Alone, has your wife expressed anything regarding your years together, i.e., your past emotions, affection, expression or the lack there of or they ways you may have handled your relationship or conflicts between the two of you?<P>Winny, I completely understand what you are saying concerning the OM, emotionally and physically. Though maybe I'm attempting to avoid that harsh reality, holding out and holding on, praying it's something else. What I meant by attempting to find someone else at fault, is my way of expressing denial. The OM is a good person and I hat to tarnish his working relationship with my wife(day late, <BR>dollar short) but at the same time when does it become "ok" to be a jealous husband? I spoke to my wife about that, she had no response. I think it would be down right *wrong* for a spouse not to feel jealous in my situation. <P>My emotional pain is tremendous to a point of being nauseating, I'm sure very similar to what you felt though without the suicide. Thanks for listening, sorry Alone if I'm stealing you thunder. You and I are sharing a moment of intimacy together as all humans should. Why couldn't we share these feelings continuously with our spouses for the past ?? years. We as men are just numb to such emotional expression until it seems to be too late. My wife and I still sleep in the same bed, though rarely touching( I do as much as possible now), it just makes me feel so incomplete not having her attention...<P>Take care bud, hang in there and as a great professor passed onto me once...The hardest thing to say in a relationship is "Lets talk," obviously you and I needed to express this to our wives much sooner but try it anyway... Buy a couple of mushy books and get some of that stomach churning crying out. It feels so good, just don't go beyond the though of being depressed into a state of manic depression. <BR>Thanks Winny!<BR>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goinforbroke:<BR>[B] The OM is a good person and I hat to tarnish his working relationship with my wife(day late, <BR>dollar short) but at the same time when does it become "ok" to be a jealous husband?>><P>Hi, GFB!<BR>Hope you are doing OK, too. I'm hanging in there, praying that what I think I'm seeing is what really IS, and not what I wish it to be. My H seems to be coming around, and at least for today, I am thankful for that!<P>When is it OK to be jealous? I think I can help answer that one! It's normal to feel jealous when someone we love puts someone else's feelings above our own. You see, when my H was in his EA, I was-- and still am-- extremely jealous of the attention he gave to the OW. Note the difference: I am not jealous of HER (in fact, I think she's a bit of a kook, to be honest with you)but of the time and attention he gave to her. It hurt me deeply, more than I've ever been hurt emotionally before. I want to be "first" with him. Just thinking about his giving his attention or affection to someone else makes me downright nauseous! <P>Now, why is this, do you suppose? Because I love him and to me, HE comes first. He always did, since I first fell in love with him. For him to put someone else in that first spot is like a slap in the face to me, as if he is saying, "Your feelings are not important to me anymore." Since we are what we feel (i.e., if you feel hungry, then you ARE hungry, etc.)that is akin to saying "YOU are not important to me anymore." Jealous? I think it's entirely natural and human to feel jealous under these circumstances, affair or NO affair!<P>I'd like to respond to your following comment, too, GFB. You wrote:<P>>>Why couldn't we share these feelings continuously with our spouses for the past ?? years. We as men are just numb to such emotional expression until it seems to be too late.>> <P>Wow! From a woman's perspective, I have to say that that is the single biggest love buster going. So many of us women say the same thing: why doesn't he open up to me and share what's going on in his mind or heart? I've finished reading Dr. John Gray's book, "Men Are From Mars....etc.", and it made a world of sense. Men as a rule just do not open up and talk the way women do. For us, it's as natural as breathing but for a man, just solving the problem is his goal, and to heck with talking about it. That's a very brief and poor summary of Dr. Gray's theories, but I think close enough. A woman NEEDS to hear "I love you." She needs to be reminded verbally that she is desirable, endearing, loveable, sexy, and just plain GOOD. Men tend to feel that their actions alone should be enough to 'prove' their love to their women, but that isn't the case. Women are emotional creatures by nature and our mainstay is verbal communication. If our men do not take the time to open up to us and TELL us how they feel, then eventually, we feel unloved. It's as simple as that. My own H is one of the biggest offenders of this! I can't recall the last time he actually said "I love you" to me. Ditto to how sexy or pretty I look, or how nicely I keep house, or how good I did on my job and so on. NO praise. No reassurance that I was special to him. All I got was how miserable life became after I got ill. Talk about laying a guilt trip on someone!! To be honest with you, it's a wonder I still love him at all. Many a woman would have walked away a long time ago and to be truthful, I thought about it myself, way before he even had his EA. <P><BR>I'm sorry...I know this was long, but it did my heart good to hear a man actually admit what you did. Hugs and more hugs to you, and I wish your wife only knew what a true gem she has for a husband!! <P>Now, I hope we hear back from Alone and see how things are going with him. Hopefully, ALL of us will wind up back with our mates to where we should be. It's good to have someone to talk to about this, isn't it?? Thanks again!<BR>Hugs,<BR>winny

Wife had a one-one session today. She called me and told me it was "productive and the therapist thinks there is hope". I told her I'd like to hear some of what was discussed if she felt like sharing. But I have had my hopes dashed in the past so I will wait. Basically, I am uncomfortable that she holds all the cards....I can't reach out to her and she is "afraid" to reach out to me because she is unsure of the "signal" it may send. This is something the therapist is supposed to be helping her find out. Meanwhile, it is 11 days until our 18 anniversary. I don't know how I'll feel if things haven't changed....<BR>Regards....

Winny,<BR>Funny you mentioned that book...I purchased it yesterday, "together forever." It blew the dust off my <BR>brain and I've already began to change my thinking. I'm hanging in there... though each day has <BR>begun to elongate. I had off from work yesterday and again today and if today becomes as long as <BR>yesterday felt....GOD!!!<P>Last night we began our exercises, it was progressive for the both of us though for myself it was <BR>torture. (Our past) We worked in the same entity together, similar to being in the same building, <BR>same company, just different departments so basically we spent quite a bit of time together. <BR>(Present) Last night my wife told me she believed our relationship was a "professional relationship," <BR>(this was just after she told me how much fun we had going out all the time in our earlier years) and <BR>that she doesn't love me anymore except as a person. SHATTERING..... In my perspective <BR>professional relationships develop between coworkers, not on an intimate level. It was only after the <BR>therapist and one of her friends mentioned this she hooked on to the reasoning (I assume). From this <BR>point of view let me express how I feel about counseling and my wife. She is content with picking up <BR>and leaving, I am not. Though my attempts to keep her as my wife are futile. It's like giving someone <BR>CPR who is non responsive. You just can't stop though you already know the final outcome. With <BR>this said, not I'm having second thoughts on why I should keep trying with her and not throw in the <BR>towel. She is very complacent on her decision...<P>"and I wish your wife only knew what a true gem she has for a husband!!" I think she does realize <BR>what type of person i am to her. We used to say and mean "I love you" all the time until recently she <BR>expressed she doesn't feel the compassion to say it anymore. They are just words...This is also truly <BR>devistating!<P>The OM has become angry (so my wife says) at the very thought I perceived. I just see her with him <BR>for some reason. The other morning I arrived at the training center (the Barn) earlier to give my wife <BR>a late start, everything was done when she arrived. Now between me not saying anything but "how <BR>ya doin'" (and that's all I ever say to him) to the OM he figured out I thought there was something <BR>going on between he and my wife. In an attempt not to ruin anyone's lively hood, I was going to <BR>apologize (to the OM) for thinking that way. My wife told me not to say anything to him at all <BR>because he is short tempered and I can be at times. The barn is now her office and she would like to <BR>avoid anymore conflict there then I/she may have already created. <P>I'm becoming more frustrated at her lack of ambition to repair us...she doesn't want to. To benefit <BR>from counseling you have got to believe somehow you can change or correct the way you feel or <BR>think, unfortunately she will not. And I'll have to say you put the word "Jealous" into a whole new <BR>light for me and from what you wrote, that is exactly how I feel.<P>I hope you and your husband rekindle some more today. <P>Alone, sounds like the first step in the right direction.<BR>Take care.<P>

Alone,<BR>I'm praying for you, Alone. Just keep thoughts of your anniversary as far from the front of your mind as you can for now. When the day gets here, it will be here and you can deal with it then. For now, just keep on keeping on and it sounds encouraging for you right now, by the way. <P>I know what you feel like: my 13th anniversary is coming up next month and I, too, don't know what it's going to be like for us. So, I try not to think about it for now or dwell on it. It's enough that my H and are are speaking and very civil/cordial to each other. It's not perfect, but it's a long way from where we were not so long ago.<P>God bless...<BR>Winny