I hope that I am posting in the right location. My situation is this, My wife and I have been married for 3 years. It is the second marriage for both of us. She has a child from another marriage living with us, I have a child that does not live with us. We have no children between us. We have a conflict about the girls night out thing. I believe that married indivuduals do not belong in the bar without their spouse. I dont have a problem with going to her friends houses for jewelry or other parties, but it upsets me when the night ends with them going to the bar after, or one of her friends picking her up to go to the bar after and leaving me at home with the kid. I do not go to the bars without her and feel the she shouldnt either. She feels that it is okay, and I shouldnt have a problem with it. The problem is that I do have a problem with it. She has told me that I am not her father. She has even threatened me with separation and divorce, and gets real mad if I even mention how much I dislike it. I believe that nothing good can come from a married individual going to the bar without the other. I have been searching this entire website for information similar to my situation, but have not found anything close. All that I have found is info on affairs. She has not had an affair or anything like that. I am very uncomfortable about the bar thing. I have even printed the principles from this website and tried to get her to read them to no avail. What should I do? Should I let her do her thing? Should I keep telling her that it is upsetting to me? Should I go to allanon? Am I a co-dependent for always worrying about her being happy? At what point do I give up and worry about myself. I dont want to be the only one concerned about this. I just dont know what to do anymore. I am a firm believer in the institution of marriage and do not want or need another divorce in my life. I always hear the words "where are all of the good men at". I would just like some other thoughts on this subject.

You are not wrong about your viewpoint. About a year ago there was a man on this board who is a manager of a bar. He told how he constantly saw married people without their spouses at his bar/nightclub get into inappropriate situations due to drinking and the entire atmosphere people meeting different people. He advised strongly that married people should not go to these places in the evening without their spouses because it so often leads to trouble down the line.
It is typical for the wife to say that you are controlling which justifies her actions. There is nothing wrong going out to a resturant with the girls for dinner but going out to bars in the evening is generally not good. How do you think she would feel if you constantly when out to single bars in the evening with your male friends. I bet she would not like it one bit.<p>I would suggest counseling but it seems like your wife feels it is your problem. The bottom line is married people should not be hanging out in bars in the evening without their spouse. I guarantee you down the line you will eventually have more serious problems with her behavior in the future. Since she has already talked about separation and divorce; the chances are pretty good that this behavior of hers will lead to those things. I think you may need to prepare for those options. I wish you luck.

Thank you for the post Bryanp. I didn't think that I have a problem about this but, when you mention it to the spouse and she then gets mad and says that everyone elses husband lets them do it, you begin to think it is a problem with me. I can remember when I was a kid, that the men would behave in this matter. It is amazing how the tables have turned. I would like to hear some other opinions on this, especially from a womans point of view.

I don't think it can be healthy at all for married couples to often separately visit bars without their spouse. Once in a great, great while, perhaps. But on a consistent basis and with an attitude that it is "her right" -- no way! What would bother me more is the 'attitude' that she will do it, no matter what and seemingly dares you to make an issue or take a stand on it. It really doesn't matter if the place is a bar, a restaurant, a baseball game, a swimming pool, whatever. If she is constantly leaving her spouse (and family) out of the picture, than it is pure selfishness and a total disregard for your feelings and the glue that holds a marriage and family together. Is she deriving some sort of extra or special attention while at these bars that is boosting a deflated/bruised/low/etc ego, or something that she may feel she is not getting from you/home? <p>I have a situation somewhat vaguely similar. My H had a severe 'heavy' drinking problem. I would say functional alcoholic. He refused to see the problem, hear about it, discuss it, acknowledge it, etc., and staunchly stood his ground and told me that he didn't have a problem with alcohol, I did. I fought this for years and years and finally a few months ago, decided to take it on as my problem. As I removed myself and two children from the home, I told him I was allieviating "my problem" with alcohol -- and looked forward to living without alcohol in my life and home. This step has been a huge eye-opener for all of us, and very liberating for me!! He has acknowledged "his alcohol problem," has quit drinking, and we are currently working toward possible reunitment.... we'll see. But, I have also found a very peaceful and content happiness on my own and am not being "forced" to accept what I considered unacceptable. I now have free will and choices.<p>So, you see, I truly believe if one spouse says soemthing is a problem (regardless of what that something is).... it is a problem to the entire relationship and needs to be addressed and corrected somehow seriously either by you alone, by you both as a couple, or by her alone.

If she knows that you are bothered by her going to bars than she should stop. Whether or not anything is going to happen is not the point. You do it because you respect the feelings of the person that you are suppose to love. Her threats to divorce you over this shows that she is self centered and does not care about you. I would recommend that you try to go for marriage counselling. I have the feeling that the issue of "bars" is only a symptom of something broken in your marriage.

Whatnow,<p>This is not good. My W went to a bar with chat room friends one evening . These were women she used to meet for lunch once a week in person.<p>Little did I know there were some men (term used loosly) there as well.<p>One thing led to another and to make a long story short, we are getting a divorce. <p>BAD, BAD, Idea<p>Mike

You are all a great group of people. For the last couple of months I thought that I was wrong about the bar thing, and that it was normal. Now that I am getting some opinions from others, I am gaining a whole new perspective on this. As far as me being a good husband goes, I always do what she wants to do as far as activities go, and on occasion we do what I would like to do. I also take care of her and her child. I treat the child as my own and try to always have regards for the wifes feelings. I just dont know what the big attraction is with the bar. I personally have never liked going to the bar too much. They are usually too loud, too much smoke, too dark, too crowded, and too expensive. Not to mention the groups of guys that come in just to scan for woman, and they dont care if the woman are married or not. And with the current non-tolerence for drunk driving, too much risk. I usually just go to make the wife happy. I would prefer to either invite close friends to our home or go visiting at their home. Maybe I am just too old fasioned or out of touch with the times. I would also prefer to have friends that are couples, and no singles. I am glad that I found this web sight. all of your opinions and maore are a great help to me.

What Now,
Please keep reading the MB principles! This issue is not just about going to bars, it's about respect. From my experience, a married woman going to bars with her girlfriends is POISON! My husband was at a bar with his "buddies" and a married woman flirted with him and asked him to dance. You can guess the rest of the story, it involved alcohol, sex and lies! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>We are in recovery, but some of the conditions that we BOTH agreed to were no alcohol anytime, anywhere unless we are together. No going to bars (he's a pilot and the crew usually goes to hang out at the hotel together) I watched 2 female neighbors get into the "girls night out" scene and both have divorced their husbands. You are NOT overreacting!<p>This issue is not going to go away, and you are not wrong to be concerned. Get the book "His Needs, Her Needs" and read it, then ask her to read it. This will help you understand where this relationship needs to improve and how to do it. Good luck!

Another thought, this board does not get much action, I would suggest that you post on Emotional Needs, everyone there seems to spend a lot of time helping each other.

wow, I truly feel the same way. My husband goes out every Thursday for guys happy hour. I do not feel this is a good thing for a marriage. It has caused huge issues ( see my posting in emotions :last chance [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] However, the more I told him I did not like it, the more he went and the later he stayed out. I do not think he has cheated, however I know that one day he will get in a situation that will get him in trouble. Unfortunalty due to our other problems we may not have to ever worry about his boys nights out.

I am glad see all of these replys, but after this mornings major LB festival the bar issue seems irrelivent or trivial. The wife dosn't work in the summer, but I still need to get up for work in the morning. Well she gets mad because I get my clothes from the bedroom and get ready for work and wake her up. I try to be quiet, but it is impossible to be totally quiet. I told her that she should be glad that I get up and go to work every day and that I should be respected for that. Also, I told her that because I go to work every day, that it enables her to not work in the summer and be with her son. I shouldnt be *****ed at because I am getting ready to go to work.(It takes me about a half an hour and im gone) I think that part of the problem is the fact that she grew up as a spoiled brat and for her it is easier to walk away than work at something. Well, the outcome from today is I was once again threatened with separation and divorce. Finally, I told her to quit threatening me and do it, and things got loud. I wish I would have acted differently but, some times she can be so stuborn that it just pushes my buttons. I wish I had the ability to go back in time. I dont know what to do. Sorry to ranting. I just need to vent. I hope things get better. Im still trying.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by whatnow?:
<strong>I hope that I am posting in the right location. My situation is this, My wife and I have been married for 3 years. It is the second marriage for both of us. She has a child from another marriage living with us, I have a child that does not live with us. We have no children between us. We have a conflict about the girls night out thing. I believe that married indivuduals do not belong in the bar without their spouse. I dont have a problem with going to her friends houses for jewelry or other parties, but it upsets me when the night ends with them going to the bar after, or one of her friends picking her up to go to the bar after and leaving me at home with the kid. I do not go to the bars without her and feel the she shouldnt either. She feels that it is okay, and I shouldnt have a problem with it. The problem is that I do have a problem with it. She has told me that I am not her father. She has even threatened me with separation and divorce, and gets real mad if I even mention how much I dislike it. I believe that nothing good can come from a married individual going to the bar without the other. I have been searching this entire website for information similar to my situation, but have not found anything close. All that I have found is info on affairs. She has not had an affair or anything like that. I am very uncomfortable about the bar thing. I have even printed the principles from this website and tried to get her to read them to no avail. What should I do? Should I let her do her thing? Should I keep telling her that it is upsetting to me? Should I go to allanon? Am I a co-dependent for always worrying about her being happy? At what point do I give up and worry about myself. I dont want to be the only one concerned about this. I just dont know what to do anymore. I am a firm believer in the institution of marriage and do not want or need another divorce in my life. I always hear the words "where are all of the good men at". I would just like some other thoughts on this subject.</strong><hr></blockquote>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by whatnow?:
<strong>I hope that I am posting in the right location. My situation is this, My wife and I have been married for 3 years. It is the second marriage for both of us. She has a child from another marriage living with us, I have a child that does not live with us. We have no children between us. We have a conflict about the girls night out thing. I believe that married indivuduals do not belong in the bar without their spouse. I dont have a problem with going to her friends houses for jewelry or other parties, but it upsets me when the night ends with them going to the bar after, or one of her friends picking her up to go to the bar after and leaving me at home with the kid. I do not go to the bars without her and feel the she shouldnt either. She feels that it is okay, and I shouldnt have a problem with it. The problem is that I do have a problem with it. She has told me that I am not her father. She has even threatened me with separation and divorce, and gets real mad if I even mention how much I dislike it. I believe that nothing good can come from a married individual going to the bar without the other. I have been searching this entire website for information similar to my situation, but have not found anything close. All that I have found is info on affairs. She has not had an affair or anything like that. I am very uncomfortable about the bar thing. I have even printed the principles from this website and tried to get her to read them to no avail. What should I do? Should I let her do her thing? Should I keep telling her that it is upsetting to me? Should I go to allanon? Am I a co-dependent for always worrying about her being happy? At what point do I give up and worry about myself. I dont want to be the only one concerned about this. I just dont know what to do anymore. I am a firm believer in the institution of marriage and do not want or need another divorce in my life. I always hear the words "where are all of the good men at". I would just like some other thoughts on this subject.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I know exactly what you are talking about!! My wife has a similar thing with an assistant pastor at our church. I have tried for the past 3 yrs to make a connection with this guy, every time I have tried to talk to this man he has to go or is too busy. Weird for an assistant pastor. Although, he does find time to call my wife and ask her to come over and help with things. EXAMPLE sorting his fireworks for his personal stand. Without hessitation she wants to go and thinks it's alright. There are other things like this he has done and she says I worry too much about nothing. I have talked to the oastor and told him the problem. He says that the assistant pastor has little disernment and I should talk with him. Well, I did. He still doesn't cut the relationship!! We are in therapy and even our counsler tells her this is wrong. She thinks all men want to do is control their wives. I could use some of the same advice. WHAT TO DO?

Hello hatchethead, Just to let you know, whenever I let the wife know that the going out thing bothers me, she always makes it out to be me that is the problem. I have been reading alot on this site, and it has been a big help for me mentally. I just wish that there wer some magic that could be performed to change the way people think, but there isn't. so I guess we will all need to keep comunicating with one another instead for support. I hope that you will one day be able to resolve your issues before it is too late. All we can do is keep trying.

whatnow--<p>Hi. I've been posting here for a long while and our marriage is MUCH stronger now due to MB concepts. We had many issues and I can say from experience MB can help.<p>See if you can get your W to fill out the questionnaires with you. Tell her you realize both of you are unhappy right now, and both of you deserve to be happy! I think part of your problem is a communication issue (been there), and the other part is learning to negotiate respectfully (been there too!).<p>I think sometimes marriages need to go through a transitional period of change before reaching a good resolution on certain issues. There may be some room for compromise, at least while you are strengthening your communication skills and learning to relate to each other better. One technique we learn here at MB is "brainstorming." Identify a problem and then discuss it in a safe setting. Come up with all sorts of ideas, as many as you can, for dealing with the problem. You don't want your W going out to bars at all, and your W wants to go. So there's one problem. You could...go WITH her. Or, you could ask that she's home at a certain time and perhaps cut down on how many times she goes in a month. You could also do something for/with her if she agrees not to go out with the girls. Any thoughts on that? Maybe a "date night" for the two of you.<p>What need is she fulfilling? Is it that she likes to dance (recreational companionship)? Maybe she likes receiving the attention from flirty men (admiration). Maybe, she needs more help from you with the child and house (domestic support) and was escaping for awhile with her friends.<p>A little bit of planning on your part would aid in her complaints of being awakened when you are getting ready for work. Have your clothing ready the night before, and pick them up when you leave the bedroom. Dress in the bathroom or hallway. Just as she is not responding to your concerns about bar-hopping, you are not responding to her re morning prep. So a suggestion--start teaching her MB concepts by example. Stop offering excuses or judgemental rationalizations for why you cannot meet her need (to be less disrupted in the mornings), and consider her feelings. That's really what you're asking from her too, isn't it? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>No lovebusters. You get farther away from what you REALLY want each time you lovebust and you're not building her lovebank with deposits when you're just making withdrawals. A flagging relationship can't afford withdrawals without consistent major deposits! Start practicing the art of respectful persuasion instead.<p>[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: Lucks ]</p>

Hey, whatnow!

The most worrying thing in your letter, is the fact your wife assumes the ATTITUDE that you are "not her father", rather than merely disagree, or try to convince you, or appease you in some way.
Women, like men, need time out away from the spouse. I don't know if it should be in a bar, but that's a personal choice. I would work on the relationship itself, & not concentrate on the specifics of the bar, for instance. Why does it bother you that she goes? is your marriage at risk in other areas? This is the real crunch isn't it?
I wish you the best, try to broach the subject in a non-threatening way.....if the reaction is the same, I would seriously question her commitment to you & the relationship. If of course this is TOTALLY un-acceptable to you, you have a choice to make: I can tell you what mine would be....LEAVE.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by muzohead:
If of course this is TOTALLY un-acceptable to you, you have a choice to make: I can tell you what mine would be....LEAVE.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Leaving is an option, true. It's not very marriage building though. And, would leaving under these circumstances REALLY be your decision, muzohead? I've read some of your other posts!

To me, the subject is something that would eventually fall under a POJA...but I think this couple would benefit more by working on their communication issues first.

Thank you for all of the support. I am in agreement with Lucks about the communication but, it is hard when the other person is so stubborn that it blinds them. Leaving is not an option for me either. I did not re-marry, just to give up and call it quits. Even though I am divorced and remarried, I am still a believer in the idea of marriage. I also believe that marriage is a life long commitment to the spouse, myself, and God. I did not get married to be divorced again. The first divorce was enough for me. I hope that it made me a little bit wiser. At this point, I think that the alcahol is the major communication problem. When a person is drinking, they are not thinking in a normal frame of mind. I will keep plugging away though, even if it is only me doing the trying.

I just wanted to add one more thing, the reason that I come to MB is that I do not want to leave. I truly believe that things can change and all of the support that is here can help me get through this. And, I dont think that I can ever change my thinking about going to the martini bars, it is not proper for her or I to go without the other.

whatnow--

You say the alcohol may be the problem. How much drinking do you mean? You'd mentioned al-anon in your first post. I think support groups are great. You could always check it out and see what you think. Go a few times though, can't really assess how much you'll like it by just going once.

Remarriage for us too. I know what you mean about not giving up. We're even more determined this go-round to make things work. Personally, we don't rule out the possibility of another divorce (fact is we ARE obviously able to divorce, we've done it before), but we choose to simply not think that way. Actually, we were finally able to stop mentioning the subject of divorce or separating ENTIRELY when a fight starts brewing. T'was a POJA!

I'd like to ramble through some thoughts with you, as an exercise. Okay? You said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And, I dont think that I can ever change my thinking about going to the martini bars, it is not proper for her or I to go without the other.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is your feeling. It's very valid. Our feelings are very important and each of us have a right to HAVE our feelings and express them. Your W's feelings are very important too. Just as you'd like your W to understand your feelings, do you understand hers? I've learned the difference in actually agreeing with my H's feelings and understanding them. I think couples need to discuss issues enough to develop true empathy for each other's feelings...in a calm, safe setting...not a judgemental one filled with LBs. It's tough, but it CAN be done. One thing that helps is more listening and less talking to understand the other's point of view. Again, you don't have to agree with her feelings, but in order to work out problems we really do have to understand each other and be willing to resolve problems. That's a big part of MB.

Another helpful thing is developing the ability to look past symptoms of a problem and delve into what the roots might be. Talk to your W. Find out what she likes about going to bars and how the excursions make her feel. Ask her questions. Really listen to her answers and do not judge. Keep your tones light. Repeat back what she says and ask if your understanding is correct. Withhold any judgemental opinions while you learn to communicate with her. If anything, simply say "Ok, I think I'm understanding more. I don't feel that way myself, and I'd like to learn more about why you feel the way you do about it. I care very much about your feelings."

Frankly, I'm with you. I do not feel it is appropriate for married couples to hang at bars separately. But not everyone feels that way. Your W may have thought it was a good compromise, going to bars with her friends since you don't like the atmosphere. Rather a getting her needs met without bothering you. She's feeding her Taker. Sounds very selfish, doesn't it? BUT, it's very important. After all, each person has a Giver AND a Taker and balance is arrived at when both "sides" are appeased. Read up on that aspect.

The Giver & Taker
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_give.html

I'm gathering that the child is too young to leave alone and when your W leaves, you're the "babysitter?" Of course, you're not really the babysitter, you're the stepdad. But bear with me for a moment. You may wish to consider, uhm, having plans yourself one evening and being unavailable to babysit. Be very careful if you consider this stance and most certainly talk about it lots here in advance. I say be careful because it could backfire. How you explain it to your W would be important. You'd need to say something like although you'd much rather agree on things that make both of you happy, you've decided to go out yourself...you don't know what else to do--hint, hint, W, maybe everything should be agreed upon? (Hey, you could check out an al-non meeting while you're out.) Sometimes, it takes a rude awakening to get their attention. If she fusses that it's unfair, now she can't go because you're not watching the child, you can actually empathize with her feelings BECAUSE that's how you feel when she goes out and leaves you at home! Might be an eye-opening conversation.

Definitely hold off on that idea until you learn more about MBing, but reverse psychology worked real well with my H. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

My H didn't see anything wrong with the GUYS going out to bars, for sports coverage, beer and chicken wings, and some pool. He actually told me once that it's safe for guys to go but not for women...so HE could go sometimes and I shouldn't, unless I was with him. My jaw dropped to the floor with the perceived chauvinism. We were having a problem at the time in that I wanted to go out dancing. I wanted him to go with me but he worked most evenings and a dance bar was the last place he wanted to spend his nights off. My Taker rationalized okay, FINE, I'll go out with my/our friends sometimes, and I did. H didn't like it, not one bit. We had lots of talks and it took awhile to solve. Now, we have POJA'd that we go together IF we go (not very often), and if a special situation comes up we discuss it and decide how to handle it. We had much more success figuring it all out when using MB techniques.