Win, <BR>My wife and I had a thriving relationship minus the children, we spoke of having children last yr but figured it wasn't the best time, when really it was. Now I may never have th opportunity to create life with my W...back to the topic, so according to myself our relationship was good (little busy), my W on the other hand must have thought something completely different. I attempt to explore why we <BR>did so much together if our relationship was so bad but I didn't/don't get far. When I ask her she says "people change." (Sure with some persuasion) Our short list of accomplishments I wrote/explained in my last post is just the tip of the iceberg...<P>My mind is split in many different directions, one part wants to remain in this relationship, another says there are bigger and better fish out there, another part is having a nervous breakdown, and the other keeps directing my jaw to cinch down on my tongue...."Your wife clearly has needs that were and/or are NOT being met by you." This is true as of now, though I'm trying until I'm blue in the face, she will not let me in! Whether I'm quite, angry, supportive, loving or all the above she is not receptive nor does she want to be.<P>Last night W had a one on one with the counselor, I asked her how it went she said "good"...that was all. The funny thing was, i just finished cleaning the house and when she came home she began to "straighten things up again" and I knew something was bothering her??? I' comfortable never <BR>having that info disclosed. LOL<P>I read through the plan A-B, my W has somewhat convinced me she is not involved with the OM (and according to statistics, the significant other never finds out anyway) and i know for a fact if presented with Plan A-B she'll fly off the handle. As of right now it's impossible for her to not see this person. They don't work in a factory where she can be relocated, all of our horses are right next to each other with no place else to go. So maybe I'll just try to accept what she is telling me not what I perceive. Though I'll make an attempt to visit the farm on Saturday morning just to make my presence known to all the young swinging you know whats...When determined(and upset), I let my Law Enforcement mentality kick in, observe, collect and intimidate by not doing anything. Most of the people at the farm, or in the race horse business are crooked, foul mouthed pigs who wouldn't think twice to screw someone's significant other. My wife has told she has witnessed it on many occasions... <P>Let me get to the errands, sorry I didn't elaborate much, and my post seems a bit out of organization. I'm still digesting you third paragraph and my mind is tad off track.....regarding venting steam, I let a mutual friend of our listen to that...it gets too steamy for the board.<P>I noticed you mentioned were disabled from an illness, how and from what?<BR>What a hot couple of days it's been???<P>GFB<p>[This message has been edited by Goinforbroke (edited August 08, 2001).]

GFB,<BR>I had a feeling that third paragraph in my last post was a little confusing! That's what happens when I sit down and contact this board before 9 a.m.! <P>Anyway, what I meant was, if she felt the two of you were growing apart and didn't know enough to approach you about it before it hit the melt-down stage, and if the two of you had an almost no sex life for the past year, then that doesn't mean the inner urge for sex died for all time. Sooner or later, it rises to the surface and sometimes a perfect stranger can cause it to happen. Or, a good friend...or, a work partner...or, etc. etc. The point is that when two married people grow apart for whatever reason, it's never good. Something is bound to happen, much like the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. People sometimes bury their inner feelings in a variety of ways: alcohol, drugs, sex, even over $pending. Like a pot slowly simmering to a boil, eventually something's gotta give. <P>Now, about that Plan A-Plan B thing. You made me giggle when I read what you wrote! You don't TELL her you're going to Plan A, you just do it. Since she is totally unreceptive to you right now, the last thing you'd want to do is to tell her about Plan A. I like what you said about your law enforcement experience behavior. Quiet, observing, not creating a 'fuss', that's a good plan. That AND Plan A, that is. The more you talk about your pain with her right now, and the more of an issue you make out of it, the more she will pull away. Hey..IF (and it's just an 'if') she has feelings for this other man, down deep she feels a bit guilty. Maybe a LOT guilty. If you try to talk about it to her, you only help that guilt to surface again and again, and create a negative atmosphere for her. Just let the topic be for now with her, and Plan A your butt off! <P>If she is NOT recpetive to your efforts right now, don't get discouraged. Like I said before, it takes time. She will notice a difference in YOU, and that may get her attention. <P>When I first started Plan A w/my H, he had (and still has)NO idea about MB, Plan Anything, etc. I just very quietly and patiently changed the way I approached him. I stopped being combative, I tried to encourage him to tell me what he was feeling. I never PUSHED him to talk, I just threw out the invitation time and again. Things went on for about 2 months with him still in his shell, his heart totally hardened towards me, and very uncommunicative, much like your W. I thought I'd lose my mind!! I lost over 20 pounds, lost countless hours of sleep and all the rest. Then, after about 2 months, he started really talking with me--not yelling, accusing, blaming, all of that silly garbage that he spouted off in the previous 2 months--but really TALKING with me. And, the more he talked, the more I listened. What I found out rocked my world, but they were things I needed to hear. Clearly, I had not been meeting quite a few of his greatest emotional needs for a good many years, and they were things he tried to tell me about but I was listening with the wrong set of ears. I started to listen to him more proactively, as if I were in his shoes, and I learned that arguing was never the way to go. I just let him get it all out without fear of disrespectful judgement--and today, a full five months since I started Plan A, he has come back to me. We actually made love for the first time in a year last weekend. See my grin?! <P>Did I get to learn all of the "details" of his alleged EA? No. However, I learned the most important thing wasn't what he did with someone else, but what we do together, now, today, from this point forward.<P>Sorry, I know this is super long, but GFB, if things are meant to work out for you and your W, Plan A is truly your best shot. Just be real patient and keep on reading Dr. Harley's info here. Personally, I plan to continue with Plan A for life, because it makes so much good sense. It has changed ME as a person and I think for the better. <P>OK..I better stop now, or you'll never get to read it all!! Hang in there...I'm praying for you!<BR>Hugs,<BR>Winny<P>PS<BR>I have a rare bone disease that imitates bone cancer. My bones and joints are dying, and some of them have been replaced; others can't be replaced. Mine is a painful existance, but it's doable. It's only made me stronger, and today, I run a world-wide support group for this disese. thanks for asking! <P><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 08, 2001).]

Winny, <BR>My W and I have a good friend (trusted fellow horsemen) whose wife has Rheumatoid Arthritis, sounds similar to your issue, we can relate to what you're feeling. My W helps him out on Sundays, sometimes, so he doesn't have to come in, just spends the day with his wife. What is your group called, maybe I'll pass it on, that's if I ever get invited to my wife's place of work (funny it's "our" family <BR>business, but I can't go) LOL.<P>Regarding your second para...Thinking of her thinking of someone else..UGH. That is all!<BR>Now, I think I've been attempting Plan A, but you know that person who just kept kicking your chair in school?? Eventually you had to say something. That is how I feel each time she doesn't hold my hand or tell me she loves me or doesn't call or look at me with any admiration in her eyes...Tonight we went to the movies, I felt totally awkward and basically blew $14.00, except I spent time with her, and that's all that counted?! <P>If an EA has been considered by her, I'm sure to never know unless she comes right out and says it. I'm not sure if I could deal with it either without some aggression twds the OM even though it was partially my fault, I'll blame him completely. The last time I was at the farm, as I posted earlier her "friend" totally ignored me...the thing that got my goat was, he followed me from the highway to the farm, 10 minute drive, I was so enraged maybe he read me and choose flight over fight, but his damn dog pooped right out side my car door, as i was getting out, LOL, she was trying to tell me something...We're better off that way I guess?? Though I feel as if I have to make my presence known, make people think, don't "talk" bad about GFB's wife, he'll chew your head off. Though I would like to avoid don't "go near" GFB's wife. Well I'll back off that topic with her, Monday I get to one on one with the counselor. I pray she doesn't tell me, my wife cheated.<P>I'm not very religious but I'm starting to read and have faith, hoping to catch on. Friends of our are Christians, another couple are Protestant, I was born catholic..where to start???? <BR>Coincidence?? I was out running yesterday and a thunder cloud just blew over (in the Battlefield book, it quotes a Bible verse, Matthew 14:24-32??) I said "bring it on I'll walk on the water" (I hope I spoke of faith) then it started to rain (I was a mile out but could've made it home quickly via short cut) someone was trying to get me to quit, I pushed on and the rain stopped until the second I walked <BR>through the door. My entire route completed, it was very coincidental. <P>I'll let you go, it's funny our lives revolve around the horse business, here I am pouring my heart out to <BR>"Winny." Not calling you a horse, it's just the sound our horses make. Coincidence?<BR>My posts' seem to get more unorganized...I'l have to place more thought prior to responding.<P>GFB<BR>Have you ever gone for broke?

GFB,<BR> !! I loved the "Winny" thing!! We could also say, "out of the horse's mouth!" LOL! I happen to adore horses, by the way, and there is a full stable on the property behind me, where they house about a dozen horses. One of my fav paststimes these days is to go sit under the oak tree out back and watch these lovely creatures. <P>OK...back to business! Taking her to the movies was a HUGE plus, or a 'love deposit' in your love bank, G. (first name basis now! ) That she went with you is a very good sign, believe it or not. My H resented being in the same building with me (our home included) for those first few months, so count yourself very fortunate.<P>I know about the wanting to explode during the Plan A phase. Remember, I told you itwas rough?? "Rough" isn't a strong enough word, but I can't think of one any stronger right now. But, this is OK. We are tough--we can DO this, just keep that thought in your mind.<P>As for faith, you only need faith as small as a mustard seed and God will do the rest. I love the way He sends signs, like the one you experienced!! So many amazing "coincidences" have happened to me during this walk through hell, that I have no choice but to give credit to God. To me, it PROVES He is real, and He is listening. You ae NOT alone in this once you invite Him in to help you. Keep that thought in mind, too, ok?<P>As for did our spouses or didn't they have an affair: I found out that while it can be devastating, it is NOT the end of the world. I chose to look at it as an opportunity to repair an ailing marriage, and to put wrongs right. Yeah, I know..thoughts of our loved ones with someone else are awful, BUT..they will not kill you. To focus on those thoughts does nothing but damage to the spirit, so don't focus on them. Focus on TODAY, and what you can achieve with your mate in the future. And, by all means focus on your love for your wife and it will shine through to her. <P>Don't worry about your visit with the counselor. Use the time to get rid of your worst feelings and thoughts, and let God handle it from there. He'll let you know what He wants you to know when you are ready to handle it. <P>You sound more up today than before, and this makes me smile! Just keep that forward momentum going--and the next time you visit the barn, bring a few plastic bags with you in case doggie decides to give you another present! Then, return it to the doggie's owner, saying "thanks but no thanks, I've had enough s*** to last me a lifetime!" (just teasing!!)<P>Hugs and smiles,<BR>Winny<P><BR>PS...<BR>Yep! Went for broke when I chose to do Plan A. Before I found out about it, I wanted to throw my H out on his ear!! Then, I figured, why not? things were bad enough as they were, so what could it hurt? So, I "went for broke" and tried it--thank God! W.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 09, 2001).]

Whoops! Board's over energetic Today! hope I got rid of the double post now.<P>While I'm at it and back here again, how are YOU doing, Alone?? Please let us know...W.<p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 09, 2001).]

Win,<BR>All I can say about yesterday is "love buster/withdrawals," <BR>one after another. You'd think after emotionally torturing <BR>ourselves, we'd learn not to do it anymore. Men are just <BR>thick headed! Yesterday was take two steps fwd and around <BR>ten back and today I'm lucky enough to be sitting in a room <BR>for 24hrs stewing over my thoughts....I'm gong cold turkey <BR>with plan A today, I'll just keep my feelings bent up or <BR>let my dogs hear me sulk. For some reason I keep reverting <BR>back to the OM thing. Every time we're together it has to <BR>come up...he's just a major part of her life at work I <BR>guess and I'm really jealous of the time they spend <BR>together at work...but I have to accept it, I work/interact <BR>with people also. Like I said before it's much easier to <BR>place blame on someone else due to my clouded <BR>misunderstanding of her feelings. Tomorrow I have the <BR>opportunity to stop by her "office," where we both feel <BR>high tension, so it has become an unpleasant place for me <BR>but I have an interest there. I promised myself I wouldn't <BR>say anything disrespectful to my W or to him...but then the <BR>devil popped up and I thought about telling the OM he was <BR>taking my wife without even knowing it...then I envisioned <BR>something bad happening...I'll just stick with Plan A. <P>"As for faith, you only need faith as small as a mustard <BR>seed and God will do the rest." So I sat down last night <BR>with my dog Luke and decided to read something from Luke, <BR>guess what my eyes found first??? Just what you wrote...I <BR>aced her to attend Church with me, we'll see. Our friends <BR>are pushing the Christian route, any suggestions? All I <BR>know is, lets get her feeling like we can resolve "us." <BR>She is basically sitting around waiting for her feelings to <BR>change, we both know that isn't the way it's going to <BR>happen.....Plan A, tough, must get through, ugh! <P>Have a great day, bring a carrot down to your horse friends.<BR>GFB

Hiya, GFB!<P>Got a quick question for you: who brings up the OM's name first...and in what context? I am guessing it is your W, and of course it plucks your nerves! But..seeing as how he is a part of your business, I'm sure his name does come up now and then. The key here is HOW is he mentioned. Does she go on, non-stop, about him? Or is it just a quick reference to something concerning the horses or business? If she goes on non-stop, or in any way other than professional, this would be a good chance to look at her with all the love you for her you can muster up in your eyes, and say something like, "Hon, I'm sorry, but everytime you go on about X like this, it really hurts me. Maybe you are not doing it intentionally, but it hurts me just the same." Then, keep quiet. See what she says or what her reaction is. You see, you are telling her how her actions make you feel, without accusing her of anything (except poor judgement in considering your feelings). If she has a heart at all, and I'm sure she does, this will touch her. You see, women communicate best by talking about feelings. Men are better at factual, problem-solving talk. But, when you start gently guiding her into thinkging about, and talking about, feelings (yours included), this is sure to get a response. Believe it or not, it works the other way around, too! I tried this technique on my H and it worked wonders. You'd be surprised how sometimes a negative like this (talk concening the OM) can be turned around to create an opening..that open door I was talking about in another post. <P>As for Christian ethics, just keep in mind that Jesus had ONE command only, to love one another as He loves us. Your heart is already filled with love for your W, so please do try to pray for a release from the anger, jealousy and hatred you feel for the OM. What you feel towards him is only natural, but Jesus prefers that we pray for these other persons. That does NOT mean to let them walk all over us or abuse our marriages or situations. But, it does mean to not do anything in haste or anger towards them--pray about this to God, and He will show you how to act. As hard as it is for us to beleive this sometimes, remember that they are God's children, too, and He loves them just as much as He loves us. Just pray for them (as in, "Lord, please! Turn this sinner around!") and leave them up to God. Concentrate on love for your W, and love for yourself and you will be doing just what Jesus asked.<P>Exactly 24 hours after I prayed with all of my strength and soul to God to show me the truth, I found a letter written by the OW to my husband. This, after about 3 months of sheer torture, and suffering the most hateful behavior on my H's part that anyone could ever endure. All it proved was that 'someone' was in love with my H, and I had the proof in black and white, right in my hands. My first ANGRY thought was to contact her and literally rip her throat out! (figuratively speaking..sort of). But, something made me do nothing towards her. Something told me that if I went to her and let her know what I found out, she would then hold all of the cards and have power over me. After coming to this site and reading countless letters on this, I saw that I was exactly right in holding off. I'm going to continue at some other time telling you more about how I solved my problem, but right now, this letter is already longer than I anticipated! <P>Just go to the barn or stable, whichever you call it, and let your LOVE for your W shine in your eyes. Treat the OM like exactly what is he: an employee. No better, no worse. <P>A while back, someone told me to always behave like a duck. Remain cool and unruffled on the surface, but paddle like hell underneath! You can do this, GFB! Your Christian friends and I are all praying for you and your situation, and God WILL answer! (btw, I am also Christian).<P>Hugs and prayers,<BR>Winny <P>Thanks for the tip! Carrots are good, and they seem to like apples, too! What's your opinion on giving them sugar cubes? I haven't done this yet bec. I'm not sure it's so good for them. W.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 10, 2001).]

Winny,<BR>Who brings up the OM?? Well it's a combination, I ask her why she spends all day at the office, she responds with "I'm cleaning stuff up," well what's she meant to say and finally has said, she's helping him clean stuff up and exercise horses. Which is fine, but she lied about what she was doing in the first place...another instance(which has become a regular) he has a busy evening on Saturday at the track and he asked her to help him....so now she'll be out all day, first at work with him then at the track with him and so on. Now mind you she begins her day at the office around 7am, the racing begins around 8-9pm. There is a mess of preparation, commuting and it does get hectic with back to back races, but who knows what else knows what going on. It's the amount of time she is spending with him that doesn't add up...So it's merely myself that keeps bringing him up in a bad tone, she only speaks of work when referring to him. W just keeps insisting it's not anyone else, her feelings have just changed so much for me. It's totally confusing to the male perspective I guess??<BR>I've read about Judgment in my Battlefield book, who are we to judge?? So I need to stop that also, Saturday will just be a brief encounter between her and due to our tension(W and I). I'll get to pet my horse and tell him he's doing so well, hop in the truck and head out...the OM will not even think twice about me being there or leaving early, so maybe nothing is going on....at least in his mind. I'll just chalk up today (Friday) and tomorrow as non withdrawal days due to the lack of interaction between us.<P>Wife and I used to do everything together, it's very hard finding something to do without her...we don't have many friends in town either(newbies). Besides everyone else has a normal job. I work 24 hour shifts and have off for three days...Their is enough time in each day to build up a head of steam, and no way to vent it.<P>About the carrots or apples or sugar cubes...they're all good for the horses, but in moderation. Have you ever eaten a bag of baby carrots...much abdominal pain. You can treat horses to "Whinny's Cookies," I can't remember where the source is but if you search on the net for horse cookies you'll find some. If really want to have some fun, grab a mineral block(salt block), it's neat watching the horses bite and lick it, but you have to hold it, experience their power and see the emotion and determination in their eyes...you can do this also by holding the carrot, make them bite off the piece they want.<P>Rain, Rain go away....and take the heat with ya.<BR>GFB

GFB,<BR>I hope you're not getting sick of hearing from me by now <grin!>, but I have another question for you. Before Mr. X came on the scene, how did you and your W manage or handle the horse race business? I mean, did the two of you handle all of the details together, or is this a new venture and one that you were not in on from the start? <P>I'm just wondering if this whole thing is new to the two of you (the horse, the racing end of things, etc.) or is this something you both did together before X came along.<P>You know what's odd?? My H and I are also "newbies" to our new city, having moved here last Fall. It has been torturous slow-going for me to get out and make new friends, and he is so bogged down with his job (computer systems) that it takes him away from me 6 out of 7 days a week. I know JUST what you mean about too much time alone, it purely stinks! It's a wonder that neither you nor I have "looked elsewhere"! I tell ya, the thought crossed my mind, but only for a brief instant. Then, I snapped out of it and realized that I love my H too much to ever hurt him like this. <P>As for your W denying any attachment to Mr X, please remember that almost 99.9% of WS's lie. It's a proven fact and seems to be a part of the whole scenario. To this very DAY, my H denies any emotional attachment whatsoever to Mrs X, but that is just being in denial. (nice word for "lie") <P>I guess some things in life are so intrinsically wrong that the "doer" of the deed (infidelity) cannot and will not own up to it. It would be too painful for the WS to face the truth him/herself. For the truth is that ALL affairs are built on lies and deceit, be they emotional A's or PA's.<P>Thanks for the advice on the horse snacks! I'm going to go look up the recipe for the cookies on the web. <P>Stay strong...stay focused!<BR>Hugs...<BR>Winny

GFB.<P>I almost forgot...again! If you would like the URL for my support group's web site, please give me your email address and I'll send it to you. For privacy reasons, I choose to not post it here, but will send it to you if you ask me to.<P>bye again!<BR>W.

Win, Funny you should ask, "we" did everything together, including caring for the horses. But at the same we were in another section of the farm...now we're in a new barn...the only one left, smack next the OM. My W also had a second job, "we" decided it be best for her to pursue this business with a full head of steam. In turn this is her only time away from me, which we all need time away, I think they call it down time. <P>Her mother just says happy couples don't "look," unhappy ones do(divorce attorney, who loves me like her own son)...Her mother isn't taking sides but she thinks maybe we weren't made for each other and we could only be happy apart, who knows at this point. All of our pictures tell a different tale! I'm focusing on Plan A for the next ??? how long. I guess my W telling herself this relationship isn't right and her mother and friends telling her the same is her motivation twds separation. She is one of those people who is very hard to convince, but once she is...she is!<P>My E-mail addy is m_jg_2001@yahoo.com (note the underscore_)<BR>Thanks for replying again, gotta get back to the box!<BR>G

Hi, GFB<BR>So, how did it go on Saturday? Hopefully it wasn't too bad for you, but I can imagine how you must have felt.<P>I feel bad for you, G. It sounds as if your W has a lot of people convinced that she is unhappy in your marriage and they are buying into it. As for your MIL, her answer sounds very cut and dry, and maybe she knows more than she is telling you. Just a thought, there. <P>All you can do at this point is just keep on Plan A'ing. I KNOW how hard it is! I stll have bad days, too, when I wonder if I'm doing the right thing. My H has stepped all over my feelings so badly that it's a wonder I still feel anything at all for him. I bet you feel that way, too, at times.<P><BR>Tomorrow is our anniversary. He hasn't said one word about it yet to me, but he DID cancel other plans (work-related) this weekend to come home and spend time with me. I am just so confused right now!! It was one year ago right now that I found out how unhappy he was in our marriage. Nice "anniversary" gift, eh? My nerves are a little shot which is why I haven't written in a few days. <P>Believe me, GFB, I know straight from the heart how hard all of this is on us BS's. Part of me is praying that he at least mentions our wedding anniversary to me tomorrow, and part of me is hoping he doesn't. Why? Because it is very hard to do what you know you have to do when sentimental feelings get in the way. Although we are getting along worlds better than a few months ago, things are still not at an "all clear" stage. ]<P>Time. Patience. Prayer. Strength. Wow....no wonder our bodies go out of whack! I don't know about you, but I am still having trouble sleeping.<P>Hope to hear back from you about this past w/e.<P>Hugs,<BR>Winny<p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 13, 2001).]

<BR>Happy Anniversary Win, Like either of us are very happy at the moment. I'm sure your H will acknowledge "today," though I don't know either of you, so I couldn't guess what he's going to do...maybe you'll get lucky??? *laugh* (high school days) <P>As for myself, Friday I worked my 24hr shift, Saturday I didn't have the opportunity to see her except for a brief moment (which resulted in a love buster moment but started out good) on my way home she was penciled in to help this OM at the race track. My MIL also came out for the day which was a huge comfort for me!!! Sunday, after mom left (she played moderator for a bit and they convinced me nothing was going on between my W and the OM) W and I spent from noon on together....around 6pm we began talking...until around midnight. But the only thing positive that really came out of it was she'll "stay and try but if it doesn't change would I accept a divorce." Of course I said "no" then mentioned the word "contested," for some reason she began crying afterward, I can only see her urge to be free. I told her if she is going to "stay" to see if anything change she has to make an "attempt" to change/expand positively how she feels about us. The therapist, MIL and my Wife have all expressed that in the past it didn't seem as if I was placing my W number "1" there was always something else..i.e., work. Now that I see maybe that is what happened. I want the opportunity to show her she is number one. Consciously I never placed anyone before her but somehow it ended up that way I guess...it's what they perceive.<P>I went to my first Church of Christ session on Sunday. Tear jerker?? Yes! I felt like the pastor/preacher?? was directing the entire sermon at me...(he began at the "Truly, Truly" paragraph in John??) he spoke about letting go to extreme sadness to wrong decisions to joy and then they sang about a ship at sea, anchored in a rough storm and whether or not the anchor would hold through the storm....boy, I was there for around thirty minutes then went and cried for over an hour. My W isn't in the Church mood, but if you knew me, going to church would be the last place you'd expect me! I wish she would "TRY..."<P>These times are emotionally taxing and I guess (as the saying go's) were sent to try our souls. I need someone to tell me how to do this, everything I do generates a negative response from the W. If I wasn't as affectionate before, if I didn't seem as if I placed her first(again, if you knew me this doesn't sound right), if I didn't understand her emotional needs...I don't want to change, let me expand my love. Who we are is who we are, we can't change but we can expand! <P>I hope you have a good day!<P>Shoot me an e-mail with your link, I'll shoot back a shot of our horse~<P>G<P><BR>

Hi, GFB!<P>My heart nearly broke for you when I read your last post. (until I got to the end. GREAT! what an ending!) Wow...do I ever know how it feels when your spouse looks you in the eye and says "I think I'm going for the divorce." At the risk of sounding redundant, I've been there, done that, too, but am happy to tell you that all is STILL not lost!<P>It's good that you two talked for six hours. Sure...lots of things were said that you wished weren't, but it's a good beginning of honest communication. Your W is telling you that she feels she wasn't your first concern, that something always came ahead of her. You both seem to think that it was/is your job. I can relate to that, too, being married to a workaholic/over-achiever. One day it hit me that if my H didn't work so hard, or so much, I wouldn't have the things that he gave to me over the years. Most are things I never asked for, but he was happy to give them to me and I was very appreciative of them. He never caught on to the fact that I would have preferred to have him spend time with me instead of spend his money on me. But, with a huge grain of salt, I accepted and realized that this is his nature...period. Your W is not at that place yet, GFB. She hasn't caught on to the fact that YOUR way of showing her love is to give her things and provide a good life for her. It is a need that you have, much like my H, and while you and he think you are doing the 'right' thing, we W's are aching for more of your company. This is something you both should really talk about because I think it is a valuable key to your problems. You need to strike a healthier compromise, just like my H and I have done. One day, I'll go into more detail about what nearly derailed our M, but it had to do with this very thing.<P>As for your experience at church...hooray!! You had a very powerful spiritual release; your inner you had a chance to 'let it all out,' and give it over to God. Keep this up, GFB. Getting in touch with your spiritual self is such an important step. We humans are much, much more than skin and bone and mentality. We are also spiritual beings, one with God, and when we hurt, He hurts for us, too. Asking HIm to come into your life and to help you will make a huge difference in your life. He will grant you an inner peace you never knew existed! And, once you feel that peace, things will start to fall into place like a big jigsaw puzzle getting done. It is when we are at our lowest that we literally have no one else to turn to except for God, and He is there for us. <P>Keep praying, keep on talking to your W and most of all LISTEN to what she says. Ask her if she would be willing to be willing to make your M work. Don't try to pressure her into anything--just ask her that question. Where did I get that from? From a healing service at my church! I was asked by my priest if I would be willing to be willing to forgive someone who had hurt me. I said, "Sure, why not?' Although I didn't really feel like forgiving that person at that time, I admitted that I was willing to be willing to forgive. Two days later, that person and I had a beautiful reconciliation, and we remain good friends to this day. Once your W sees the change in YOU from your getting closer to God, she will start to open up to the possibilities of 'being willing to be willing' to make your marriage work.<P>By the way...my prayers were answered today!! My H called me not once but twice just to touch base with me and wish me a happy anniversary! We talked on the phone until he was out of range (God bless cell phones that poop out on us!! grr!), and although many miles separated us, we were one in thought and spirit. <big smile!> It was more than I had hoped for and I am convinced that if it were not for turning this whole mess over to God and relying on His help, it would not have happened. We are still together--halleluja!--and hope still springs eternal in my heart.<P>OK..nuff from me for now. I sent you the URL to my website, hope you find it useful!<P>God bless and sending you prayers and hugs,<BR>Winny <P>PS..<BR>many thanks for the anniversary wish!

Winny,<P>Wow, this topic is becoming longer by the minute and it's just us...I hope Alone is still making headway, and I apologize if I stole is His Thunder on this board.<P>Yesterday was a plus for you, if I interpret correctly?? Thanks for the sympothy...it's quite different from someone telling you when compared to writing it... I can always go back and reassure myself<P>So far today I have to think about my W wanting to go on a "mini vacation," alone, near our horses, she want's to think-do-say-feel nothing at all. I know at the moment I can suffice...but when the time comes, will I be able to????????????? The devil just has an incredible stronghold on my brain, I can't help to think our relationship is going to end...infidelity...and so forth. Last night at work I read about looking with your soul and not just with your eyes. Maybe I'm just seeing things from a jealous mans <BR>perspective...who knows??<P>Today I made it a point to meet her for breakfast and I managed to get out of there with out shoving my foot in my mouth...but I know what is coming later. So, I hope i can continue on a positive track today though when she comes home she's going to give me her lowdown on contesting a divorce...She views it as having the court make someone stay who doesn't want to....<P>Our 5th (7+yrs together) anniversary is in April, for the past year or so I've considered renewing our vows or getting married again, though this time we'll have a larger wedding (JP for our first). I've looked in NJ for some really nice places, right next to our Training facility...Unfortunately you have to plan in advance, this is the heart breaker...<P>Ok, Win(when I don't think aout you name in conjunction with horses...I almost WinNT...I was in the puter field for a bit networking but as you know once you get stepped on so many times, it's not fun anymore) I have to prepare for my [censored] reeming...I hope I can mantain composure.<P>Have another very fine, sunny day. Did you get any sugar cubes?? When you do those horses are <BR>going to be your best friends all over again....wait, is that all it takes?? I'm off to the store. LOL<P>GFB

Have you ever heard the saying, I feel like I've been shot at and missed, **** at and hit?<P>Just as I assumed, last night became the worst evening yet. My W is not willing to find her feelings in "Us" again. She doesn't think it's possible. So we had a very spiteful argument concerning divorce, she said she'll file this coming week. At our conclusion, I only asked her to think long and hard before submitting any paperwork. Not for the fact of how spiteful I'm going to be, but because I want her to think of how we can expand and be happy...but she is not happy and doesn't want to live with someone who makes her unhappy. I've made the bed, now i have to layin it.<P>I never thought I'd ask my parents for anything again but I'm going to head to their home (n. of phila)for the evening..it's funny it took 28 yrs for me to ask for their help...though I despise them, I need someone... It seems I grew up in poor environment, being unhappy, so I can relate with my W..I guess. I lived 18 unhappy yrs in Pennsylvania, moved away and became happy, now we're back and it's ultimately destroyed my life(for the time being as I'm told). I know i didn't fall in love over night and will not fall out of love over night..there is still plenty more hurt down the road for me but there is also resolution, I <BR>hope. <P>And regarding this other man, I though about it the other day and for some reason when I opened my book "Think with your soul not with you eyes" section stared me in the face!<P>Maybe I do need some antidepressants, I feel horrible. But how does this look on a Police Department Appl? They'll consider me too unstable.<P>Take it easy Winny!

And regarding this other man, I though about it the other day and for some reason when I opened my book "Think with your soul not with you eyes" section stared me in the face!<P>Maybe I do need some antidepressants, I feel horrible. But how does this look on a Police Department Appl? They'll consider me too unstable.<P>Take it easy Winny![/B][/QUOTE]<P><BR>GFB,<BR>Well, your W drew the line in the sand, didn't she? My heart goes out to you, as you know it must by this time, and I still say that all is not lost. Just keep on praying and most of all TAKE CARE OF *YOU*. Now is the perfect time to turn to family, friends, a counselor, your minister--get a support system in place for yourself. Trust me in this one, you will not regret doing so. Also, keep in mind that your W is most likely definitely "in the fog", and it sounds to me like she has a little bit of security going there. That is, someone waiting in the wings for her. VERY few people strike out on their own for the h*** of it, with no one waiting for them to hold their hand, coddle them and assure them they will not be alone. Am I right here or what? You know I am, instinctively. <P>So, where do you go from here? You take care of YOUR needs right now, clear your mind as best as you can. I don't know how to answer you on the anti-d med's and job application question. Personally, I have never taken any of those med's and relied on sheer inner strength and LOTS and lots of prayer and meditation. Also, having an ally helped me a lot (my mom, who lives with us), more than I can say. I also got myself into a dynamite exercise program at our local YMCA (it's co-ed), and that has been like a lifeline for me.<P>The point is, do things that YOU like to do, or things that are good for you to do. Keep your mind occupied and off the situation as much as possible (true, it's very hard, but even a moment or two respite here and there adds up!).<P>She wants to "fly on her own"? Well, let her. Also, while you're at it, now would be a GREAT time to get some proof of an EA or PA. Start searching (look thru your garbage cans! they hold tons of possible clues). If you could only catch them on film ( have a friend stop by the barn w/ a camera), that would be peachy, in the event of a real court battle. Depending on the state you live in (I live in PA), adultery is not looked upon kindly by the courts and can make a huge difference in the settlement outcome.<P>By all means, get yourself a good lawyer and just go in and ask about your rights in your state. If need be, hire him as your divorce atty., but don't neglect this important step. As soon as my H found out I went to one, it stopped him dead in his tracks! Suddenly, his "I want to be on my own again...I'm unhappy in our marriage" and all of that flew right out the window. It's amazing what taking a real positive step for your protection can do in a situation like this.<P>Above all, do not lose faith. No matter which way it turns out from here, God is still in control. Perhaps He has someone better for you down the road, because what your W is doing to you is heartless and very cruel. Would you really want to spend the rest of your life with someone like that? Just think on these things and look with your soul, like you said.<P>I'm praying for you!!!<BR>Winny<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 16, 2001).]

Win~<BR>Yep she drew the line all right then I crossed it again, LOL. I wish I knew how to take care of me, <BR>for the last few yrs of my life it been "us." I no longer have things "I" like to do, it's what we did <BR>obviously to push us apart. We're in separate beds now, she just did "her" laundry...<P>Today I'm going to make an appt. to speak with an attorney. As for worrying about the settlement, <BR>all she wants is the horse and truck and what ever she brought into the relationship. Now our house <BR>we built from ground up, I can't live here any longer...we stained our furniture together, I can't even <BR>sleep in our bed, sit in our living room or look at anything here for that matter except fr these divorce <BR>request forms. The chain saw will prevail, lol. I may go rent War of the Roses tonight, need some <BR>ideas.<P>I'm not loosing faith, I really wish she'd hold off on anything until she is finished school, get that load <BR>off her mind. But she is determined, like I mentioned before, nothing in her eyes but a anticipated <BR>satisfaction of splitting up. I found an old poem she wrote or found for me called "My Boyfriend." I <BR>left it sitting out, she didn't even touch it so i threw it away....<P>I guess I should read to and ask god to take this pain away at least for today.<P>Enjoy the day, and BTW I do live in PA and I really doubt anything is going on between her and the <BR>OM, but like I said "I doubt," not I'm sure. <P>M (akaGFB)<BR>

HI, M...<P>OK! You made it through "day 1". That's a good first step, believe it or not! I understand perfectly about being out of practice doing "I" things, and used to doing "us" things. Well....get to it, M! No time like the present, as they say. The sooner you start doing things for you, the quicker you will come out of shock (and yes, it is shock), and be able to process thoughts and feelings more accurately. Don't look backwards--look forwards, and keep your eye on the goal which is, ultimately, your peace of mind. One way or the other, you will know peace of mind again, although it may not feel like it at this time. Seeing a lawyer will give you peace of mind in the practical sense--you truly do need to know what your rights are.<P>Personally, it sounds to me like your W is very eager to leave your relationship, the key word being "eager." You do NOT sound like an ogre to me, or someone who is abusive or mean, so I would have to wonder what her rush is. Really, though, don't concern yourself too much with this thought because it's like spinning wheels in the mud. It just isn't going to get you anywhere any faster. <P>As for your house, I understand that feeling,too, but please, don't do anything in haste at this time (like put it on the market), ok? Give yourself some time to calm down a bit, to move further out of the shock you are in, before you make any other major life's decisions. The most important thing you CAN do at this time is to make sure YOU are ok. If you feel like going out for a drive, do it. Want to go out for a meal, do that, too. You do not have to tell her where you are going or why, let her wonder for a change. This may sound petty and un-MB, but really, I don't think it is. If she wants to separate, let her feel what that means starting from today. <P>As you grow stronger, you will feel much better, M. Just always remember that you are a worthwhile person, and your W not loving you does not change that one bit. This is HER problem, which has now become your problem, but I believe that all problems are solvable, one way or the other.<P>As for leaving little romantic things around (your poem), I'd stop that, too. You are only lining yourself up for more hurt, and that is not 'being kind to yourself.' See what I mean? Just do things that will mean positive outcomes right now in your life, because you sure do have a pile full of the negative on your plate. <P>Yes, the pain will get less as the days go by. It won't seem that way at first, but it really does happen. There are a whole LOT of emotions and feelings going on inside of you right now, and it takes time to get them all sorted out. <P>You still doubt your W has a thing going on with the OM. Fine. If that helps you to keep your head on straight right now, then ok. But, I want to caution you that IF the opposite is true, you could be in for yet another shock to your system. Just Please..keep your eyes and ears open and most of all, your mind open. <P>You know, I found out from my own experience w/my H that the worst thing that can happen to a WS is to be found out. That changes the complexion of everything, from the exhileration of the fog right down to wondering if the OP is really worth it all. So, I'm trying to tell you that IF your W is indeed having an affair, it would be in your best interest to find out for once and for all if it's true or not. Just rememeber that TRUTH is a very powerful force, M. Once truth is out in the open, great things can happen. If truth is constantly hidden in the dark, only darkness and all of its ugly and painful emotions and feelings will surround you. <P>Still praying for you....hang in there!<BR>Winny<p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited August 17, 2001).]

My God Winny, it's so hard to maintain composure. Yesterday we had a big ol' argument, W went to a hotel last night only told her mother where she was. I found out but went to the wrong hotel this morning, just wanted to see if I recognized any cars other than ours...I mean hers as of now. She also keeps pushing the division of property on me. I can't even eat without her shoving this issue down my throat. <P>As for her eagerness, she just says that she's drained and doesn't feel anything for me...not at all. Like I mentioned before, my lack of attention(laugh) caused her feeling to plummet. We're at each other's throats every second...I can't simply accept the fact this is happening and she is just getting to the point of disgust. I don't think she wants to be in the same building! <P>Monday is the day, W will submit paper work, it should be fun receiving that shi* in the mail. I don't think I'm going to contest, why should I? Though I will seek an attorney's advice, for my own rights. <P>As for our house, I can't stand it anymore. Decisions made in anger are not the best, but I can't see myself staying there. Like I said "WE" built it, choose the tile and trim. There is just too much of us there...<BR>I'll do my best to figure out if OM is involved. Though she insists there is nothing, a month or two down the road when they're together...I'll hate myself for trusting her! <P>M<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Goinforbroke (edited August 18, 2001).]