HI, GFB,<BR>(glad you got the book, GF! it's a good read and makes a ton of good sense)<P>Talk about prophetic! I had a long reply typed up and hit the wrong button and away it flew into cyberspace. This gave me time to think and shorten it way down to this:<P>How did the OM find out that you felt suspicious of his intentions? I feel certain you did not tell him, so who does that leave? Right....your W. Now, if she told him that and he has such a flash temper, why did he not confront you? I have a feeling your W is a very clever gal who likes to keep all of her bases well covered. Again, this is very like my H, who tried very hard to make sure I couldn't follow a trail, for want of a better word. She doesn't want any unpleasantness at her place of work, so she tells you to back off? Of course, you will respect her wishes because you are very eager to win her back. It sounds to me like she has the PERFECT set up, my friend, and you might very well be playing right into it. I actually cringed when I read that you were really considering apologizing to him! Remember: you are not the one stepping outside your marriage vows here. Your wife has yet to prove she isn't either, given the statements she's made and the way she's treated you lately. <P>Follow your gut hunches, your intuition, GFB. God put them there for a good reason and it's up to us to use these gifts or not.<P>God bless,<BR>Winny<BR>

Winny, <BR>Finished the book, very good reading and thinking material though I wish I would've read the initial Men are from Mars when the mother in law brought it over...maybe I wouldn't be in this predicament.<P>I never though pain as intense as this existed. Emotions are just so powerful it's unreal. I can't say whether or not she is falling for this OM, and I don't really enjoy thinking about your responses(not being negative towards you, it just hurts me so deeply). Though I can't really rebuttal with anything nice to say of him and now my desire to visit my wife at the training facility has diminished in an attempt to give her space and to avoid conflict(with everyone over there). She has such a special magic with those animals and it makes me so giddy to see her so giddy working with them it's so FRUSTRATING!!!!<P>Another thing that frustrates me is the lack of a caring hug. She is in a time of emotional need and my hugs are sincere..maybe fulfilling to her. Myself on the other hand don't have that nurturing hug from her or anyone. I look into my dog's eyes because he somehow understands and looks back very sincere, causing me to break the stare and tear up. They seem to be the closest friends I have right now. And right now they'd do!!!<P>BTW where are you from in Phila? My Grandmother lives down by Tarsdale???<BR>I'll continue my post on Saturday, work is starting to get busy...<BR>Have a nice evening everyone!<BR>

Hi, GFB!<P>Sorry I couldn't get back to this post earlier, but my computer needed some work done on it to make it run better.<P>I live in the NW section of Philly. Since I'm new to the place, I have no idea where Tarsdale is! :-)<P>I'm sorry if my words were disturbing to you, and I know you are not upset with me personally, so don't worry about that. Just the thought of our spouses even thinking of someone else in a romantic way is enough to raise the old blood pressure! <P>It is maddening to not receive any sign of affection back from our spouses. I know--I've been there and to this day am sometimes STILL there. The best I can offer you in the way of hope is to start Plan A as soon as possible and have lots of patience, GFB. IF (and please note I capitalized 'if') your W is infatuated with this guy, perhaps that is all it is, an infatuation. Back in school, we called it a crush...remember? If she still loves you, in time with your love and attention to her EN's, she will get over this crush. It happens to the best of us--just a part of being human, I guess.<P>It's very sad when an infatuation is allowed to grow into something more. But those are the operative words: "is allowed." If you can get to the heart of what your W feels is lacking in her life w/you (emotional needs you may not be meeting), then you stand an excellent chance of winning her back. This happened with me and my H, and wow! what a wakeup call I had!! I thought I was such a good little wife, when in reality, I was doing lots of LB's for many years and never even realized it. This does not excuse his EA, but it does help to explain it.<P>Please keep us updated, ok?? As always, I am praying for you!<P>Alone: how are YOU doing?? I've been thinking about you and praying for you, too. How did the last session go? Please, if you have time, drop us a quick line or so and let us know.<P>Hugs and best wishes to you all...<BR>Winny<P><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited July 26, 2001).]

Well I am still here. But am laying low. It seems my kids have "found" this site accidentally while playing on my computer. So now my 15 yr old is a little "concerned". The last session went a little better. But truthfully, I told her that the ordeal is starting to wear me down. She says she wants to continue our relationship... This is all very maddening. We have another appt next week -- which falls after our anniversary. I am hoping something will happen on our anniversary....at least a kiss would be nice.<BR>Regards.....

Alone~<BR> Has it ever occurred to you maybe our wives have felt as unloved and minuscule as we do now???Just thought about that today...If it makes you feel any better I only got to see my wife a whole 18 hours out of 7 days last week...my stomached boiled over watching each minute tick by while we were apart. <P>A friend of mine today gave me some good advice..."you can't change her feelings, you can only change your behavior." What this means I haven't the slightest idea. It came after I asked if there was any hope in me trying anymore. We can't suddenly expect our wives to change in an instant nor with out any persuasion from us. So what do we do??? This is my delema, I can't figuire it out.<P>I think it's like being in a coma, something has to remind them of what it was like prior to things taking a turn for the worse. I'm still devastated, so far I've dropped 12 lbs in the last 25 days and haven't slept nearly a wink...I feel your pain man!!!<BR>GFB

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goinforbroke:<BR><B>Alone~<BR> <BR>I think it's like being in a coma, something has to remind them of what it was like prior to things taking a turn for the worse. I'm still devastated, so far I've dropped 12 lbs in the last 25 days and haven't slept nearly a wink...I feel your pain man!!!<BR>GFB</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>GFB,<BR>OK..I'll take a stab at it! Listen...your friend is telling you that you cannot change your wife's mind about having an affair (remember the cursed 'fog'??), but you can change the way you act and react around her. This is why you should really read about Plan A-Plan B. Clearly, there is something you either did or did not do that played a part in your wife's falling out of love with you. You need to find out from her what that was--and make the necessary changes in yourself. There is most likely some emotional need of hers that you did not fulfill, which is what usually starts most affairs. Remember, this is not the same as being at fault for her affair--that was her choice to make, and it was a bad choice, but it was HERS. If you haven't read all of the material Dr. Harley wrote on infidelity, start reading, my friend! Also, read about Plan A, Plan B. <P>Now..I want to make a comment on the above part of your letter that I copied. You said, " something has to remind them of what it was like prior to things taking a turn for the worse." Maybe it feels that way to YOU, but obviously, if things were that great in reality, how "good" could they have been for your wife? I know what you meant, though. You meant you wished you were close to your W again, and that this ugly time you're now having never existed. <P>You need to find out what caused your W to stray in the first place. On this site, you hear about love busters (called LB's for short), and how they can, over time, actually cause someone to look elsewhere. You can only get this info from your wife herself, so like I said before, get her talking to you. Ask her what went wrong, what needs did you not fulfill, why would she even consider a relationship with another man. Once you find out what EN's are important to her, you'll be able to start on the path to recovery (hopefully). <P>Hang in there, and as always, best wishes to you...<BR>Winny

Winny, <BR>I welcome your thought, but I never said she actually <BR>visited the dark side of infidelity though the thought may <BR>have existed, I've been pretty persistent on the topic and <BR>it just makes her more angry and distant...though I believe <BR>you're right on the money with the interpretation. <P>Now I believe I know what went wrong between us, a major <BR>communication disaster! How do I fix it???....Notice I <BR>sad "I." She will not show the slightest sign of <BR>recovery...I can't change the way she feels I can only <BR>change the way I behave??? I'm attempting to...though she <BR>will not let me in, I guess only due time will tell. When <BR>does kicking the dead horse become just that?? Today I just <BR>wanted the pain to end and almost agreed to end the <BR>relationship.<P>FYI, I'm not abusive in any manner and I don't particularly <BR>like to argue. I speak well, I've been told I'm <BR>attractive/in shape, non alcoholic/non smoker....the <BR>counselor said I was anal because I began to get angry in <BR>her office, but who knows about those people. How sound can <BR>they be, right?? <P>A friend of mine purchased Battlefield of the Mind for me <BR>to look through. I think everyone is telling me to give up <BR>clear my head and move on...for some reason I feel if this <BR>happens I will become very spiteful...but maybe this is why <BR>I need to read the book.<P>Alone~ you still with us?? Remember to clear your cookies, <BR>history then change your password. <P>Take care, <P>GFB

GFB,<BR>Yep, I realize that you never said she actually had an affair, and I was trying to word my letter as carefully as I could. But, you know what?? Even if a person desires another but takes no action on it (as in having sex with each other), it's called an "EA" (the dreaded emotional affair), and in reality it can be more deadly to a marriage than an out and out physical affair. Now, I'm not talking the silly crush-on-a-moviestar type of desire, I'm talking about another person who is on the scene and has captured the mind and/or heart of someone else's spouse. If the spouse also has similar feelings towards the OP (other person), then that is an emotional affair. Like I said in another post, an EA is just one opportunity away from being a PA, or physical affair.<P>As for working on your ability to communicate with her, keep working on it but don't expect miracles too quickly. GFB, for many people, it takes time. Lots of time. The hard part is the waiting for the WS (please allow me to use these abbreviations so that others will be able to follow who's who on this thread too, ok? Thanks!)to come around. Depending on the amount of harbored anger or hurt, this can take a very long time. If you sincerely love her and you indicated several times that you do, then you just have to be patient. Also, there are other steps to Plan A and I can't stress enough that you have to read about it, GFB, to know what to do. <P>You said she will not show the slightest sign of recovery. Please do read up on the "Recovery" section, too, to get a grasp of what Dr. Harley means about recovery. When you EACH start to know, understand and meet each other's emotional needs, then you are in the recovery stage. It is much too soon for her to show signs of recovery right now. IF...and I stress IF...she is infatuated or in love with the other man, then she is still in the fog stage. READ about that, too! It's an important one and I'd read it anyway, if I were you. It just might explain a whole lot of her current behavior to you. Just remember this: people in that fog are NOT in control of their minds or emotions as rational people! They are running on a tremendous high and everything else in their lives that was important to them can fly right out the window. You will see how up becomes down, black becomes white and all kinds of little uglies! You won't get too far with a mate in this fog unless or until they start to come out of it and frankly, your feelings and well being will mean very little to them (if anything at all)while they're in the throes of it. If you don't know what I'm talking about , you really do need to read Dr Harley's description of it (or read through the many posts on this site!)<P>Just know that you are only at the very start of a very long and sometimes stomach-turning road, my friend. It takes more strength and sheer guts than you ever thought you had, but if you really love your mate, you can do this. <P>Keep on posting here, too, GFB. You will find a lot of supportive friends here and I hope you consider me one of them. I know my words sometimes cause emotional anguish, but that's the name of this horrible game called "infidelity." When someone we love suddenly falls out of love with us--for whatever reason--it is like someone killing our very lives as we once knew them. Coming to this site has helped to save my own marriage but it didn't come easily. The fine people here helped me to keep my sanity and they buoyed me and countless otheres up when we needed it the most. <P>YOu won't resurrect a dead horse by kicking it. LOL! But, you may just breathe gentle life back into your love if you take the time to try.<P>God bless and hugs,<BR>Winny<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 02, 2001).]

Alone-in-CNY,<BR> I've been reading this whole thread for the last hour or so. I have so much empathy for you. Without filling you in on my whole story (yet , I just wanted you to know that I know how you feel, at least somewhat. I'm at a crossroads and we've considered therapy several times. Truthfully, I haven't heard much positive feedback from anyone I've talked to. I guess at some point though, you have nothing to lose. I would really like to hear how things are going with you and how therapy is at this point. You're probably overrun with advice at this point, but therapists are like anything else....there are good ones and bad ones. I'm hoping that if your sessions haven't become more productive, that maybe it's just the wrong match for you. Anyway...just thinking about you. Let us know how you are. <P>

I am still here. Our anniversary came and went with very little fanfare. We exchanged cards and we gave each other a hug...still felt like there was no deep feeling from my wife. We cancelled our appt on Wed becasue we have been very busy and really felt we had nothing new to share. I am afraid it is starting to slowly turn for me. I do not know how much longer I can continue to exist in this kind of relationship. I watched this "Dr. Phil" on Oprah...he is good just because he doesn't mince words etc. I'd wish I could get us to see him...I feel he could somehow get through and help us get back...or at least get me some answers. Well, maybe alot of his stuff is "made for TV" but at least he seems to provoke some deep thought in the patients.<BR>Regards....<BR>

Hey. Alone!!<BR>I was so happy this a.m. to see your post. I've been thinking about you and hoping things went well for your anniversary. At least you are still together, and you exhanged a small sign of affection (the hugs). I know it's like receiving an empty box as a gift--the trappings are all there but nothing you hoped for inside. But, that's OK...for now. At least, she is still living with you and you may not see it right now, but that is a start. Just read some of the posts on this site where spouses suddenly packed up and left and your stomach will turn.<P>Have you read the section here on Emotional Needs? If not, I urge you to do so ASAP. Also, if you can, print out the emotional needs questionnaire and if your W will not fill one out (and of course, YOU fill one out, too) then fill it out for her as best as you can guess what her answers would be. What you and GFB seem to be missing here is that there are some NEEDS your spouses have that you have not or are not meeting. It is imperative that you find out what those needs are or you will not go forward. Trust me--it works. We can sit here all day long and read and post but if you don't do the necessary homework, things are going to do one of two things; stay the same or get worse.<P>People fall out of love with their SO's because something is missing in the relationship. Usually, it is some emotional need that goes unfulfilled. It can be something as little as having one's birthday forgotten year after year, or it can be something as big as total neglecting of a mate's feelings, hopes or desires. Private therapy is only as good as the therapist, and if things aren't progressing too well over a reasonable amount of time (say, like3 or 4 months), then perhaps you can find a better therapist. I used to work for a board certified Psychiatrist, and while he was good with some of his patients, others just could NOT relate to him. It's all a part of the human condition--we can't agree with or like everyone we meet. Personally, I think it takes more than therapy to get through this. It takes a LOT of reading, communicating with others such as we do here, and finding a system that makes SENSE, such as Dr. Harley's system.<P>Both you and GFB are completely at sea right now with your emotions and thought processes. You are in that stage that all BS's go through. For each of you, you don't really know what's going on behind the scenes, but you DO know that your wives have changed towards you. My new friends, that is a giant red flag, and if you don't see that at some point, you are going to continue to be 'at sea.' Yes, it's hard to admit or believe that the person you'd die for could possibly turn on you, but it happens. It happens every day to countless numbers of people. The trick here is to make up your mind if you want to save your marriage or not, and if you do want to, then you must dig in and get busy!! I urge you both again to READ all about infidelity, Emotional Needs, Plan A- Plan B and all of the other excellent material Dr. Harley has provided for us here.<P>I never would have believed four months ago that my H and I would be together today. All of a sudden and out of the blue, he was totally hateful towards me, like an alien creature from outer space. NOTHING made any sense, and I was suddenly the biggest enemy in his life. It took me totally by surprise and I was crushed. He threatened to walk out the door many, many times--and although he never left home, he virtually deserted me in our brand new locality (we moved) and left me to my own devices. I am crippled, by the way, with a terrible bone ailment--but even that did not stir his heart, and he refused to help me even ONE inch. I was terrified and actually, my life was in danger. It's hard enough when you're able-bodied, but with a physical handicap, Life can get pretty difficult. Unable to drive a car, I had to find ways to doctors' offices, grocery stores and all the rest. He never, ever treated me like this before and I thought I had fallen off of the Earth and into the Twilight Zone! At one point, I thought about suicide and QUICKLY talked myself out of that!! I am a "survivor", and that nonsense is NOT for me.<P>By the grace of God, I found MB site in March and printed out ALL of the instructional material. I studied it, I devoured it, and I learned. I started looking at my H in a new light, and realized that what I had to do was to get him talking and to LISTEN to him. I listened more and talked less. I found out that I was sadly negelecting some very important EN's, and it's no wonder he turned (briefly, thank God!) to someone else. Through patience and continued effort on my part, he started to come around and today, we are truly in recovery. Plan A works, friends. Right now, it's your best shot. All of the therapy in the world will not help you until you realize that you are partially responsible for the condition your M is in today. MB will help you to discover these things, and much more.<P>God bless....get busy! <BR>Hugs,<BR>Winny<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 03, 2001).]

Alone,<BR> I love Dr. Phil, too. Again, I know lack of advice is not your problem, but Dr. Phil has a new book out - I think it's called Life Strategies for Relationships (the word Relationships is in the title). It is a wonderful guide for rebuilding. His first book, Life Strategies, was really good too. And...if you haven't printed out Dr. Harley's material on this site, I agree with Winnie that it's a wonderful place to start. I think the material here could possibly be much more help than a less-than-great therapist might be. Cancelling therapy appointments is not a good sign - I feel like you're running out of strength. I KNOW that feeling. This may not apply to you at all, but depression can zap your strength to accomplish anything. Dr. Harley recommends you FIRST see your doctor to get a RX for antidepressants before you begin the big job of rebuilding. I am a healthcare provider, and I can't tell you how much people benefit from these meds if they're needed. Just a thought...<P>Good luck and keep us posted

<BR>Hi, almostbroken;<BR>Yours is very good advice, too, re: antidepressants. Because I had some knowledge of their side effects, I declined them and later on, was VERY sorry that I did. At least, I take Flexeril for part of my phyiscal problems now and that is a help, believe it or not.<P>This type of mental/emotional trauma is very taxing on the body and can lead to exhaustion both mentally and physically. I know YOU know this, but perhaps our two guys here may not realize it. Once I got my nerves calmed down with Flexeril (which is really a muscle relaxant), I was better able to face all that I had to do.<P>BTW, welcome to this thread--I'm so happy to see you here! I can't explain it, but I am truly worried about both GFB and Alone, probably because the memory of that emotional anguish is still so fresh in my mind. I was also very resistant to the idea that there might be someone else in the background, and when I found out for sure, the shock of it nearly killed me. I hate to see this happen to others and will do whatever I can to lend a hand.<P>God bless!<BR>Hugs,<BR>Winny<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 03, 2001).]

"Just know that you are only at the very start of a very long and sometimes stomach-turning road, my friend. It takes more strength and sheer guts than you ever thought you had, but if you really love your mate, you can do this."<P>Winny, you couldn't be more correct with the above <BR>statement. I don't know where i'll find this inner strength. As for taking a toll emotionally and physically, I've lost 12 lbs since she laid the news on me(1 month). I'm not into taking anything orally for depression, I have numerous applications in for police officer jobs...I'm just going to stick with my Kava Kava herbal remedy, it seems to help. Our mutual friends have been pushing religion and there is no time like the present to start believing. I'm <BR>not sure if I know how. I've been reading a new book, The Battlefield in the Mind (mostly explains Bible scriptures and how to think positive). The title makes me feel like a psychopath but the words inside seem to hold value and my interest. The book stresses if we want the Lord's help, we just have to ask. <P>I know I touched base on this, but how do I gain her interest again? Every time I go to hug her, kiss or even hold her hand she pulls further away. I feel disgusting due to her rejection. When I confront her she says her feelings have changed. In my mind we've just become roommates. My <BR>communication skills may have improved but it always winds up with me whining or angry due to her responses.. I think I'm in denial!!!<P>As for the OM issue. I trust her and I don't I guess. For some reason I can't stop bringing it up to her but I want so bad for my immature mind to stop being spiteful concerning the issue. Yesterday i went to the farm/barn and yes he was there though nothing was exchanged between us, not even a <BR>hello...this is funny because I used to clown around with him prior to this issue. UGH, I can't continue on this topic.<P>Almostbroken~Thanks for joining the board, I haven't quite figured out if all of us consoling each other is helping or hurting..i.e., giving us ammunition, readying for the next battle. This is my only place for console aside from the counselor, whom I'm sure I'll want to kill and hug at times..<P>Alone~I was going to see if you'd like to get together for lunch sometime. I don't quite know what good it'll do except we would understand each other and neither of us are therapists...sometimes I guess it takes a normal, well depressed (LOL) person to talk to. I live close to Port Jervis, and am 1.5 hrs from Newburgh and Monticello. I pretty much live where PA/NY/NJ all connect. Let me <BR>know what your thoughts are. My e-mail address is m_jg_2001@yahoo.com.<P>Winny, Almostbroken, feel free to use my e-mail address though I would like to keep my emphasis within this website <P>GFB<P>

Dear Alone<BR>I have been struggling with a withdrawing spouse for four years. The withdrawal doesn't involve any affairs, other than her total pre-occupation with professional school. She'll be done and earning a bit of money in 9 mos. When men go into this profession, they call medical school, "the mistress." Now, I understand why.<BR>Before getting into school, she moved 2,000 miles away for a job transfer--I knew it would be a challenge. After a very weird year I moved her "back" to school, 200 miles away. Then, the truth came out. She had been dissatisfied about a lot of stuff for a very LONG time, but couldn't say it<P>I have come to the opinion that far too many men get aggressive during conflict and far too many women just withdraw. Of course, neither is a loving response. But, just what is this downward spiral and how do you get out of it without the always fatal mistake of continuing to blame each other?<P>Harley helped a lot, but I read many others, including Michele Wiener Davis (Divorcebusting). They both provide a good structure to understand the deterioration--and how to plan to improve things. The problem is that the wife doesn't like either one!<P>So, I found John Gottman at the Gottman Institute at the University of Washington. Wonderful research!<P>His new 2001 book, Relationship Cure does a wonderful job of explaining why some couples do such a good job of working through disagreements and how far too many are at each others throats over the same items. <P>I think there are still some excerpts of his work at smartmarriages.com as well as the website for Gottman institute.<P>You will enjoy reading about his "Love Lab" and how they analyzed the hundreds of couples that they observed.<P>As I read the book, I felt so badly regarding how poorly we socialize boys--and don't do that much better with girls, I guess. Anyway, after you read about Gottman's concept of "bidding" and the choices that we all have to turn toward, turn away, or turn against--the deterioration or preservation of marriage makes a lot more sense.<P>I'm still struggling with marital therapy, though. The lack of structure and the lack of a plan devalue the process, for me.<P>Good luck<P>r

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goinforbroke:<BR><B> I know I touched base on this, but how do I gain her interest again? Every time I go to hug her, kiss or even hold her hand she pulls further away. I feel disgusting due to her rejection. When I confront her she says her feelings have changed. In my mind we've just become roommates. My <BR>communication skills may have improved but it always winds up with me whining or angry due to her responses.. I think I'm in denial!!!<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi, GFB,<BR>I know EXACTLY what you feel like, GFB. My H pulled away from me so strongly, suddenly, and with such venom that I swear to Holy God, I thought that we were going to split up. <P>Let's agree for a few minutes that your W is not in love with this other man.Well, something has happened inside of her that has changed her feelings towards you. Deep anger, or resentment, perhaps? Possibly, fear. Whatever the case, she is not physically repsonsive to you.<P>Here are two things I've been concentrating on with my own marriage, and they worked wonders for me. One, I stopped mentioning ALL references to the other person. Two, I looked for an 'open door' with my H and found one. I discovered that given an opportunity, he would open up to me and tell me all about his trials and tribulations on his new job. The 'old me' would offer advice or constructive criticism, and remembering that that seemed to drive him nuts, I just kept my mouth shut. I'd nod my head, offer little comments such as, "Oh, really?", or "And how did that make you feel?", or "I bet that made you feel pretty awful." Before long, he was REALLY opening up to me, going way beyond the work experience. Then, he started telling me about things I'd done or said in the past and how they hurt him, or upset him, and so on. AGAIN, I'd just listen--and did not make any disrespectful judgements (that's a Dr. Harle-ism!)--and soon, we were really communicating. Once he realized that I was not going to attack him or his feelings, thoughts, or beliefs (no matter how eroneous I mave have felt they were), the rest was easy.<P>Now, mind you, all the while this was happening, he would NOT even touch my hand or arm, let alone have sex with me. Then, one night he invited me to touch him and I did so, with lots of mixed emotions. The Plan A thing was always in my mind, and I truly DID want to touch him, but a part of me was hurt, angry, suspicious and all that ugly kind of thing. I decided to use this opportunity as another open door, and believe it or not, this went on for MONTHS. No sign whatsoever of affection or love from him TO me, but I was allowed to touch him. Plan A or bust, I thought! I perservered. <P>This weekend, it happened. It was the first time he had touched me and really made love to me in 13 months, and I was very pleasantly surprised, to say the least. <P>What is notable is that in the time previous to this w/e, I learned to NOT ask, or beg, or show how needy I was for his affection. All I did was what I was "invited" to do--which means for quite few months, NOTHING--and I did it with my heart and deep love for him. Somewhere along the way, he woke up and realized that I HAD FEELINGS, TOO. He started to get worried, right down to expresing his innermost fear that I might stray due to his lack of affection. This is called 'coming out of the fog', and it is the beginning of the withdrawal stage from the OP. After months of agony, I was suddenly starting to truly hope again. Plan A started to get easier and easier.<P>GFB, I am truly so sorry that you are going through his (and Alone, you, too). BUT, I am here to tell you that Plan A WORKS. I read about it working for other couples and thought "well, it can't possibly work for me", but it did. I learned the hard way that when a mate pulls away, no matter how much it may hurt you, right or wrong, you have to respect their feelings and not inundate them with panicky questions, or pleas for intimacy. When your W is ready, she will open back up to you--but she won't do that until she is ready. Pressuring her to be intimate in any way with you will only make her pull back even further.<P>I don't know how it is for a man, but a woman's sexual desire is directly proportionate to the way she feels about herself and the way her lover makes her feel about herself. If she is struggling with inner issues about her likes, dislikes, tastes, hopes, dreams, wants or needs, she will not give herself to her man until she works these things out. You must help her to find out what it is that is blocking her. And, you may have to accept the fact that her feelings for you may never come back, too. (Ouch..I know that hurts, but, it's one reality that may be a possibility). Before you give up or throw in the towel, give her a good chance to discover and then share with YOU what is bothering her. I guarantee she is upset or bothered by something and it concerns you. For instance,you might be a threat to her supposed 'happiness' with the other man, assuming she is in love with him. See what I mean? Evenif she has not let him touch her but only wishes he would or could, you represent a blockage, and that could make her very, very angry and bitter. I know....it happened to me in my first marriage, and my ex-H was the LAST person on earth I'd let be intimate with me once my EA was underway.<P>Get her talking to you, GFB. And start reading all you can on this site, to, ok??<P>Good luck, and I wish you a better week ahead...<BR>Winny<P><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 06, 2001).]

Winny,<BR> I've already visited the fact of my W may never finding a place for me in her heart again, and it is a rude awakening. Last night she went to the race track and assisted the OM with his horse there, then arrived home after midnight which isn't uncommon and I refrained from any mentioning of the time she spent out of the house. I kept telling myself it was a career enhancing evening, trying to remain positive. She is in a business/coming into the business and the OM is the only person who helps her out in any way, shows her the ropes so to say. It just rubs me wrong, maybe I'm too controlling. Prior to her new profession I knew everything she did and she knew everything I did. This lead to poor <BR>communications, neither of us had separate relationships with friends...well she certainly does now. I sit home dwelling in fear and denial while she goes places with other people..I have to learn to accept it, though when we first began dating she would not have any part of this, I became used to it.<P>Similar to your H inviting you to touch him (i think I know what you mean) I offer this to my W (for me to touch her), sometimes I'm privileged to massage her from head to toe (which is wonderful) and sometimes I just get to look at her back in bed. For a man intimacy is extremely physical, we could pissed at the world one moment and deep into sex the next. We're odd creatures sometimes lacking logical thought. My wife is just about finished with school, 16 cram credits for her degree...guess what her empasis/major was...yep, Psychology. So see what I'm going up against???<P>Each evening I've gone to bed listening and feeling my heart pump as hard as it ever has, my mind as confused as it will ever be and my feelings a mixed than ever expected. I don't expect her to worry if I'll stray somewhere to find intamacy, she has pretty much said "do what you have to do." <P>I have backed off her, began listening more completely to her and also began to think what I am thinking about...I hope this week keeps me positive.<P>Where are the Plan A and B areas??<P>Thanks for the hugs!<BR>GFB

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goinforbroke:<BR><B>Each evening I've gone to bed listening and feeling my heart pump as hard as it ever has, my mind as confused as it will ever be and my feelings a mixed than ever expected. I don't expect her to worry if I'll stray somewhere to find intamacy, she has pretty much said "do what you have to do." <P><BR>Thanks for the hugs!<BR>GFB</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>GFB,<BR>You're very welcome! It's so good to get encouragement, and just as wonderful to give it!<P>As for Plan A, Plan B...go back to the main forums page and scroll down the list (it's towards the bottom of the pg.) until you see the article listed there for Plan A- Plan B. Or, cheat a little and go to this link directly: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html</A> <P>GFB, take heart. My H told me, too, in so many words that he didn't care if I had to "do what I had to do" re: personal or other satisfaction. This was while he was in the middle of that cursed fog, and like I said before, statements like that are VERY common while one is in the fog. Lots of things they say make NO concrete sense at all, and are usually 180 degrees opposite of what they would normally say or feel. As they come to terms one way or the other with the other person, they may start to come out of the fog. At that point they are beginning to emotionally separate themselves from the OP, and that stage is called withdrawal. A gradual return to sanity can be observed, and if you do the Plan A correctly, believe it or not, true recovery can happen. To recap,just because your W said this awful thing to you, don't take it to heart. It's not really HER talking, it's the present state of her emotions which Dr. Harley has very adequately described as "the fog."<P>I have a question for you, if that's OK. I was just wondering what your relationship was like with her before she became distant with you. At any time, did you get the feeing that things were not well--or, put another way, did she ever indicate to you that she was unhappy with you? Were you two close? Without going into personal details, was your sex life good for the both of you?(I mean, did she have any long standing complaints?) OK, that's a couple of questions! One more question: did this change in her seem to come from out of the blue, or were things pretty bad to start with? Your answer will reveal a lot of what might be going on in the present, GFB. Of course, if I am prying where I shouldn't, please forgive me. But, that is what this board is so useful for, the exchange of ideas and information.<P>Have a good day....take a few deep breaths and please realize all is NOT necessarily lost!<BR>Hugs again,<BR>winny<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 06, 2001).]

Well to answer your questions briefly...<BR>Over the past year we bought a home, a race horse, a new $$$truck, car...Now the home is 1.5 hrs from work for me and 1 hr for her. I only work every three days and she works every day, races once a week(though now she is helping other people...she may be gone three nights a week, so add that to <BR>my 2 work days and we have a fat goose egg for days spent together, our schedules aren't always this bad , just when it counts the most, LOL) and she has a hell of a semester of college. So I'd say we were close due to all the decisions we made together and our devotion to each other during those busy times. Now I'm awaiting the end of the semster, Aug 27 to see if things lighten up for her. <P>She had mentioned that we never sit together, or could go through a meal without speaking...though if she said "We never sit together anymore and I feel like I need more from you" I would've taken thing differently instead of "You never sit with me!" <P>Our sex life was great up to the last yr when things got busy sex got lost, I think. Now I feel like less of a man, unattractive and like I have to compete to win her courtship again.(I also think I'm attempting to change myself into the person i think she wants, i.e., OM. This is bad...and yes this did come out of the blue, though not without me asking what's wrong a hundred times(be careful for what you ask!!!)<BR>Now she is totally distant... I feel so combative lately, but I attempt to maintain composure. Advice from battlefield of the mind, look at things in a positive perspective...she went to the race track to increase her knowledge and network...yeah that's it...*laugh* That was probably what she did but thinking that way takes years of practice and forces the mind into denial. Well, Wifey should be home <BR>any minute so I'll cut this short and simmer down...Kava Kave time.<P>GFB

GFB, <P>From the way you describe it, your marriage sounds a lot like it was an upwardly-mobile, thriving relationship. At least, it sounds like the two of you were making some good decisions together and accomplished quite a bit. Along the way, just as in my own case, the two of you lost touch with each other as you got busier and more involved with career and outside interests, including schooling for your wife. You don't mention children, so I assume there aren't any. <P>Our marriages were a lot alike in some ways, GFB. My H is a workaholic and a very tenderhearted person who literally supported three other families besides our own. We had a very successful sideline computer business that branched out into a few areas, including real estate. Between my outside interests which included being a professional musician, and his, a professional martial artist, we eventually nearly lost each other when a real crisis came along (my illness). The point is, the more we became involved with others and other interests, the less time and energy we had for ourselves, and soon a gulf opened up as wide as the Grand Canyon. All it took was one bad crisis for us, and there was nothing left in our Love Banks to sustain us. (Read Dr. Harley's article on Love Busters, too)<P>Sooner or later, the scales tip. One can only ignore for just so long the personal feelings and side of life that every human being experiences and desires. Yours is such a classic setup for an outside affair, if I've ever heard of one. Just as in my own situation, the two of you have grown apart and one day, "out of the blue," someone caught your W's attention and that personal side of life sprang into gear. This is not to say she is having an affair, but she does show all of the signs of being interested in someone else. One of the first clues is the physical drawing away, the denying of sex or physical contact (such as spurned hugs or kisses, or very lukewarm hugs/kisses in return). That is a very potent red flag, GFB. It doesn't mean she had or is having sex with someone else, but it could very well mean she desires it and being legally bound to YOU, resents not being a free agent to act upon those desires. This was my H's problem: he would not actually do the deed, but I'm sure he wanted to very, very much. I became the block, the one who stood in his way, and for that he resented me very badly. Add into the mix the other person, who has desires of his or her own, and there they are, pitching away for all they're worth. It's no wonder people do have affairs. Being unfulfilled personally, many respond to attention from another source. <P>You are armed to the teeth with books and info (as you've mentioned in previous posts), and that's good. But, pick and choose the system or systems you'd like to work with and go from there. I personally recommend Dr. Harley's system, GFB, because it makes such good sense on many levels. Your wife clearly has needs that were and/or are NOT being met by you, just as much as you have needs that are not being met by her. Like I said before, you need to dig in now, and get to work. Find out what her needs are (or were), and start Plan A'ing ASAP. <P>Remember that old saw that went something like this: "If things were good in the home, he (or she) wouldn't have looked elsewhere" ? Something went lacking between the two of you, but it is not too late to discover what it was and to work on it together. One of you has to start, so it might as well be you. She is not receptive to anything you have to say on the topic right now, anyway, so what have you got to lose??<P>If you need to vent or talk, lots of us are here for you. Keep on reading, trying, posting, and most of all, praying. God will listen and He will help you, if you ask Him. Just be open to new ideas and concepts and use prayer to guide you along the way.<P>Have a great day, now, ok??<BR>Hugs and prayers,<BR>Winny <p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 07, 2001).]